What is the hierarchy of gaining entrance to a property after a 999 call?
Posted by PeaIcy760@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 48 comments
So an ambulance pulled up next to my neighbours house at speed. Banging on the door shining lights in and shouting through the letter box. They asked how well in new here which isn't very much tbh and they continued shouting a bit then started to loiter
Next a fire truck pulled up and after some harder banging whacked a ladder up against the window and shone the brightest torch ive ever seen in my life through some windows
Now they both seem to have left. My assumption would have been wait for the police who can presumabky kick a door in if they think it's a life and death situation. Do you think the firemen assessed as an empty flat or what? Seems all round strange to me
Specialist_Catch_800@reddit
Ambulance under common law can enter a property if there is a reasonable belief that doing so is necessary to save life or limb as this would be a defence to crimes or torts
Police can do so under Police and Criminal Evidence Act to save life or limb
Fire Service can do anything they reasonably believe necessary to deal with an emergency (s.44 fire and rescue services act)
Training and equipment wise, police and fire generally have methods of getting in, ambulance generally wouldn't
sar_tr@reddit
As the 4th emergency service, what about the AA? /s
anabsentfriend@reddit
I bet the Coastguard were pissed off about that.
ashyjay@reddit
Don't tell mountain rescue.
sar_tr@reddit
They were... Along with the RNLI, Mountain Rescue, Cave Rescue & Lowland Rescue. It's why the AA dropped that slogan.
audigex@reddit
Now I want to see the RNLI turn up with their hovercraft and a battering ram
Stunning_Sky_6229@reddit
WooHoo! Someone mentioned Lowland Rescue đ˛ đ it feels like you are a rare person.
twirling_daemon@reddit
Iâm not as clued up by a long stretch as you but by my understanding* youâre correct
Partner is a senior paramedic with around a decade on the trucks in London so gaining access was unfortunately, obviously a not uncommon issue. They CAN* gain entry if itâs reasonably suspected to be reasonable & beneficial, but they donât travel with relevant equipment to force access and often itâs either too late/inappropriate for them to need to be the first, or unsafe for them
Timely_Egg_6827@reddit
Police got into my Dad's house when he collapsed. They took the frame out. I think my sister authorised it as partial POA.
Mawrathion@reddit
Possibly made contact with the person and stood down.
Pretty sure the fire service can gain access to buildings
jrw1982@reddit
Firefighter here.
Yep we can. We often make access for ambulance or police if they fail to gain entry for whatever reason.
racsssss@reddit
Follow up question, if ambulance people saw a person incapacitated on the floor through the window are they allowed to start breaking down doors if they're able?
insomnimax_99@reddit
Yes.
The crimes that you normally would be committing by breaking into someoneâs house (criminal damage, burglary, etc) are written in such a way that they wouldnât apply to paramedics forcing entry to rescue someone.
silentsquirreluk@reddit
I could be wrong but I believe the law would also generally protect any member of the general public if you broke into their house in a reasonable way because you were trying to help someone in an emergency eg you could see someone collapsed on the floor through a window or hear someone shouting for help. Is anyone an expert and could confirm?
I seem to recall when my car got broken into there was some standard question the police had to ask me (which was bonkers in that situation but seemed to be to cover that sort of scenario) along the lines of "did you give someone permission to break in or would you have given them permission to break in given the circumstances".
audigex@reddit
Yeah, for *most* laws there's a general common law expectation that people can break the law in a reasonable and proportionate way, in order to save life or limb. Or, as you point out, if they reasonably believed the owner would have given permission to do so
Someone forgets their kid in a hot car? You can bet your arse you'd be fine to break a window and get them out on both counts (life and limb, and owner would have given permission)
Someone lying incapacitated on the floor that you've just seen collapse through the window? Almost certainly fine
A house on fire with nobody inside and you could break in and easily put it out? Yeah, probably fine, although it's a bit less clear cut than the life-and-limb exceptions
insomnimax_99@reddit
Yeah, those exceptions would basically apply to anyone.
The laws surrounding things like breaking into peopleâs homes are worded in ways that avoid criminalising it in cases when doing so is actually reasonable.
Eg, criminal damage has an exception for when the owner consents or when it would be reasonably foreseeable that the owner would consent to it. Thatâs probably why the police officers asked you those questions - to establish that this wasnât the case.
audigex@reddit
Yes, they're allowed
Technically anyone is "allowed" under common law - a reasonable belief that someone's life was in danger is an excuse against most crimes for taking reasonable and proportionate action.
Essentially the test is "Do I reasonably believe this person's life is in danger, and do I reasonably believe that they'd want me to break their door down/break the window to try and save their life?". And more importantly: "Do I think a jury of 12 reasonable people would agree?" (Apologies for overusing "reasonable", but it tends to be the correct word for this type of thing under UK law)
So you can't break in just because you haven't seen them for a few days, but if you can see them incapacitated on the floor then you almost certainly can, unless they're clearly beyond saving because they've accidentally decapitated themselves with their new chainsaw or something
aezy01@reddit
Yes of course. As are you and anyone else.
crescentmoonrising@reddit
I think legally yes, but they don't have the equipment so one person calls the fire service/police to help while somebody else checks to see if any of the neighbours have keys. A large part of any sort of emergency training is how to do things without also injuring yourself, and you will quite possibly do that trying to kick down a sturdy enough front door.
Heliotropolii_@reddit
We have a crowbar and a big set of bolt cutters, I've gained entry into 2 houses as ambulance crew so far, I've watched fire gain entry into an additional 2, and police have got us into 1 Never been any come back, all been justified.
crescentmoonrising@reddit
I didn't know that, but it makes sense.I think the thing I was reading about it was specifically thinking of battering rams.
twirling_daemon@reddit
Yes. But usually police will be there PDQ and better equipped. But yes, theyâre âallowedâ to
jrw1982@reddit
Yes but they often call us or police if there is no obvious easy access.
Typical-Newspaper409@reddit
Yes if they think there is threat to life or limb, which isn't hard to argue in those circumstances
conchobhar1919@reddit
Paramedic here.
If we arrive on scene and can see someone on the floor and unresponsive we can do pretty much anything to gain entry e.g smashing the door/windows to gain access.
If we have received a call to the address but nobody answers after trying everything reasonable like banging doors and asking neighbours then we ask for police/fire assistant. It's normally fire because they have nothing better to do. They'll try other low risk methods like upstairs windows. If however we decide its high risk of potential injury/illness then they'll force entry by either drilling the lock or using the big red key (battering ram) to smash the door down.
sprucay@reddit
Can we at least agree that HART are even more useless?
audigex@reddit
Handy if you need something pressure washing
UnacceptableUse@reddit
So if you're home alone and about to collapse try and do so in front of the window?
TheRealFriedel@reddit
Hey! We do have better things to do! All that tea isn't going to drink itself
Bulky_Dog_2954@reddit
And the darts wont play themselves
conchobhar1919@reddit
And those muscles aren't going to flex themselves!
Think-Image-9072@reddit
If they had reason or grounds to enter fire would have done so. Theyâd have left because there was no reason to enter. The grounds to enter to save life or limb are pretty wide, Iâve brought doors down for a slight smell and a small pile of unopened post before. They obviously had confirmation there was no reason to go in
CakesStolen@reddit
How often does it turn out to be a case where someone actually needs help?
Think-Image-9072@reddit
Iâd say in my 10 years, about 8 out of 10 times there was good reason to go in.
Shriven@reddit
The one time I've entered and it not been a dead body it was a very nearly dead body.
Phat-Lines@reddit
Just curious, in that situation with the smell and unopened post, do you first find out who and how many people live there? Do you check other windows to see if you can see anything? At what point do you make the decision to break the door down?
Think-Image-9072@reddit
If thereâs reason to believe someone may have died or be injured within then no, thereâs no investigation into the occupants first. We enter and ask questions after where there is a chance every second counts. Even if we suspect death, time is of the essence, as the cause of death is unknown and it could be a crime scene. (Ex police officer btw). However yes if there are accessible windows we will look whichever way we can whilst someone else is entering. If a window is open we would go in via that first to avoid unnecessary damage.
Spare_Scar_2935@reddit
As far as I recall , if there's no immediate threat to life or danger only 3 services are allowed to force their way into your home uninvited, the police, customs and excise and the gas man.
Sad-Grade6972@reddit
My friend's elderly neighbour managed to call for an ambulance as she was injured and incapacitated. The paramedics arrived fairly promptly, but the neighbour was unable to get to the door and there was no access. I'm unsure if they'd tried the fire service at that point, but there was an expected wait for police to arrive. My friend got a sledge hammer out of his van and smashed the door in. She was on the floor screaming in pain, it wasn't a dilemma!
Jacktheforkie@reddit
Generally theyâre all authorised to break in if itâs deemed necessary, for example ambulance crews responding to a person collapsed inside or fire brigade responding to a fire
MountainMuffin1980@reddit
Fire service can gain access 100%. But it's messy they'll avlod it if they can.
infinit100@reddit
Fire service got into my mumâs house, no mess at all and made sure it was secure again after
jrw1982@reddit
We dont make a mess we dont need to.
whodunnit20@reddit
If an ambulance has arrived at the address then someone had to have phoned them, I would have thought the phone call would have been from inside.
In the U.K. the paramedics can look to see if a door or window is open and enter, but they are normally advised not to enter till the police arrive.
I have watched many true life shows one of which is called Ambulance, on the show the paramedics are normally told to wait for backup if no one is answering as you donât know what danger is in the house.
Fire Brigade can enter by smashing a door to get in but if everyone left the scene, it could be a prank phone call.
Badgi@reddit
Speaking from personal experience, I was classed as a suicide risk. At the time I did answer the door, the emergency services later advised when we were chatting that had I not answered they would have forced entry.
I can only assume that they assessed the situation and concluded that there was no immediate risk to life so didn't force entry. At least you'd hope that was the case.
SixCardRoulette@reddit
I posted this a while back when someone else asked what happens if the police smash down your door - so, well, first of all, they can smash down your door! But here's what happened in my small block of flats:
-
The rozzers turned up at my downstairs neighbour's flat because nobody had seen him for months, and the curtains were closed and post was piling up; they suspected he might be dead in there. They were banging on his door, they shone some lights through the window and shouted his name through the letterbox, made a couple of phone calls, and then they just smashed the door down and went in shouting his name. It seems like he'd done a runner, because the place was empty, cobwebs everywhere but no rotting food in the fridge etc.
They stayed around for about an hour until a bloke turned up and nailed a door-sized board into the frame, and left. They said if the guy turned up, to tell him to speak to his insurers. He did show up alive and seemingly well a couple of months later, asking what the hell happened to his door, and we passed the message on, but it's still boarded up nearly a year later.
jimmywhereareya@reddit
UK here. Similar situation with my neighbor. Her life has gone right down the shitter over the last couple of years. She's known to the police and she's been sectioned before. `last time a welfare check was called in, by her mental health nurse, they broke down her door. I'm not sure if it was the police or fire and rescue who broke in. Anyway, she was sectioned again
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