How can we explain the migrations of these populations to the Balkans, which contributed to the formation of modern Balkan states?
Posted by TurkOmbre@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 106 comments
Turkey : North Mongolia
Bulgaria : Volga (today Chuvashia)
Croatia : Iran/Afghanistan
Hungary : Oural
Romania : Central Italy
Serbia : Germany
One-Photograph8443@reddit
These maps strike me as highly pseudoscientific.
Serbs, Croats, and other South Slavs did not come from Afghanistan or Germany in any simple modern sense, they emerged historically through early Slavic migrations and later ethnogenesis in the Balkans, with ongoing contact and mixing along the way.
The claim that Serbs originate from what is now Germany usually refers to theories linking them to the White Serbs and the Sorbs, but that connection is debated and should not be treated as a simple fact
Turkic peoples such as the Turks, Kazakhs and Tatars belong to a broader Turkic family and are relatively close to one another linguistically and historically, while Romanian developed from Vulgar Latin, much like other Romance languages, funfact many debat that the name Romania was choosen because they wanted to highlight their connection to the antic romans
Vestout@reddit
Bulgars weren't "related" to turkic peoples, they were a turkic people.
Rebelbot1@reddit
The origins are disputed.
Vestout@reddit
Among Bulgarian chavinists maybe. There's no debate in serious scholarship.
Rebelbot1@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars No, it is not, look it up. Thinking the topic is not neuanced is evidant of propaganda on your side, not mine. So most likely theres no debate in tukish chauvinist "serious" scholarship they teach you. There is little evidence to make a conclusion, especially since Russia does not allow excavation on their sites (a few bulgarian countries were in transcaucasia).
The Bulgars were a semi-nomadic people, possibly of Turkic or Iranic origin, who established the First Bulgarian Empire in 681 AD. Over time, they merged with the Slavic population, losing their language but contributing to the formation of the Bulgarian state and identity.
Vestout@reddit
I cant decide what's worse. The fact that your first instinct was to throw a Wiki link in my face, or that said link itself states the Bulgars are a Turkic people.
Since all Turkic peoples are mixed with Iranic nomads to varying degrees during migrarions westward, the Iranic connection is also moot.
"Disputed" yeah right buddy.
Rebelbot1@reddit
It says turkic language, not turkic origins. Reading with understanding, everyone.
Vestout@reddit
Are you actually illiterate or trolling or what?
"The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari,[1] Proto-Bulgarians[2]) were Turkic semi-nomadic warrior tribes"
"During their westward migration across the Eurasian Steppe, the Bulgar tribes absorbed other tribal groups and cultural influences in a process of ethnogenesis, including Iranic, Uralic, and Hunnic tribes."
These are the first fucking paragraphs. Hello?
They were a Turkic people who spoke a Turkic language. That's it. End of. The fact that your comically zealous Turcophobic upbringing can't accept Turkic origins of the Balkans' history won't change the facts.
Rebelbot1@reddit
Wikipedia clearly explains why it is disputed. This would have been clear have tou read past the overview. As you noted, they absorbed many tribes during their migration, so most likely they were mixed. We know that they had a common root or some connection with the Huns, they may have been mercenaries and had a genetic connection with them. The Huns were a union of many tribes, probably composed of a Scythian elite with a Turkic majority, and were subsequently completely Turkicised from a linguistic point of view. We also know that the Proto-Bulgarians moved together with the Magyars for a large part of their existence, and in Hungarian there is a significant percentage of borrowings from the Turkic language, of which group the only surviving representative today is Chuvash. In Old Bulgarian, as well as in the modern languages influenced by it, including today's Bulgarian, there are also several words that are obviously borrowed from the Turkic language and are also emphasized in Hungarian. We cannot deny the presence of an Iranian vein. Even linguistically Turkified, the tribes of the Eurasian steppes have preserved the cultural and religious heritage of the Scythians and continue their traditions to such an extent that in the absence of epigraphic statements, Turkic, Iranian, Yenisei and Ural tribes are practically indistinguishable. Only here and there the name of a deity changes. This is the key basis on the fact they are mixed. Without generalisation, stating that a tribe is not mixed is completely unscientific as migration makes it impossible to preserve genes and not mix culture. Furthermore the lack of clear historical "beginning" of a culture or a tribe further hinders our ability to conclude anything regarding most, if not all, of the old tribes.
Vestout@reddit
"Wikipedia clearly explains why it is disputed" Where? Are you hallunicating?
I never made the claim the Bulgars were not mixed but instead "pure Turkic" in any sense. Actually nobody made that claim, it's just a strawman you created because the facts don't support your deep-seated chauvinistic illusions. Since all Turkic peoples are mixed, either the culturally, linguistically and politically Turkic-dominant peoples are Turkic or Turkic people don't exist altogether.
"We cannot deny the presence of an Iranian vein" Nobody's doing that.
"Even linguistically Turkified, the tribes of the Eurasian steppes have preserved the cultural and religious heritage of the Scythians and continue their traditions to such an extent that in the absence of epigraphic statements, Turkic, Iranian, Yenisei and Ural tribes are practically indistinguishable." You're deciding on a whim that these peoples who are only "linguistically Turkified" but were in core something other without clarifying what leads you to that conclusion. You have to go through some serious mental gynastics like "everything discovered by archéologists, extrapolated by historians and linguists might hint at their Turkic origins BUT BUT there's so much left to uncover which hints at Iranic, Slavic, Uralic and everything else. Trust me its there!" to justify that stance. That stance being the agenda of post-Turkish Bulgarian chauvinist attempts of erasing the role of Turkic history in the region.
Rebelbot1@reddit
To be fair, rereading my paragraph I have been doing mental gymnastics. But I can not help it but feel that you just want to be a victim.
"Among Bulgarian chavinists maybe."
"The fact that your comically zealous Turcophobic upbringing can't accept Turkic origins of the Balkans' history won't change the facts."
"the facts don't support your deep-seated chauvinistic illusions"
"That stance being the agenda of post-Turkish Bulgarian chauvinist attempts of erasing the role of Turkic history in the region."
You're acting like its a deep-rooted conspiracy against turkish people meant to undermine their history. The truth is, it is still an area of research. This inherently makes it disputed, whether you like it or not.
>I never made the claim the Bulgars were not mixed but instead "pure Turkic" in any sense.
"Bulgars weren't "related" to turkic peoples, they were a turkic people."
Regardless, our clearly skewed perceptions of history do not matter. Eventually this will become more clear.
Brilliant_Low_8235@reddit
Before long, Wikipedia will be saying, “There’s actually no such thing as a Turk.” You can see how it has turned into an anti-Turkish site by reviewing the old versions of the articles following the appointment of a Turkish-hating moderator.
furyca@reddit
Everyone is "possibly" of Iranic origin on Wikipedia hahaha.
Brilliant_Low_8235@reddit
Wikipedia is an anti-Turkish propaganda site. You can see how this site has turned into an anti-Turkish site by examining the old versions of its articles.
Brilliant_Low_8235@reddit
There is a claim that some of today’s Tatarstan Tatars were once Bulgars. If true, genetic testing could shed light on this matter.
Vestout@reddit
Genetic research already confirms the closest relatives of Bulgars are Idel (Volga) Tatars
Matagoran@reddit
That's like saying "your uncle is not related to you, it's your family".
Rebelbot1@reddit
Bulgars have disputed origin, it may be an iranian one.
Vistbalt@reddit
Iranian version popular only in Bulgaria.
Rebelbot1@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars No, it is not, look it up. Thinking the topic is not neuanced is evidant of propaganda on your side, not mine. There is little evidence to make a conclusion, especially since Russia does not allow excavation on their sites (a few bulgarian countries were in transcaucasia).
The Bulgars were a semi-nomadic people, possibly of Turkic or Iranic origin, who established the First Bulgarian Empire in 681 AD. Over time, they merged with the Slavic population, losing their language but contributing to the formation of the Bulgarian state and identity.
JRJenss@reddit
Totally agree with you, but would just like to add that while the connection of Sorbs and Serbs, is indeed debated...and they're certainly not the same people now, the past link is definitely not too far fetched. The Greeks mention both White Croats and the White Serbs and kinda put them as neighbors even in the old homeland. Now, given that Slavic tribes had moved quite far to the west, all the way to modern day eastern Germany, this connection is entirely plausible. The area where Sorbs live is around Dresden, so just north of Czechia and close to Polish Silesia. White Croatia was supposedly in the northeastern Czechia, basically the northern Moravia region, western Slovakia and southern Poland around Katowice and Krakow. That's not that far from the Sorbs and have in mind that the Sorbian territory has shrunk over time - they are basically an endangered population with so many having assimilated, so in the far past we could've been neighbors even in central Europe.
RestepcaMahAutoritha@reddit
Small correction. The word Vlach was an exonym, going back as far as there is data, romanians always called themselves "rumân" or român which basically meant roman. Wallachia was always called by romanians "Țara Românească", which means Țara= Terra, Românească = of romanians, or Romanian-land.
In conclusion, there was never a recorded time when Romanians didn't call themselves that, and their land land of romanians.
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
Romania was also the name of the Bizantine Empire. They always call themselves romans despite speaking greek. The name still apear on Venetians maps from 1500's.
RestepcaMahAutoritha@reddit
Ok, and? It has no relation to the romanians.
deviendrais@reddit
The Serb-Sorb connection should not be treated as a simple fact, you're right. But I don't think it's fair to compare it to other batshit pseudoscientific theories like Croats coming from Iran. Byzantine sources (Ad Administrando Imperio) write that Serbs came from the White Serbs who lived beyond Hungary. Slavs initially reached deep into Germany but were later assimilated so I really don't think it's that far-fetched to assume that there is a connection to Sorbs.
One-Photograph8443@reddit
Totally agree, didn't want to put both on the same pedestal. From my own experience as a speaker of both serbocroatian and polish i can tell that the sorbian language reads like kind a mix of both, while it shares more gramatic similarity to polish or czech i feel like the vocabulary aligns more with southern slavic languages than them in the west. But this could be a personal feeling.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
What in the name of 2014 14 year-old-boy on The Apricity is this
Croats/Bosniaks come from western Ukraine and southeastern Poland, the Slavic homeland.
Slavs split off from the Indo-European branch 4,000 years ago, when Indo-Europeans had already been in the Caucasus’ and Ukraine.
No one came from Iran or Afghanistan. Serbs had a separate tribes come from what was at the time the Western Slavic homeland, not Germanic. To say Serbs came from Germany is dishonest misinformation.
The only places the Illyrian or Scythian theories have relevance is amongst edgy teens and misinformed boomers who read unchecked garbage online written by people who wanted to claim they were part of the “oldest people in Europe”.
We’re not the oldest people in Europe. We’re slavs and that should be enough.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
So in that case, why does the name Croat come from an Iranian/Afghan clan? Many sources attribute an Iranian origin to the name Croat.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Because the name Croat *is* ultimately from an Iranian source. It comes “from Proto-Ossetian / Alanian *xurvæt- or *xurvāt-, in the meaning of "one who guards" ("guardian, protector")”
In linguistics, when a word is borrowed into a language family *before* that language family begins splitting apart, the word is considered native. Thus, words like Bog (God) are considered to be native Slavic words even if they were borrowed from another source (Iranian).
The Slavic homeland bordered Scythian, Turkic, Hellenic and Germanic civilizations/homelands. The Slavs borrowed the word into their language, the migration of Slavs happened and they just happened to call their new territory something like *Xorvatska*, which eventually became Hrvatska.
That’s it. It’s an Iranian loanword into Slavic, but the Croatian/Bosniak (and Serbs to an extent) are all categorically of Slavic origin. There’s no debate there amongst linguistics, anthropologists, geneticists or historians.
JRJenss@reddit
Well, I'd be more careful with the claim about the Croatian name coming from an Iranian source. While that is quite plausible and even probable, it isn't an established fact the way you put it forward. It is a strong hypothesis but there are still debates going on about it. Furthermore, the only material evidence for it comes in the form of the Tanais Tablets, dated to the late 2nd - early 3d century AD. That's very old, we're talking about the Roman empire times at the ancient Greek city of Tanais in the Don river delta, near modern Rostov-on-Don. The city at the time had a mixed Greek, Gothic and Sarmatian population and was a Greek colony for trading with the east and the Scythians, south between the other Greek Black Sea colonies and the north where from Scandinavians and Slavs were sailing down the river Don with furs, amber and slaves. The most important archeological finds are those tablets and a rather well preserved skeleton. The tablets contain many useful information, but for us additionally interesting are two male names writen in Greek but likely of the Scythian or Alan origin - Horóathos and Horoúathos. That's where the Iranian borrowed name for Croats comes from. Interestingly enough, the found skeleton was analyzed for the DNA with 9 Y-chromosome markers obtained from it. The result came as characteristic for the haplogroup R1a - the most typically Slavic one. At any rate, we do have some concrete evidence for a connection there, but many Europeans were excavating there as well and searching for ancient connections. Thor Heyerdahl for example, in his book 'Jakten på Odin' postulated a controversial idea about the connections between Tanais and ancient Scandinavia. He was basing his idea on the old Norse sagas, but he also conducted some archeological research in the preparation for his book...and whether or not his particular hypothesis was right, the fact remains that the Norse along with the Slavs had been traveling to Tanais. The only question is whether they were ancient Norse as he'd thought, or just the Goths and later vikings.
Otherwise, you're totally right...the idea of the Iranian origin of the Croatian people themselves (not just the name), was debunked in academia immediately as it appeared and the nationalists had attempted to push it in the 90s - in order to separate us from the Slavs, of course. This despite the fact that we speak a Slavic language, have slavic culture, heritage, customs, traditions and largely the genes too. This Iranian thing came up at around the same time when the Gothic origin "theory" appeared as well, and was likewise laughed out of any serious scientific institution.
No-Emu2122@reddit
Croatian etnonym is of Sarmatian/Alanic origin, most of linguists agree on that one.
Sarmatians participated in ethnogenesis of early Slavs and later Croats being slavic dosen't contradict with this theory. Sarmatians lived in the Pontic-caspian stepe untill early medieval period and have infuenced political, cultural and military development of early slavs. To a lesser degree gentic one. They left biggest marker in eastern slavs than on Croats except the name.
It was mostly russian and ukrainian scientists who studied this topic, so it has nothing to do with "nationalist croats" and "the nineties" (since the theory is several hundred years old). These scientists explicitly say there was Alanic group with Croat name which, as a part of hunnic army expelled the Goths out of Ukraine and creaated a large state which assimilated proto-slavs of that area, so it's not a supposed borrowing of Iranic name by originally non-iranic group.
JRJenss@reddit
Contradict with what theory?? I agree with the name and the contacts of Slavs and other groups. I just said that is still a hypothesis and the way you expressed yourself seemed as tho it was a fact.
I don't understand the rest you wrote here. What are you trying to say, given that above you said Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs are of "categorically" Slavic origin?
ismellsomethinggood@reddit
Most like they were Avars
No-Emu2122@reddit
Our neighbours to the east are geneticlly more similar to Avars so no.
kicklhimintheballs@reddit
The OP is literally a kid. At least I hope so. Holy shit the ignorance
Orthodox-Paradox@reddit
To simplify (all except Romania): Mongols or other hordes
For the Romanians : Romans settled the border region, much like other border regions, they also converted the local populations to a creole Roman culture .
Legal-Arachnid-323@reddit
The Serb-Sorb thing is debunked pseudo-science.
FreeThem2019@reddit
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
Go back to the school bro 🫢
ChrisRedfield696969@reddit
Adam ol
vaslui-berceni@reddit
Romanians are not from italy, we are native to the balkans, we just got assimilated by a foreign empire
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
ROMAnia
vaslui-berceni@reddit
Come on man, do we look more like serbs or turks or spanish and portugheese?
RestepcaMahAutoritha@reddit
Romanians come from Roman soldiers. It's an important distinction. The Roman soldiers were not specifically Italian or Spanish. They were people from all over the empire, that were awarded land as payment for their service. That land happened to be in Dacia. Others were soliders stationed there who married locals and didn't leave when the empire withdrew. Many were romaniazed locals. All had a very difficult time after the fall of the western empire.
Anyway, my point is that very few were actual italians.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
I think that doesn't change anything, the origin of Romania and the Romanian people goes back to Italy
vaslui-berceni@reddit
Abi, the LANGUAGE origin is from modern day Italy, the people did not migrate
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
It's not just the language, but also the name of the country; you have been speaking Latin for 2000 years, you are just as Latin as Portugal, France or Spain
Didudidudadu737@reddit
You’re really mistaking this, Romania was Latinised during the Roman empire just as majority of the region. Everyone called themselves Romans even after the division as what we now call Byzantine empire was eastern Roman Empire.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
So if they're not Latin, what are they? Illyrians like the Albanians? Do they need a union between Albania, Kosovo, and Romania?
ACraciun@reddit
Dacians. Our origin is dacian.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
So the same family as Illyrians
Romania-Albania are brothers or Romania-Italy ?
ACraciun@reddit
Romania-Albania are more like 3rd cousins
Romania - Italy ...well, we are all in Rome's foster home, so we are brothers, but from another mother.
This_Lion5856@reddit
Bruh Romanians spoke and wrote in cyrilic up until the early 19th century, this is super easily verifiable
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
Central Asian Turkish is also written in Cyrillic, what difference does that make? Turkish is also written with the Latin alphabet without being a Romance language.
69RetroDoomer69@reddit
Thanks, I guess? I never heard of forceful imposed third person larping but ok
vaslui-berceni@reddit
Dna tests are the biggest enemy of this subreddit
69RetroDoomer69@reddit
They are zionist game
FigRich2268@reddit
No, Romanians were native to Romania, though it later became known as the province of Decia in the Roman Empire. The locals adopted roman customs and language primarily for prestige, and while I'm sure the population mixed with the Romans, as happened in all empires ever, their origins are not in Rome
vaslui-berceni@reddit
This. Maybe we mixed a bit, but mostly we are native and it is strange to say we all come from Rome
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
If you are not Latin, then with the exception of central Italy, no other region of the world is truly Latin
nefewel@reddit
We are in fact descended from Romans but you guys are too racist to admit that.
peepmet@reddit
Less food here. More food there. Go where food is.
Targoniann@reddit
The Bulgars didn’t come from Volga Bulgaria, both the Danube Bulgars and Volga Bulgars went to their respective locations from old great Bulgaria…
Vestout@reddit
What? Who tf thinks this?
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
Yes from Afghanistan. Sorry for the mistake
sk0opyo1@reddit
Close to everything u write there is wrong
This_Lion5856@reddit
The Volga Bulgaria is wrong, it was established after the Danube Bulgaria.
Old Great Bulgaria was in nowadays Eastern Ukraine, Crimea and Dagestan and that's where the Bulgars branched out from
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
Yes true, I think this map is better :
The Bulgarians originated in Afghanistan; there's even an Afghan city named after them.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
There is 0 proof of that.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
You can check sources by yourself, it is your country so you can take time
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
Oh, sources... Which ones? Do point me?
This_Lion5856@reddit
There is absolutely 0 verifiable sources for Bulgar origin before the Old Great Bulgaria, everything before Kubrat is just hypothesis
azuratios@reddit
There is proof but it's like saying the Greeks originated in Siberia because we have proof of Siberian migration to Greece at the same time range that proto-Greeks appear.
Also this map is old, it's Tajikistan not Afghanistan which is interesting for anthropologists atm.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Yeah Romanians homeland Italy and Germany for Serbs😂😂
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
😏
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Romanians are native to the Balkans and Serbs came from
modern day Poland/Belarus
Curl4Girls@reddit
Bulgars are west eurasian genetically. There is 0 evidence that they have central asian origin
CataphractBunny@reddit
Bro, this bullshit theory was debunked way back in the nineties when it first appeared.
Ancient-Song-8428@reddit
Interesting but where are the souces? Are these speculations or hypothesis?
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
Whilst pre-Balkan Croatian history is the most well documented of all south Slavs, virtually nothing is known about us prior to 6th century.
One cannot explain the "migration from Iran" if there is no solid evidence that there even was migration from Iran in the first place.
Indeed the Croatian ethnonym is most likely of Iranic origin and Slavs did coexist with Sarmatians, Scythians and various iranic nomads of Eastern Europe. However, that does not equate to Croats originating from Iran as Iranians originated from the Eurasian steppe rather than modern day Iran. Also I doubt any Croatian tribal identity existed prior to at least 2nd century AD.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
I think you should change your profile picture to Ahura Mazda and be proud
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
We wuz Persians n shiet
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
Do you plan to help your Iranian brothers against the Israelis and Americans? And while you're at it, tell your brothers to liberate Azerbaijan, please 💀
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
It is only natural for us to back our Iranian brothers against the Israelis. The Iran-Israel conflict is really just a continuation of the Ustasha-Chetnik holy war.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
But the Ustaše were purely Nazis, weren't they?
Currently, Iran represents the side of the good guys
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Volga Bulgaria was founded in 9th century, 300 years after our Dunabe Bulgaria got established.
kai6794@reddit
This is such an interesting but complex topic. Doubt an Reddit post can give you an well rounded explanation for this
Didudidudadu737@reddit
Maybe r/AskHistorians can answer, it is a truly interesting topic
NegotiationSweet5082@reddit
Man, there is not history sub.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
You have the right not to like history, but I think it's quite important to understand why so many people ended up migrating to the Balkans. Like why the Croatians took that entire route from Iran, through Ukraine, and finally landed in Dalmatia ?
NegotiationSweet5082@reddit
Bak tarih sevmiyor değilim ama bu sorunun cevabını bulabileceğin yer burası değil.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
Baksana ne güzel cevaplar vermişler, okumanı tavsiye ederim
RecordIcy5375@reddit
Crazy how far these people came to live in the lush land of the Balkan region.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
Lush land yeah and not war land
amazingamy19@reddit
We should have stayed in Germany.
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit
They would far rather live in the Balkans where the weather is nice and nobody will give them shit for chillin rather than live in -40/-55C weather with killer bears and tigers.
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
But these peoples turned the Balkans into a bloodbath; only the Ottomans succeeded in establishing peace for several centuries.
That said, the Greeks come from Ukraine; I forgot about them.
Admirable_Mud_470@reddit
we were a combo of Ugric and Hunnic/Turkic peoples, so point of origin is also Mongólia
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
No, the Magyars are not Turkic; however, during your migration, Turkic clans also participated, and these Turks eventually became assimilated into the Magyars.
complexluminary@reddit
Because it’s really nice down there, bre
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
The Bulgarians did not migrate from Volga they went to Volga and Danube around the same time.
The_ScarRzZ@reddit
i doubt Hungarian ancestors settled in modern day Moldavia
TurkOmbre@reddit (OP)
There was even a Hungary in the Caucasus that eventually disappeared, so Moldova doesn't even seem surprising to me.
DriveByAtanCivciv@reddit
Ukrainian farmland has been a historical highway for migration for years because its flat and green 👍
ivanp359@reddit
2 is wrong. Volga and Danube are different, branching from Crimea
One-Necessary-135@reddit
Uralic people migrated from via the seima turbino route from the proto uralic homeland. The samoyeds (nenets, sölkups, nganasans etc) broke off first, then the ugric peoples (khanty, mansi, hungarians). The rest of the Fenno-Permic peoples migrated further west.
Whereas the ob-ugric people (khanty and mansi) stayed put, the hungarians travelled on with other nomadic people (such as the khazars).