The First Modern Car Without Hydraulic Brakes Is Headed to Production
Posted by Anchor_Aways@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 286 comments
Posted by Anchor_Aways@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 286 comments
leebe_friik@reddit
FortNine just recently posted a video about a wonderful early-2000s BMW cruiser motorcycle that already implemented the same brilliant idea 20+ years ago. When the electric brake system failed, which it did, then the rider had absolutely fck all to make the 630 lb bike to stop.
PanadaTM@reddit
What does a motorcycle rider do when a hydraulic line fails?
It's just a moot point. Honestly there's more fail-safes that can be intudisided in an electrictronic system than a hydraulic one. An electriconic brake system can be set to only release while receiving voltage, essentially making the brake work w/o power. Hydraulics will always become useless without pressure.
leebe_friik@reddit
They can use the other brake. A hydraulic line is probably also less likely to fail catastrophically. Chances are it develops a slow leak and loses brake effectiveness gradually.
time_to_reset@reddit
Brake-by-wire has a whole bunch of redundancy built in. It's not like there's a single wire that breaks and all of a sudden the car is uncontrollable. We never hear of cars that no longer respond to pedal inputs on throttle-by-wire cars either do we. You get things like pedal position sensor errors, car goes into limp mode maybe, but as far as I'm aware there's no instant "pedal stops working" issues.
With how many tests cars have to pass I'm not at all worried for the safety aspect of it.
ExplosiveMachine@reddit
Hyiundai couldn't build rear seats with enough redundant safety to not crush a child. So I'm sure the theory is sound, but implementation quality remains to be seen.
time_to_reset@reddit
Mistakes happen everywhere. A floor mat is as low tech as it gets, but unfortunately mistakes happen and in some cars it caused accelerator pedals to get stuck. There have been endless recalls for cars with leaking/bursting hydraulic brake lines. Just because mistakes happen doesn't mean certain technology is worse than another.
leebe_friik@reddit
What if it just loses power, due to a short? That is ultimately how electrical systems work. Even airlines with triple redundant fly-by-wire systems still have their sticks physically connected to the control surfaces.
time_to_reset@reddit
I believe planes like the 777, 787 or fighters like the F35 don't have a physical connection between their yokes and control surfaces.
CrashingBlumpkins46@reddit
Each wheel has it's own master cyl on a bike, so you still have the other wheels brake.
byteminer@reddit
So, electro-mechanical brakes I would be fine with. The brake pedal closes a circuit at a varying voltage which applies voltage to the caliper mechanism that applies brake pressure. Fine, no software required.
Once you put a chip in the mix which interprets the signal and applies conditional logic to applying brake pressure, no the fuck not.
I’m a software engineer and vulnerability researcher. Fuck software where all you need is signal.
gumol@reddit
how will you handle regenerative braking with just a signal?
byteminer@reddit
Don’t know. I’m not an automotive engineer. That’s okay.
gumol@reddit
ok, but your provided a solution in your comment
byteminer@reddit
I provided an opinion on overcomplicating a system with unnecessary software. I did not considering regenerative braking, obviously, and that is likely an application where you can’t do it in a cost effective manner without software.
gumol@reddit
This solution is designed specifically for cars with regenerative braking. This isn’t a corner case, this is the use case.
glidingMANATEE@reddit
Just FYI, this isn't a solution designed specifically for cars with regenerative braking:
"The main advantage of SENSIFY is that thanks to its architecture, it can be adapted to any kind of vehicle, no matter the size or the mission. From city cars to sedans, from sport or high performance and even light commercial vehicles, but also for the new mobility: electric and autonomous vehicles."
https://www.brembo.com/en/sensify
byteminer@reddit
That’s just lovely
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Well sorry to say, but 4 channel ABS is like 30 years old, so you've been using software to interpret your brake pressure for a while already.
byteminer@reddit
And if the unit fails I still have direct hydraulic control of the brakes, just no pulse system fired by wheel speed.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Not necessarily at the point of failure.
And if an electric system fails, you've got multiple levels of redundancy, more so than with any consumer grade hydraulic one.
byteminer@reddit
And you are now discussing a failure in the hydraulics, which is not a software failure.
Buttholium@reddit
No electro mechanical brake system would be fully analog. And I don't think you would want that either. The system would require constant calibration and wouldn't have any fault protection. You can add these things into a digital system.
LegoGuy23@reddit
I don't think I like the sound of safety features being fully by-wire. I felt the same way when the Lexus RZ was offered with steer-by-wire, but this electronic braking system is even more concerning to me.
What happens when the car gets old and systems start breaking down? I do not want to have to worried that if I get bigger electrical gremlins there's a chance my brakes might not work correctly.
It just seems like technology for technology's sake, to me. I know the first and maybe second owners won't need to worry, but down the line? Seems pretty sketchy to me...
pusch85@reddit
Your concern isn’t related to this brake-by-wire system. As cars and their components age, EVERYTHING runs the risk of failing.
It’s not like the hydraulic brakes we know and love are a foolproof solution. There are countless ways they can fail.
I’d argue that a brake-by-wire system can probably remove 75% of possible failure points in a braking system.
jnyc777@reddit
Regular brakes always had a cable backup system, these are now electronic as well making them no backup??
clquake@reddit
What cable? The parking brake cable? That's not really designed to stop a car, just to keep a car from rolling away.
carpenj@reddit
Well, it is called an "emergency brake" so it was probably designed for emergencies right?
anomalous_cowherd@reddit
Only in some places. Here it's always been a "handbrake" and it's used every time we park. It was also designed in as a fallback mechanically operated system for if the new fangled hydraulic brake systems all failed. Because at that point people were having exactly the same conversation we're having now about electronic braking!
jnyc777@reddit
It was still a mechanical backup
clquake@reddit
Only if you want to spin out of control.
jnyc777@reddit
Do you lock up every time you touch the brakes, the lever is the same principle, don’t just rip it up all the way and it won’t lock the brakes
clquake@reddit
In an emergency stop situation, do you really think you have time to modulate the handbrake?
jnyc777@reddit
It’s pulling a handle, your not solving a rubix cube
clquake@reddit
In an emergency stop situation, how are you going to modulate the handbrake when you have only a few seconds to react? You're going to hit whatever you're trying to avoid. If you try to turn and pull the brake, you'll spin and impact on the side. If you're unlucky, you'll impact on the driver's side and hit your head on the glass if there are no side impact bags. I'd rather hit head on so there's more car to absorb the hit.
jnyc777@reddit
It’s a pull, either pull hard or easy, just like regular brakes. Ok yes you have a split second you may pull so hard you keep the handle in your hands, if it’s that much of an emergency every 10kph you managed to slow down takes away a magnitude of force from the impact. If you have a few seconds then pulling the handle like you’d press a pedal isn’t that difficult, press the button pull if your pulling too hard relax abit.
clquake@reddit
You make it sound easy. I drift my cars, and I can tell you that's not going to happen in an emergency. You're going to grip and rip. By the time you realize the rears are locked, you've already spun and impacted.
jnyc777@reddit
If your going in a straight line your not spinning out the rear wheels drag, grip it and rip it is a knee jerk reaction or a panic, again if your a split second from hitting something and you rip it, slowed by even 10kph you’re still better off, if you have any amount of time then modulating the brake isn’t difficult. Like anything circumstances are everything, is it snowing, raining, are you in a corner, who knows when this emergency could happen in which case, if you’re drifting on purpose, chances are you’d make a better knee jerk reaction than someone who’s never played with the ebrake. If your ripping your ebrake every time to drift your working too hard and could probably drift smoother if you modulate the brake, if your going hard into a corner steer with a slight pull will break traction. Drifting is a beautiful dance between traction and chaos
clquake@reddit
When I'm drifting, there's no ripping. The handbraking is anticipated and planned. It's quite literally the opposite of an emergency. Only under perfect circumstances is a handbrake stop going to be straight. Tires have to be identical, brake pads have to be identical, braking pressure has to be identical. The cable has to split the pressure evenly. Road has to be free of bumps, no changes in surface grip. Car weight has to be perfectly balanced 50/50 left/right. Car weight includes the driver. I've done a lot of setup and testing. Only once have I been able to panic stop the car straight using handbrake only, and I'm pretty sure that was just luck/lower speed.
jnyc777@reddit
On the street unless you at highway speed were talking of 40-80 kph and seriously there’s less chances of both sides being so far off “perfect” that you’d swerve sideways again depending on circumstances, still your other hand is doing what in the air or the steering wheel even if the vehicle is pulling to a side counter steer
clquake@reddit
When we setup my Grand National for drag racing, the parachute would slow the car down to speeds where the normal brakes could handle the task without overheating. Luckily they've never failed to the point where I needed to engage the handbrake on the track. I chalk that up to my two MIT engineering buddies not wanting to scrape me off the track. They did warn me that using the handbrake above 40 mph could result in hitting the walls even though the car tested pretty straight because the end of the track was "not suitable for power sliding and we're not building another car for you."
jnyc777@reddit
I believe our misunderstanding may relate from imperial to metric, 40kph is 25mph. (Side note sick !!! Grand nationals are one of my dream cars !)
jnyc777@reddit
I’ve never needed a parachute lol, but ive engaged the e brake at somewhere between 40-60kph once thinking it wouldn’t work because the thing was seized, through repeated pulling I guess I managed to free it up and to my surprise engagement not sure the percentage of engagement on pavement, the truck didn’t swerve I can’t even remember if it pulled to a side, I almost ate the steering wheel since I was prepared for it to actually engage , the worst part was trying to free it up at a stop sign with a manual luckily old country road no one came up from behind me as it took a few minutes and stalls to get moving again
Haha71687@reddit
You can modulate the emergency/parking brake just as any other brake. At least on the classic cable-operated ones. It's not instant lockup on any car with a mechanical parking brake.
clquake@reddit
Yes you can, but most people don't know that or won't have the time/awareness in an actual emergency to do so.
Duredel@reddit
Not true. It is really an emergency brake, and the name has slowly changed to a parking brake because that is how most people use them. An emergency brake can fully engage the rear brakes and stop any car- not as good as hydraulic brakes, but it will stop.
clquake@reddit
Have you ever tried it? Locking the rears at higher speeds will probably spin you. I've done it a lot. Unless you know exactly what it's going to do and how to do it, you're more likely to spin into a ditch or hit a stationary object.
Duredel@reddit
I've done it plenty. You can modulate it surprisingly well, especially if you're only using it to slow down and not do handbrake turns on dirt roads (which is loads of fun if you know what you're doing)
Calibrumm@reddit
as opposed to hitting something at full speed?
clquake@reddit
You have a better chance at avoiding it if you have control of the car.
Calibrumm@reddit
you're gonna avoid a T in the road? a pileup?
clquake@reddit
I'd rather hit it with the front of the car than the side.
Calibrumm@reddit
anything except admitting you're wrong
clquake@reddit
There's a lot of car in the front. Not so much in the sides.
Faceit_Solveit@reddit
Does it damage the emergency brake system to use it? I honestly do not know ...
clquake@reddit
Not really. The cable might be stretched out a bit more than usual and you'll need new drum brake pads sooner if that's what it's attached to.
BigOldButt99@reddit
Not necessarily, if you imagine a spinning metal drum, on the inside of the drum there are two pads of brake material, when you pull on the e-brake, it's just a cable and some springs that expand the brake pads outward, and they contact that inside of the drum and the friction slows it down. So overall, it's a weaker, more simple system. If you really had to use them in an emergency where your main hydraulic brakes had failed, say you had no brakes and were going like 40 mph and had to absolutely crank on the e-brake to stop, I would definitely remove the rear brake rotors and inspect everything. The pads dont last as long as normal hydraulic brake pads, and it's just some thin cables and springs actuating them, so you can break them by pulling super hard.
Oo__II__oO@reddit
Parking brakes have been electrically actuated for quite some time now.
TurboSalsa@reddit
I definitely remember in drivers' ed being taught to yank the parking brake in the event your brakes failed at speed, and if that failed, to jam the transmission into park. Not sure if either of those are possible anymore with the move to switches for both.
pichufur@reddit
The last 4 cars ive owned(2009, 2014, 2018 and 2022 MY) have not had a mechcanical parking brake. they have been electrical switched that actuate the rear caliper. essentially this is just moving all braking to the same system every car i've ever owned has used for its emergency/parking brake.
jnyc777@reddit
Ok but you had 2 systems for possible brake failure
pichufur@reddit
And exposed steel cables under a car have never rusted out before?
still 2 points of failure.
jnyc777@reddit
In the 90’s my truck had exposed wires, my newer cars all had sheaths over the cables, sure 2 points of failure, but the odds of both failing at the same is still better than relying on one only
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
There's little to no chance these show up on an ICE, so there's a natural backup already.
More likely than not also separate circuits to the LV system as well, maybe even a separate LV battery.
joe0400@reddit
That's not true. The e brake on my ford escape is completely electronic.
Look at this image of the caliper.
https://ahparts.com/watermark/1/items/432763/C_203470_432763_02.jpg
jnyc777@reddit
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Older cars had the hydraulic system with a mechanical backup, now they turned it into an electronic parking brake, making the main brakes into an electronic system would they loose any mechanical backup since there is no more ebrake. Or will the bring back the mechanical brake
willpc14@reddit
There are airliners with no mechanical backups between the controls and the control surfaces. I don't think there's been a single fatality because of the lack of mechanical backups. Before anyone mentions the 737MAX, they still have mechanical linkages between the controls and control surfaces. If airliners can be certified to fly safely with just control by wire, there's no reason the same can't be done for cars.
jnyc777@reddit
Can’t and shouldn’t are 2 different stories ! Airliners also get a safety check before every flight unlike some cars that drivers try to avoid putting any Pennie’s into
joe0400@reddit
oh ok, i misinterpreted it, it seemed like you were saying "e brakes have always had" instead of "used to" with the "always had" statement. just a bit confusing.
jnyc777@reddit
Yeah sorry I’m not very good at explaining my train of thought, I’ve been told to get English classes from other subs lol
Toucann_Froot@reddit
You're right but there's an understandability and serviceability about hydraulic brakes. Electrical brakes could just be broken in a software update and leave ur car trashed.
pusch85@reddit
Computers/electronics are already a part of the braking system. ABS/TC/Auto braking, etc.
Hell, we’re nearing the point where the braking system as we know it is becomes a secondary method to slow and stop a moving vehicle.
Hydraulic systems have done a great job thus far, but electronic methods will improve things. Maybe not for mechanics.
GrynaiTaip@reddit
ABS sensor wire broke in my car (old car, road salt), so ALL of those assistance systems turned off.
It just brakes like an old car now, I can still drive it.
ahdiomasta@reddit
I’m not wholly convinced it is a significant upgrade, what makes you think electronic methods will be measurably better? As you said we’ve already figured out how to use electronics to enhance the hydraulic system, but I have yet to hear a technical explanation as to why a purely electronically actuated brake is better than a hydraulic one.
RationalDialog@reddit
6158675309@reddit
Aside from the points made in the comments above about the computer part - this type of braking system has less parts, no pads, no rotors, etc. The focus in the above comments has been on the brake by wire vs hydraulic fluid but the Brembo system is more than that, at least according to this article it is.
The system removes pads, rotors, etc and replaces it with e-motors. How? we dont know. The article doesn't say, in fact it mentions the announcement is short on details but maybe something is coming soon.
The speculation is this system has way fewer moving parts, but until we find out more we are just guessing...
xXxDickBonerz69xXx@reddit
Electric forklifts have had electric brakes for ages because as mentioned in the article most if not all deceleration is done with the electric motors.
The most common one I've seen is a sort of pad and rotor on a shaft held apart by a magnetic solenoid. When power is cut to the solenoid the brake slams shut.
I would love to see the specifics of this system though because it obviously can't be all or nothing braking like that.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
This system doesn't remove pads or rotors, just everything else between the pedal and the calipers (booster, master cylinder, lines).
These are electrically actuated friction brakes.
6158675309@reddit
Yes, that is a traditional brake by wire. What's proposed here by Brembo could be different. At least the article infers it could be.
Will it remove the rotors and calipers, who knows. Probably not for some cars, maybe it will for pure EVs.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
There is no traditional brake by wire, but this is the first application that would qualify.
The original press releases when they announced this had more details:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40691502/brembo-sensify-brake-system/
When they mean this will rely on electric motors, they mean that electric motors actuate the calipers. Using motors to brake is simply regenerative braking, which is already widely in use, but can't be the sole method of stopping.
Faceit_Solveit@reddit
Response time for one thing.
zdiggler@reddit
My car have all those lights on at the moment, and I can still stop.
ThetaGrim@reddit
None of those electrical systems you've mentioned are critical failure points for the car, meaning they're nice to haves but not essential to operating the vehicle safely. That said, I think the amount of failure will be on par with mechanical failures but there's a sense of understanding that well maintained mechanical brakes won't fail as opposed to well maintained electrical brakes that may have a bug or bad software.
funnyfarm299@reddit
You can say that to yourself, but the single most terrifying moment of my life was when I discovered my VW had a defective ABS module mid-slide. Maybe it would have detected an issue if the electronics weren't only in use during emergency scenarios.
MisterEinc@reddit
First statement, you don't know that. Electrical systems typically have fewer moving parts, so if anything you would logically assume the failure rate is lower there.
And a bug or bad software? You mean like a faulty line, faulty part, or the fact that every repair means the system is only as good as the last tech who repaired it? You leave a line loose and it touches the chassis it will leak. These systems aren't bulletproof, either.
bungblaster69@reddit
except they don't
let's compare drive by cable vs drive by wire
drive by cable: your throttle pedal is a lever connected to a cable that connects to the cam on the throttle body. You have 3 moving parts
drive by wire: you have 2 sensors in the throttle pedal. They can be direct drive wipers that move across a PCB or it can be a geared arrangement with pots. The signal is processed by the ECU and output to the throttle body. The throttle body has a motor, geartrain, and 2 more sensors giving feedback to the ECU. You can have over a dozen moving parts in a drive by wire system
There are many reasons for a DBW system and they're fairly reliable, but parts count is not it
captainbeertooth@reddit
I’d be willing to bet that most traditional setups still have position sensors in order to aid in advanced control features. If not full analog position, still very likely to have a top and or bottom switch for a plausibility check.
So really, in modern cars with drive by cable config still have about half the electronics as a drive by wire system. And you have to admit a physical linkage from the floorboard, through the firewall, to wherever the throttle body is located, is a much larger part qualitatively.
ThetaGrim@reddit
Yea but my Jaguar throws codes for no reason that come on and off repeatedly at random. I've had it for 8 years and no tech or dealership has ever been able to find out what's wrong or even remove it despite numerous reflashed and ecu upgrades. Would hate for my brakes to have similar issues should Jaguar make electric brakes..
MisterEinc@reddit
When have Jaguars ever been known for their reliability?
Faceit_Solveit@reddit
Braking software is unlikely to have frequent updates. If you want to fix software, fix software liability laws.
Magnus_The_Totem_Cat@reddit
MFer if we could fix the laws do you think any of this shit would be happening!? Might as well tell someone to grow a second head.
Faceit_Solveit@reddit
Bitch my 44 years in software of all kinds tells me that unless the rich are held to account we are in trouble. 😌
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
Can you acknowledge that this is purely marketing / purely ideological opposition then?
e.g. not rational.
I've seen the same resistence towards every advancement. People wanted to keep Carby's over EFI. People wanted mechanical injection over Common rail diesel.
People didn't want ODBII cause you'd need a computer to be a home mechanic. All stuff that 90s-2000's that makes life better.
bungblaster69@reddit
I do industrial automation. I've seen electrical gremlins make safety systems wig out and those are pretty robust. The latest one was due to suppliers penny pinching connectors in a way that would make 12vhpwr look competent
I'll stick to simple hydraulics
hi_im_mom@reddit
People here aren't rational. It's reddit.
MonoAonoM@reddit
People definitely still want this
TheEndIsNigh420@reddit
I hesitate to compare brake by wire systems to OBDII or Carb/EFI. Brakes from a driving standpoint in hydraulic systems provide feedback to driving. You can feel the tires lock up or the abs kick in, is fly-by-wire on the future going to mimc this? Will it be limited to abs-only for safety? So many questions about how the real world implementation is going to be and even more questions about how dIfferent manufacturers will do it. I have a million more questions regarding how failures will be handled and what redundancies or backup sustems will be available and whether they are automatic or require manual action to use/initiate.
Lot o' questions. I didn't bat an eye to obdii or efi. In fact, I recall being very excited for those changes as they came out.
Snazzy21@reddit
Ask a Range Rover owner about the 3 amigos. Those systems fail, but they don't completely prevent you from braking
lifestepvan@reddit
The fully hydraulic/mechanic fallback is always there with usual systems. Including a redundancy from having dual circuits. So a failure is extremely unlikely with proper maintenance. Electronics being present on top of that doesn't change a thing regarding safety.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
or mice and other rodents chewing a wire that doesnt flex and short out till your at speed...
Moistinterviewer@reddit
Because mice can’t chew brake lines
GrynaiTaip@reddit
It's highly unlikely for a mouse to chew through all four. Your brakes will work for a bit even if they're leaking.
opeth10657@reddit
Most of the brake lines are your car are metal, and the rubber bits aren't really in places where mice chew things
Moistinterviewer@reddit
Like in completely exposed areas at the wheel?
opeth10657@reddit
Yes? mice usually go somewhere like the engine bay where it's not completely exposed and suspended in the air like a brake hose.
MisterEinc@reddit
Is that a property of the line or the material around it? Because if that's really a concern you can just the wires inside the same shit.
Dikhoofd@reddit
They won’t if you tell them not to
Cottagecheesecurls@reddit
I tell them to chew my neighbors brake lines instead
PanadaTM@reddit
I'd assume the system is set up with a no power failsafe, so if the wire broke the brakes would automatically engage because of an open circuit
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
which slamming on the brakes on a bridge or interstate or snow will lead to deadly results.
RationalDialog@reddit
my thought exactly. Many scenarios were sudden braking is highly undesirable.
nondescriptzombie@reddit
I don't have to worry about the elevator behind me crashing into me at 75 mph when it automatically locks up the brakes.
FeedbackLoopy@reddit
Kind of like how air brakes work. It’s as normally closed circuit until you pressurize it.
An electrical relay can be set the same way and has been done many times(like in your elevator example).
nedmac12@reddit
Good way to crash while moving at speed
psaux_grep@reddit
The same issue is present with hydraulic brakes.
That’s why modern cars (since the 70’s?) have dual channel braking systems. Two outputs on the master cylinder, each pushing fluid to two wheels.
ABS already regulates braking pressure electronically, and in the 90’s and onwards this caused load reduction valves to go away.
If the ABS controller stops working you’re more likely to lock up the rear wheels.
There’s a lot of things that can go wrong with hydraulic brakes, but as long as you’re getting pressure through at least one pipe you have brake pressure, and the parking brake still works in a pinch, even the electronic ones (just hold the button).
I think my biggest gripe with brake by wire is that if all other systems fail you lose power. Hydraulic brakes you can always push harder.
That said, never needed the mechanical backup, but have had leaky calipers, bad ABS controllers (hello $2500 bill if you wanted a replacement from VAG, or a $300 life time warranty rebuild), stuck pistons, etc.
I’m not all doom and gloom, but it’s understandable to be skeptical.
Mental_Medium3988@reddit
Not always like with air in the lines. No matter how hard you push the air isn't gonna compress the same way the hydraulic fluid is.
captainbeertooth@reddit
How do you all of a sudden have a failure mode of air in the brake lines? That would only happen via poor service
And even then, the ‘park’ to ‘drive’ transition in modern cars requires a press of the brake pedal as a means to verify pressure rise.
Mental_Medium3988@reddit
an old soft line could weep enough to let pressure build and then suck air back in after.
MisterEinc@reddit
Exactly. Every keyboard engineer out here coming up with the most basic failure scenarios. A single circuit failing disables the system? Yeah no way that's seeing production regardless of the power source.
RichardNixon345@reddit
You say that, but we just had Kia killing kids because they couldn’t be bothered to think “hey these power seats should probably not keep folding if they encounter resistance”
AmazonPuncher@reddit
Thats kia, though. Everyone who works at Kia is there because the other OEMs wouldnt hire them. Just dont buy a kia.
altiuscitiusfortius@reddit
Especially with new environmentally friendly wire coverings and coatings being so tasty to mice!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/automobile-protection-association-soy-coating-attracting-rodents-damage-9.7138919
TheRealPizza@reddit
Is that necessarily different from chewing a hydraulic line?
ahdiomasta@reddit
Hydraulic lines (and the fluid within moreover) aren’t made of the same kinds of materials that rodents are attracted too. This is indeed a case of a solution in search of a problem in many ways, hydraulic brakes are not known for failures so I fail to see the massive benefit of going towards fully by-wire controls aside from the fact that it gives marketing teams something to gab about.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
Brake fluid is known for attracting water. Brakes require bleeding. Brake hoses that are rubber degrade over time, the hard lines rust.
There are lots of fittings. The master/slave cylinders can go bad.
"Hydraulic brakes don't fail" is... I dunno but brakes require maintenance! They can absolutely fail like every other system out there. They get spongey with air in the system, the brake fluid wears out, they leak.
Going from hydraulic steering to electric can be a big boon. Reliability, less mess, lighter and easier packaging.
Hydraulic brakes are so "not known for failures" that everyone should have an emergency procedure known that is taught in driving school. E.g. pump the brake pedal to get residual hydraulic pressure.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
yes? cuz a few bites thru a wire in seconds, they aint gonna bite a steel line. even the flexi rubber ones are layers of rubber and braided steel.
PlatinumGoon@reddit
Yes because mine can’t chew hydraulic lines?
Forsaken-Praline1611@reddit
Finding and indicating a short is way easier and faster than a fluid leak.
You’re just being wistful and silly about things essentially staying steam punk Rube Goldberg machines forever.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
At a certain point that kind of concern is just "i don't understand how it works and hate new things".
The kind of thinking that has been prevalent for ages. E.g. going from carby to EFI "you can adjust a carby yourself you'll need tools and a degree to adjust EFI'. Then EFI is simply better.
Hydraulic brakes can fail in a myriad of ways that no one seems to care about. But "oh software update can leave your car trashed". So can water into the brake system, or air, or a hose comes loose, or your car can catch fire with hot fluids dripping onto hot exhaust.
You're basically saying "x can break but I am ok with those breaking, Y can break which renders it 100% bad".
RationalDialog@reddit
yeah and and mechanic can see a broken hose and fix it. But electric issues or software bugs? No change. you are at the will of the car manufacturer.
Also they tend to sell replacements electronics as full, very costly units. A simple 5 cent sensors broken? yeah no one will investigate it. you may replace the entire unit for $2000.
Previous_Platform718@reddit
There's nothing in the post you're replying to that indicates they don't understand how the technology works, or that they just hate it for being new. So there's really no reason for you to say something like "you're just like those people who refused EFI"
Apply Chesterton's Fence to this idea. Current brake technology works. Why replace it if it works? What advantages do you get?
And so on. You could actually list the benefits, but for some reason chose not to...
Kitchen-Paint-3946@reddit
So if all main power lost on highway the brakes have a back up right?
azarashi@reddit
Similar logic for Electric Parking brakes that there is less failure points vs having a long cable that goes to the back of the rear.
Snazzy21@reddit
Hydraulic brakes performance usually degrades before failing, electronics will be working one second and completely gone the next.
Everyone always says "BuT pLaNeS uSe FlY bY wiRe!" except planes are rigorously maintained and there are fewer 30 year old planes flying around than 30 year old cars.
TunerJoe@reddit
You're correct about there being less failure points, but the thing is with electronic systems, they will usually work perfectly until one moment when they just stop working completely. When your hydraulic brakes are failing, there will be plenty of signs before they completely break.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Except in the case of electrically actuated brakes, you'd need to have 4 simultaneous failures instead of just one.
TunerJoe@reddit
I'm not so sure about that. My dad's car recently had a fuse burn up on the battery terminal while driving, and all electrics were gone just like that, not even the hazards worked. It's like someone pulled the battery out. If that were to happen on a brake by wire car, you'd have no brakes. I'm sure there would be more failsafes, but it's still pretty terrifying to think about.
lee1026@reddit
You would just need to have the electronics to be "fail closed", or in other words, when power is removed, the brakes engage.
Your car just won't be going anywhere, but that's fine.
cbf1232@reddit
Can you imagine driving down the highway and all the sudden all four brakes just lock?
lee1026@reddit
Probably better than the opposite.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Whichever car it shows up in first isn't likely to be using fuses for it's LV system, so that's not a concern. No OEM brave enough to try this first is old hat enough for fuses.
Car and Driver's initial writeup about this years ago mentioned the possibility of two LV batteries, but I'd guess the same kind of redundancy used in the CT's steer by wire is enough here. In addition to regenerative braking.
dahazeyniinja@reddit
Are there OEMs out there not using fuses??? If there are, that's easily more insane than any brake by wire system is.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Components like this would be safed with e-fuses.
cbf1232@reddit
I read that Telsa uses current monitoring and relays instead of traditional fuses for the 12V stuff.
cbf1232@reddit
Plenty of modern OEMs still use fuses.
pegasusairforce@reddit
The pro of electric brakes is if something appears to not be working correctly, the car can prevent itself from being started / put in drive until the problem is resolved. Catastrophic failures with no warning can happen to hydraulic brakes and do happen all the time.
Jimbenas@reddit
In reality the car will have a bad sensor and won’t let you drive it, dealer will charge $300 for the sensor and it also will require you to take the control arm off to replace it for some reason.
TunerJoe@reddit
You don't need electric brakes for that, semi trucks with pneumatic brakes also don't allow you to move if there's not enough air pressure. Considering hydraulic brakes are already quite intertwined with electronics, this is something that could be done on cars today.
pegasusairforce@reddit
In the decades we've had hydraulic brakes, no one has bothered investing in that system. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it would be silly to overcomplicate hydraulic braking systems to add these type of failsafes when a much simpler solution (electric motors directly communicating with the ECU) is possible.
IMI4tth3w@reddit
Because no one with hydraulic brakes has ever had their foot fall to the floor when using the brake pedal before…
Theoretically an electronic based system could give you way more insights into the health of your braking system than traditional systems.
This feels a lot like the EV transition in general where people are just fear mongering change in the face of innovation and progress.
Jimbenas@reddit
Well good thing that we got rid of the cable E brake.
joe0400@reddit
I'd argue with electronic systems for it it will likely be far more reliable (less points of failure compounding). My only worry is it requiring special tools to do work on but that can be solved.
Good_Air_7192@reddit
As someone whose brake master cylinder catastrophically failed without notice leaving me with zero brakes, I'd have to disagree.
ChiggaOG@reddit
The risk of complete failure without redundancy is higher in brake-by-wire. A broken brake booster still has working brakes, but the effort to slow down is much higher pedal force. Different sensation for those who never driving a car with no brake booster.
Good_Air_7192@reddit
A broken brake master cylinder means no brakes, ask me how I know.
Meeganyourjacket@reddit
I too like to make up percentages.
Confident-Ad-6978@reddit
This guy really trusts electronics in a car LMAO
pusch85@reddit
I do. Not sure what’s hilarious about being optimistic about progress within the automotive industry.
You know what would make you cry from laughter? I love what BMW is doing with the Neue Klasse and would love either the i3 or iX3.
Confident-Ad-6978@reddit
I think it's hilarious when you can see cars bricked from software updates on here.
Car-face@reddit
People often confuse failure modes with points of failure.
You can have a system with a lot of points of failure, but if the failure modes are predictable, preventable, gradual and visible, the risk is lower than a system with fewer points of failure that are instantaneous and unpredictable.
Hydraulic leaks are visible, brake line wear and damage is visible, even wear in the cylinder has differences in brake feel. rarely are any of them instantaneous (a leak will usually be visibly apparent before you run out of fluid) and modern cars have multiple circuits eliminating catastrophic loss of braking.
That said, Brembo's system has been a long time coming, and eliminating the hydraulic system is a big deal from a long-term cost, maintainability and general nastiness perspective - but it's also not as simple as fewer physical points of failure = better.
TheAsianTroll@reddit
I agree, but this also makes the system even harder for an individual to service. You and I both know these electronic brakes will have a computer with software that you need an expensive license to access as a mechanic, or you cant do something like reset the solenoids so you can change the pads.
Maybe itll reduce failure points, but it still feels like a step away from Right to Repair, like every automaker is trying to do.
Own-Inflation8771@reddit
Traditional hydraulic brakes are def not fool proof but they won't brick a car with a single component failure like these electric brakes most likely will. They also have redundancy with 2 separate hydraulic circuits if one leaks while driving.
glasswings363@reddit
I've had hydraulic brakes fail, fortunately while parked. It's extremely obvious and the other half of the system continues to work.
5kyl3r@reddit
they can fail, but they're designed with two separate systems, two cylinders braking a pair of wheels (diagonal from each other), so a brake line can break and you'd still have the second set braking two of the wheels (certified mechanics can correct me if i'm wrong, as things might be different today)
a bad firmware update locking up the controller for the brakes would be pretty bad without some sort of mechanical fallback. the fly by wire steering, at least the earlier ones i first read about, still had a mechanical fallback
that's not to say they won't implement redundancy, as safety is a big thing here, but it still worries me as someone who writes code for a living
taticalgoose@reddit
When I'm using Excel and it doesn't act the way it's supposed to or freezes up for some inexplicable reason I just force quit and reopen it, no harm done. I do not want the same dynamic with my brakes.
mCProgram@reddit
why do you assume that hydraulic brakes can’t fail? you sound like you’re pessimistic for pessimism’s sake.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
More critical applications have successfully implemented brake/power/steer by wire, why can't consumer vehicles?
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
cuz those systems have periodic PMs and inspections. not jim bob hacking into wiring to add a trailer light harness.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
Same with physical throttle wires, brake lines, steering columns.
doktormane@reddit
There's a huge difference between your fly by wire throttle failing and your fly by wire brake failing on the highway.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
Traditional brake lines also fail.
doktormane@reddit
Unless fly by wire brakes will be powered by two separate redundant circuits with separate batteries, hydraulic brakes are still better at dealing with a complete loss of power. Even on cars with power brakes, if the engine cuts off you can still break.
zdiggler@reddit
two batteries to replace now? how much for the backup battery?
ConfusedTapeworm@reddit
EVs do have two batteries. The one large main battery that powers the car when it's on, and the humble old 12V lead acid battery that keeps things running when it's off and locked.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
So how many vehicles out there have that system?
doktormane@reddit
Not sure what you're trying to argue. My point is that in the event of a total power loss, hydraulic brakes still work. The use no electronics so there's no software fault, or bad ground, or whatever to cause it to malfunction. Yes, hydraulic brake lines CAN suffer failures but those are exceedingly rare and a result of years and years of severe rust. By the time a brake line goes bad, the rest of the car will be dust. On the other hand, electrical issues in cars can happen regardless of age.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
You are a layman right? Not working in an engineering role at an auto manufacture?
If you can think of the risks and mitigation, why can't people who do this for a living?
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
because the people who do this for a living didnt think gas pedals on prius' can get stuck down and the brakes dont override the car.
CorrectCombination11@reddit
I'm okay with letting stupid ppl be stupid. Natural selection.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
which system?
MaliciousTent@reddit
"What happens when the car gets old and systems start breaking down? I do not want to have to worried that if I get bigger electrical gremlins there's a chance my brakes might not work correctly."
Company CEO: "We think customers prefer the newest technology via perpetual leasing and they will be happy."
burger_saga@reddit
Agreed. A brake failure on a traditional system is one you can see coming. There might be fewer mechanical failure points on an electrical system, but most of those points are going to be invisible.
zdiggler@reddit
I can visegrip the leaking line, fill it up with dot3 from gas station and drive home.
pointblankjustice@reddit
If by-wire safety systems scare you, wait til you find out how airplanes work.
randomman87@reddit
If it's good enough for fighter jets it should be good enough for road use
Dredgeon@reddit
Do you think hydraulic systems never fail or something?
CMDR_omnicognate@reddit
“It just seems like it’s for technology sake to me”
It’s probably cheaper to make the system a by wire system than a hydraulic system, which will be the real reason for this.
katekisskat@reddit
That’s a fair concern, but brake-by-wire systems aren’t just one fragile electronic path, they’re built with redundancy and fail-safes, so you don’t just “lose brakes” if something glitches.
That said, you’re right about long-term ownership, electrical systems can get expensive and tricky as cars age.
d4rkha1f@reddit
You fly in airplanes all the time (Airbus) that are fully fly-by-wire. The technology is proven.
wiishopmusic@reddit
Or if a rodent chews on one brake wire
bngrxd@reddit
Let's not forget that hydraulic brakes fail all the time. Are they more reliable than this system? Only time will tell.
Unlucky_Situation@reddit
Ah yes, I've never heard of hydrolic braking systems failing.....
Evrything is prone to failure eventually.
joneal6630@reddit
That’s the point. They want to eliminate the ‘down the line’ buyers. Car lifespans are shortening.
Dawncracker_555@reddit
When the car gets old?
There isn't a bolt deliberately designed to last over a decade on any new vehicle.
JordanRulz@reddit
Redundant pedal sensors + redundant controllers + dual wound motors is significantly more redundant than a hydraulic braking system with a single cylinder
glasswings363@reddit
What modern car has a single master cylinder?
Famous_Attention5861@reddit
Dual-circuit brake systems have been mandated on US market cars since 1967.
byteminer@reddit
For only $25 a month, you can have the “don’t randomly apply on the highway” feature!
chlronald@reddit
It could easily be a fail close kind of brake, just like how the big hauler trailers are; they uses compress air to operate their brakes and basically the brake are normally lock when there is a leakage.
tonyis@reddit
It's not as if hydraulic braking systems are immune from wear. Rusty/clogged brake lines are already a concern on older cars.
Additionally, modern braking systems are already heavily integrated with electronics between antilock breaks and stability control systems. I think we're already too far down the rabbit hole of ECU dependency for this to make a significant difference in long term reliability and serviceability.
surfer_ryan@reddit
I fully get your point but also it's not like brakes don't and can't fail and have basically used the same tech since drum brakes. It is weird to me tho, sits in this weird uncanny valley for me of analog and digital but to be fair it's kinda something that should be advanced on, like i want the best possible breaking we can achieve, if that means by magic i don't really care so long as it works.
I mean it does 100% further the agenda of reliability concerns.
c74@reddit
don't think i could look someone in the eye and not tell them about wireless braking before getting in my car. regardless if it is a more reliable system, my grey matter isn't happy with the idea so execution doesn't matter. it is just a nope.
imasammich@reddit
Totally not surprised cars reddit has a terrible understanding of how a non hydaulic braking system in cars will work.
It sounds scary if you barely think about it is sounds scary but its really not.
The main reason i think people think brake by wire is scary is how well performing brakes have been for most people their entire lives. Since people really didn't understand how they worked they just assumed it was some super safe design that had all these back ups. But in reality they just didn't really cata fail all that much.
So if it aint broke why fix it i think most people fall into.
crunchynibbas@reddit
It's a bunch of luddites who are scared of anything not le manuelle and sedan. This thread lowered the average IQ of Reddit.
eirexe@reddit
A lot of people are just happy with what we have now and see no reason to change
redcatmanfoo@reddit
Actually it's because when people say things like " planes have had fly-bywire for years. It'll be fine" some of us remember when planes started using them and that it wasn't always fine and a lot of people died.
275MPHFordGT40@reddit
A lot of people died due to fly-by-wire? Source?
doktormane@reddit
I think people are also rattled from a repairability point of view. With a mechanical/hydraulically system, you can fix your brakes without taking your car to a garage. With a fully electronic system, you might need to program the replacement parts to the ECU.
TheGT1030MasterRace@reddit
Hybrid/EV "blended" brakes are already brakes by wire, with hydraulic backup. The 2004 Prius brakes (in normal operation, and EVERY hybrid/EV Toyota since uses this system) are a simulator that still uses fluid, but there is no actual connection between what you're doing with your foot and what's happening at the calipers. There is a very powerful hydraulic pump that is actually activating the brakes, it's all controlled by a computer, and the pedal is simply an analog input.
If the system fails, there is a hydraulic backup. You have no power brakes (this system has no brake booster), braking is front only, and apparently it feels really sloppy, like the car barely stops.
kurtthewurt@reddit
All modern EVs use regenerative braking and most offer 1-pedal driving, which usually is totally regenerative. I almost never use the physical hydraulic brakes on my cars except in panic stop situations, and you can feel the difference. Only exception is when the battery is really full, so the car has to blend in the hydraulic brakes. It’s not as smooth as the regen.
anomalous_cowherd@reddit
The main thing I notice when my hydraulic EV brakes kick in is the noise, because they are always slightly rusted up!
ChiggaOG@reddit
Except that feeling is how it is for a car with no brake booster. All the effort for max braking is the last few millimeters of pressing on the pedal with a large rise of resistance. Everything before that is like the car doesn't slow down.
kurtthewurt@reddit
I’ve never driven a car without boosted brakes, and it sounds kind of terrifying. Granted, you’d expect it, but still. I’ve driven cars without power steering and that really was not fun at low speed, but generally fine
anomalous_cowherd@reddit
I've recently got my first EV after 40 years driving manual and auto cars in the UK.
It took me three weeks to even notice it doesn't have a handbrake (e-brake) lever at all. And I very rarely touch the brakes pedal, between one pedal driving and adaptive cruise control. Even when I do, it's usually only triggering stopping by regen rather than friction.
The mechanical brakes on my 'hot hatch' EV are used so little that the rears are drums, which handle low usage rates much better than discs.
wusurspaghettipolicy@reddit
You will need a subscription to use your brakes fucking lol
Leasud@reddit
Hydraulic brakes just have a feel to them that can’t be replicated by electric systems. It’s the same thing we see with electric steering systems. I can feel my brakes getting hot, vibrations in my rotors, the slipping of my tires much better via hydraulic systems.
zdiggler@reddit
I hate my Electric Streeing on my truck!
Drive-by-wire throttle has gotten better but I drove a cabled throttle car recently it feels much more responsive, probably due to all my cars being drive-by-wire throttle.
BoringBob84@reddit
We have been through similar discussions in the aerospace industry. Here are some challenges in terms of safety:
In an emergency, can the motor-actuated brake react as quickly and strongly as a hydraulic brake? Milliseconds count.
Does the motor-actuated brake system have a similar proportional braking force to the pedal force, as existing hydraulic systems have?
Will the motor-actuated brake system be as reliable as a hydraulic system?
Will the motor-actuated brake system require redundant channels for communications (i.e., power, actuators, etc.) to achieve that reliability?
Will the motor-actuated brake system be independent between the front and rear wheels, as current hydraulic systems are?
Will the motor-actuated brake system operate during the failure of the main or accessory batteries (such as during a collision)?
Will the motor-actuated brake system be able to indicate a passive failure of the redundant channel at the time that it fails? During an emergency is the worst time to discover that the system has previously failed.
zdiggler@reddit
it will be 4 channels for sure.
willc2580@reddit
I kinda hope this opens the door for better digital feedback solutions in brakes. As of now many new cars have absolutely no feel in the brake pedal.
But with this you could integrate in brake pedals that have technologies similar to something like simucube pedals in sim racing.
zdiggler@reddit
I hate my electric power steering! Especially on off-road, can't feel anything, can't tell if it having a hard time turning the wheel. no whiny noise like steering pump, can't feel the terrain.
Msteele315@reddit
From what I've read in the past, this technology has existed for a while. The problem is (just like the CVT) getting it to a place where consumers are comfortable with how it feels.
Hydraulic and air brakes have a "feel" to them that is difficult to replicate in a true brake by wire system. The article doesn't mention if they solved for that.
gumol@reddit
In a lot of EVs the hydraulic brakes are almost never activated - it’s all done by electric motors. So the “feel” seems to be a non-issue for regular cars
zxrax@reddit
Probably a non-issue for most people, but personally I hate the way the brake pedal feels in our EV. It's (a small) part of why I prefer one pedal driving. I've even seen some journalists noting Porsche doesn't quite have pedal feel down when blending regen and friction braking in their EVs, at least as of a couple years ago.
But even if one pedal driving didn't exist I don't think the brake feel would've stopped me from buying the car.
strongmanass@reddit
One of the top complaints about performance EVs is unnatural pedal feel due to the brake blending between regen and friction, so it's not totally solved yet.
RadPhilosopher@reddit
Haven’t there been reports of people feeling dizzy in EV cars due to the re-gen braking
Captain_Alaska@reddit
Not quite to the same extent but hybrids also do a lot of regen braking, there’s been a solid like 3 decades worth of development on pedal feel here.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
We already have brake by wire which eliminates brake feel. There's no more "fade" feeling--you just press the brake and the car doesn't stop when you expect it to.
ShadeThief@reddit
This has been solved for over a decade. EVs and hybrids have been rolling off of assembly lines for years now with electronic boosters that digitally control pedal feel
BluesyMoo@reddit
The brake "feel" has seen lots of solutions from the racing simulator side. It has become a very tunable and reliable system that can be either pressure sensitive or position sensitive. There's force feedback as well, if you're thinking about the hydraulic ABS pulse.
willc2580@reddit
and now that the brakes are completely digital. Implementing pedals similar to those found in sim racing should be a lot easier.
Idk about taking the exact sim racing pedals and putting them in a car with this system, but it could happen in the future
ThePretzul@reddit
The problem with CVTs is not consumer acceptance. People were fine with driving them like any other automatic transmission.
The problem with CVTs was getting them to not fail catastrophically with standard use by consumers.
doerriec@reddit
Do you have to be up to date on your service fees for these brakes to work?
Twistedshakratree@reddit
Mercedes SLS AMG electric drive tho…
ycnz@reddit
I 100% trust the engineers building this to do a great, safe job.
I do not in the slightest, trust the MBA-wielding assholes who manage them not to fuck it up in the name of saving fifty cents.
dumahim@reddit
This just feels like another over-complication of an existing, proven system that's just going to be more expensive for something you'll rarely ever see a benefit from.
jorsiem@reddit
Can't wait to need IBM's Watson to do an fucking brake job. My mom's Volvo needs a damn tablet to do brake pads.
mrjost55@reddit
As someone who has dealt with aging brake fluid, seized calipers, rusted out brake lines, and more, this is exciting news. Following this development to see how it progresses.
glasswings363@reddit
Well that sure opens up interesting ways to sabotage a vehicle.
Snoo93079@reddit
So instead of cutting one line you cut a different one?
glasswings363@reddit
You can disable brake by wire, steer by wire, primary power and EPB by dragging the low-voltage bus down to zero.
A particularly fun fault in any one must-work motor has the potential to disable everything.
Or the one wire you cut is the battery, which is something fire department might do, not realizing that they've made the tow guys life harder.
This applies regardless of primary power type, it's not an electric car thing.
Snoo93079@reddit
Oh no, won't somebody think about the tow guy!
glasswings363@reddit
Unironically: think of the tow guy.
Snoo93079@reddit
Sure, but this place is full of such luddites that they'd kneecap new technology for fear of
*checks notes*
Making the tow guy adapt
strongmanass@reddit
If it's one of the unscrupulous ones that basically hold your car for ransom they can get fucked. But a situation involving the fire department is probably a crash and in that case I do have sympathy for anyone who has to remove the debris, especially if there are glass shards, injuries, and blood involved.
Ok-Season-7010@reddit
More electronic/software control of a vehicle over a mechanical one
ThePretzul@reddit
That already exists in virtually every modern car.
Any car with ABS can override your pedal inputs for both throttle and braking already.
Snoo93079@reddit
ICE engines use way more software than ICE bros will ever admit.
Ok-Season-7010@reddit
I agree on this
xdrift0rx@reddit
Well with no brake fluid, that means track days won't have to worry about boiling brake fluid now. 🤷
Foe117@reddit
so if signal is lost or broken, it fails on? (brake calipers close on rotor)
zman0900@reddit
That would seem like the only sane way to do it, like with air brakes. Spring or some other mechanical failsafe that would be held open when powered.
lost_tacos@reddit
This doesn't sound good from a repairability point of view. What special software or tool is needed to retract the piston/clamping mechanism to allow for new pads? Another log to throw on the right to repair fire.
And with dealers having problems keeping mechanics due to flat rate pricing, who is going to do brake jobs?
Snazzy21@reddit
Already seeing it with Hyundai requiring dealership scan tool to do brake jobs. Maybe I wouldn't be so anti technology if regulators did their fucking job, but no.
Replacing a length of wire is a lot easier that a brake line, but the potential for DRM on electronic brakes worries me (just one of many concerns).
sd140220@reddit
The airplane you ride in is probably already fly by wire; I know it seems concerning but you already trust your life to mechatronics and software all the time.
Snazzy21@reddit
Planes dont last as long. Or more specifically, the number of old cars driving around exceeds old jet liners, so you're more likely to be affected by attrition with old cars.
And planes have strict maintenance schedules that operators must meet, cars in some places don't get inspected ever, and even more only get smogged.
Sarniezz@reddit
Planes have redundancies.
Gravesnear@reddit
And regular maintenence and checks
Fieryshit@reddit
As long as the brakes are fail-safe (braking when de-energized), I don't see the problem with this.
ALaLaLa98@reddit
Who looked at this and thought "this is a good idea"?
whale-tail@reddit
There are a number of engineering benefits. Less mass, one less entire system to integrate, less rolling resistance, more precise wheel braking control allowing for better tuning and performance, the list goes on. Car companies generally don't fuck over consumers just for the hell of it
willpc14@reddit
I'm sorry, but this goes against my preconceived notions, so I refuse to believe it /s
gumol@reddit
Brembo, probably
yobo9193@reddit
Elon Musk and his cheerleaders, probably
humjaba@reddit
In this thread - a bunch of people that don’t realize the car they already drive doesn’t have a mechanical connection to their brakes. I know first hand most every Ford, GM, Hyundai/Kia released in the last 5 years has brake-by-wire already. The brake pedal is a simulator, and a pump generates hydraulic brake pressure. This system just removes the middle man and acts on the brakes directly.
It’ll also have dual power sources on at least one of the axles - alternator + 12v battery on a car, dcfc + 12v battery on an EV. The engineers aren’t stupid, and functional safety is taken very seriously
Famous_Attention5861@reddit
The US vehicles have had mandated dual-circuit brake systems since 1967, which use a tandem master cylinder to operate two independent hydraulic circuits. This redundancy ensures that if one circuit fails (e.g., front brakes leak), the other circuit (e.g., rear brakes) still operates to stop the vehicle. It is a critical safety feature designed for failure mitigation. One of these circuits should work to stop the vehicle even if the car has a loss of electrical power.
time_to_reset@reddit
You also aren't replacing the entire hydraulic system. My understanding is that brake-by-wire simply connects the pedal to a computer that handles the hydraulic pressure on the calipers instead of the driver actually pushing the brake fluid themselves.
Famous_Attention5861@reddit
My understanding is that in the event of a loss of electric power at speed, the hydraulics in a brake by wire system are still be activated by pushing the brake fluid using the brake pedal. Without the redundant hydraulics for backup how does a non-hydraulic brake by wire system handle a loss of electric power at speed?
olek2012@reddit
That’s awesome! I’m excited to see where this tech takes us. Just because hydraulic was the standard for so long doesn’t mean they’re inherently better or more reliable. If this new system improved on the existing method I’m all for it!
BlackDS@reddit
Nope no thanks
thefanciestcat@reddit
I don't want to be an early adopter, but it's a cool idea.
Historical_Cable9719@reddit
So after you crash they can flash an OTA to fix it. Nice
noSSD4me@reddit
Correct me if I'm wrong, but CT5-V Blackwing utilizes brake-by-wire system, and it seems to function pretty good for what it's worth. The car still does the dedicated hydraulic line as a safety measure. I'm not sure any of the owners gave this brake system a truly rigorous tracking testing to see how it can perform🤔
ThePretzul@reddit
The Blackwing and Corvette use a brake by wire system that still retains hydraulic backup.
The brakes still work without the BBW system functioning, it’s just adjusting the amount of computerized brake boost to adjust pedal feel and travel profiles. Feels the same as driving an old car without power brakes when it isn’t operating (such as when the car is turned off).
redcatmanfoo@reddit
But if I load up my Blackwing with BBW will it still stop or have I overloaded the brakes with all that extra weight.
Independent_Good5423@reddit
Its really funny because cars technically has 3 "brakes" for redundancy in case 1 fails, but handbrakes is now electronic and now the front brakes too?
bruh, even these electronic door knob still fail sometimes and now if your car die on the road you wont be able to brake??
disrupter87@reddit
Why? Hydraulics work well enough for eeeeeeeeeeeveryone to stop their car just fine. No need to mess around with it for the sake of some engineers vanity project. Like timing belts and chains. Some bright spark gave us wet belts, then what happened... reliability went back to the 1940s.
Astramael@reddit
There are ways to implement this that is reliable and safe. We don’t yet know if those methods were utilized yet for Brembo’s implementation. I hope they did.
fangelo2@reddit
I don’t even like the electric parking brakes on cars now. I’ve had a couple of cars in the past that had brakes fail and the thing that saved me was that parking brake with the steel cable going directly to the brake. If everything goes to hell, I want that simple mechanical brake
gumol@reddit
you had multiple cars where hydraulic brakes failed, and that’s a reason to keep hydraulic brakes around?
Santa_Ricotta69@reddit
Well, my car was the first to ever have electronic brake force distribution (W211 Benz) and when the pump finally went bad like everyone said it would, I lost 95% of braking on the highway in heavy traffic.
Good luck!
Faceit_Solveit@reddit
Consider the possibility that this could be done wirelessly. FlexRay for example.
If a system can be reduced in weight and improved in performance, it will be.
This is one reason why battery chemistry and architecture is a fertile field for research. Even lithium weighs too much! Lol
grabsomeplates@reddit
Cars have absolutely had mechanical brakes and no hydraulics in the past, but the incorrect title is likely designed to drive engagement, which I am playing into right now.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
That's what the "modern" qualifier was for.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
I wonder if this technology will brake out in the rest of the auto industry…
Baby-girl-54321@reddit
Cool tech, but I’ll trust old school hydraulics over software any day.
bbull412@reddit
Ho no fuse as blown EXPLOSION