Expat communities in Asia seem so much better when there’s no English teachers
Posted by Able-Confidence-4182@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 37 comments
I left Singapore as expat a few years ago to work in Korea, and then Taiwan. I didn’t realize how much English teachers made up the western communities and how there was a lack of professionals in other industries. It really changes the entire vibe of the expat community,but also what you read online. Theres much less complaining about the locals, and more integration, anyone else feel this way?
Bomboclaat_Babylon@reddit
I don't come across English teachers too often. Not my social circle, but expats in Singapore are awful. They're constantly trying to one up each other and every time you meet anyone there's this dance of guaging who makes the most money and who has the highest position and it must be settled so we all know who is the most important and then act like they're just as important in an after work social setting, because you know, work is everything and you're worthless without your job, and what is there in life beyond work and cheating on your wife and bragging about both in corporate speak?
I've spent time with groups of English teachers in the past. They can be sort of "low class" and crass and unprofessional, but some of them are really good people, just doing a job. Can't say the same for expats working in Singapore. All corporate robots with no personality beyond work. At least a drunk English teacher can talk about something other than Tesla and KPIs.
Foreign_Emphasis_470@reddit
These are the expats in finance. Plenty of them in Singapore.
I work in KL nearby as en engineer in oil and gas. It's a completely different bunch.
Shibari_Inu69@reddit
Those expats are just adopting the local culture. That’s exactly how a lot of Singaporeans are, so it’s no wonder that’s the kind of expat the place attracts
gameover281997@reddit
It’s not the profession, it’s that it’s very hard for foreigners to get jobs anywhere in Asia other than being English teachers that pay a different wage. If other careers were as easy and decently paid as English teaching, you’d see expats doing that instead, and the same behavior would ensue.
BigwaveBay@reddit
There’s the whole world of international teaching which is different than ESL. For all intents and purposes, it’s not harder to really start but requires more planning during university. And, you generally have to start in a less than ideal location. ESL people start in better places; generally,
gameover281997@reddit
There are international school programs that have ESL. Also, it’s called English Literature technically for most programs at international schools, but it’s still ESL on a root level since these kids are still learning English as a second language regardless. It’s still ESL however you want to look at it across Asia even if they have different names for it in most international school programs (although many still offer ESL classes on the side beyond the English literature classes).
hater4life22@reddit
I’d actually say English teachers, at least in Japan, are more integrated than other “expats” because their lifestyles are closer to everyday people compared to the people who came on expat packages.
I actually feel the real divide in the immigrant communities are people married to locals vs. not.
masegesege_@reddit
Teaching English is one of the few ways for foreigners to live and work in Asia, and it’s not really a very fulfilling job.
On top of that, the social dynamics of Japan, Taiwan, Korea, etc. are just different from their countries of origin. It’s hard to build lasting friendships with other foreigners because they often leave after 2, 3 years. And even with proficiency in the local language it’s also hard to make genuine connections with locals because their of socializing is not the same.
And it doesn’t help that transitioning out of Asia very difficult, especially when you’ve been working a (relatively comfortable) job for a few years that doesn’t actually heal your resume that much.
The happiest expats I’ve seen have families of their own. Getting that going has its own difficulties though.
BuyHigh_S3llLow@reddit
I do think if a white person went to go work and live in an Asian country, it might give them more empathy and understanding towards immigrants in their own countries after. Its probably an personally enriching experience and learn and go through alot of immigrants in your country go through (language barriers, different social dynamics/culture, etc.)
masegesege_@reddit
It’s definitely a great experience for at a year or two.
I oversee expats who come to my country to be teachers and a lot of them have a great time at first. They learn a lot about themselves, a different country and culture, and definitely get a different perspective on the immigrant experience.
It’s usually after about a year (sometimes a bit longer) that they start to feel isolated, lonely, confused. Friends have come and gone, others have found a more concrete place in the new country (SO, husband, wife, kids, better job, different location), and the rest are just left to wonder if they meant to stay there or leave while nothing and no one gives them any guidance.
BuyHigh_S3llLow@reddit
Yah even that second negative part is similar to what alot of immigrants in the west face too. Doing it long enough gives you exposure to what immigrants feel, both the positives AND negatives. Alot of asians who come to the west now still feel lonely, isolated and just work. Even the ones in higher echelon careers earning alot of money still sometimes ask themselves "is the money worth this isolation and loneliness?". Many of their friends back home in their "poor countries" are getting married and having multiple kids while they got this grand privilege to work and earn US dollars but years go by and they are struggling to form community and relationships to settle down. Its pretty sad.
masegesege_@reddit
Not only that but a lot of Asians go to another country intending to eventually leave but then their kids identify more with the new country than the original one which makes it incredibly difficult to return home, not to mention personalities and values don’t exactly line up either.
BuyHigh_S3llLow@reddit
I wouldnt say its the majority. Majority of asians immigrating to the west were in the latest 1900s to 2000s and started shrinking by the 2010s onwards. The newer ones 2010s onwards tend to just want to come and make some USD and leave or study and work a few years. The older ones pre-2010 was mostly in it for the long haul since the asia they grew up when they were younger was a shithole. They had no intention of coming back and never could have predicted how much Asian countries could have developed within their lifetime. Can you imagine the korean immigrants after korean war wanting to come back to Korea? Could you imagine chinese immigrants after 10s of millions dying from the cultural revolution wanting to come back to china? Can you imagine vietnamese, laos and cambodians who witness the horrors of the vietnam war and the khmer rouge wanting to go back? Absolutely not. Most were originally in it for the long haul to build a life in New lands. Its just the more recent immigrants who tend to be wealthier asians who are more short term.
DifferentWindow1436@reddit
I work in Japan and Korea (based in Japan). Expat groups can be very, very segmented. In Japan, there are a lot of English teachers. This is where you see "western" and a lot of white guys (and they are mainly guys). What you don't necessarily notice until you've been here awhile is how many Asian (non-Japanese) there are here. It far surpasses westerners.
Within that western expat community you have a few groups -
The interesting thing is how little these groups mix. I am in the 3rd group. I know where to find the ESL guys (hint: The Hub), but I almost never interact with them. I rarely run into IT people. If I do, it's the higher end guys.
The ESL teachers, tbf, are neither paid nor treated well. It's a bit of a trick really. You come over when you are young and better looking, needing zero Japanese (or Korean) and get paid just enough to live. It's fine when you are 25 y/o. It's not designed to be long term, but nobody really tells you that and you find that people that stay are disillusioned and often trapped.
No-Jackfruit3211@reddit
I am an Asian woman in japan.
I own my own businesses ( I do have a few) . Let me tell you one thing:we are invisible.
This is good and bad.
BuyHigh_S3llLow@reddit
When I lived in asia as an Asian American I also felt somewhat similar. Lol we are basically ninjas because we blend in and people will talk to us like locals and realizing we are not after we cant speak the local language. Lol the benefit i notice though in touristy areas is scammers and people trying to sell shit target me less compared to white people since they dont know im a foreigner. Dating is kinda in a wierd situation because you dont fit in a specific box like "white american" or "asian from asia", youre kinda in a wierd box most of the world doesnt understand.
No-Jackfruit3211@reddit
You know I told my fiance the exact same thing about the scammers . This is a superpower when youre traveling 😅
Being a brown Asian i can walk on the streets of Bali or Phuket without being harassed. In Hawaii we got to enter places for free (like Diamond head) because i "look like someone's neice"..in Japan - they actually hand me invitations to anti foreigner protests 😅
My fiance is white and at Haneda airport they pulled him aside and randomly swabbed him. It was his first time traveling internationally in 15 years and got randomly pulled aside 🙄🙄
BigwaveBay@reddit
Yeah, I did ESL until I was in my mid 30s. I was super lucky and got a job at a Hong Kong University with my masters making decent money with 5 months vacation a year. But eventually it was get your PhD or be gone. Covid made my decision easy which resulted in an actual license to teach and instead of ESL I’ll soon be at an international school.
You’re correct though. ESL regardless is not meant to be a career (at least abroad; you could make it a career at HS in the states). It can be a great stepping stone. Anecdotally, I’ve seen most people use it as that. I’d guess it’s just a natural human survival mechanism to realize and look to advance careers.
Different expat communities mix different. Where I was at, engineers to teachers to F4 drivers all mixed pretty well. I always spent equal time with locals.
binzoma@reddit
english teacher expats = young people doing a working holiday
not necc people intending to move overseas long term, or older/established
if you dont find being around young people having a travel experience thats fine, but you dont need to be a jerk or elitist about it
werchoosingusername@reddit
Actually most English teachers whom I come across on social platforms are rather the opposite. They are rarely living in the expat bubble and they are also not complaining as the entitled ones. At least in China.
Proof-Phase-5541@reddit
I think this can be credited to Chinese social culture, too. They do see a big difference between Chinese vs. Westerners, but they are curious and talkative people, and will welcome foreigners to spend time with them.
ItsReemAlBlahBlahDee@reddit
Yup. Unfortunately my own British friends complain about this in Dubai lol. They find that the domination of one nationality causes more racism and classism towards others. It’s also prevalent in the Dubai British mum’s influencer community.
Exotic-Philosopher-6@reddit
That sounds like a community I never want to be apart of
forreddituse2@reddit
Many of the English teachers are the people you find in r/IWantOut. What can you expect from them?
CorneliusSoctifo@reddit
Wait so you mean people that are upset with their everyday lives and problems that they are 90% responsible for, that took the easiest way out, and it didn't fix anything are the loudest?
Color me shocked
Cinderpath@reddit
How are these people, lowly English teachers, responsible for 90% responsible for? They are not running tech companies or dodging corporate taxes in the billions. Seriously, this is moronic!🙄🙄👌🏼👌🏼
forreddituse2@reddit
And after a few decades jumping in Asian countries, they found there is no career growth, no salary growth, returning home becomes even more impossible, retirement becomes an issue, then where the anxiety goes to?
Ok_Type_5798@reddit
That's great for you - but most of them ended up in Thailand / Cambodia.
Sufficient-Job7098@reddit
Well I am an immigrant in US. We don’t get expats who are English teachers. We don’t even get expats, most of us are immigrants, we work all kinds of jobs.
I believe we tend to be well integrated. I always assumed that it was because we are immigrants.
Bomboclaat_Babylon@reddit
There are millions of expats in the US.
Sufficient-Job7098@reddit
Well yes US is big country so I am sure there are many expats too.
hezaa0706d@reddit
I’m an English teacher in Tokyo and the most integrated people I know are myself and other long term English teachers. Expat finance Bros are easily the least integrated.
FinestTreesInDa7Seas@reddit
I haven't liked any English speaking expats that I've met in any Asian countries, aside from Japan.
Healthy-Standard8814@reddit
Honestly, sounds like more of a you problem.
Catcher_Thelonious@reddit
Unsure how Singapote, Korea, and Taiwan figure into your generalization. Do you have any data that correlates number of English teachers to problems in expat communities? What kind of problems are you referring to? How do you define expat communities?
p3chapai@reddit
My experience has been that English teachers, at least here in Japan, can get very jaded once they've been here a while. It's mostly a dead-end job and many who teach English here don't really have a passion for teaching - it was just their ticket to Japan.
I was going to say I don't have many in my social circle though. But as I was typing I realized I work so much that I don't really have a social circle anymore anyway.
alittledanger@reddit
I taught English in Korea for four years. I also briefly dated a foreign woman who was high up at a foreign company’s office in Seoul so I got a little bit of insight in both sides.
Generally, corporate types in Seoul are feted more by the locals because of Korean social dynamics.They are also dealing with much, much smaller subset of the population than teachers. Teachers are basically dealing with the general public so they get exposed to a lot of communities that someone working at Samsung or Hyundai would not. So people don’t get to experience some of the downsides of living in Korea that teachers do.
This is where a lot of complaining comes from.