The Japanese started just like the Chinese?
Posted by QBM7@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 49 comments
Hello everyone,
In the recent years we have been seeing a lot of Chinese cars on the roads and the media. Heavy marketing, a lot of options, low prices..etc.
Can we go back to how some Japanese luxury brands started? Low prices, competitive options to western cars, heavy marketing. Marketing was so pushed that some brands didn’t even sell their first model in their home country but instead in the market where they wanted to promote themselves in… aka Lexus. The name itself doesn’t have a relevant meaning.
Don’t take this debate as hate view towards Asian cars because obviously each automaker has their customer. But till this day, despite all the experience that Japanese cars have gained through the years you can still feel the difference when riding in a premium European made car and the most luxurious Asian car available, cars started there so they have over 100 years of experience it’s as simple as that.
To the owners of the Asian cars, specifically what they call “luxury” Asian cars, why Asian? If you live there i understand, but overseas, why? And how do you compare it to the European equivalents?
To help you understand how I view them, I see the Japanese market or Asian market in general a every economical market, luxury is understated and not so important because their culture itself is beautiful and full of grace so they don’t really need the extra luxury in their lifestyle, therefore their “real cars” didnt even focus on luxury At the first place.. Toyota, Nissan,Kia,suzuki. But when there’s a brand who is trying to copy and indeed started as a copy cat to Europeans just to compete, it becomes silly. Stay in what you should be producing why make something that you don’t need?
On the other hand the west didnt have much luxury in their culture but instead they admired it and therefore adopted it. In results they produced luxury vehicles.
I don’t know give me your opinion?
DependentAd235@reddit
“ the owners of the Asian cars, specifically what they call “luxury” Asian cars, why Asian? ”
My Acura is almost as nice as than most European models. In fact I would argue nicer because it has buttons. I think some recent model BMWs have over embraced the screens.
Most of the rest is a matter of styling and taste.
Japanese car maintenance is just cheaper. I used to own a Golf TDI so not a BMW but even that was pricy on repairs, though fairly infrequent.
QBM7@reddit (OP)
What do you mean why Asian? Because it’s Asian? Since when did Asians make luxury vehicles before they discovered Mercedes had a star in their bonnet? Yes your Acura is nice and cheaper because it’s Asian, take it down a highway at 140mph and do that in its Volkswagen counterpart and see the difference? Then you will know why it’s Asian. Asians focused on economical travel and not luxury, even if they have been doing it for a long time now still you can see that they are not there yet. Happy that you are enjoying your Acura by the way !
AwesomnusRadicus@reddit
They did not start making luxury vehicles because of Mercedes having a star on that bonnet...what???? They saw a market segment dominated by complacent companies and saw an opening that would make them money.
Remember brands do not care about status or history or any of the other things, only the fact that it makes them "exclusive". Companies exist to do one thing: make money.
Your talking points make absolutely no sense. For some luxury is gadgets. For some it's build quality. And for some reliability trumps them all - that the product you paid so much money for works as it should without worry.
jrileyy229@reddit
So you're saying Lexus shouldn't exist? They made a better luxury sedan than the Europeans did, and for less money....and they sold them as fast as they could build them... Seems like a pretty good reason to exist
QBM7@reddit (OP)
Well said, but does the market really need them? It’s either luxury or not, luxury also comes with what’s underneath the body, chassis, control arms..etc and the Europeans do that stuff in their luxury cars in a better way therefore the better ride. Why can’t Toyota just produce premium cars, economical but with nice options and not make an entire brand just to copy ? Also when you mentioned pricing, luxury is luxury and its client base will not have price In mind as much as the level of excellence and history of the brand.
jrileyy229@reddit
By that logic you're saying the market only needs one brand per segment? That's silly.
Even the brands you consider "luxury" sell lots of entry level cars.. BMWs top seller is X3... There's nothing different under the car than a Ford escape that would make any difference to the type of people buying them.
You're absolutely wrong that price doesn't matter in these luxury brands. There's a reason the X3 is a top seller, you get the BMW brand and image without the big price tag. There's a reason the Lexus LS was a game changer when it came out.. because it was 35k when the European heavy hitters were 45k. Same reason Cadillac survives today... They can match the Germans in performance and technology in the super saloon category,. But for less money
SailingSpark@reddit
You also forget that BMW, MB, and even VW sell a lot of low end versions and even whole cars they do not sell in the US. There are tons of cars with small diesels that never make it to the US.
QBM7@reddit (OP)
Im sorry you will need to see the underneath of a bmw x3 and an escape, escape aside, what Lexus model competes with the x3 or glc? An Rx Lexus right? Now take the big grille out and the thick windows out and check the chassis and what’s holding the wheels, same exact parts as a rav4 and highlander which aren’t luxury.
The x3 can’t be considered upper level luxury but depends on trim for sure, an alpina version of it though is totally luxury and it’s based on what? An x3 which is a luxury model itself, but the RX based on a highlander and rav4 which aren’t luxury nor close to premium it terms of refinement, a basic 2.0 litre x3 feels more refined in terms of power delivery than Japanese vehicles.
What Toyota is doing here is using the branding trick, Lexus badge, which has no meaning, Lexus name, which silly them they had to say it’s “luxury exports to the US” what a brand name. Embarrassing enough. And they are using platforms from Toyota, which isn’t even near what Volkswagen or Skoda provide in terms of refinement and quality. Reliability alone is enough as those European brands are reliable enough in their continent, not everyone drives Japanese in Europe mostly are European cars, so what ? If they were that unreliable why would the Europeans buy them?… giving me double glazed glass and some wood and bit of options carried from a Mercedes will not make you luxury. This was my point at the first place
jrileyy229@reddit
Why do you care what's under the car? Whether it's a Toyota control arm in a Lexus or a BMW control arm... It doesn't matter to 99.99% of people buying a x3 or an RX. There's nothing luxury about a control arm no matter what brand.
I don't understand why you keep talking about under the car in small cheap crossovers bought as commuter. You act like BMW is using their best parts in th base model x3... It's built as cheap as possible. A Lexus is a Toyota that has the upscale interior and styling to go up market. I'd rather have a lexus that is based on a Toyota... Parts will be exponentially cheaper
QBM7@reddit (OP)
You have just described the Lexus and infinite,Acura, client base. “ why do you care about what’s under the car” you know? Someone who will go right ahead and purchase a European vehicle instead of Lexus despite knowing that service will be twice as expensive is the kind of person who cares about their safety when driving at high speeds, 170+ with stability and quiet cabin. Doing that in a Lexus with just bit of wind on a rainy day will make the car go right and left. From experience with the Korean genesis as well. It’s the little things that separate their engineers and the European ones, forget German. Look at Volvo?
jrileyy229@reddit
Two different things... You keep talking about what's under the car is "luxury"... Now you're talking about performance.
MegaTurboLaser@reddit
Lexus is not "luxury exports to usa". Don't repeat this BS.
You sound like a guy, who has ZERO experience with both Lexus and their european counterparts. They ARE less dependable, and even Europeans know this.
And this bit about "take this and that away, and you have some parts shared between models". No shit, that's how contemporary automotive production works. Things You mentioned (design, sound deafening) and things You didn't (material quality, comfort) make Lexus a premium brand above Toyota.
And one more thing: NX is a direct competitor to X3.
QBM7@reddit (OP)
Language my friend, I don’t have ZERO experience with Lexus or its products, I’ve spent a lot of time than you have ever spent in any Lexus model, 9 LS models, an is350, and ES. start with the ES? covered up Camry, leather? Yes, wood? Yes, ride? Camry taxi. Engine noise? A lot. A bmw 520i? None of that and just a little push down the pedal will move the car, in those Lexus models you have to push and push to get going. And you mentioned NX, as if it’s any better. At least I mentioned RX to bring something nicer to the debate. NC or UX are two embarrassing products to have and just shows how it’s all copy and paste from cheap Toyota products.
MegaTurboLaser@reddit
And yet You pull up with this nonsense! A typical BMW fanboy.
But You made one point right: UX is a letdown, even I will admit that.
But ES is nothing like a 5 series. It's a car for a different audience. And You say "covered up Camry" like it is a bad thing! Hilarious!
I'll take an ES over a BMW 5 every day, and twice on the sunday.
QBM7@reddit (OP)
It’s not me! It’s Lexus ! They are comparing it to the 5, or what else will you compare to the 5? Their LS? That car is way too perfect especially the 500 models otherwise the previous ones were copy paste from merc and bmw. You know one original Lexus product that was perfect? Comfortable and quiet and well built. Really well built, the GS 2013 and up. Again the previous models were just copy paste. I can’t think of anything Japanese as good as the GS and I think it was on the same platform as the LS.
Kyle_2099@reddit
>There's a reason the X3 is a top seller, you get the BMW brand and image without the big price tag.
On the contrary, when you buy a car like an X3 or a 1-series, you don't really get the image of a BMW driver, which is usually a successful person with lots of money, who's a bit arrogant, but knows what good things are.
Instead you get the image of a person who doesn't know much about cars, and can't really afford a good one, but he knows that BMW is an expensive name. So BMW made a cheap car with an expensive badge attached to it, and got him on the hook for a CRAZY car loan.
It's always the way. Whenever someone is flashy with the cheapest version of an expensive brand, that's when you know their credit card debt is huge.
QBM7@reddit (OP)
You are talking about the US/CA market. Apply the same thing in Africa? South America? Turkey? Even if it’s just a base x3, they cost more In those countries, so buying one x3 is like paying for two in some of those countries. It’s still a German automobile.
Kyle_2099@reddit
That is an even bigger reason why they are idiots, now they pay a 3x idiot tax to say they have a german car, instead of just a 1x idiot tax.
jrileyy229@reddit
That's only how car guys think. Sally and Susie up the road just see BMW... They don't think that it's the cheapest model in the lineup and try to draw some conclusions from that
Kyle_2099@reddit
Not only how the car guys think but also the bailiffs who come and take away their X3 or Merc A-Class on a low loader, because they can't pay their bills.
jrileyy229@reddit
I'm going to disagree with you. There are just as many people who are in bad financial spots because they sprung for the top model S class in order to maintain an appearance
Kyle_2099@reddit
That's not really a disagreement, that is just a more extreme level of the same kind of idiots
DependentAd235@reddit
“ Europeans do that stuff in their luxury cars in a better way therefore the better ride.”
Naw. The buttonless trend is not “better.” You might like it but you can’t just blanket statement better.
(Italian cars are pretty as hell.)
QBM7@reddit (OP)
British and Italian machines are in a classification of their own, can’t even compare them to Germans, yes the Germans maybe more precise with some things, but Italians and British do it in their own way and it’s great
MnMz91@reddit
You know, China is basically all the luxury car brand's biggest market right? So I think they know a thing or two about luxury. I was in China a few years ago, and their cars are amazing in terms of technology and luxury. And yes, they had QA and copyright issues, but in terms of luxury, they are 100% on par with most European brands. I can't imagine what they can accomplish now.
Maybe you should go there and ride in one and see for yourself.
QBM7@reddit (OP)
We have a lot of them where I live actually, and yes sales are up there, some friends actually have some models and when you ask why Chinese they will say two things, will either mention price or options. Their options I think are silly, tablets are too large waaay too large, quality is wonderful… for the first 1 year, inside its smells like plastics or no smell at all not even brand new vehicle smell or leather smell. I get your point Im sure you’ve loved it there, but maybe for the buyer who doesn’t value brand experience of auto making. Also we have parts supply issue here since the day they came to the market. And parts twice or three times as expensive as an S class Mercedes .
MnMz91@reddit
Isn't it a good thing the car doesn't have any smell? lol. I think experience and value of automaking ended a long time ago with all the major car manufacturers. Nowadays its all about who can sell the most, and that equates to making generic SUVs that are EPA-friendly or electric. That's just the way it is with the car industry. So the Chinese brands really do stand out by making more unique offerings at a much cheaper price.
Heck, during my previous trip in China, I sat in a Chinese MPV, and it felt like a luxury lounge. I can't say the same for other European car brands besides ultra luxury car makers (Rolls-Royce, Maybach, etc.)
QBM7@reddit (OP)
I agree, if only each of them focused on their brand vision and tradition instead of numbers of sales, but I feel like this bubble will pop someday. Maybe very soon. These automakers will and are starting to wake up and notice that people don’t enjoy the higher prices.
No_Organization_7509@reddit
The difference is that the Japanese made competitive cars that were reliable. The Koreans thought they could compete just on price and to this day they still haven't dominated sales because of the amount of drivetrain issues they have. The Chinese, from what I can tell from afar since I can't buy them in America, are largely falling into the same trap.
QBM7@reddit (OP)
Like your comment, sometimes I think if Mercedes or Audi were as reliable as Toyota, will they sell more? Or will people buy lexus because of cheaper price. Where I live there are a lot of people buying Chinese because of price point only and how much options they have, reliability is not on their paper. I think price affects the Germans more than reliability. Also I only hear about the unreliability issues in the US market tbh I don’t know what are they selling to the people there, never heard a Kia has engine problems till the Americans came up with it.
Middle-Jackfruit-896@reddit
Why does any business do anything?
To make money, and more of it.
The Japanese made luxury cars because there is more profit margin per vehicle. If they sell enough of them they increase their market share and their profit.
In the 1980s, the buyer who bought a Camry but wanted something nicer for their next vehicle could by a Cressida (a beautiful car) but there was nothing from Toyota that competed on a prestige level with the luxury brands. So Lexus created one so they could sell them an ES250 or an LS400 for their next vehicle, and to poach consumers who would previously have shopped the German brands, Volvo or Saab.
L_Outsider@reddit
Your point is a bit convoluted and I'm not sure I understand it. But Japanese manufacturers became popular by making cheap, dependable yet well engineered cars. As far as we know today, Chinese cars are mostly just cheap.
You have to realize that Japan was a developed nation before WW2, making an industrial product wasn't something new. Going upmarket at some point was a logical choice due to the higher margins.
Regarding the stagnation, it is unfortunately happening all over Japan, not just with cars, from tech to demography. Again, remember that from 1990 to 2000, Japan had no growth and they've been having a hard time catching up.
rainydevil7@reddit
Japan started by making cheap shitboxes, and eventually the quality became better. It's very similar to what happened to the Korean manufacturers, although Hyundai has not seen their quality rise as much as Toyota.
L_Outsider@reddit
I disagree, Japanese cars were always well built, maybe not up to modern standards but at the time it was as good or better than the US and European built competition. Korean cars used to be disposable (still are perhaps ?).
QBM7@reddit (OP)
Wonderful comment actually, you convinced to tolerate their products a bit ahaha, as you mentioned Japan has indeed reached to a point where we are not seeing anything new from them?? They developed everything to a high level till they lost inspiration maybe?
L_Outsider@reddit
I'm not sure what's going on tbh, they're not having a lot of kids and it could be combined with a lack of aspiration. In the west, our societies are very aspirational, it's always about the next big thing. Study well in school and you'll get a good job, get a good job and you'll be able to buy whatever you want, switch jobs/careers to get more money or free time, get married, have kids, raise your kids well so they can do well in school, and it goes on and on. Brands have adapted and are always trying to provide something different and possibly better(rarely better recently).
Japan on the other hand, seems to have a "good enough" mentality with their products, sometimes it's cool because you get a GR86 or 400Z, cars where less is more. But you also get most of the Acura lineup. Some other industries are still doing well, Sony still makes some of the best TVs, sound equipment and cameras.
Middle-Jackfruit-896@reddit
Why does any business do anything?
To make money, and more of it.
TiFist@reddit
The Japanese built a 30-year reputation for reliability before they even started to offer premium cars. Contrast that with Korean cars that are still trying to shed the image that they're less reliable than the competition 40 years later, but are pushing into luxury nonetheless.
The Chinese want to skip all the hard parts and go straight to E-Z mode.
UpbeatPhilosophySJ@reddit
Lol, what? You think their culture is so beautiful they aren't into Luxury? Have you met an Asian person? lololololol.
UpbeatPhilosophySJ@reddit
It's really about manufacturing coming out of WW2. It sucked everywhere, except Japan. Harley Davidson? Sucked. Volskwagen? Sucked. British cars? Sucked. GM? Sucked. They all had political/union issues that kneecapped their ability to improve. It was said if you got a car made on a Friday you were getting a bad car.
The Japanese didn't have those problems, made fantastic products and the engineering was an improvement.
My Hyundai I bought in 2012? Sucked. Terrible car. Asians aren't magical. They can build some shit cars that look great coming off the lot. My guess is when the hype dies down, the Chinese cars will be a "you get what you pay for" situation.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
Byd is definitely not making simple economy cars. They have cars that come equipped with their own drone platforms
QBM7@reddit (OP)
Please, the reason for my comment on this sub is exactly this! Yesterday I rode in a byd and that thing is not right… the tech is there, design is horrendous I don’t really like those sketchy designs the Chinese are coming up with, and the interior is.. the alcantara or whatever alcantara fake looking material started pilling already. Ride was fine i would say Camry like ride.
RandomGuyDroppingIn@reddit
I don't exactly know the point you're trying to make, but you're forgetting something incredibly fundamental about the Japanese market.
The reason that Japan has historically eschewed European luxury marques and embraced their own is one very simple reason - engine taxes. That's not a thing in most of the western world, but in Japan vehicles on the road are taxed based on their engine displacement. Have you ever noticed how the Japanese muscle models such as the Supra and Skyline conveniently put out 2998ccs/3.0L of displacement? This is purposeful. If you get above that displacement you incur higher road taxes. Anything above 4998ccs/5.0L similarly has even more of an increase.
There's also a size tax placed on Japanese vehicles. Cars that came over to North America under the Lexus and Acura umbrellas, primarily Japanese re-badged models, avoided these size taxes.
There is still a want of luxury in a package that circumvents both size and engine displacement taxes, hence why vehicles such as the Toyota Celsior (Lexus LS) and Nissan President (Infiniti Q45) exist. There are however individuals in Japan and Asian markets at large that are willing to pay both engine displacement and size taxes. German marques remain very popular in Japan. Every time I go over to Japan I see tons of Benzes and BMWs. It also periodically results in a situation where say someone that wants a V8 Challenger in Japan (there's plenty of them over there) may often pay more in road taxes than someone with a Ferrari Purosangue or Lamborghini Urus. Ultimately everything comes down to engine size and length of the vehicle.
The will to pay taxes and such has now made these type vehicles status symbols in Asian countries. You'll periodically read that foreign marques are often status symbols and it's very much true. However, Asia at large is also an incredibly nationalistic region of the world, and there are those individuals that want to purchase some degree of luxury in their vehicles that are home-made. Same reason people in America will go out and buy a Cadillac.
SovietPatrickStar@reddit
Many Chinese cars will be the worst vehicle you have ever driven. Especially cheap ICE ones.
Exemptions are ofc there but it is noticeable for now that they struggle to find the sweet spot of „the way westerners like their cars“.
Japanese and Korean cars (not the luxury brands/models) feel just the same as any other European cheap or baseline model, in some cases better.
A new Suzuki Swift vs a new VW Polo, the polo wins, vs a new Citroen C2, the Suzuki wins. I would say it’s not something you can generalize.
Even-Further@reddit
Depends on what specific model you are talking about. A Lexus LS that is maxed out with optional packages is one fine machine. Toyota is a huge company with strong financial resources. The amount of resources they put into the LS is pretty significant. The LS glides down the road incredibly smooth and quiet, especially if equipped with air suspension.
SailingSpark@reddit
You did forget one thing about Japanese cars. Their timing was impeccable. American cars were terrible in the 70s. Sloppily screwed together, most of them went down the road like a drunk boat, and they drank fuel at an alarming rate to feed huge V8s that barely made 120hp.
European cars were mostly sports or sporty cars that sold to a niche audience,
Japan came in with smaller cars that could do everything the big american land yachts could do. They were small, efficent, and screwed together with determination. Even with all that, it was their timing. The world was in the middle of an oil crisis as the Mid-east was flexing their muscle and cutting off oil to the US for our helping Israel in the Arab Israel war.
The last part was key. The Honda Civic CVCC engine could easily get 30MPG or more, while a chevy impala was luck to get double digit efficiency.
joe_6699@reddit
Reliability is something that is very difficult to reproduce. Japanese craftsmanship is on another level because of the Kaizen philosophy.
Distinct_Ad4230@reddit
because in brazil there are no 'native cars' haha everything is from somewhere else.
and the japanese cara are more beautiful IMO, better design
nissan for example produce some cara that are exclusive to brazil or south america so its great to feel the brand cares about the public and its not just bringing stuff from elsewhere
QBM7@reddit (OP)
I see, yeah I agree with you in terms of design, At one point I really liked how Lexus plays with their sharp lines and grilles and how Mazda is beautiful but you know? I see some people in Europe who almost hate those designs and that’s when you see how manufacturers should produce for their people. But the Asian market can’t say the same about European cars 😂 they like their designs too