Feeder Pilots Go/No Go
Posted by DueSympathy8122@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 49 comments
FedEx Feeder pilots / 135 guys — how much real world leeway do you have with weather decisions?
How much pushback do you get from ops or management if you delay or cancel for weather?
I know 135.219 exists, but I’m curious how this actually plays out in practice like…
For example: let’s say everything is technically legal, but your entire route is under a Convective SIGMET with a solid line of storms from the Midwest to the Gulf. Would you realistically get support for sitting it down, or is there pressure to “find a gap” and go?
YupYup_3@reddit
Do you think it’s different at a big airline? The only weather delays I have flying the 737 are created by ATC. In 20 years of flying I’ve only ever canceled one flight for WX as the pilots decision; and that wasn’t really canceled by me, the owner of the 421 got nervous when I explained the ride quality and potential diversion.
When I flew 135 freight I was never “forced” to do anything. I loved that job and learned a lot about myself and flying.
DankVectorz@reddit
Created by atc? The only reason we shut stuff down for weather is when pilots start refusing to fly there.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
ATC closes airports all the time for weather and NY flow control decides when you can takeoff or not.
DankVectorz@reddit
Yes we close them when people start going around or refuse to fly through the weather. We don’t close it arbitrarily
BrtFrkwr@reddit
BS. ATC closes airports all the time for things like thunderstorms. I've been refused a visual approach when I had the airport in sight because there was a TRW near the field.
DankVectorz@reddit
Well that’s just silly. I’m either guessing it was a small field with an inexperienced controller or something else involved you didn’t know about.
Track_up@reddit
MDW as well. I've heard SW guys trying not to hold because weather didn't look bad at all based on their radar but according to the approach controller, the tower just refused to open up the airspace.
wo18xx200s@reddit
Wtf are you talking about?
Chicago Approach clears you for the approach. We clear you to land. There's no "refusing to open up the airspace."
Nobody is refusing approaches preemptively. If you want to fly through the cell on final that's your business. We'll still clear you to land. We (and C90) will keep things running until you start crying uncle.
If you don't want to fly through the cell on final then we start having discussions, because it doesn't make sense to send ten aircraft down final and have six go arounds.
Track_up@reddit
Maybe it was Chicago Center either way ORD was operating normally meanwhile MDW shut down the arrival they were given out the holding to SW pilots. And SW guys were asking if they can try the approach and apprently "other controllers" are refusing to open it.
So you don't need to fucking cursing :) im just a messenger passing along what i've heard on the radio
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Fort Lauderdale.
keikioaina@reddit
KTPA would like you to hold it's beer.
Gutter_Snoop@reddit
It's more nuanced than that.
When the weather gets bad enough to start creating undue hazards, pilots do as much as they can to get around the weather (not refusing to fly tyvm) within safe limits. ATC can only do so much to accommodate, so when delays and deviations make it such that ATC cannot reasonably do their jobs within their limits, you start seeing ATC-sponsored delays and ground stops.
So ultimately, it's the volume of necessary deviations that force ATC to start enacting delays and routing closures.
Unless there's a tornado or something that's causing ATC to evacuate the tower or center facility, anyways. Then ATC is the one closing up shop and doing re-routes. Although rare it happens. I was out flying 135 freight back around 2010 when the EF5 tornados were hitting northern Alabama and Georgia and at one point Atlanta center had to evacuate. Basically just said to me "if you don't hear from us in 10 minutes, contact BHM approach". ATL traffic got extremely buggered that night.
DankVectorz@reddit
Yes so it’s weather causing the delays not ATC
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
Obviously dude
DankVectorz@reddit
It’s apparently not so obvious to some
Davito32@reddit
If you fly regularly into the Caribbean you cancel every year for hurricanes. Same into places like HKG during monsoon season. Same to places like Boston or Montreal or anywhere wintery during snow storms.
cessna209@reddit
135 Beech 99 pilot/instructor here. I’ve cancelled a few flights due to weather, usually related to winter weather below legal minimums, freezing rain, or lack of deice equipment at the destination. I’ve never once received any pushback from management- my company’s operations lets UPS know and they come up with a new plan, usually trucking the cargo or flying it later in the day.
No_Currency5230@reddit
Ameriflight?
Gutter_Snoop@reddit
So, for one, a convective sigmet is only useful for telling you the weather might suck. No one except maybe the military gives any fucks about flying in an area covered by a convective sigmet. What you do care about is how angry the weather is enroute, at your destination, and the capabilities of your aircraft.
Not all storms are created equal, and neither are aircraft. There was plenty of stuff I'd happily fly a BE99 in that I wouldn't touch in a Cessna 210. There's plenty of stuff that looks incredibly angry on the radar that turns out to be nothing (southeast thunderstorms versus great plains thunderstorms, as an example). Unfortunately there's not really any way to know that without just diving in and seeing it up close.
This is not to say you should ignore regs. If your plane isn't rated for icing, you don't go into icing. If you don't have the equipment to shoot a 500rvr approach, you don't do it. No company can fire you for refusing to violate FARs. However, they will absolutely find a way to can you if you are constantly cancelling flights that are perfectly within reason but you're afraid of shooting an approach to 1800rvr or there's a little snow enroute.
Flyguy115@reddit
You are the pilot and therefore you have the final say. I have seen guys break regs and do other unsafe things because hazardous attitudes. I would not and yes I got a few phone calls where I told them exactly what the conditions were, what the regs were, what my options were, what I was planning on doing, and when. Most of the time you will be speaking with a flight follower ( not a Dispatcher that certified) that doesn’t know or understand regs and limitations. They will just repeat what you say to the next level so you have to make sure they understand. Safety always comes first. Remember you will be the one that will have to articulate why you made the choices you made. Also if you violate a reg no one will tell you before hand. You will just get a call after you land. I have personally seen guys end their careers by doing something wrong and getting a phone call when they landed.
MR_Weisenheimer@reddit
135 charter pilot here. As a professional pilot, the expectation is that you fly the aircraft to the legal limit whenever that is the mission. That includes: Max gross weight departures or full aft/nose heavy CG. Using your weather radar to find the gap in storms. Low viz take offs into icing conditions. Full duty day with minimum rest. Short runways on hot days in the mountains.
At the same time, I have rejected flights that were outside legal limits and not seen retribution from my employer. YMMV.
Gutter_Snoop@reddit
lol. On board weather radar. Wish I had had that back in my days of 135 freight.
MeatServo1@reddit
lol don’t have it now, even if the bendix is installed and turns on.
RGN_Preacher@reddit
The icing, turbulence and cloud to cloud lighting you see out the window indicates you’re in the red, maybe the purple.
Gutter_Snoop@reddit
You can see out the window?
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
This is why every flight school should have OpSpec, appropriate to their equipment and environment, with real-world consequences for deviating from them.
OnigiriEnthusiast@reddit
Why deviate when you can penetrate
weech@reddit
Sir this is a Wendy’s
willpc14@reddit
It's actually the Toronto Maple Leafs now
BeneficialDouble9189@reddit
We used to have a few sayings: there was one mentioned earlier asking the lines of "why check the weather?" The other was, "you're going somewhere. It might not be the destination, but you're not staying here." Maybe the company got paid for departures. I'm not sure.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
You’ll get hit with the famous “well it’s legal and the company would like you to try anyway!”
twistenstein@reddit
Dispatch says:
"Git gud"
Legal and valid alternates, why not.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
“Oh you had to divert and you’re stuck in fucking Rock Springs now? Lol get fucked”
twistenstein@reddit
135.xxx "Alternate must have a crew car to be considered valid"
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Congrats we found you a 1982 Crown Vic with a hole in the floor
twistenstein@reddit
We've checked the engine light, and found that the engine is missing.
Moseiselybrothers@reddit
When I was flying a 6 pack caravan at night for a UPS feeder they would bully and lie to you, say anything to get you to go. Was threatened with firing for not going on a night when tornados swept through my flight path that killed several people on the ground...Good times. Buuttt definitely teaches you what truly unsafe weather is and how to take a stand when you absolutely have to.
latedescent@reddit
Used to fly cancelled checks, and it was always the go/go now decision, unless you wanted to find another job. I think things have changed a lot though.
8BallSlap@reddit
Our joke back then when I flew checks was why check the weather when you’re going anyways
latedescent@reddit
2 rules of flying freight -
Never go below minimums
Never go missed
IndependentAlps9649@reddit
At how many hours do those FedEx feeder 208 jobs open up? I know 135 IFR pic is 1200, but I’m assuming minimum hours don’t make the cut right now
Right-Suggestion-667@reddit
If it’s legal you go
smoquin@reddit
If it’s legal you fly. Single pilot 135 flying is probably the hardest job in aviation. But it’s fun!
Captain_Billy@reddit
“Personal minimums” do not exist as a professional pilot. You fly to the legal limits of the environment and the airplane
Unfair-Bison-3946@reddit
Canadian Van Feeder pilot here. If you don't feel safe, you don't go. Never been given shit
discgolfpilot@reddit
Boxes don't complain about bumps and boxes have to go
usmcmech@reddit
There is a considerable difference between “unpleasant” vs “unsafe”.
135 freight will teach you that difference.
PilotDaddy66@reddit
Boxes don’t complain, and if you don’t fly someone else will
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
FedEx Feeder pilots / 135 guys — how much real world leeway do you have with weather decisions?
How much pushback do you get from ops or management if you delay or cancel for weather?
I know 135.219 exists, but I’m curious how this actually plays out in practice like…
For example: let’s say everything is technically legal, but your entire route is under a Convective SIGMET with a solid line of storms from the Midwest to the Gulf. Would you realistically get support for sitting it down, or is there pressure to “find a gap” and go?
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.