Maximum angle of bank in the circuit

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blindpylote@reddit

Maintain coordination and reasonable Gs and I personally think any legal bank angle is fine. 45 is the limit I place on my students though. And if they do go that steep we have a conversation about how shallow banks mean more stable patterns and better climb performance.

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Pilot-Imperialis@reddit

30 degrees. 20 in a climb.

Anything less and you’re going to be flying wide patterns and not within gliding range of a runway. Seeing as my one engine failure was on the downwind leg, I’m pretty strict about this with my students.

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MTINC@reddit (OP)

This is my thinking too, but I discussed this with my fellow instructors, and they all believe 15 degrees is the hard limit on climbing and turning in the circuit. They said there's a risk of stalling, even though I tried to explain if the wings aren't loaded in the climb 20 or 25 is perfectly fine. I guess thats why I noticed so many of our students fly such wide circuits

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FlapsupGearup@reddit

It doesn’t really matter as long as you’re unloading the plane but <30 is a standard guide. We push the nose over and crank a 45 degree bank in gliders during a rope break at 200ft agl. If you’re pulling back on the yoke, that’s when problems start.

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nodajinho@reddit

Exactly this. As long as you’re not pulling back, feel free to bank

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LowTimePilot@reddit

I'm probably going to be downvoted here but I always felt like this convo should focus on coordination instead of bank angle. A lot of pilots who were drilled 30 degrees have skid the plane into the ground on final.

I think a CFI giving a student a hard limit sets them up for failure when more time could be spent teaching coordination. At the very least, teaching coordination will turn that fatal event into a memorable lesson for the pilot while hitting the intensity law of learning.

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ltcterry@reddit

Coordination. Yes.

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Twarrior913@reddit

What I would recommend, and what I taught is that there are no hard limits for bank in a pattern, but if you’re having to pull a steep turn to keep a decent pattern, especially base to final, you’ll probably end up unstable. Not that I wanted my solo students to crank a 45° turn, but if I told them to “never bank beyond X angle of bank,” it could get them in a cross controlled base to final scenario (strong turn side crosswind pushes student beyond centerline while base to final, student hits 30° bank limit and still is getting blown past, uses rudder to cheat which causes a skid/increased yaw, raises the outside wing beyond 30° which the student “fixes,” by adding in opposite direction aileron, then corrects low altitude due to excessive drag caused by the multiple control surfaces which results in a slow, relatively low altitude, cross controlled, and now wing-loaded aircraft).

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flyboy7700@reddit

I’m much less concerned about angle of bank than I am about coordination and trim. If you’re flying in trim (no push, no pull), you’re unlikely to stall. If you do stall and you’re coordinated, you’re much less likely to spin.

In most training airplanes (Cherokees, Skyhawks, Traumahawks, 152s, Diamond Stars, etc.), takeoff and landing trims are the same. Just make sure trim is right and that your airspeed is appropriate for the flap setting, and you’re quite safe.

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Strega007@reddit

30 degrees is already a safety pad. It is ridiculous to add a pad to the pad, or a pad to the pad of the pad.

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ReviewEnvironmental2@reddit

30 deg clean and level.

20 deg climbing or descending or with flaps out.

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Computerized-Cash@reddit

I always tell my students thirty as a standard. But it’s whatever you need to maintain your ground track.

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skylaneguy@reddit

What if I need 90

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Mynoseispurple@reddit

60° without a parachute is the max you can do if you’ve got an instructor or any passengers. If you’re solo, you can do 90° or even upside down

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flyingron@reddit

Unless you're doing a spin or some other manouver required for a rating while receiving instruction from an authorized instructor (or ATP).

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Hodgetwins32@reddit

I tell my students if they need 90 they need to unload the wing completely and have enough airspeed, then all I ask is that they roll out on heading.

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ammo359@reddit

If you unload it completely, aren’t you not going to be turning?

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Hodgetwins32@reddit

Good catch, I meant in the vertical aspect. And now that I think about it there is no vertical component unless you’re using a ton of rudder lol

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T-1A_pilot@reddit

Then you'll need a lot of rudder....

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theyoyomaster@reddit

I’ve done 90 in the pattern, it works out if you have enough speed.

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kmac6821@reddit

95° for the short break. Lots of fun.

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homeinthesky@reddit

Flair checks out.

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theyoyomaster@reddit

Descending break turn for the win.

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Metsworldseries@reddit

I need 115

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JT-Av8or@reddit

I did that in a C-17 once because I needed to lose a little altitude to avoid going into the overcast during a high speed fly by. 😁 not quite 115 degrees but just a little past 90.

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Temporary-Fix9578@reddit

Ehhh assuming you’re flying at a safe speed for the angle of bank… I wouldn’t just say whatever you need

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I_am_Mun_C@reddit

As long as you stay coordinated and keep a reasonable AoA, the bank angle doesn’t particularly matter, at least in Hershey-bar winged single engine trainers. Even at 35° the load factor isn’t significantly higher than when you are wings level.

Teaching your students that they cannot bank over X degrees is poor instruction in my opinion. It makes students afraid of the airplane.

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Tasty-Show4438@reddit

I always tell people shoot for 20 degrees.Everyone says 30 I would totally argue that is to sporty if you pax on board. But anything over 30 you are doing something wrong for a standard pattarn.

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spacecadet2399@reddit

I don't like hard bank angle limits. In fact, they can be dangerous. The way stall/spin accidents happen in the pattern is when pilots are afraid to use bank and instead use rudder. That not only doesn't work to line up with the runway but it causes the nose to drop, which in turn causes the pilot to pull back on the controls. That's when you end up in an uncoordinated stall.

Too much bank at relatively low speeds and you can end up in an accelerated stall, but there are far fewer accelerated stall accidents in the pattern than there are stall/spin accidents. And an accelerated stall is recoverable even close to the ground; a base to final stall/spin is not.

I always just taught my students that about 20-25 degrees is "normal" and a good reference to aim for, and that going above that would only be when you really need it and would then require even more than usual vigilance in maintaining airspeed, coordination and position in the pattern. So it's generally best to avoid it. But there's no hard limit. At the airport I taught out of, which has parallel runways with simultaneous arrivals and departures, there can definitely be cases where you might need 45 degrees of bank on base to final. If you need it, you need it. Don't stomp on the rudder instead, don't just accept an overshoot into the parallel runway's protected area, and don't straighten out to go around right into another airplane landing parallel. Just use bank and watch your speed. Add power if you need to.

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Affectionate_Aspect4@reddit

30 degrees from my understanding, it's enough to do whatever you need, 60 if you really want the bitch to 180 lol

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BrtFrkwr@reddit

30 degrees is okay.

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thefouthblindmouse@reddit

I was taught 30°, not a hard limit, but a very good rule to follow.

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BrtFrkwr@reddit

It is. It's a good idea to teach as any more than 30° the stalling speed goes up sharply and teach that banking more than that base-turning-final is playing with fire.

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bhalter80@reddit

30 there's minimal risk of a base to final spin because the load factor stays 1.0. All of this explanation would be lost on a PPL student so "no more than 30" makes sense.

As a commercial pilot you should understand the statement above so if you have enough speed and can keep the ball centered 60 won't kill you but it's an aggressive non-standard maneuver

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14Three8@reddit

I learned 30, but there’s gotta be some room for nuance with aircraft type, wind, and airspeed. An archer doing 100 knots downwind to base can do 30 degrees. A baron doing 100 can’t.

But it doesn’t feel kosher to me to teach your students some hard rule for an aircraft they won’t fly in the next 3 years

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nl_Kapparrian@reddit

Limiting to 15° is not reasonable, you're going to end up 2 miles away from the airport on downwind.

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MTINC@reddit (OP)

I absolutely agree. I was quite frankly shocked after another instructor who flew with my student told them that, and the next time I flew with the student they were glued to the attitude indicator, not looking outside, and obviously not able to turn correctly or look for traffic.

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Ok-Money2811@reddit

☝️…that, and when they overshoot the runway lineup on final the are setting up for the classic cross-controlled base to final stall when they realize it and try to force it around.

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sirduckbert@reddit

60 degree 2G turn at 220kts.

Oh yeah that’s just the military trainers 🤣

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DaveTheWhite@reddit

Just keep pulling until the top gun music starts

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sirduckbert@reddit

I’ve never watched top gun, is it good?

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theyoyomaster@reddit

Gotta minimize the time that you’re wing blind.

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McPrawn1@reddit

Or up to 90 if you’re pulling closed lol

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JT-Av8or@reddit

Depends on energy. I never used a limit per se. I’ll use 60-70 degrees in the overhead break if I have to get rid of a lot of speed, and I’ll do the downwind to final turn around 30-45 depending on winds, but not heavily loaded. More of a slicing turn to keep the g down. That’s in a C-17.

In a GA prop plane I’ll use the same ideas which end up being around 30 degrees just due to the lack of speed and power. Even an overhead I’ll limit to 45 just because 60 rolls you out on downwind too tight.

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baritone_mike@reddit

I say no more than 30 but try to keep it about 20. Students that are consistently on airspeed and in nice weather 35 or 40 is okay but after the 2nd or 3rd time I tell them to shallow it out a little and turn earlier if they have to. Students who are consistently slow and in turbulent/gusty conditions I am more strict with the let’s keep it about 20 degrees.

I find introducing students to an accelerated stall and having them call out the airspeed they hear the stall horn at helps significantly with the being slow and banking too much in the pattern.

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cficole@reddit

My target has always been 20-30 degrees.

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makgross@reddit

I flatly refuse to limit bank angle. Why? You can limit it and still get a fast turn rate by skidding. Which will actually work until they get slow.

Sometimes a “safety” instruction creates an unsafe situation. This is not the only example.

I do insist on coordinated turns, and keeping the pattern gentle enough that steep turns aren’t necessary. But I will not limit bank. No.

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Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit

This thread has been very dismaying. Thank you for identifying the actual killer which is lack of coordination.

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EliteEthos@reddit

I don’t teach bank angle in a vacuum. I don’t give a finite limit (although 30 is sufficient for most of GA flying). I teach in conjunction with airspeed and AoA. If they have adequate airspeed, 30 degrees is fine, especially if they aren’t pulling super hard through the turn.

It’s important to teach them when bank ankle poses a problem. Many can regurgitate the “base-to-final turn spin” thing but can’t adequately explain why it happens there.

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CrossBamboAtTen@reddit

30 is fine. You don’t need it. 20 is fine and more comfortable. I taught my students 20, unless they needed 30. That way they could always bank more if need be. If you’re already at 30 and you need more bank for some reason, you screwed up somewhere.

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Helpful_Corn-@reddit

This is my thought process as well. 20 also keeps it nice and gentle.

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R5Jockey@reddit

15 degrees max??

https://youtu.be/f6q2VKsvQEQ?si=GH_oMNoVrk2gwqBV

Tighten that shit up. If you can’t be trusted to bank more than 15 degrees at 70 knots without spinning yourself into the ground, you need to quit flying.

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Helpful_Corn-@reddit

I teach 20 so that there's no risk to adding extra if we end up needing a bit more.

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usmcmech@reddit

Plan your pattern so that you don't need more than 30.

Use however much bank you need.

Stay coordinated and unloaded so that you don't stall/spin

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Purgent@reddit

30* max

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y2khardtop1@reddit

I think the caution is simply due to a novices inability to judge early on. All of the sight-picture stuff we hear and preach means nothing in the first hours of flight training

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Mithster18@reddit

We got taught rate 1 climbing (~15/20°) and up to 30° descending.

The reason I got taught was in a climbing turn you have increased nose attitude, increased load factor, possibly (probably) out of balance, high power setting. These are all factors in a power on stall, or a power on spin, so if you can reduce the load factor/aob you reduce the chance of a stall/spin happening.

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blame_lagg@reddit

I think 30 degrees is standard, but 45 degrees could work at higher speed. Banking more is certainly better than adding rudder if overshooting.

I guess it also depends on the type of airplane and its stall characteristics.

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ltcterry@reddit

The Glider Flying Handbook says not to exceed 45 degrees.

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Random61504@reddit

I was always told max of 30°. I just started multi and my MEI usually does 25-30

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Recently I've noticed that many instructors strictly emphasize limiting angle of bank to 15 degrees when climbing and 20 degrees when descending and turning when in the circuit. I have always taught my students to keep angle of bank well under steep (less than 25 degrees in the circuit), but I'm not super strict about the specific angles of bank as long as it's under this threshold. I emphasize timing turns properly and using the rudder correctly to avoid trying to tighten turns with rudder at lower angles of bank.

I am curious for opinions on this matter as honestly, I've never really thought about it too hard until recently.

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