Pilot
Posted by LevelBroad2686@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 78 comments
I’m in flight training under a Part 61/141-style program. On a recent XC (\~270 NM), I planned fuel with legal VFR reserves under 14 CFR § 91.151 plus extra margin due to a planned touch-and-go and possible deviations on return.
I ended up taking more fuel than the school’s suggested figure, but still well within safe limits. Now the school is questioning why I didn’t strictly follow their expected uplift numbers.
From a regulatory standpoint, I understand that as PIC under 14 CFR § 91.3, fuel planning and safety are my responsibility.
My question is:
In your experience, is it normal for schools to enforce exact fuel uplifts even when PIC has already planned above legal reserves? Or is this usually left to PIC discretion as long as FAA minimums are met?
datcrazybro@reddit
This is insane. Unless I’m only flying an hour or two on a hot day or need extra weight for pax, I’ll fill up both the tanks full every time. You never know if you’ll need it or not.
phxcobraz@reddit
So you filled up the plane and they only wanted min fuel required? No I've not had that happen. When I returned the plane they just take my fuel receipt and deduct it from the rental cost for that flight.
In the real world you aren't going to be that exact, better to fill up if you can and have plenty reserve.
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
Yes they wanted the exact fuel when coming back.I had around 10-12 gallons more.I rented a plane with fuel 200 bucks an hr
buzzybootft@reddit
It can possibly be a weight and balance thing for the next flight, I’ve had to plan for that a couple times. but then again it’s still your choice as PIC how much fuel you want for YOUR flight.
Staffalopicus@reddit
I don’t know who tf has the kind of time on their hands to micromanage each students’ flight down to 10 gallons a fuel. What a a bunch of clowns.
samnfty@reddit
Agreed! I am curious if this is how they've operated for years, or is this new due to the fuel costs rising?
phxcobraz@reddit
Tell them they are requesting an unsafe action that could potentially end in you running out of gas and or them having to go recover their aircraft from a crash site. More than likely they have a contract with their local fuel provider and where you got fuel is more expensive.
TemporaryAmbassador1@reddit
I wouldn’t let my airline that pays me dispatch with less fuel than I want. You absolutely should not dispatch with less fuel than you desire as a paying customer.
walleyednj@reddit
Unless you violate MTOW limits, there’s no such thing as too much fuel in the real world.
DifferentIntern6311@reddit
Why would they care? If it’s within W+B and legal reserves and there’s extra the next guy will just use it
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
So what should i tell them?
pronghornpilot@reddit
What is their question, exactly?
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
Their question is why i put the fuel more than what they said?i said for safety but they said that explanation isnt good they wanted to see all flight plan and everything.They want exact fuel when landing back to school
DifferentIntern6311@reddit
So is it they just want to see if you can actually calculate fuel burn accurately instead of just filling the tanks or are they mad you took extra gas?
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Sounds like they don't like paying for gas on the road. Maybe they get a volume discount.
DifferentIntern6311@reddit
If that was the case the school would prefer OP filled the tanks no?
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Not if they cannot pass that cost along.
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
They mad because i took extra gas they thinking like i took the gas home lol
pronghornpilot@reddit
If they asked for your flight plan, then send it to them. “For safety” is not a bad answer but it’s vague. If you added 10 gallons more, why did you select 10 gallons instead of 9? Or instead of 11? Maybe they are being buttheads. Maybe the pilot after you is weight-limited and doesn’t want to defuel. Maybe they want to encourage you to refine your reasoning.
Ok_Witness179@reddit
That you're the pic
FlapsupGearup@reddit
Tell them that you’ll take as much fuel as you can fit, weight and balance allowing, because it’s the safest thing to do. “Fuel planning is the responsibility of the PIC.” Period.
If they pushed me on that, I’d leave the school and let the FSDO know that they’re pressuring students into having risk-tolerant practices instead of risk-adverse practices.
DifferentIntern6311@reddit
If it was me I’d just say that my personal minimums involve adding x% more than the legal reserves and that’s why I did it. That number will decrease as I build experience.
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
Solid
flyingron@reddit
If you're planning a touch and go (or deviations) that should go into your base fuel requirements BEFORE adding in reserves.
Unless you are operating out of a high desnity altitude airport, there's not any reason to discourage "tankering" fuel around anyhow.
3Green1974@reddit
If the airlines or charter world are your goal, just get used to this type of thing. Seems odd for a school, but with fuel prices right now, it kind of makes sense.
mirassou3416@reddit
When you say they're questioning "uplift" (I don't know what that means) are you saying that they chastised you for putting in too much fuel? If so that sounds ridiculous. In any event are they penalizing you for this and what is their position regards fuel for future flights?
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
They said i shouldnt put more fuel.They wanna check my flight plan how I calculate and put more fuel lol
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
What if winds or expected delays are more than their canned fuel amounts. You are the PIC, no one else. Never forget that.
Captain_Billy@reddit
I mean transport category rarely if ever go with a full bag of gas and are usually planned at route + alt + 45 (us domestic) + some contingency and then usually the captain has a certain amount of discretion to add fuel (1000 to 2000 lbs depending on company). But why in the world would you enforce that in a training environment. Those fuel tanks are notoriously inaccurate, things happen in training, etc.
What could they possibly be trying to prove with that. Check your tanks after landing to see how good your flight planning was? What if you were off?
Asinine.
mirassou3416@reddit
Sounds really stupid lol
21MPH21@reddit
That's ridiculous.
Well to a degree. If you needed 40 gallons and you took 80 that might be a bit much. If you needed 70 though ... your a student, shit happens. The fuel economy difference isn't worth the safety
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
If you continue you career on to an airline, you will hear "uplift" everytime you get fuel. It is the amout of fuel you just put on your airplane, usually in gallons or kilograms.
cyondios@reddit
Nothing more useless in GA than fuel left behind, and runway behind you.
Ancient_Narwhal_9524@reddit
Did you have to buy fuel at a FBO on your flight with your school’s fuel card, or are they questioning ‘uplift’ from your school’s ramp?
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
I bought the fuel from school card at fbo in oddessa
flyghu@reddit
Now this makes sense. They get a discount at home. You cost them a little more by fueling up elsewhere.
We didn't have a company card on board. The rule was you'd be reimbursed for fuel at the cheaper of the rate you paid or the school's home rate.
Ancient_Narwhal_9524@reddit
Ok, you might want to be more clear about that.
Your school probably buys a 8000 gallon truck at a time (or some other lesser but still significant amount) and either has their own fuel farm or just pays a pumping fee per gallon to the airport/FBO where they are located.
If you buy gas anywhere else it’s much more expensive for them, so you are wasting their money if you buy unnecessary fuel.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Why is everyone getting twisted up over the term "uplift"...thats the only thing I have ever heard it called for the last 37 yrs at 3 airlines.
hhjijnnm@reddit
I’m so confused. What plane are you flying? When I did training in Cessnas and Senecas we just top it off. Not even a question. What’s even the logic of not filling up the tank? Your not in a airline flying a cost index with personal dispatchers and a plane that holds thousands of pounds of fuel
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
Piper cherokee
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
Its a piper cherokee and I dont know why school is pressuring me for this its just 7 gallon over
hhjijnnm@reddit
Sorry man that’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard. You could be facing much bigger problems in a flight school than this so if everything else in the school is great then just keep moving. But if there’s a plethora of problems then start trying out other schools
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Tell the school to eat shit and if they don't like it you'll take your money somewhere else.
Staffalopicus@reddit
This is the correct answer ☝️☝️
ghjm@reddit
Makes no sense to fill a trainer (C152/C172/PA28/etc) to less than full tanks, unless you need the weight for something else like passengers. Unlike an airliner, the weight of the extra fuel is not going to make an appreciable difference to fuel burn during cruise. It's not like the fuel is being wasted - it's going to be used by the next student. So even assuming your flight school is heartless bastards who don't care about your safety, even from a pure profit perspective, their concern should be minimizing the risk of an incident or accident.
LeagueResponsible985@reddit
The only time an aircraft has too much fuel on board is when it is on fire. Ernest K Gann.
poser765@reddit
How much more was fuel where you stopped vs the cost of fuel at the home airport?
I wager you’ll find your answer there
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
I flew to kodo from kftw around 265-270nm when coming back kodo abliene touch and go and meacham back.Had 48 gallons useable and top up 22 gallon when coming back loged 5.8 total hr and 10gph
Joeyheads@reddit
Looks like fuel was cheaper In Odessa, so their complaint makes even less sense than it already did
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Why is everyone getting twisted up over the term "uplift"...thats the only thing I have ever heard it called for the last 37 yrs at 3 airlines.
phxcobraz@reddit
The school may have a contract with a local fuel provider/FBO for cheaper fuel, thus why they are upset.
Joeyheads@reddit
True. Unless the negotiated price is seriously different though, it still seems like a strange request. I’ve only topped up a handful of wet rentals, but never had anyone bat an eye when I did.
poser765@reddit
Well shit. Proves me wrong. I’ll just chalk it up to dumb ass flight school drama.
OP. Just say sorry and move on.
EliteEthos@reddit
Find a new school. This is a dumb thing for a school to police.
dangern00dl@reddit
Yeah wtf. My school just did tabs after every flight. If there was a long XC we’d top it off before leaving. This is a stupid policy and this school sounds like a pain.
EliteEthos@reddit
The last school I was at, we would top off every flight. Not only does it reduce the risk of running the tanks dry by forgetting how much was there before, you can now confirm and do basic math to determine remaining fuel when you can start from a known quantity. I would always send my students on a cross country with full tanks for all of the above reasons.
Cessnateur@reddit
Friendly reminder that even vaguely descriptive thread titles are really nice to have.
For example, this one could easily read "Flight School Fuel Uplift Policies" instead of simply "Pilot."
LordCrayCrayCray@reddit
My school likes to fill to the tabs or a little bit higher. They like that because if they do a discovery flight or someone puts a passenger in it, and expect it, it could make the plane overweight. And nobody likes being near overweight on a hot day.
Of course, I can fill it up as much as I want just as long as I plan to be back around the tabs.
CluelessPilot1971@reddit
There are four things that are totally useless in aviation:
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
Is it possible the plane had a spin training flight coming up after yours, and they needed the fuel at a certain level just in this specific instance?
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
Its a piper
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
Early Cherokees could be intentionally spun. Used to fly a 1963 that allowed it.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
How expensive was the fuel you bought? How much was left in the aircraft? How much did you depart with originally? Did you use a preferred FBO and any fuel discounts.
There are many variables here that people aren’t paying attention to and just jumping a bandwagon.
Explain your thought process to whoever is asking. This may be a nothing burger and the school is questioning why there is an extra $1,000 unexpected charge. Their response to your reasoning will tell you what your next step should be.
Schools and employers can ask questions. I think that gets forgotten sometimes.
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
I took off with 50 gallons top up 25 gallons and there was around 10-12 gallons left.And fuel wqs cheaper there
Goudamax@reddit
How did you pay for the fuel at your destination? Do you submit the receipt for reimbursement from the school?
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
Paid by school card
Goudamax@reddit
It probably costs more off station and you cost them a couple bucks. I wouldn’t sweat it.
StrangePersimmon5695@reddit
Truthfully I’ve never been to or worked at a school (and I have a lot of experience across different ones) that doesn’t encourage you to top off before cross countries anyway. I understand in a ground “your client wants to preserve fuel costs, how much do you need for xyz parameters” but in a GA plane there’s no reason to not top off if weight allows.
Is it a 141 or accelerated 61? That might make a difference for how realistic it is for you to switch schools if you’re close to the end of a 141 program but yeah I would get out of there if it’s feasible
RaiseTheDed@reddit
You're renting from a school, you follow their rules. Their airplane, their rules. It's not uncommon.
LevelBroad2686@reddit (OP)
I rented with fuel
RaiseTheDed@reddit
I'm sorry, I completely misread your post, didn't see that the school wanted you to take less fuel. In which case, yeah, that's ridiculous.
FlapsupGearup@reddit
I’ve never heard of a school making you take less fuel, arbitrarily, on a wet rental. It’s certainly uncommon. If they’re renting wet, fill the tanks. Why on earth wouldn’t I if I have the weight to spare?
RaiseTheDed@reddit
I must have misread. I read that OP rented and took less fuel than what the school wanted
thepiedpilot@reddit
The school owns the aircraft and has policies in place for their renters/students. While what you did may have been safe and legal, they’re trusting you with their equipment; equipment which can be dangerous if not utilized properly and is also pretty dang costly to purchase and insure.
A flight school I trained at briefly had a commercial student lose power in the downwind of his airport of intended landing due to fuel starvation. He took off with more than the legal reserve but had to come back to land after a door popped open. Then he got stuck in the run-up area with his engine idling when an aircraft with a blown tire blocked the runway for over an hour.
I’m not saying you wouldn’t have the bright idea to go pick up a little extra fuel while you waited if you were in his position. What I am saying is that the flight school from my story took reasonable action to prevent that from happening again by requiring students to plan for and take a little extra gas. Flight training is stressful and sometimes what might seem like a simple concept is lost on even capable students.
If you didn’t know about the rule then communicate that and take some steps to familiarize yourself with their requirements; I’m sure they’ll appreciate it. If you did an ignored it, go ahead and read over what the FAA has published about hazardous attitudes (Anti-authority in particular). PHAK Chapter 2.
pilotjlr@reddit
On a single engine piston, it’s beyond strange that they have an issue with this. Most places are the opposite and require student solos to be topped off.
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
Any school that uses the term "uplift" is probably the same kind of place that makes students wear epauletts. Sounds like your school should be your old school if you ask me. You jave every right to haul around as much fuel as you're comfortable with.
MeatServo1@reddit
As a student or PPL working on hours for instrument or commercial, there’s no reason for you to go with less than full fuel unless you’re overweight.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’m in flight training under a Part 61/141-style program. On a recent XC (\~270 NM), I planned fuel with legal VFR reserves under 14 CFR § 91.151 plus extra margin due to a planned touch-and-go and possible deviations on return.
I ended up taking more fuel than the school’s suggested figure, but still well within safe limits. Now the school is questioning why I didn’t strictly follow their expected uplift numbers.
From a regulatory standpoint, I understand that as PIC under 14 CFR § 91.3, fuel planning and safety are my responsibility.
My question is:
In your experience, is it normal for schools to enforce exact fuel uplifts even when PIC has already planned above legal reserves? Or is this usually left to PIC discretion as long as FAA minimums are met?
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