We need help. Four of us are about to go for check-rides and our instructor is facing allegations against him. What do we do?
Posted by justforfuniswear@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 88 comments
This is going to be a long post with a lot of missing context, I will try to condense as much as I can.
I recently finished all my required PPL certification pieces (part 61) and completed my written. I have not gone over the results and after-mentioned ground session with my instructor yet as it’s was fairly recent. I also have not scheduled my check-ride just yet as he is waiting for me to have the ground session first and do a few mock checkride flights. I’m at \~60 hours and I feel like my maneuvers are doing great, but I’m a little off center with my book learning. I got about an 85 on my written and feel like I need some more time on weather and cross country planning.
The four of us are about in the same place. One is doing a written soon, one has a scheduled check ride for next week, and us other two are somewhere in between.
On Saturday I was approached by three of my peers during a club meetup, one of whom is underage, and the other two are recent adults, who confided in me that this instructor (who is about 15 years older) has been making them feel extremely uncomfortable. Giving them Valentine’s Day gifts, staying out late with night cross countries, obsessively texting these students with unprofessional subjects, and even going as far as to drive out of his way to see them at work and church. They asked if I’d (as a male) had been receiving similar treatment and I had to tell them I had not. He does not offer me special rides like he does with these students, doesn’t text me unless it’s about training, and didn’t give me anything as a gift.
The problem is threefold. One, he hasn’t done anything specifically harmful or inappropriate other than give off creepy vibes and be a little obsessive. Two, all 4 of us are right at check ride and are afraid that speaking up will cause us to delay training and licenses even further. Three, this instructor is also a club board member and holds more authority over the club than most instructors.
I’ve known about some of the stuff from previous discussions with my peers and had a private discussion with the instructor about some of the behavior and told him it was weird and to stop. But the stuff they talked about (some of which I don’t want to repeat) on Saturday was very worrying.
What are we supposed to do? All four of us are afraid of having to redo training. If we have our hours and written done, can we just contact a DPE separately? Should we bring it up to the president and hope a new instructor is available? Ride it out and get it done then talk to the club president after?
Thank you
Kemerd@reddit
First, you can contact a DPE seperately. If you have the sign offs, there is nothing stopping you from never talking to this person ever again, and scheduling and taking your check-ride. Additionally, explain your situation to any CFI and they would most certainly help you out.
Second, if I were you, PERSONALLY, and I am not saying this is your responsibility nor am I necessarily even recommending this, but I would ask him to talk, sit down with him, and explain to him what he is doing is not professional, making people uncomfortable, and if he doesn’t clean up his act, I would warn him that he may face personal and potentially legal repercussions. The FSDO could pull his license for this, it is very serious business. CFIs especially are entrusted by the FAA to be the community leaders that set examples and safely bring new pilots into fruition. I would let him know this, and see if he can clean up his act.
I’m not saying his behavior is excusable, but some people just need a wake up call, and someone to call them out. That being said, even if he does clean up his act, you nor the others have no reason to continue associating with this individual.
I’ve found in aviation, there seems to be a trend of unadulterated sexism, and while making stupid jokes is one thing, harassing people as a professional, no matter your gender nor sexuality, is completely unacceptable. I always make an effort to push back against it when I see it, if it isn’t just light hearted humor.
Finally, if he continues this behavior, you have several avenues of recourse. Ranging from simply filing a police report, talking to the lead of the flight school, to contacting your local FSDO and having his license revoked.
If you do choose to continue associating with this individual, and he does not change his behavior, personally I would skip the flight school and go straight to the FSDO, and contact the school afterwards. I also, however, would be willing to give him a chance to see if he can cease these kinds of behaviors. Some people however, are too stupid to see their advances are not only unprofessional, but unwanted. They struggle to tell when others are uncomfortable. It doesn’t excuse the behavior, but can at least explain it. Either way, you and the others, do not have to put up with this. It’d be perfectly valid to cease contact, request they do not contact you again, report him to the FSDO, and take your checkrides, ideally with a new CFI to guide you.
nightlanding@reddit
This is not a good idea at all. You are giving him fair warning you are after him and he will have plenty of time to cook up stories and spread rumors to make YOU out to be the bad guy here, talking to female students when you have no business to, you really are a dangerous pilot and are angry at him for pointing it out, etc. etc. To make things worse, the way many clubs work is the board is picked by a small group and probably are all best buddies with the president.
IMHO you can ignore this or strike hard. You get all the documented info and statements together and take it to the board and the FSDO on the same day.
Kemerd@reddit
Sounds like you’ve come up with a lot of reasons not to act in your head. I, for one, prefer to speak my mind clearly and directly, even if it means ruffling feathers. Whether that means to the person, my boss, the FSDO, it makes little to no difference to me. It does take gall to swallow down fight or flight and tell someone to their face they’re doing something wrong, and you won’t stand for it. I admit many cannot handle it and maintain their composure. I think striking hard at the FSDO likely would take more effort than speaking out behind closed doors, with arguably the possibility of less of a return for society itself. The government can tend to disappoint in that matter. Often times if you see something you want to change in the world, you must grasp it with your own hands. Police still take 5-15 minutes to arrive to a scene. Government will take 5-15 months to get back to you. Is it really such a good thing to rely on others to stop him from doing this to others?
nightlanding@reddit
If you think a pervert can be reformed by polite conversation, go for it.
OTOH If *they have no boundaries with students*, what else are they willing to do? They might well tell the FSDO you have pencil-whipped solo flights and spread it around you need to be kicked out of the club for hitting on his female students.
If you are going to strike at the king, best not miss. Make the first strike count. Also MAKE SURE the complaining women are in on this 100%. You will be looking pretty stupid if they decide they have no idea what you are talking about.
jumpseat320@reddit
This is not a kid stealing a cookie from a jar, why even sit and have a chat with a pedo? No one cuddles or gives treats to a dog with rabies.
Kemerd@reddit
Well, I’m not entirely sure what is actually going on. There is only so much that can be communicated through text, which is why I spoke on it, but left the door open with a specific explanation they don’t have to even think to do that, nor continue to associate with them at all, if it suits their judgment.
Sometimes, I’ve met people who aren’t trying to be creepy, but are literally just too stupid to understand what they’re doing is wrong. My initial, somewhat altruistic nature, is to desire to not have those negative behaviors affect others, by whatever means I have necessary to me to affect that change. Whether it is nudging them, sitting and talking, reporting them to police, or otherwise. Many things in life can be resolved by discussion, even with people you dislike. It is not your responsibility to do this, but this is how I approach it.
Unique_Security3993@reddit
Please please please report this!! God knows what this creep has done over his lifetime. Do the parents of the minor in question, and other females know about this!? If not, they should. DO NOT “ try to talk” to this guy. All of you need to stop going up with this POS today. It’s rarely the easiest path to do the right thing. Good luck!
Far-Desk1199@reddit
Go to EZ IFR, and do there ppl finish up course u will be done in 5 days
jumpseat320@reddit
2 things - 1. Report a predator. 2. If this guy gets investigated, what happens to the dual received? Can the FSDO or FAA say you need to go back to 0 hours? 3. This guy is not even worth your $$, can't imagine spending another 60k with this scumbag.
helltotheno12345@reddit
Yes
Fuck no. He's still a CFI and the time is legal. Being a piece of shit doesn't change the fact that he's a CFI.
100%
jumpseat320@reddit
I just cannot wrap my mind around how the OP's instructor can get involved in something stupid instead of concentrating on instructing/flying a plane.
Hot_Weather_2691@reddit
Listen- If not you, THEN WHO? WHO will report this inappropriate behavior? You, and the other student pilots need to trust your gut- if it feels wrong, looks wrong, smells wrong- then you report it.
How would you respond to something “not quite right” in the aircraft? Say your oil pressure is dropping, hmm, that’s interesting. Then your turbine temp starts rising, and you feel unusual vibrations. These are all warning signs that something isn’t quite right. Will you just continue flying along fat, dumb and happy?
Or will you act?
These fellow students are confiding in you with multiple warning signs. It means that you need to act. Don’t go to ONE board member, but have more than one present when you talk to them. Obviously not the pilot in question. And it would be wise to involve the parent in this discussion.
My last point- as a woman in this industry, I work with so many men who are amazing, respectful, helpful, and encouraging. They are friends, coworkers, and allies. It’s clear you all are young, but find your courage. This is a time for YOU to grow, and be that ally. There are so few women in aviation and what a shame it would be to lose more young, motivated women because of this one loser.
NYPuppers@reddit
One of these is a minor. You are not a mandated reporter if you are just a random passerby, at least in the states i know of, but you probably should report it to someone.
You'll have to do another 5-10 hours with a new instructor. So what. 60 hours is nothing.
Pilot0160@reddit
I’ve always been somewhat surprised that CFIs are not mandated reporters when other professional/technical instructors are
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
Won’t lead to your certificate being pulled or having to do a 709 ride. If you want to get involved go ahead, you do what you think is right. It’s equally valid to say “not my pig, not my farm”, get your tickets and get out. You have not witnessed anything criminal, though maybe if you’d like to preserve that blissful ignorance I would come up with an escape plan from this flight school/club/whatever.
DisregardLogan@reddit
“You have not witnessed anything criminal”
Not really how this works. I’d say there’s a pretty good chance something like this could very well turn criminal
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
That’s not up to you. Playing cop, judge, jury & executioner just leads to your head being on a spike.
jumpseat320@reddit
President of the club has entered the chatroom.
draggingmytail@reddit
I hope you never have a daughter. Or any other female relatives dude.
jedensuscg@reddit
Exactly. The worst thing that happens if be says something is be does a few more hours with a new CFI and spends some extra cash. Sucks to be sure.
But the worst thing that happens if he says nothing... Predators will always escalate if given a chance and past evidence that nothing bad will happen.
Moist-Exercise3908@reddit
Sounds like a particular guy who used to teach at Purdue lol
DisregardLogan@reddit
Name drop? I just got accepted into there, hopefully not a trend.
literal_flying_ace@reddit
Report him to the president of the club. It sounds like this guy is being a creep and has continued this behavior for quite some time due to no one coming forward.
Is there another CFI you can fly with? If you're all this close to checkride, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to just switch and fly with someone else.
justforfuniswear@reddit (OP)
What do we do if this person also holds the president seat? Who do we report to?
There are other CFI’s but we are afraid a DPE would look down on switching instructors so late. We are also worried about retaliation.
RGN_Preacher@reddit
You take your checkride and you find somewhere else to train. You’re a customer, if the school can’t fire the CFI due to a conflict of interest then you can fire the CFI by going elsewhere.
ltcterry@reddit
It’s a club. OP and friends are members. Not so easy to leave.
TuckNT340@reddit
A club will have a board, the board will want nothing to do with a member that’s going to get them dragged for SA/SR of a minor.
But also, they can leave and go to a school
ltcterry@reddit
You’ve not read the comments? The instructor is the president of the board.
TuckNT340@reddit
I have read the comments. “Board” by its definition means more than one. It is designed to prevent one member from having unilateral control over operations.
If the president is grooming/harassing female members, and the other members are of good character- he will be removed as specified in the bylaws. Most any legitimate organization will have procedures in place to remove a board member for misconduct.
Otherwise- the four of them just leave and find another CFI. They are not locked into a binding contract to receive all training at the club.
jedensuscg@reddit
ESPECIALLY if one is under age. Bring thet up to the board, threaten if necessary, and they will want nothing to do with that shit storm if it gets out in the public that a board member (and president) is grooming a minor.
FlatulousStanko@reddit
Yup. If results don't happen internally, call the news media.
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
On a board. And yep. Majority vote is all it takes to remove a board member.
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
DPE ain’t going to give a shit about you switching instructors bud
We have people signing out checkrides after one or two flights all the time when their previous instructor goes to the airlines
Bunslow@reddit
I wouldn't worry about the DPE side of things. They know more than anyone else that instructors turn over more than a rotary phone at the present moment. If they ask, you have a clear answer, and that's all they'll want.
literal_flying_ace@reddit
Is there a chief pilot? I'd speak with them.
I don't see any reason a DPE would look down on switching CFI's. It's not uncommon for someone to have multiple instructors for a single flight course. They are there to evaluate your knowledge and flight skills. Not your instructors
hidef3@reddit
I switched instructors and DPEs because I moved around during PPL. They care about having the proper sign-offs to take the ride and how you perform day of. Just don’t act like you’re trying to hide deficiencies.
justforfuniswear@reddit (OP)
That’s fair. There are other well known pilots on the board who I could talk to for sure. I’ll talk with the others and see if we want to wait or switch now.
SemiProFakeCarDriver@reddit
First, yes. please report this. This guy has likely been harassing for years and sheltered by this hesitation due to his power.
Second, I went through with multiple CFIs and the DPE asked why and we had a great chat about well-rounded learning and how to get the most out of CFIs. It was great, and I got tips for future CFIs.
literal_flying_ace@reddit
Regardless of if you tell someone now or later, please tell someone. Don't do nothing. The instructor in question might have not done anything physical as of now but he is clearly treating female pilots differently than male pilot. This is unacceptable. You never know what he will do in the future if allowed to continue.
galloping_skeptic@reddit
Report it to the other board members, past board members, and anybody that might be involved with or have influence with the board. It's in the best interest of the club to get rid of a creep like this. That's not exactly a guarantee that they will, but you should try. You are in a position to protect several other people from harm, and I believe that that should be your primary concern. Out this guy And be noisy about it. Imagine if he ends up "broken down" after a night cross country at a remote place with the underage victim. No way that ends well, and you are in the unique position to prevent that.
You'll end up with a new instructor, but if you're ready to do mock check ride flights, you should be able to pick up where you left off with very little disruption.
Good luck to you.
ltcterry@reddit
People switch instructors all the time. The DPE is not going to look to see who did what proportion of training and/or the sign off.
thetuxfollower@reddit
It took me a few CFIs to get my PPL done for various reasons. The DPE I went to talked to the CFI that signed me off for the ride as he was with me to get things started. After that, the CFI didn’t matter. I haven’t heard of any DPEs saying anything about how many CFIs it took. They really only care about the one that signed you off so they can make sure the endorsements and paperwork is in order.
N546RV@reddit
This depends on how the club is organized. Is there an elected board of directors, and he's the president of that board? Then I'd go to another board member, maybe starting with the vice president. The bottom line is, if he's elected, then he can be un-elected.
But if it's a small operation and he's president by virtue of basically being a CEO or some such, then there's not a lot you can do outside of taking your business elsewhere and spreading the word about his behavior.
Ok-Distance-426@reddit
What's this "club meetup" you speak of? I don't see that anywhere in your post. What club? If this is a service organisation that also provides flying instruction, there are rules about this type of behaviour, and every flying club or flight school has a legal obligation to protect themselves against predatory conduct, just as any other organisation would.
What are the "unprofessional subjects" you speak of, and what do you mean by, "not specifically harmful"?
To me, it sounds like this individual is giving undue attention to three females, while none of this attention is being given to you, the male. It sounds to me like the instructor may be grooming these females, which *is* specifically harmful.
What you do is, you all get one other person who will listen to your story (preferably a CFI where you train), and you, the three females and their parents confront this individual. Singly, he can explain this all away as nothing, their imagination. Confront him with these text messages, get it all out in the open. This back-channel crap is not doing anybody any good.
When you know enough to ask the question, you know the answer. You don't fool around with this stuff and keep hand-wringing wondering what to do, you hit it head-on. That's what a pilot does: See the problem, make the correction - immediately.
Your training with this individual is secondary to protecting your flying associates. This undue attention could also mean this instructor is relaxing his standards to accommodate these young ladies, which will not serve them well moving forward.
Get this solved now, today - not tomorrow, not in a couple of days, think about it no further. Now.
jman014@reddit
Especially given that there seems to be evidence of texts, report things to other board members.
SA is somethin that doesn’t have to just come out of nowhere.
It can be a slow burn of innocent seeming advances.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
From what I read in your post, this instructor has not done anything inappropriate to you. While I applaud your support for your fellow students, you do not personally have anything to report about him. All of your information is second hand. It does not make sense for you to take point on this. You don't like the way your fellow students say he is treating them, so finish up your PPL and never fly with him again. Any reporting will have to come from the people he has mistreated. Technically your information on this matter is just hearsay.
jumpseat320@reddit
Lots of deserving CFIs out there, plz fire this guy asap.
ContributionHour8356@reddit
Out of curiosity, how old is this instructor? I don’t like a lot of the things he’s doing regardless just based off of your post. Valentine’s Day gifts? That’s sort of weird in itself. Especially to literal minors or really recent adults and that’s it. To be fair, yes my instructor went way above and beyond and was a very good person in general, but he did nothing weird like this. Actually, most of his student were women and they all loved him. My opinion, since you’re Part 61, you all need to leave that CFI in the dust immediately and find someone else. It is absolutely not worth any of this especially if they feel like they are in danger, which is what I’m understanding. I find it very concerning that he didn’t change his behavior or anything after you discussed his behavior with him directly.
If I was a CFI, and I caught feelings for a student, the last thing I would be doing is anything like this. No special treatment, no special gifts, nothing I wouldn’t be doing for all of my other students. After the training is fully completed, and they no longer want to progress in further ratings, or anything like that, that’s when I would say it’s okay to ask for a date or something. What he’s doing is just downright unprofessional, unacceptable and very creepy.
jedensuscg@reddit
He mentioned he was 15 years older. So assuming the recent adults are 18, then he's 33ish. So very creepy. He is totally abusing that Teacher/Student dynamic as well as the age one.
ContributionHour8356@reddit
The only other thing I will add to this is YIKES. Best of luck to all of you and do your best to help them.
ChaosIntellect@reddit
Full stop- three people have came to you and mentioned they’re uncomfortable with this instructor. They’ve failed in their duties.
That’s the end of the discussion. Pause where you are and seek help elsewhere as this organization/club does not have your best interests in mind, especially with what I’m assuming are females.
NOT- OK - AT - ALL.
I’m sorry but there’s no retribution here or worth helping this person out. You’ve already tried addressing the issue and it appears it wasn’t taken to heart.
the_eviscerist@reddit
If what you describe is the extent of the inappropriate behavior, I would advise you all to finish ASAP and be done with the creep. However, if there's also been things like inappropriate touching (even "accidental" stuff like touching your leg in the cockpit) or things like unsolicited pornographic pictures, then I would report him now. Report him to the rest of the board or Club President or whoever you think has some authority. It may delay your training a bit to get up to speed with another instructor, but you'll be done with the creep.
justforfuniswear@reddit (OP)
There’s been no touching as far as I’m aware. Absolutely no pornographic images. Only weird texts like “I miss you” and “when can I see you again” kind of things. It’s very off putting that he’s also a president of the club which makes this so much worse.
jedensuscg@reddit
Any FSDO office will definitely see that as grounds for possible loss of his CFI capabilities under the FAA guidance on professional conduct.
ManifestDestinysChld@reddit
Yeah, that behavior is way, WAY out of line and needs to be addressed.
He's doing it to women because, rightly or wrongly, he perceives that this will keep him from having to deal with consequences for his poor choices.
So far, that assumption appears to be correct.
mirassou3416@reddit
I think I agree with this comment...since you all are so close just finish up with him, then all get together to report everything. Since you weren't affected everything you know is hearsay but you'll be there for support
jumpseat320@reddit
This guy is not even level headed, how was the quality of his instruction? Fire him and move on.
ltcterry@reddit
You wrote "as a male." Are the other three female? I went back and read three times to look.
At best it's really odd. Maybe creepy. Probably hasn't become illegal but it's not a good look.
Really broadly there are lots of different people in the world. People form relationships of different levels of friendship/etc with different people. We are not all the same. But...
Everyone deserves to be treated professionally in a professional environment where they are paying good money.
A person the four of you trust needs to talk to a the other board members one at a time. With just a list of dates, times, locations, and participant(s). Then the board members need to decide what to do about their colleague.
"There are always 'three sides to a story'," but in general what you've written does not seem to pass the smell test. It needs to be nipped in the bud. If that's enough for all involved.
It's probably OK if you finish with this guy. The others, particularly if female, should move over to another instructor ASAP. 61.87 mandates training that takes two to three hours before giving a solo endorsement. This is not an unrealistic final push for a practical test. So not really a financial burden on them.
There is a balance between grabbing a meal during a stop on a dual cross country and "something that crosses the line." Sounds like the club needs a policy review and some counseling. Before anything (else) happens or gets worse.
jedensuscg@reddit
It crosses way past creepy when one of the girls is a minor! Plus it's in direct violation to FAA guidance in professional conduct for CFI's.
jumpseat320@reddit
Integrity matters, the next thing this clown is going to tell you guys "If you don't throw me under the bus, I will instruct you for free till your commercial". Sounds like this guy fails ADM. I dont know if this is possible, If this guy loses his certificate, all your hrs are toast? Report him. If this was your family/friend being harassed, what would you do?
skymower@reddit
Someone needs to make sure the parents of the underage student are aware of the situation!!
justforfuniswear@reddit (OP)
I’ve let the parents know myself, they were also already aware but didn’t know what to do either since nothing has “happened”. I told them to just find a new instructor in the club.
jedensuscg@reddit
This is where you go to the board, around the president if you have to, and if they try to sweep it under the rug, remind them the court of public option is always an option.
I would hope no one would want the public stigma of a member, and especially a president, making passes and essentially grooming a minor. That is where the biggest issue is here. Making passes at adults is already creepy but can unfortunately be brushed off as "well how else are adults supposed to flirt" or whatever. But doing that towards a minor is a HUGE red flag that any self respecting club would want to have nothing to do with.
And MOST IMPORTANTLY if the board chooses to side with the guy, and you have all the evidence to back it up (texts from the girl's, statements, etc) just DO NOT keep this club anonymous. It sucks, but doing so will just force some other girls to suffer as well, and most predators eventually escalate, if he hasn't already. So find a new place to fly and publicly expose the club.
As for the DPE, they don't care if you switch CFI's. If you meet requirements, and your new CFI can vouch you are ready. If you explain to the new CFI why you are switching to them, they will relay that to DPE if he thinks it's relevant. The only issue really is it will set you back a few hours as most CFI's won't just let you jump in where to left off, they will want to see for themselves where you stand before determining how to continue training.
57thStilgar@reddit
Err on the side of caution, always.
Mundane_Put_5780@reddit
From what you’ve shared you haven’t personally witnessed or experienced any inappropriate behaviour from the instructor. That doesn’t mean it isn’t happening, but it does make it harder for you to report something firsthand.
Personally, I would gently encourage those who have been directly affected to report their experiences, as their voices are important, plus a minor is involved. Situations like this can be difficult, but reporting this kind of behaviour is a must. Not only to protect future students from potential harm, but to also afford the instructor due process, investigation allows for any potential misunderstandings or inaccurate claims to be properly reviewed and clarified.
From there, you deal with the changes as they come. All that said, if I were in your shoes, my training wouldn’t take priority over protecting others from a potential abuse of power or inappropriate behaviour. Would absolutely encourage my peers to speak up. If their report leads to delays, then that’s something I’d be prepared for and willing to accept. If something happen’s due to putting my own needs ahead of someone’s safety, I wouldn’t be able to forgive myself!
Best of luck :)
Bunslow@reddit
If you do take action against a board member, be sure you have already approached the other board members on the side, with as much hard evidence as possible. Ideally, you would turn the board against him before he even knows there's problems.
MLZ005@reddit
Do what’s right
85inchweener@reddit
I can’t see how switching a CFI would be viewed as odd by the DPE. Just switch, if possible, and pass the checkride
draggingmytail@reddit
The amount of cowardice in this thread is disappointing
Ok_Violinist_8076@reddit
Nothing ‘specifically harmful’; ‘a little obsessive’; makes underage (that’s called a child), and ‘barely legal’ women extremely uncomfortable…and you’re saying he hasn’t really done anything wrong?? GTFO. They are reaching out for help and your response is he hasn’t really done anything wrong. This is professional training and everyone involved should be behaving in a professional manner. Anything less than that is unacceptable. He’s behaving in a manner that you stated makes you afraid to say anything because of your impending checkride. Does that sound professional to you? Is that the type of person you want as a colleague? This should absolutely be brought up to the president, as he’s the one that needs to get rid of this pos.
They reached out to you for help.
Skynet_lives@reddit
I think by “wrong” he means illegal. With the person being the president of the board, and possible a majority shareholder of the flight club it does put the girls in a weird spot.
Personally I think they all need to go to another board member. With texts and evidence of unprofessional behavior. Then request a new CFI. Also their respective parents should be involved since they are the ones paying (most likely).
draggingmytail@reddit
Stalking a minor is illegal.
Ok_Violinist_8076@reddit
Parental involvement certainly wouldn’t hurt. Weird spot shouldn’t exist…Unprofessional behavior needs called out and stomped out. I agree with your plan of action.
littlewolf5@reddit
your sign offs and iacra have nothing to do with personal issues
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
First of all sexual harassment is illegal, if this guy doesn’t know that his advances or actions are unwanted it’s kind of a grey area, but if he is holding students up in exchange for special activities or meetings the grey is gone. That’s quid pro quo harassment. Creepy messages or comments are also illegal - that creating a hostile environment at the very least.
Your friends should tell him “this is inappropriate and unwanted.” Or “let’s keep it professional, I’m not interested in personal interactions,” and if it doesn’t stop immediately then make not only a report to the rest of the club but possibly the police for record keeping and then whatever state organization exists where you are for that purpose.
And for your information it’s illegal even if it happens at a grocery store, out on the street, whatever - it’s less harmful and there’s more leeway than in a professional environment but making unwanted sexually inappropriate comments, especially if it’s made clear it’s unwanted, is illegal. A single whistle / cat call isn’t necessarily sexual harassment but if the subject gives a dirty look or is obviously uncomfortable or says stop and you don’t then it is.
TuckNT340@reddit
DPE won’t care. That’s called grooming.
You leave before he starts to leverage training progression for favors.
There are 1000’s of CFI’s looking for jobs at the moment, plenty that will take you on. You might have to do some training, but it’s better than the crap you described.
For the girls, he’ll start holding out on signing them off for their ride unless they do “extra” study sessions with him… at restaurant’s and homes etc. They will waste money pursuing a sign off thats being leveraged.
Seriously move on.
Visible-Choice-5414@reddit
I would not complete anything with him if there’s a chance you’ll participate in filing a complaint (or more if anything serious comes to light.)
It can be made an issue by showing you were aware but chose to continue working with him.
Make your timeline so that you were informed and then you immediately stopped training with him.
Aka keep your nose clean.
RealP4@reddit
Report him to the board. Document this. Do not fly with him under any circumstance. Go find another CFI.
patrickmitchellphoto@reddit
If he is the president of the board you have to tell a different board member. But somebody in the club has to know. Finding another CFI is easy. But more importantly is heading this off before it becomes a serious problem. Especially since one of the girls is underage. I would tell the girls to make screenshots of interactions and write down times he's been inappropriate, to the best of their knowledge. Even recent adult women should not be subjected to being followed, sent texts and everything else.
Several_Sink801@reddit
OP, very important question: is this a part 61 school that’s owned by someone and then they call pre-payment a “club”, or is this an equity club that you are actually a part owner of and the owners elect board members. Because I think it’s the latter, but a lot are commenting as if it’s the former. If the latter, you have three distinct problems:
The President of your clubs board is a creep
Your CFI is a creep.
You have a fellow person who’s been harassed.
2 is actually the easiest problem to solve here. You are part 61. If this is a true club, you can use any CFI you want. Switch CFIs. Worst case maybe the CFI knows the local DPEs and calls you a shitty pilot, but that story gets hard to tell if multiple students switch at the same time. I don’t think you’d face a challenge on your checkride because of this issue beyond the normal challenges of switching CFIs when you are still learning.
1 is a bit harder. If this is a true club with an elected board, you need to get the members to vote out the creep. Or just ignore the creepiness and steer young women away from him until you can leave the club. Up to you.
3- support them through #1 and make sure they know they are able to switch instructors.
Even if this isn’t a true club, you still can continue your training anywhere. People change CFIs all the time. I would not worry about your checkride or training at this point, it’s not going to be a problem. (CFI/board being a creep is a problem, just not one for your or anyone else’s training)
justforfuniswear@reddit (OP)
This is the latter, changing CFI’s seems like the move here as well as bringing it up to other board members once we have documented evidence.
unity-thru-absurdity@reddit
It sucks, but if y'all aren't the one who reports him then he'll still be in the position to harm future pilots too.
schrodingerpoodle@reddit
Please also help reassure the females this is inappropriate and what lines are not ok to cross. It is very unnerving as a young female the first and even 10th time this happens. At first you feel like you did something right and they like you. Then you feel like you did something wrong because you didn’t catch it before they became a creep. It is typical power over women position. Please report it before you leave. It may prevent another person from becoming a victim.
Derp_Animal@reddit
Police. Now.
akstowaway@reddit
I’m going to gently push back on this. I’m a lawyer, not your lawyer; but I have worked both sides of criminal cases. First, he hasn’t described anything illegal in his post. Creepy? Sure. Grooming? Maybe. But not illegal.
Second, and most importantly, I’m a very strong believer in giving victims autonomy. If they want to pursue criminal charges, let them report it. If someone else reports it (other than mandatory reporting scenarios), it takes something away from victims. Participating in a criminal investigation and prosecution is pretty difficult, and plenty of people do not want to relive what happened to them. Let them make the choice.
IREQUIREPROOF@reddit
First and foremost, document everything. Make sure you stay in contact with the other 3 ladies and have them screenshot and organize EVERYTHING he’s ever done that is unprofessional, which let’s be honest, would be anything outside of teaching you how to fly a plane.
How difficult is it to get a checkride where you are? If there’s long wait times, I’d say stay on track and try and get the checkride done. If there are other instructors at the school, fly with them and get signed off for the checkride with them to avoid any legal mixup. It was actually helpful for me flying my PPL mock checkride with an instructor I had never flown with before, he gave me some great insight and wasn’t used to seeing me make the mistakes I made with past instructors so I’d consider doing that prior to your ride regardless of this situation.
Also it’s extremely shitty to put you and his other students in such an awkward position so again, these are hired instructors, they work for you and you can for the most part pick who you want to fly with. I’d say drop him from your training immediately, get ready for your checkride and you can bring forward the evidence once you are all safely in the hands of another instructor (yes I know, phrasing…)
shadowalker125@reddit
Training is training, as long as their CFI cert is valid then that never goes away no matter what happens to them. If you switch instructors, they may want to fly with you/ ground trading until they are confident they aren’t signing you off for a failure. This depends on how competent you are, could be one flight or it could be 5+.
Protect your self if you need to, your training won’t go away.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
This is going to be a long post with a lot of missing context, I will try to condense as much as I can.
I recently finished all my required PPL certification pieces (part 61) and completed my written. I have not gone over the results and after-mentioned ground session with my instructor yet as it’s was fairly recent. I also have not scheduled my check-ride just yet as he is waiting for me to have the ground session first and do a few mock checkride flights. I’m at \~60 hours and I feel like my maneuvers are doing great, but I’m a little off center with my book learning. I got about an 85 on my written and feel like I need some more time on weather and cross country planning.
The four of us are about in the same place. One is doing a written soon, one has a scheduled check ride for next week, and us other two are somewhere in between.
On Saturday I was approached by three of my peers during a club meetup, one of whom is underage, and the other two are recent adults, who confided in me that this instructor (who is about 15 years older) has been making them feel extremely uncomfortable. Giving them Valentine’s Day gifts, staying out late with night cross countries, obsessively texting these students with unprofessional subjects, and even going as far as to drive out of his way to see them at work and church. They asked if I’d (as a male) had been receiving similar treatment and I had to tell them I had not. He does not offer me special rides like he does with these students, doesn’t text me unless it’s about training, and didn’t give me anything as a gift.
The problem is threefold. One, he hasn’t done anything specifically harmful or inappropriate other than give off creepy vibes and be a little obsessive. Two, all 4 of us are right at check ride and are afraid that speaking up will cause us to delay training and licenses even further. Three, this instructor is also a club board member and holds more authority over the club than most instructors.
I’ve known about some of the stuff from previous discussions with my peers and had a private discussion with the instructor about some of the behavior and told him it was weird and to stop. But the stuff they talked about (some of which I don’t want to repeat) on Saturday was very worrying.
What are we supposed to do? All four of us are afraid of having to redo training. If we have our hours and written done, can we just contact a DPE separately? Should we bring it up to the president and hope a new instructor is available? Ride it out and get it done then talk to the club president after?
Thank you
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