Are all hobby pilots allergic to checklists????
Posted by Gulag_For_Brits@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 272 comments
I work as a production test pilot full time, but I do some flight instruction on the side for some extra fun cash and just to keep sharp. Since I'm only doing occasional flight instruction now, I'm doing primarily a lot more BFRs, and holy crap, every single one the main take away is checklist useage?????
Like every single flight review feels almost identical. Middle aged man, fine stick and rudder skills, knows systems just fine, can run through a foreflight weather briefing and flight plan to a competent level, but as soon as we start walking around the plane they start darting around and forgetting half of what they should be looking at. Just recently I did a guy who was coming back from a year off of flying and he told me with total confidence that he "just walks around the plane and inspects every system first, then reads the checklist afterwards just in case". I decided to let him do that just to prove a point and sure enough he missed a bunch of fuel sumps, the lights, flaps, and every single antenna. Even in flight when we came back he was visibly struggling to find where to begin for starting and shutting down, despite the checklist being on his kneeboard the whole time.
We had a nice long discussion and everyone who's had this problem realizes by the end and usually shows improvement or buys a kneeboard soon after to help with checklist useage at least. But this problem is so consistent and debilitating for these occasional pilots in my experience, I'm a little surprised every time that it's as common as it is. Does anyone else have the same experience with this level of regularity?
ChiFxxd@reddit
This 100%. I worked at a flying club as a CFII, doing a lot of currency checkouts, complex endorsements, and flight reviews. I’m late 40s and most of the guys were older than me. Almost every single one “referred” to the checklist, like it was a distraction. I have to remind them to use it before entering the pattern, or calling tower for takeoff. This is usually accompanied by trying to mount a huge iPad Pro on the yoke which blocks half the things they need to check using the checklist.
makgross@reddit
Yeah, I don’t understand the iPad obsession. In a G1000, the only thing it’s needed for is instrument approach plates, and if the plane has ChartView, not even that. Owners insist on mounting a massive iPad in the way of everything. And a Sentry in a plane equipped with ADSB In. I let them do it unless it’s a presolo student, but it always consumes time and attention. They get surprised I’m still alive when I tell them mine goes in the side pocket except for when it’s needed (usually, instrument approaches and giving instruction, since I don’t like to mess with the MFD while teaching unless it’s a demo), and then, it’s in a nonslip case and goes on my lap. Works just fine even in mountain turbulence. It’s a very valuable preflight tool, but it’s very often a distraction in the plane.
DOOM__SHROOM@reddit
The utility to having an iPad with sentry in an adsb-in airplane is redundancy. This is primarily important for IFR flying which would mean your pre-solo students are indeed wasting training time, but I don't think that the iPad obsession is a necessarily bad thing.
makgross@reddit
I might buy that if every instrument pilot I’ve reviewed hadn’t been right on the edge of task saturation nearly all the time.
It’s just as redundant stowed but in reach. And it’s not truly necessary, so it doesn’t even need redundancy. At the cost of extra work.
Ramrod489@reddit
Yoke mounting an iPad isn’t great. Yoke mounting a full-size one is…a choice, for sure.
mustang__1@reddit
eh, yoke mounted mini is fine. A full size would be wild, though.
Ramrod489@reddit
It’s personal preference, but I don’t like my pubs moving when I try to read them.
mustang__1@reddit
If my yoke is moving so much I can't read the iPad, chances are I'm not trying to read it anyway.
Nnumber@reddit
I pad mini works fine for a lot of planes with limited real estate specifically because it does not block the important stuff behind the iPad.
SkylanePilot95@reddit
Doesn’t block anything in my 182
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
Yeah I swear by the larger iPad over the mini, but never mount it!! That’s crazy
wt1j@reddit
Why is that crazy?
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
It’s huge. I’ve seen them mounted and I’ve seen people like reach around the iPad to get to things. That doesn’t seem the smartest decision. I like the larger screen, but keep it on my lap/knee to prevent it being in the way.
SaratogaFlyer@reddit
It really depends on the plane. I have a full size ipad mounted to my yoke on my saratoga and it does not block a single thing. On a 172 it would block half of the gauges.
-Derek
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
Yeah to be fair, i haven’t flown in anything larger then a 182. Nothing as cool as a Saratoga!
pete_oleary@reddit
One of my CFIs said to me: it’s a check-list not a do-list. Sounds like these pilots have not thoroughly reviewed the procedures so they can execute them then verify with the checklist
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
What does that even mean, I've seen a lot of people saying that in the comments and that statement makes 0 sense. You are doing a series of tasks to check/verify the items that are on the checklist
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
You guys have checklists that show you where the fuel sumps and antennas are?
Marklar0@reddit
As an air traffic control who talks to these airplane boomers all the time....this explains a lot.
voretaq7@reddit
OK, bear with me - I’m going to get on my soapbox as someone whose day job is to design systems, processes, and procedures for life-critical shit.
That’s.... that’s how a checklist is supposed to be used?
It’s a CHECK list, not a DO list.
You should be following a flow-and-check model in using checklists.
My preflight is a standard walk-around, checking all the things, then flipping through the two pages on the checklist tapping my finger on each item and saying “Yes, I checked that.”
(I actually stop after each quadrant of the walk-around and review the checklist for that quarter of the aircraft, because the full preflight checklist is kinda long to tick off the whole thing at the end. If someone’s doing it all at the end I’d recommend they do it by quadrant to lessen the chance of an error.)
My engine start and pre-taxi is a flow, then looking at the checklist card and tapping my finger on each item saying “Yes, I did/checked that.”)
Cruise configuration? Do it as a flow, then make sure I did everything on the checklist.
Approach-and-Landing? Flow and check.
Emergency? Do the red-box items, then pull out the checklist and make sure I didn’t miss any. (This is also the one place there might be a “Do List” aspect because if it says to troubleshoot something I almost certainly didn’t do that in the flow since troubleshooting comes after the red-box items. Plus every emergency is unique.)
If they’re NOT pulling out the checklist and running through the items? Yeah, that’s a serious problem: They’re not actually checking their work, and they’re absolutely going to miss stuff.
If their flows are bad and they’re not actually hitting all the checklist items (when they pull out the checklist it says they missed a bunch of things - like half the fuel sumps or checking antennas - and they have to essentially redo the whole procedure)? That’s a serious problem too.
If they’re reading off the checklist and doing each step one at a time from the list? That may not be as bad as the first two problems, but it ain’t good because the checklist is supposed to be a CHECK that they did everything.
Using a checklist as a “do-list” removes the check aspect - they're only going through the steps one time, and if they miss a line on the checklist it’s missed in the procedure with no chance to catch the error before it becomes more critical.
There’s an obvious exception to all of this if you’re in a two-crewmember situation: There one person should be reading from the checklist and the other should be performing the action and confirming it. But most GA pilots are single-crew operations, and in single-crew operations flow-and-check gives you some of the redundancy that the two-crewmember model provides.
KaleidoscopeStrong51@reddit
Funny thing is that I use both methods: I line item each item on the checklist while I do my preflight for my Mooney M20J. Then while I'm flying I use the flow and check method. The reason being is that the preflight items are just too long to remember. I have caught myself getting out of the flow on preflight so to me it's easier to the line item. However, while in the air, I have a routine for climb and descent that I have developed my own flow. I can still do these in order from muscle memory. For example, on climb out, at 500 feet I: turn off the electric fuel pump, turn off landing light, set manifold/rpm to 25 square, check cowlflaps open, set heading bug. I have a routine down and it's to the point where when I reach for the checklist, I've completed all of those. So if I forget the checklist at least I know there is a very high probability that I covered everything from muscle memory. It's not the checklist itself that is important. It's the purpose behind the checklist. The purpose is to develop muscle memory (flow like you said) but use the checklist if you haven't developed that muscle memory.
voretaq7@reddit
Yeah, that’s why I break my preflight into quadrants and go down the list after each quadrant: It keeps each flow down to a manageable and memorable 5-10 items.
You Mooney has a lot more moving parts and I’d probably have to subdivide it further :)
Almost, but not quite. The purpose of the checklist (and of the flow) is to ensure that the items are completed.
You can use either for that purpose, but the reason you’re supposed to use both (Flow-Check, Do-Verify) is to confirm that the tasks were completed, and ideally completed correctly (when you point at each switch on your post-climb or pre-landing checklist you’re actually looking and making sure it was set as the checklist calls for in your flow).
(If the purpose of the checklist was to guide and develop the muscle memory for a flow manufacturer checklists wouldn’t be so godawfully incoherent bouncing you all over the instrument panel or listing steps in an order that make you double-back in preflight. But the godawfully terribad manufacturer checklists keep the secondary market of checklist companies in business.)
jimngo@reddit
No, a checklist isn't to be "a CHECK that they did everything." The term comes from a list where you place a checkmark next to the item after performing the task. You are completely confused about the term. Let's start there.
voretaq7@reddit
My Sibling In Christ, I’m not discussing the origin of the term. I’m discussing the well-studied best practice for use of the actual thing - regardless of its name - which as I noted in another comment is the usage pattern endorsed by both the FAA and NTSB.
People smarter than you (i.e. ME, who develops safety critical processes for a living) and people smarter than me (the folks who actually study this shit at large scale) are begging us to do it a certain way.
If you want to do it another way you can - there’s no regulatory requirement for Part 91 operations to do it at all, much less do it the recommended way - but you really shouldn’t.
I’m not going to argue with you, but I hope to not see your name in an NTSB report one day.
Stanazolmao@reddit
I've read about multiple incidents, and it is also mentioned in my textbook, that crashes have occurred because the pilots went through the checklist afterwards and thought they had done things they hadn't actually done. Memory under stress is a funny thing, grim example but a bunch of people reported seeing a 3rd plane on 9/11
voretaq7@reddit
OK. And I can go get you dozens of incident reports (across multiple industries) and a mountain of human factors studies where people using a check list as a do list missed a step, and would swear to you on their mother’s life that they completed every step as outlined.
Where I can’t get you great data is single-pilot general aviation (because the ones that are doing something wrong are the ones the NTSB can’t interview, what with being dead and all...) but I kinda trust the other industries’ data and the practice of the airlines as a pretty valid proxy.
Reading off a list under stress is also a funny thing. Some new alarm distracts you and you lose your place.
You can reduce that risk by printing a clean physical checklist and physically crossing off each item after completion (or doing the equivalent with a digital checklist), but you can’t completely eliminate it: Even if you are crossing items off your do-list you are not performing a second verification that each was done correctly, you’re trusting that it’s checked off and that means you didn’t mess up.
Flow-then-Check provides that second step of verification after the actions are taken.
This is a big part of why airlines have two qualified crewmembers in the cockpit, with one reading the checklist, the other doing the step, and the person reading the checklist then looking and confirming the action was performed correctly.
But if you can’t have that (and most of us Part 91 GA folks don’t have the luxury of flying with another qualified pilot every time we go up) then flow-and-check is the next best thing, and we have studies in quality system design showing that it reduces error rates by nearly a third compared to checklist alone and by more than half compared to flows alone.
We got the damn idea from aviation incidentally - the FAA and NTSB have been ringing this particular bell since the 1980s - they call it “Do-Verify” rather than “Flow-then-Check” and the dual-crewmember version is usually formulated as “Challange-Do-Verify."
(The NTSB has been harping on this almost as long as they’ve been harping on child seats in aircraft.)
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Yeah OP is nuts. Most part 121 big wing operations are scan flow procedures from memory then pull the checklist which only has the critical items on it.
voretaq7@reddit
I mean I don’t think OP is “nuts” - I think they might be misreporting the problem though: It sounds like at least one of these people is skipping over the whole “pull out the checklist” part of the process entirely - they’re doing a sloppy flow and then not verifying it against a checklist.
That is a legitimately rage-inducing situation that will kill people.
Reputation_Many@reddit
I had a friend who was an airline pilot who would memorize checklists and act like he was reading them. I kept telling him that’s dangerous you cannot rely on your memory for that. Not to mention what are you going to do when they change the checklist. He was getting a line check and failed it because the checklist completely changed months ago and no one noticed he was not reading the checklist. Now he has a line check failure which is worse than a checkride failure on his record.
Stay safe out there.
Use those checklists.
AggressiveAnt7613@reddit
Challenge-Reply-Reply. My guy. Even when you im alone i say them out loud to myself. 20 yrs of military flying multiplace aircraft has me trained for life
Substantial_Truth700@reddit
You should know how to operate your 3 switch Cessna 172 by memory.
SeaParrot108@reddit
The issue is not “flow vs checklist.” The issue is people calling it a “flow” when they are really just doing things from memory, and hoping they did not miss anything.
Flow, then verify, is a good method if you are current and use it properly. But if you fly 10 or 20 hours a year, come back after a long break, or jump into an aircraft you barely know, be honest: your flow may not really be a flow anymore. It may just be a rough memory.
The real question is simple: does your method catch the things you may forget? If it does not, it is not a method. It is ego.
PTR4me@reddit
I use the checklists in GA more than most, with the 3 exceptions.
But the walk around is about 50/50. I do the in cockpit stuff at the beginning with the checklist, but the outside stuff I just do as I walk around and then use the checklist afterwards to make sure I didn't miss anything on the flow.
Another exception is downwind checks when doing circuits. I have the flow memorized for the aircraft I fly and have the flow go left to right (primer locked, master on, mags on both, carb heat hot, mixture rich fuel valve on both, Temperature & Pressure are in the green, lights on, transponder is on, circuit breakers are in, I'm secure, (passenger and gear are secure) doors secure - radio call. And then on Final I do a quick GUMPS check. Being heads down for 45 second of a 1 minute downwind seems like bad idea with traffic out there.
And the last one, I have the forced approach checklist memorized as well - same thing.
The only checklists we weren't expected to exclusively do from memory in the military was the before takeoff and before landing checklist which were on stickers by my left and right knee.
JAMONLEE@reddit
no, its religious for me. I've also been pressured that my use of a checklist makes me "slow", by other hobbyists and instructors no less. Rather spend an extra 10 seconds and not take off with my gust lock still installed, just my humble opinion.
Mike__O@reddit
There's a reason mid-time GA pilots are such a danger to themselves and others. They've got enough skill to be confident that they know what they're doing, but not enough experience to have an appropriate level of self-suspicion. They get complacent and it works for them until it doesn't, and "it doesn't" often has deadly consequences.
MrBoomer1951@reddit
Put a doctor in a V tail Bonanza and step back.
Live_Laugh-Lick@reddit
I prefer to refer to doctors as Bonanza killers.
natew314@reddit
I'm definitely going to be using this one. Deserves more upvotes
craciant@reddit
Since the introduction of the cirrus the mortality rate for bonanzas has been greatly ameliorated.
MrBoomer1951@reddit
Yes! I like it!
keikioaina@reddit
Oddly enough, aviation inspired checklists have improved outcomes and minimized mistakes in all manner of surgeries. In most big hospitals a surgeon who ignores a checklist is gonna be having a chat with someone higher up.
D-Dubya@reddit
So your saying my overwhelming self-doubt is really an advantage? I'll tell my mother immediately!
J/K... I do remind myself that nearly everything on the checklist is there because it can get you killed.
Remper@reddit
To be fair, people do tend to underappreciate how their impostor syndrome can actually help them be good at what they do when used right. Yes, it is easier to get complacent when you don't have enough experience, but in a wrong work culture, experienced folks get complacent all the same. Impostor syndrome turned healthy self-criticism helps with that.
FriendlyDespot@reddit
You don't get to fly the Boebus 7320 Neomax unless you at least mostly know what you're doing.
craciant@reddit
Or can't remember what plane you're in. Who put this stupid ballcruncher here where the fuck is my traytable?
Mike__O@reddit
There's a delicate balance required for sure. You need to be confident in your knowledge, skills, and experience. If you're not, you probably need to find something else to do. On the other side of that balanced equation is to always maintain a healthy suspicion that it CAN happen to you, and you CAN fuck it up, and you CAN kill yourself and others if you're not diligent and careful to do the right thing per the published guidance, training, etc.
Thengine@reddit
Funny enough, I'm told that most ATP pilots like yourself. Almost rarely look at ALL the recommended notams.
Almost like complacency is a barb that the experienced like to point at those beneath them. Talking out of both sides of their mouth, do as I say, don't do as I do. Cause YOU GA pilots:
Irony. I do love it.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
What a weird comment tbh
craciant@reddit
I mean he's right. I fuck with my FOs all the time, asking them if there were any notams and the answer is usually " i don't think anything important" as they open their iPad to check.
Half the time I didn't check yet either I just make a point to look at it together in the form of a conversation. It's easy to miss something important buried in a 20 pages of non-standard taxiway markings.
scruntbaby@reddit
What?
natew314@reddit
It is a problem for sure. The moment I decided I would never give up on checklists no matter how experienced I get was one day when I walked out of the bathroom with my fly down. It's a simple thing that everyone has done, but it made me think. I've been potty trained for about 35 years and gone to the bathroom thousands of times through the course of my life. I'm well within the currency requirements and consider myself proficient in bathroom procedures, yet for no apparent reason, one day I forgot to zip up my fly. I will never get to the point where I am taking off an airplane more often than I'm using the bathroom, so if I can forget something simple like that I know I'll always be able to forget something in the airplane.
I will, however defend the practice of going off memory and then backing it up with a checklist. Jason Miller (the finer points podcast) has a whole thing about making it a "check list" not a "do list" and argues that going through your checklist by memory and then immediately reviewing your checklist adds a degree of residency in single pilot operations and lowers the risk of accidently skipping a line.
stackedmilitaryparts@reddit
I’ve seen the same thing-it’s rarely a skill issue, more of a complacency drift. People think they “know it by heart” until the gaps show up. The flow + checklist verification method usually fixes it fast, especially for those flying infrequently.
usmcmech@reddit
Here's a bit of a classic hot take on checklists
https://avweb.com/features/pelicans-perch-1throw-away-that-stupid-checklist/
In my airplane (simple fixed gear SEL taildragger) I only use a preflight flow and a simple mental checklist. I do have a written checklist but there really isn't much to check once we are in the air so I almost never use it.
A few things in your "hobby" pilots defense.
Large complex crewed airplanes NEED standardized checklists. Small simple single pilot airplanes, not as much.
underdog5891@reddit
The 172 normal checklist is longer than the normal checklist on the airliner I fly. I like to show students this because I think it illustrates an important point.
I’ve failed students on 141 checking events that flew themselves into an unsat while distracted by a checklist, or the worst I ever saw, an unusual attitude. Over reliance on a read - do checklist is a liability, not good airmanship.
CSRAFlightCoach@reddit
I had been flying more 172S with the G1000 lately and the checklist is so dense that it’s basically unusable if the airplane is moving.
Way beyond what is necessary, and I watch so many people get lost in it and start to lose control of the airplane. Have to flow and then check.
usmcmech@reddit
The checklist is a tool to help the pilot. It shouldn’t be an instruction manual how to fly the plane.
ShaemusOdonnelly@reddit
Hmmm depends on the procedure. My FCOM differentiates between SOP (everyday operations, known by heart and performed from memory) and supplementary procedures (Manual Fuel Transfer, Power-Back, De-Icing etc) which are supposed to be read-and-do or - at the very least - to be reviewed right before performing them. Imho that's pretty sensible.
They are much more complex than GA-procedures though, for those planes I totally agree with your statement.
underdog5891@reddit
Exactly, I couldn’t agree more.
tunesm1th@reddit
Most GA pilots don't have the proficiency, currency, or discipline to properly use and maintain a proper flow, or memorize critical checklists. Harsh to say, but I firmly believe this. It's absolutely fine to have memory-item checklists but you need the discipline to memorize them 100%. This works in 121/mil world because there are standards, checks, and usually other crew there to validate that you are indeed performing your memory item checklists, and performing them correctly. Your average GA pilot has none of this, and "oh I have a flow" quickly turns into "whoops I took off with an empty right tank."
usmcmech@reddit
That is certainly valid for some pilots. Such as the sub 10 hours per types, or the flight club/flight school renters that never fly the same plane twice. Those guys absolutely need to use their checklists.
tunesm1th@reddit
Look, you do you, but this is a textbook hazardous attitude.
usmcmech@reddit
Apples and Oranges.
When I'm flying an airliner, I follow the standard flows and checklists.
When I'm flying my simple taildragger, a simple mental checklist is plenty.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
THIS. There's soooooo many comments assuming a high skill level when that's clearly not what I'm seeing. Proficient, skilled pilots could definitely run small trainers off of flows after spending time with the plane, but someone who flies 10-20 hours a year and is brand new to the plane they want a review in are likely NOT proficient in my experience, and mess up memory items every single time. Hence why I drill checklists
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
I have flown two single engine planes in my airplane training and guess what, neither had a checklist. Cessna 172 and Piper Cherokee.
But wait, don't they have checklists? Nope. Neither has an official published checklist. The flight school I trained had one that they made based on the POH/AFM, or one they bought off the internet, but for these planes there is no official checklist. When I took my checkrides, the DPE never verified that the content of the checklist was in agreement with the manual.
In the military I have a checklist for my aircraft and it is an official document and required by regulation to be in the aircraft. As far as I can tell, there is no rule in part 91 that says that checklist has to be in the airplane I am renting. It might be a policy from the company I rented from, and it might be a good idea anyway, but from what I can tell it's not actually required.
What matters at the end of the day is doing the things correctly.
usmcmech@reddit
Fun fact: no airplane has an “official published checklist”.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
I'm not sure I get what you mean. My understanding is that the steps as listed in the POH are the official version. If you have nothing else, that is the official thing you are meant to reference.
I can't speak for the other services (I assume they are similar) but in the Army we actually have an official checklist booklet that is required for the aircraft, in addition to the operating manual.
usmcmech@reddit
Despite what many people believe, the FAA only officially approves Chapter 2: Limitations in the aircraft POH. Everything else is advisory only. Read the article in my post.
The manufacturer provides a recommended "Normal Operations" chapter but it is not "officially approved" and private owners/operators/flight schools are free to create their own checklists that may or may not copy what's in the book.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
Exactly. You can just make your own and it wouldn't even matter.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
a tiny minority of people here are owners
usmcmech@reddit
Fair point.
However a significant portion of “hobby pilots” that op was referring too are owners.
adventuresofh@reddit
This. I’m a big fan of flows vs a written checklist (especially when flying open cockpit) but I fly a pretty simple airplane. Whenever I get into something more complex (constant speed prop, retractable gear, etc.) or an airplane I’m not familiar with, I use the checklist.
CardiologistOk1614@reddit
Idk the common experience, as I'm barely a student pilot, but I worked on a fleet of wide bodies for years before I decided to learn to fly and the pilot checklists always struck me as such a great idea that I got a small notepad and started making my own effective to the a/c I was flying. I want to build competence, of course, but not develop complacency. I learned in the army that gets people killed.
ilikewaffles3@reddit
That's crazy, I was always taught to use the flow then verify when under high workload but if youre doing the preflight than just use the checklist, theres literally zero reason not to use it.
_-Cleon-_@reddit
I can't speak for anyone else, but I fucking LOVE checklists. Everything written down that I need to do, right in front of me? Stuff I don't have to memorize? Fantastic, can't get enough.
lovelyfeyd@reddit
I legit do the slowest preflight you have ever seen because going down the checklist feels like meditation.
Remper@reddit
Yes, flying without a checklist-driven preflight just feels weird. I need that to switch my brain into airplane mode after whatever life thing has happened that day.
CuriousPilotMaker@reddit
In all my GA jobs I never had a checklist for exterior inspections. Not until i got to the airlines.
Ironically pre flight is probaby the most useful time to have them. VS in the air more of a 'drill' than a checklist has been more common and is sufficient depending on the complexity of the aircraft.
MountainObscuration@reddit
I never fully appreciated checklists until I was at maybe 800-1000h and flying regularly.
I would be flying along minding my own business then something would either really distract me or piss me off. Only way I feel comfortable getting back to the present moment is running through my checklist of for the current phase of flight and overview of the next one.
Checklists really aren’t appreciated until you’re thrown off your A game after thinking you really don’t need them anymore.
XOrionTheOneX@reddit
Fellow autist!!!!!!!!!!
craciant@reddit
Dude 100% of pilots are autistic. There's definitely quite a spectrum of flavors to pilotism though.
blitzroyale@reddit
Where's the FAA meme song lol
OshawattIsANinja@reddit
Wait, what is this song? I must hear it!
aftcg@reddit
It's a mix of Hawaii 5-0 (original) and Momma Said Knock You Out. Lemme find it here, it played at my last ramp check
Business_Passage1886@reddit
following for song.
Justestin@reddit
Here ya go
KDiggity8@reddit
There are dozens of us! Dozens!!!
_-Cleon-_@reddit
Not as far as the FAA knows LOL.
megaduce104@reddit
Hello? FAA? yes, I think ive found one.
tomdarch@reddit
did you really need to use an odd number of exclamation points? I'm uncomfortable. I guess being 3^2 makes it less bad.
Kingturle@reddit
I feel like you should still be memorizing your checklists. Do then verify instead of read then do.
_-Cleon-_@reddit
Memorization is going to come anyway just from doing it over and over again. The point of a checklist is not to rely on your (often faulty) memory.
Smiggles0618@reddit
Yes!!! They exist for a reason and make your it so much easier when you use one!
jedensuscg@reddit
My wife hates that I love them. She wants me to get stuff done around the house. I either forgot, or more likey can't read her mind so I do what I think should be done but was not what she wanted done.
So I tell her make me a list and I will all get done. She does, but grumbles about how I should just know what to do.
Sorry babe, but you can't untrain 20 years of military aviation that easily.
geeoharee@reddit
You live in the house. If you weren't married the house would still need cleaning. Do better.
jedensuscg@reddit
It would be cleaned in my way though, that's the point. Without a checklist, we do things our own way, right or wrong. My wife says to do chores or clean, so I do, but its not what she wanted done when she said to do something. Hence, a checklist so I do things her way.
I get you are probably joking, but the funny things about humans, we all have different ways of approaching the same problem, and expecting others to do the thing the way you do is unreasonable. So, I tell my wife, I think a certain way, or I prioritize certain things that need to be done differently then she does. If I have the capacity to do 5 tasks, my priorities will be different, that's just human nature. If she wants me to prioritize like her, I'm going to need a checklist.
It's why checklists in the plane, especially during emergencies, are so vital. Not only so we remember items, but because whoever decided on the checklist order determined it has to be done in that order. We might be able to remember all the steps, but until we really develop muscle memory, in a stressful situations our internal prioritization system (my name for it) will just take over and could end up doing things out of order.
aftcg@reddit
My wife understands your wife's pain. We can't be "fixed"
gromm93@reddit
This is me too.
helicopterred@reddit
Same here, i have gone out of my way to create checklists for the weirdest things in my life these days xD
RedLead_95@reddit
Checklists takes so much of the brainwork out. Idk why anyone would wanna struggle to remember every single step.
2002_4Runnersr5@reddit
Is the checklist usage limited to just the pre flight or do you notice this for in flight as well?
Reason I ask is a preflight walk around is commonly done without a checklist in hand in the military but once you’re in the cockpit you read it one item at a time. I was literally trained to walk around and then reference the checklist after.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
Oh it's inflight as well, sorry. Post was already long and I didn't want to give too many examples, but like I see people leaving the fuel pump on well into cruise, forgetting to switch tanks, not ever using the carb heat, stuff like that all in flight very often
2002_4Runnersr5@reddit
Yea I could see this as an issue for GA and I agree with your assessment. I am far less concerned about walk arounds done without a checklist in hand though
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
Yeah definitely not the most important component, but it's good for habit building, especially when you're constantly missing important items imo. I had a guy I flew with fly a tank dry from missing it on preflight so I'm likely just a little more paranoid than most haha, I like people to reference it during preflight after finishing sections of the planes just to keep them on track
awayheflies@reddit
I tend to do fuels and oil first and then do my walkaround uninterupted. I feel its better then stopping the walk around to open the oil cap or fuel cap or cleaning up oil that dripped while checking so you go and get a rag etc. its a lot of distractions taking you away from the walk around and you might come back and forget to secure something. I check oil and fuel and then when doing the walk around I can confirm everything is back on and secured. less distractions. Thats my personal preference
Cheese_Burger_Slayer@reddit
My instructor taught me to do it in 3 steps: electrics (master on, lights + pilot heat check, master off), full walk around, liquids (oil, fuel sumps, fuel levels). Works well for me.
Dogmanscott63@reddit
I like to do this first. If I need oil, I can get it started while I do the rest of the walk around. Need fuel? Call the truck (flight school) and have them come fill while doing g the walk around. I teach my student this...oh, and in cessna 172s, why donyou suppose checking g the selector is on both appears several times in the checklist? 😉
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
I have never seen anyone but the greenest of students reference a checklist during a walkaround.
Checklists during walkarounds are basically not a thing anywhere.
tomdarch@reddit
To be clear, I do several checks in a row on preflight between rounds of ticking them off on the checklist, but I know that if I try to do the full walk-around without the checklist, I've missed things.
Jwylde2@reddit
That’s because you have a plane captain that basically sets the airplane up for you before you even get to the plane. He/she has already done the detailed daily inspection and had maintenance address the issues before you even lay eyes on it.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Navy detected
Jwylde2@reddit
LOL you would be correct.
T-1A_pilot@reddit
You must have been fortunate enough to have a flight engineer... 😄 not all of us were so blessed!
Jwylde2@reddit
Oh I wasn’t a pilot in the military. I did plane captain duty for part of it. 😉
mkosmo@reddit
But they're not the ones strapping in and going flying, nor responsible for the aircraft once it's left.
It's a team effort. The pilot isn't doing a walkaround because he doesn't trust them, nor does he abbreviate it because he does.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Totally depends on the aircraft. "The military" doesn't have one way of doing it.
2002_4Runnersr5@reddit
You’re right. This was Air Force fixed wing mobility specific. I’m sure some of the bigger dick guys like you didn’t need checklists in their F-35s.
Glum-Bus-4799@reddit
I'm still working toward my PPL as a hobby and have no prior experience, but my CFI also taught me to walk around the plane without a checklist first and then go through the checklist after to verify I checked everything, then we do the dummy walk around. Then heavy on the checklists once in the plane. But he's big on getting that walkaround flow set in my muscle memory rather than bopping around from thing to thing using the checklist. And I feel like it allows me to give the plane a thorough looking at without distractions.
I guess just commenting because idk if I learned "the right way" but it makes sense to me.
iheartrms@reddit
Are we talking checklists or do lists? Or a flow backed up by checklist?
Various-Blood-3902@reddit
What have you test flown?
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
I won't say exactly to keep it somewhat private but it's a line of relatively well known and well designed tail draggers
xplanematt@reddit
You're a U2 test pilot! Awesome!
AlpineGuy@reddit
I must admit, for the outside inspection I do it similarly... for the simple reason that a lot of checks require the use of both hands. Where should I put the checklist? Hold it with my teeth, stick it into my pants (too large for pockets)...
During flight I use it always, except for the parts that have to be memorized, but even those I usually double-check on the list.
FlyRvR@reddit
I build my own checklists from the POH and other sources on my iPhone notes app. You can do a bullet point list that actually has check boxes to tick next to each item.
But to be honest, if it's a 172 or a 150, it's memorized, and all I do is glance at it to make sure I didn't somehow forget something. Having the clickable boxes means you pretty much have to decide to ignore it.
zheryt2@reddit
Nothing wrong with doing the walkaround without a checklist in your hand, but you better diligently confirm every item on the checklist when you go to sit back down. That's just a flow.
gromm93@reddit
That they've gotten sloppy with, because they don't use a checklist.
Longwaytofall@reddit
Have you ever seen an airline pilot with a checklist in hand doing a walkaround?
gromm93@reddit
I've never watched an airline pilot doing a walkaround, so I wouldn't be able to comment on this.
But believe me, I'd be much more reassured that he was doing it right if he did have a checklist.
PhraseTimely302@reddit
Believe it or not, the walk around on an airliner is a lot less detailed than on a GA airplane. We can’t reach or see 75% of the airplane with any sort of significance nor can we access panels and ports that you can on a cessna. It’s basically “are there any glaring issues visible” mixed with a small handful of fleet specific items. The number of times licensed A&Ps touch these airplanes make a good portion of it redundant.
gromm93@reddit
Fair point. I suppose it's mostly "Do you see fluids leaking, and from where? Were they there last time?"
Which explains why the Cessna 172 walkaround has an actual checklist.
aftcg@reddit
I've never walked around any airplane, mine or the airliners, with a checklist. We're taught how to do a walk around without it.
gromm93@reddit
So are surgeons, yet once they started doing checklists for things like sponges and instruments left inside of patients, the number of mistakes made went way down.
aftcg@reddit
Very different. That has an accountability aspect. How many tools, appliances, etc were used and where are they now. A walk around does not include this stuff. However, if a mechanic leaves a tool where I look, or there's a broken thing, burnt out light, I'll see it. No check list is going to tell me that the "#3 static wick removed from aircraft, released IAW MEL XX-XX." That's what the logbook is for. It will tell me what the configuration deviation is. That logbook is looked at before the walk around and is a flow procedure and not a checklist item. If the logbook isn't available yet, and I do the walk around and notice the static wick missing, I gotta remember to check the tin to see if it's on the CDL. If not, gotta write it up.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
have you ever seen someone flying GA four legs a day for 15 days a month?
checklist in hand or not for preflight is eh. but "pros who do this every single day with tons of training, experience, and recency don't do this" isn't a good counterargument imo
primalbluewolf@reddit
Yes? Been there, done that.
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
Hell no. Because you work chronologically from one item to the next. The plane itself is basically a big checklist.
Such-Entrepreneur663@reddit
Tbf there are 10s of mechanics pouring over their champs every day like there are an airliner.
happytoreadreddit@reddit
It’s a check list, not a do list. Even ASI recommends this approach. Do your flow, then back it up with your checklist. It’s safer than just reading line by line mindlessly.
Figit090@reddit
I get lost and mindless checking as I go. I find it's a bit easier to do the memory items, confirm, enter next phase of preflight.
I could be mistaken in my accuracy though, on one hand line-by-line you have to avoid mindless checking boxes, on the other hand doing it in clumps you have to ACTUALLY REMEMBER doing the list item on that preflight and not feeling like you did, or remembering another day.
I try to do only clumps I can remember, like runup I prefer expeditious completion without extended line-by-line of each item, for my specific airframe that feels best. On a complex jet perhaps I'd do each line at a time because their startup isn't as brief.
gromm93@reddit
I don't see why you'd want to not have the checklist during your walkaround. You check everything you remember, then verify with the checklist, only to have to go back out and check the things you forgot?
No thanks. I'd rather make sure I got it right the first time. Even on a Cessna, that list is 30 items long, and it doesn't even rhyme!
74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit
I always did two walk-arounds in GA. One flow one with the checklist.
When the CFI showed up or I was solo and all fueled up I'd usually do a 3rd one too just looking for chocks, tie downs and cones.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
Ok this is a little overkill lol
74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit
Maybe.
Never had an incident.
It didn't take me much if any longer then doing it once slowly with a checklist in my hand trying not to drop it while untying tie downs and taking fuel samples with cup in my other hand. A final chock walk took 10 seconds tops.
Sqoobe@reddit
Not sure why this is being downvoted. After my checklist-in-hand preflight, but before getting in to start (which can be a good chunk of time for many reasons) I’ll I do one last walk around the plane but in the opposite direction looking for anything little things I missed.
jckwlzn@reddit
I love checklists. Makes me feel like an airline pilot
JasonThree@reddit
If you really wanna feel like an airline pilot, stop carrying the checklist while you're doing your preflight walkaround
jckwlzn@reddit
Never
Drunkenaviator@reddit
Me too! Which helps, because I am an airline pilot.
jckwlzn@reddit
Dudes collecting type ratings like infinity stones.
craciant@reddit
I couldn't do my job without a checklist... the list reminds me I forgot something every flight...But what is even on a checklist for a light piston? Wouldn't that be like having a checklist for driving a car? Not to say that's entirely ridiculous- I do have a "leaving for work" checklist on my fridge that's saved me from leaving without dress shoes or a headset.
I think the emphasis on 'checklist usage' for small ga planes is mostly a thing to introduce the concept in case someone were to move on to something bigger. If the weekend warrior can remember how to spell GUMP that's probably good enough. Unpopular opinion but I'd rather have those guys looking out the window than fumbling with a checklist single pilot... I mean the pilot flying shouldn't be heads down below 10k and that's pretty much where the bug smashers live full time.
Worldly-Alternative5@reddit
I use checklists, but I was a checklist fanantic in my work before I retired. I was the guy wrote checklists. I use checklists pretty consistently when I transition, and I tend to learn the list and eventually don’t use them much. Some of the pilots I fly with have flows that they back up with checklists, but for the l simplest airplanes (like the Cub) they rely entirely on mnemonics. So it varies.
shhbedtime@reddit
I would argue that performing the walk-around and then referencing the checklist is correct. It is a checklist, not a do list. But I assume you were simply using that as an example of a lax attitude toward checklists.
I'm an airline pilot and fly multiple times a week. The checklist picks up stuff we forgot all the time. So if I need it to catch my omissions and I'm flying multiple times a week, then someone who flies a couple times a year should definitely be using one.
We actually differentiate some checklists as "read and do" and some as "do then check"
DatBeigeBoy@reddit
There’s a reason most aviation accidents and incidents are GA involved.
SSMDive@reddit
Might have something to do with two professional pilots vs some hobby pilot. Might have something to do with turbine vs reciprocating. Might have something to do with the additional regulations of 121 vs 91. Might have something to do with the team of mechanics vs finding an IA.
Urrolnis@reddit
None of that is the reason that GA pilots land gear up. Run out of fuel. Fly into thunderstorms.
SSMDive@reddit
Where is "Thunderstorms" on a checklist?
Urrolnis@reddit
Where are "team of mechanics" on a checklist?
SSMDive@reddit
Maybe you should read the thread again. It was about not using checklists and then how someone claimed it was what made GA less safe.
DatBeigeBoy@reddit
Yes, that’s exactly my point. Checklists are apart of the structure and professionalism.
SSMDive@reddit
And my point it is also things like better MX, better engines, two professional pilots. Its not just someone reading a checklist.
Turbine engines are just more reliable than recip.
Two pilots are better than one.
Two engines is normally better than one.
HackerZol@reddit
I’m a low time pilot, 150 hours, but I like checklists. Personally I like the ForeFlight checklist feature. I started by importing the generic one for my plane then highly customized it. I use it every time I fly.
CaptGrumpy@reddit
I used to see too much checklist usage and too much useless crap on badly ordered checklists. 15 minutes in the run up reading and re-reading, losing their place and starting again, checking useless stuff like documents.
ChitownMD@reddit
Hobby pilot here. I am obsessed with checklists. I copied the paper ones to ForeFlight and added things to them that I thought should be included. I even have a securing checklist that includes not forgetting my sentry on the window.
If anything I’m overly reliant on them.
gearheadstu@reddit
Same. Same.
littlelowcougar@reddit
As a middle aged man here’s a random tidbit: the C150 from like ‘67 I did my PPL in didn’t even have checklists in the manual! Or maybe that was the C140 from 1942. That had a single moldy page in a ziplock.
No point, just sharing something random that’s tangentially related.
SeaMareOcean@reddit
Yeah but you’re not flying the way they want you to. There is only one way to enjoy aviation and all flying must be 100% procedural and bureaucratic. That‘s why man strove to conquer the heavens, looking to the clouds high above and thinking…”before taxi checklist.”
Seriously though I do think it’s good for us middle aged C150 pilots to sweat a little during the BFR and get reminded of the way we were (hopefully) taught. But yeah, if you’re an owner and nobody else is flying your whip, I don’t think diligent checklist discipline is necessary. Me, I fly club planes and thorough preflights and checklist adherence is the name of the game.
nightlanding@reddit
Depends. If the person OWNS the airplane, they may well be allergic to anyone telling them what to do or how to do it. Renters live in an ecosystem with checkrides and checkouts much more frequently.
Now to external preflight on a simple airplane without a checklist, I would say most pilots do that after the first few times. We went nuts at XXX Air Force Base where some colonel wanted checklist in hand if anywhere near the airplane and exactly no pilot or instructor wanted to preflight with one hand and never held a checklist unless said colonel was nearby. I always did teach a flow method to my students, we analyzed the written checklist, rearranged as needed for logical flow, and you could start at point X and hit all the things that needed hitting by the time you got back to X.
KeveyBro2@reddit
So I have had the opposite problem. All the way during training I would use the checklist like a checklist, checking then executing each action.
Then my instructors started telling me off for it. They said you're meant to build a flow and use that instead of checking each individual item off. You can then use the checklist at the end to confirm.
It got to the point where on a flight test (Australian equivalent of checkride) for a multi engine class rating the examiner saw me pull my checklist out and went "if you don't put that away and show me you can start the aircraft and get it ready for takeoff I'm going to fail you"
Apparently this is how the airline guys do it and that's what they're trying to drill into us but I've never understood it. Thoughts?
Electrical_Salad2317@reddit
CFII here. Have done some rental checkouts for the school i work for and bro believe me they are ALLERGIC to checklist. Complacency is what I believe is the main reason. The more hours they have the least they use the checklist. Once did a flight with the assistant chief of a big school and he didn’t even use the start checklist and sent it straight
Smiggles0618@reddit
I always use a checklist, which is followed verbally. There's zero reason for a GA pilot to not use one.
mkosmo@reddit
That's an entirely valid checklist strategy. Do and check.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
This is valid unless it's a plane you've flown three times and you haven't even flown any plane in over a year
mkosmo@reddit
Apart from a few type-specific things like the number of sumps, pre-flights on all Part 23 light GA piston singles is just about the same.
You can go from a Skyhawk and effectively pre-flight an SR-22 without significant differences that won't be caught when you validate against the checklist.
(assuming you were taught -why- we check things as opposed to just -what- to check, at least, and can apply critical thinking on the fly)
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
I mean not really? There's a ton of differences like wet sump vs dry sump, carbonated, tailwheel vs nosewheel, type of parking brake, cable actuated vs push rod actuation, etc. The general start to finish has the same structure, but imo there's some pretty critical differences between reciprocating aircraft that you can't just make assumptions on without prior experience
mkosmo@reddit
Sure really. The sump isn't checked in a preflight. Carb vs FI isn't a factor during pre-flight. Tailwheel/nosewheel? Still have to check tires, linkages, etc. Parking brake? C'mon. Cable vs pushrod isn't visible during most preflights, either.
What you're talking about is stuff that is arguably important to operation, means nothing during preflight.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
Dry sump 100% is a factor, if you fail to burp the engine to accurately asses oil levels in certain engines you won't actually know your current oil level. Which is a part of my point lol
flat6purrrr@reddit
Sounds like it would benefit this individual more to chair fly procedures and flows before going up. Seems like they would be equally as dangerous hunting and pecking at a checklist in the air.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
I agree, but I'm not their parent and can't make them unfortunately. I advises the last guy that he should chair fly before every flight and get a kneeboard for the checklist in flight but that's about all I can do
LateralThinkerer@reddit
If it makes you feel any better I rewrote the "official" checklist to make it a simpler walkaround without having to jump in and out of the aircraft and life got a lot easier while checking everything every time at the expense of leaving the panel/lights on for a few minutes.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
I did this for our club checklist so it follows a straightforward path starting from the door, around and then ending back at the door but people still need it explained to them. Oh well
LateralThinkerer@reddit
This is what I did, but I included a graphic from the POH (this was a PA28) that went with it. If they need explanations after that, well...
Few-Rock-8595@reddit
Don’t worry, I’m sure GA will be regulated out of existence in favor of drones within the next 5 years
Ramrod489@reddit
This is why I stopped teaching GUMPS and just make them use a checklist now.
Urrolnis@reddit
Nothing like people doing GUMPS in a Cessna 172S
Spaceinpigs@reddit
Regardless of the checklist, I always do a quick gumps check just prior to landing as something can always happen to make you overlook a checklist item. I don’t rely on it. It’s just a quick double check and it’s saved me a couple of times on sim rides where my sim partner is stressed
Ramrod489@reddit
As a safety check, absolutely! I’m a “clearance configuration checklist” guy myself.
I just don’t teach it as a replacement for the checklist, which is what most pilots that I’ve met that use it use it for.
Spaceinpigs@reddit
Oh yeah. Definitely not. The gumps check is strictly a “prevent an FAA date with an investigator” check
tunesm1th@reddit
Bruh. I went GA - MIL - now back in GA, and this KILLS me. I think it’s a safety epidemic and the GA enterprise as a whole is far, far too lax about checklist use.
Urrolnis@reddit
GA is far too lax about a lot of things. Risk management is generally non-existent in General Aviation and just about every time it comes up, it's met by "We're not airline pilots we're not going to adopt airline procedures" and the procedures in question is some modified version of stabilized approach criteria.
SpecialistAd9266@reddit
I think some GA checklists are just really poorly written and as a result some people don’t use them. Some of them are describing how to fly the plane, for example some takeoff checklists that say “full power, rotate at 65 etc”. I fly 121 and our checklist is shorter than most single engine GA planes that iv seen. Not due to lack of complexity but they are designed only for flight critical items that the airplanes own automation/EICAS wont catch. We could do better by having well designed checklists that are user friendly. GA pilots/planes don’t have some of the automation/standardization we do but a better checklist might encourage stronger checklist compliance. CFIs maybe could do better at enforcing compliance especially with owner flown high performance singles that are more complex than the standard 172 or Cherokee.
Regardless none of this is an excuse to not use something
Urrolnis@reddit
Go dig into your airlines' manuals and you'll find expanded checklists and "flight routine" stuff in there as well. That's pretty normal - that's how you lay out what to do. No manufacturer is expecting a pilot to look down halfway down the runway for the checklist to tell them when to rotate.
A lot of GA checklists are designed wholesale for the learner, not for the owner/general operator. That's why you see "Get ATIS" and "TAXI LIGHT - ON" in third party checklists but not in the POH.
time_adc@reddit
I was a 500 hour pilot, bought my first planr, PA-28. One of the guys on the flight line wanted a ride in the new plane, he's an ATP with several type ratings, and an A&P IA, had built his own Van's RV, flown every type you can imagine. I had a lot of respect for him. We get in my plane and I dutifully pull out the checklist. He starts making fun of me. "You still use checklists on primary trainers like this?! Just do a cockpit flow and let's go!"
Made me feel like a rookie for using checklists. I guess using checklists makes me a dork or a loser?
Standard_Ear_84@reddit
Same here. Cranky old tailwheel instructor: "put that bloody checklist away, we are in a Citabria ffs"
tomdarch@reddit
You're an alive dork/loser like me. Snodgrass was an amazingly cool fighter pilot who missed that the gust lock was still in place and is not alive.
tunesm1th@reddit
That guy is an ass and you’re 100% in the right here. A checklist would have saved Dale Snodgrass’ life and he had way more experience than that guy likely did. You never outgrow good habits.
Quirky-Advisor9323@reddit
I’m a hobby pilot and am pretty fascist about checklists. I went flying for fun with a pilot for a major airline not long ago, who owns a GA plane, in his plane. He literally had no checklist on him. He just kinda moped around walking a circle around the plane and then told me to hop in. And off we went? I asked him if he had a checklist. He mumbled and changed the topic.
So it’s the usual cliche: make a generalization and I’ll find you a few million exceptions to it. I was actually pretty stunned by that guy. This was a few years ago and I still remember it vividly.
Staffalopicus@reddit
Checklists are for people who don’t know how to fly airplanes /s
xiz111@reddit
Well, this sometimes hobby pilot certainly isn't. I've had instructors rush me through checklists, and had to slow them down so I could go through the procedures.
ColonelPotter22@reddit
I annoyed my instructor because I used the checklist and then I would go above and beyond (I got to know the mechanic) and I would check it like I was buying it (just renting it), the flight school was nice to me since I caught a few items that where ready to fail.
tomdarch@reddit
I wonder if people think I'm crazy using a flashlight to peer into the dark areas (flap actuators inside the wing, static port/pitot opening) but no one has complained or made fun of me that I've heard...
taycoug@reddit
This is where you can just be confident in the way you do things. Those thorough pre-flights are a great way to learn new things you need to go research. “Should X look like that?” Or “how does Y work?” Are great uses of time.
When I bought my first plane, I spent a few hours following drain tubes to their source location with a flashlight and fingers and then reading about those systems and how they work. On that plane, the electric fuel pump drain tube was identical to the intake manifold drain. The latter (on Cardinals) occasionally drips. The former only drips when it’s failing and any drips should ground the plane for mx. How else do you learn that?
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
Who cares what they think?
voretaq7@reddit
Everyone should do this.
Remember, we are not limited to slavishly following the manufacturer checklist from the POH. The checklists are not in the limitations section!
Those manufacturer checklists often suck (they're not organized logically to match a flow, preflight checklists frequently omit things we can easily put our eyes or hands on, etc.) and improving on them (re-organizing the order of steps, adding things the manufacturer didn’t think to put in them) is a trivial exercise that can make your flying safer.
Serious_pOoper69@reddit
I just completed my BFR a month ago and started my instrument training shortly thereafter. My last flight, I had a genuine doubt of myself and I flat out asked my CFII if I was getting too ahead of myself on checklists or going too fast. He said “out of all my recent students, you’re the only one who actually reads the checklist, confirms in the cockpit, and then continues with the checklist. You speak fast, but you’re acknowledging the checklist items one by one”.
I was genuinely shocked to hear that I’m the only one using checklists. Keep in mind, this company I’m training with does not provide training for student pilots. Only Private and above. That worries me, a lot.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
I generally agree, but I will say that exterior inspection checklists are overly dense to the the extent that their realistically pointless, and you very much can just "look for anything loose, missing, leaking, or broken," along with the 2 or 3 specific things that plane needs.
Like, I need a checklist to tell me to look at every single antenna? No. I can visually inspect if any of them are broken, loose, or missing. It's perfectly valid to just remember "turn on the lights, lower the flaps, walk around the airplane and inspect, check the oil, fuel sump, and exhaust hoses." No checklist needed.
Real checklists don't start until the preflight checklist in my opinion.
China_bot42069@reddit
I’m just a GA low life but I don’t fly with guys that don’t use checklists. Why wouldn’t you use a checklist. It takes no time at all. It’s really laziness
aftcg@reddit
Huh. Whadoyakno. Not one post of anyone exclaiming how they don't "do" checklists. I bet they know who they are and just pfffft this post.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
Doing the preflight then backing up with checklist afterward is very common and totally fine I think.
Many things on the preflight inspection require you to climb up on stuff and it wouldn't be safe to be holding the checklist. I'm not going to leave it on the ground while I do that. The Cessna 172 checklist isn't that long.
If someone isn't using it at all, or while in the aircraft, that would be a problem.
Pretty_Marsh@reddit
I was taught to flow the preflight as a student, I never used a checklist, nor did my instructor. I only realized recently how much I was missing on preflights, especially as I’ve added types.
Overall_Fun4296@reddit
yes
flyhighdivelow@reddit
Just to clarify, do you believe checklists should be used for every flight across all experience levels?
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
Yes. Now I think you don't need to religiously announce every item during every phase and slowly check off each individual component during a walk-around, but I think everyone should at least have a checklist nearby to reference and review before and after a flow.
rkba260@reddit
Before and after a flow?
We'd never have an on-time departure... kidding, but also not.
Flows are memory items, checklists are there to confirm the flow was done correctly. Some items from flows aren't even on checklists.
Case in point. After takeoff flow on the 73... flaps up, start switches to off/auto, packs auto, bleeds on, gear handle to off (NG), autobrakes to off/disarm....
Actual after takeoff checklist is packs auto, bleeds on, gear up and off (NG), flaps up lights out. No mention of start switches or autobrakes.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
By before I mean for like prep work and studying lol, since a lot of these guys are pretty new to the plane in my scenarios. Obviously there's no reason to read the checklist right before the flow, kinda defeats the purpose of memory items 😅
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
Well not following every item on the checklist completely negates it... So that's not very consistent with your point.
chuckop@reddit
Not me. I’m strict about checklists and have been since I started. 1,110 TT
MeatServo1@reddit
Discipline is taught/learned, then practiced. Simply being near something with lots of discipline or where discipline is appropriate doesn’t mean everyone has it.
morrre@reddit
My FI wouldn’t let me have sit down on the left seat without a kneeboard.
Notes and a checklist holder? Awesome!
redditburner_5000@reddit
That sounds alright to me, actually. It's a checklist, after all.
The problem I have with casual pilots is that they don't seem to use checklists at all. Nor do they use the airport layout plates for ground navigation.
grumpyoldman10@reddit
Repetition forms habit. I’m constantly running late and constantly running low on gas. I’ve run out of gas at least a dozen times in my lifetime. It’s one of those things that can’t happen as a pilot or I’ll end up dead.
MrPlake@reddit
In a car or plane??
grumpyoldman10@reddit
In a car
EntroperZero@reddit
As a hobby pilot, I don't get why checklists aren't used either. I don't fly every day, I'm not going to remember every step of every procedure. I like checklists so much that I made us start using them at my non-aviation day job.
davidswelt@reddit
I very much use checklists on the ground, and most of it (including the preflight) is a flow backed up by a checklist later. The ground ones are important in my plane also because they have killer items on them (takeoff flaps particularly). For a long time I wanted them on paper, but have now switched to Foreflight.
In flight, the checklists are memory items. Cruise checklist is written, but the other ones seem more like a distraction and need to come quickly and fluently. GUMPS check on every landing, religiously.
tomdarch@reddit
I mostly resemble this description (though I have plenty of room for improvement in terms of stick and rudder.) I'm a huge fan of checklists. I love that setting them up on Foreflight means that I have a way to actively tick off each item and see if I've missed anything.
I try to use "point and calling" also for "flows".
skunimatrix@reddit
To be fair the critical checklists for my plane are placarded on the panel.
voretaq7@reddit
Mine too, but after I do my flows I still point at the items on the panel sticker and confirm that I did them :-)
Mispelled-This@reddit
I’m curious, how many of these people are owners? I was always diligent when I was a renter (and in a different plane every flight), but I have definitely struggled with complacency since I became an owner.
LaserRanger_McStebb@reddit
No. I'm a dumbass and I know it. Checklist every time.
SSMDive@reddit
I had 250 hours in one of my planes, it was a simple single engine taildragger... Total things you could move other than the basic flight controls - Fuel switch (never took it off the main, even at shutdown), master switch, mag switch, the radios, and the Kollsmen window.
No one flies my planes but me, they sit in the hangar attached to my house. No one even touches these planes between my flights.
I own a open seat gyro. I read the checklist before I go flying, but I don't read it while flying because it is so windy, anything not in a pouch goes flying and then right through the prop.
I have a helicopter. I only have 120ish hours heli and only about 20 in this one... I read and use the checklist for each step, then use flows from TO to landing, then back to checklist for shutdown. Mainly because there is a ton of stuff that is not second nature to me. But I don't go grabbing checklists when single pilot trying to hover.
In my work planes, I have checklists and use them. Because I don't fly them nearly as often as my aircraft and other people touch them.
The point is, that on say a Cub, there are so few things to check that CIGARS and GUMPS about covers it.
KingofRoam@reddit
1200 DG CFI here prepping to go to the airlines.
I stopped offering/doing BFRs & IPCs a few hundred hours ago. Every (with a couple exceptions) non-career pilot I’ve encountered is exactly like you’ve described.
They typically do very well in their respective fields outside of aviation. When I tell them we need to fly more before I feel comfortable signing them off, they usually get very frustrated.
To lower time career orientated CFIs, I understand trying to get time is tough right now. However, we are here for a hopefully long fruitful career. Sometimes it’s better to protect yourself and your certs that you’ve worked so hard for.
MountainMan17@reddit
I'm a retired AF navigator who enjoys watching Pilot Debrief on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBeZYVlqOeSSlrBSXl4aTig
I'm often dumbfounded by how casually (and arrogantly) some private pilots approach flying.
It's a realm completely different from boating, hiking, or riding motorcycles. In any one of those hobbies, you can stop, shut down, and figure things out. If you have a mechanical or a physical issue, you can call or wait for assistance from someone passing by. There's nothing lost apart from some time and maybe a bruised ego.
Not so with flying. Once you leave the ground, you're coming back down, in one fashion or another. And it's only your hands on the yoke.
Checklist usage (along with good mission prep, briefing, and risk assessment) were bedrock for us. In retrospect, the process seems to be designed to make the mission's outcome a foregone conclusion. Nothing is ever 100 percent, but if you have a good process, the odds greatly increase in your favor. And... vice versa...
sevettjr@reddit
Not all hobbyists ignore the checklists, but I think a lot of them do, for the same reason that no one preflights their car. Over time, we have a tendency to get complacent because we never find things wrong, so we lose the expectation of finding things wrong. And for the relatively simple airplanes, what are the consequences of forgetting to set the mixture, or turning on the fuel pump? Usually none.
I’m not saying we don’t need the checklists, and I’m not excusing anyone who doesn’t use them. I’m just making an observation.
grain_farmer@reddit
I think this is a regional variation. I found in UK, Germany, Czech Republic, Austria people flew quite rigidly within the rules, especially in the UK and Germany.
I have not flown in the US but been some self loading cargo with some GA pilots. Very lax.
You seem a similar contrast between heli pilots and fixed wing too IMO.
space_bollocks@reddit
Same boat as you. Professional 91 pilot, and GA instructor for fun. I don't do any initial training anymore, I'm the local BFR / IPC / safety pilot guy, and stay pretty busy with about 14 regulars - all of whom own their own aircraft.
I don't think anyone uses the check list on the preflight. I'm going to incite violence when I say this. Most of the aircraft are 172s and PA28s. It's a small simple airplane. It's an easy checklist to turn into a "flow" or be memorized - especially since these guys fly fairly regularly. Personally, I don't use the PF checklist for my '56 C172, but I do on my Apache.
In the air, all but two of them have great checklist usage. One guy uses them to an absolute fault. I developed a checklist for landing practice. (Our airport doesn't do TnG's) It's a before takeoff checklist with all the essentials - trim, mixture, lights, etc. (For my 172s and 28s). This 172 guy will do a fuel stop taxi back then read the entire before take off checklist when it's time to go. Radios - set. Transponder - 1200. etc. Good for him. More sweet sweet hobbs time for me.
The other two are awesome pilots. One flies a Grumman Cheetah and the other an 80s A36. These two guys use their aircraft for business and fly them like a personal airline. Regularly 200-300hrs a year. They've got it all down pat. I mean, I get it. I'm a CFI and it's a special emphasis area and I have to hit them over the head! But just because I want to have you all over at my place with pitchforks...it's a Grumman Cheetah. Cruise check is like...Set your RPM. Lean your mixture. Fuel pump off. Lights. DG. Altimeter. It's not that complicated. But now pick up a piece of paper to make the FAA happy.
Again I whack them over the head on the debrief, and then they go right back to it.
Recent-Day3062@reddit
I’d say one problem is simply not realizing the fallibility of the human mind. Older men, especially quite successful ones, have decades to learn about their company and industry and feel - maybe correctly - that they can make quick decisions. But they wrongly believe that this applies to other things.
When you come down to it, checklists are the way to overcome the fallibility of the brain - especially during single pilot.
I was taught young never to skip a checklist or try to do it from memory. I can’t believe people actually do it.
Vithar@reddit
I love checklists and always follow them. That said, paper checklists are super annoying and unsatisfying. The old school flip-tab checklists that for some reason stopped being manufactured like in the 80s or something, where the best tool for checklist compliance ever. They should make a comeback. Doesn't help with the preflight, but it makes inflight checklist following so much easier.
greaseorbounce@reddit
Having checklists in the EFIS has helped me a lot. In a very small cockpit of a plane that isn't easy to take hands off controls (long ez and pitts) managing paper checklists was such a pain that I started getting sloppy with them. Going digital allowed me to easily get back to them.
I do the preflight walk usually without checklist in hand, but then go line by line and sign them off, and if I'm not 100% sure I've checked that item, I walk my happy ass back over to check.
Anyone who flies with a full featured EFIS or an iPad on their knee has no excuse, it's too easy.
Now emergency flows I generally just hangar fly the checklists over and over until I am confident I have them fully memorized, because messing with digital nonsense to pull up a checklist is not something I should be wasting time doing when stuff gets quiet.
I audit myself on that memorization regularly.
Buzz407@reddit
I'm a religious adherent to checklists. Don't wanna die.
srdev_ct@reddit
ABSOLUTELY not for me. I'm an instrument rated pilot in a flying club, hobby only, 300+ hours, and I RELIGIOUSLY follow checklists as if my life depended on it. well, BECAUSE IT FRIGGIN DOES.
I get angry at the complacency of some pilots. I do a full pre-flight checklist, before-start checklist, startup checklist, pre taxi, run-up, takeoff brief (out loud, TO MYSELF in the plane), and always do a landing checklist- will I always follow a enroute climb checklist? -- probably not- Full open throttle mixture full rich, climb at 90- 3 items, don't need it, but I will do an cruise, descent, and landing checklist every time.
Also, a shutdown checklist. Yes i know how to do it, but in a rush I missed not turning off the avionics first-- nothing happened,but i understand why it should be done-- realized the miss, now i follow that as well. The few extra seconds is nothing.
keenly_disinterested@reddit
I have no problem with people completing procedures without a checklist as long as they use the checklist to back themselves up. After all, it's a "checklist," not a "do-list."
Muted-Rhubarb2143@reddit
Yet what really is killing them is deliberately doing shit they have been repeatedly told not to do. Checklists are fine but let’s be real it’s sort of a performance at some level “look at what a good boy I am!!”.
kkcfi@reddit
I'd not say all, but I'd say a lot, especially as they start counting their hours. As an instructor, I watch and try to hear people closely if I have not flown with them before. To figure out who's going to be flying the airplane - the pilot or their "ego" :)
Every once in a while, I do have the privilege of meeting some "aviators" and end up learning a lot just by being around them.
phxcobraz@reddit
There are some really bad examples I have seen. Friend's I've known for years, thousands of hours, who I figured were really safe. They barely did a pre-flight and never touched a checklist. I had to point out a fuel leak on one because he barely glanced at the right side of the aircraft. That same guy later died in an accident in a Carbon Cub.
I've definitely moved to a do-check flow. I own my Mooney and am the only one flying it. I will walk around, check all the items from memory, and then grab the checklist and confirm I handled everything on it. And frequently I do miss something and reviewing the checklist makes me go look(something like didn't check both static ports). I still follow it religiously during runup and taxi because that shit will kill you fast.
In flight or pre-landing checklist I just run through things like GUMPF. Which I think is a good reminder that despite the checklist being in the POH, you can often reorder it to flow better. I really like the Checkmate cards, as they flow far better than whatever was written in the 1960s.
MrPlake@reddit
I don’t see a problem with doing a walk around without a checklist if you know everything but at the end I go through it again and usually I’ll miss one thing then go over it and done.
Some pilots I’ve flown with uh yeah. They allergic as hell last guy I flew with on Saturday literally skimmed it and said good while kissing like 10 items which I caught and did for him. My grandfather who has a 182 is also allergic as fuck to checklists and I noted this before I had my license
Rictor_Scale@reddit
What helped me was adding the official checklist into Foreflight and re-organizing it a bit into a walk-around CCW "flow". I included other personal items like sunglasses handy, battery pack & USB cable ready, Synthetic vision centered, fuel timer started, etc which helped me never miss anything.
DeepDistribution7386@reddit
I think many "hobby pilots" may fly one airplane type, often it is very simple, and they know everything in their head. After all, how complex is the startup flow in a Piper Cub or 172? I think owner-pilots who are flying more complex aircraft- pressurized twins, jets, etc, do use checklists just because there is so much more going on. In your example not being able to remember what to inspect on an external preflight of a small plane without a checklist... maybe that guy does need one but I think most of us could handle that using memory alone.
porttack@reddit
Recently flew with an aircraft owner who was surprised to find there was a checklist in the plane. It wasn't a complete one.
hawker1172@reddit
Airline pilots do not use checklists on external inspections. Nothing wrong with that if you are proficient, competent, and thorough. If you are missing stuff your proficiency or attitude does not meet the qualification standard.
akav8r@reddit
I was flying with an older guy the other day. He knows that I want him using the checklist. So he starts going through the before start checklist, the start checklist, the before taxi checklist, the before takeoff checklist.... and we hadn't even started the plane yet.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
I've had this exact experience 😭😭
Ok-Money2811@reddit
Try being a Cirrus instructor…you haven’t seen anything yet
FatFireNordic@reddit
Very common. I fly with GA pilots in a while. Checklist is not really a thing. Unless the plane have been hit by a car, they wouldn't notice.
Vailacs@reddit
I do almost zero GA now but shutdown checklist was about the only one i did. GA checklist are ass in how they are designed. I used to rant how they were how to fly list. Everything is either self correcting or flying 101 stuff. Like if your someone who rents a random sky chicken 5 hours a year then yeah maybe the how to fly list is okay.
mkosmo@reddit
I always argued that the before-takeoff was the most critical in light GA. It covered the shit that would kill you quickest.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Nothing stopping you from designing your own ones, suitable to the type of flying you do, as long as you cover all the killer items.
Even a poorly designed checklist is better than no checklist.
MasterChain9208@reddit
How did you get into production flight test if you don’t mind me asking?
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
Worked sales at the place before, left to get flight time for a few years and stayed friends with the chief pilot, then came back later as a contract pilot and he offered me a full time position. It's mostly luck, but also having a mechanical background and survey experience helps
MasterChain9208@reddit
Ok nice, I was just wondering because I’m kinda interested in that type of flying but it seems like people that get into that field have either a military or engineering background which I do not have currently.
Gulag_For_Brits@reddit (OP)
Having a maintenance background helps a lot. The best way to get your foot in the door without having a degree in test flying is to work at manufacturer and try to get into the low key flights, and work your way up from there if they allow for it
MasterChain9208@reddit
Thanks I appreciate the info
MasterChain9208@reddit
Ok nice, I was just wondering because I’m kinda interested in that type of flying but it seems like people that get into that field have either a military or engineering background which I do not have currently.
Silly_Rub_6304@reddit
Not just hobby pilots.
When I worked for a small operator doing ground ops (who had waivers for several things, I don't want to say any more for fear of being identified), I never saw him or his more junior pilots using checklists. He had 2,000+ hours and so did many of the guys who worked for him.
When I was flying, I NEVER once skipped using a checklist. Not on a single flight.
Oh, and the guy I worked for crashed his plane and we all think it's because he didn't run checklists for a boost pump.
rcbif@reddit
No.
I'm a GA pilot, and my glider club members joke that when I'm done with my pre-flights, the annual may as well be signed off on.
Big_Assignment5949@reddit
I was shocked how vibes-based GA flying was when I first moved into it. Part of me gets it; you're paid by the Hobbs or paying by Hobbs. You don't want to read a checklist when you know how to start the engine and get going. But I was used to pretty rigid checklist compliance and GA wasn't it.
Mike__O@reddit
Doing flows without a checklist was a big learning curve me coming from the Air Force to the airlines. The Air Force emphasizes read-and-do checklist usage. You get out the checklist first and do the thing. In the airlines (at least the ones who have trained me) the expectation is you do-then-read. You do the flow, then reference the checklist to make sure you accomplished all the steps in that checklist. The checklist still gets referenced every time for every procedure, but it's not as direct as how I was trained in the Air Force
sirduckbert@reddit
I’m in the Canadian Air Force and we are pretty much expected to do pre start and start checklists from memory, and then we do challenge response after that
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
I use my checklist every time. And I'm verbal with it. Being verbal with the checklist puts the passengers that might be apprehensive flying a sep at ease
soarheadgdon@reddit
First, this is why we have flight reviews. All GA pilots seem to get complacent when their motor skills come together and they start relying on them to get them out of trouble and start to disengage their PFC. This will get them by until something outside of their experience pops up. Once a pilot has an engine failure or roughness due to fuel contamination they will never forget the sumps again. It’s how we learn. When you tell a toddler not to touch something because it’s hot it doesn’t mean much until they experience hot. The best we can do is tell them stories from our own experience. That’s why the magazines run the columns like “I Learned About Flying From That” and “Never Again.” That and flight reviews are the best we can do.
makgross@reddit
I definitely see significant problems with checklist usage, but preflight isn’t the problem area. Most commonly, when the workload gets close to saturation, the checklists are first out the window. So, no cruise, descent, and especially before-landing checklists. It’s particularly bad for instrument students as they are, at least early on, continually operating at task saturation.
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
And a b757 didn’t crash cause duct tape was left on the static ports.
I mean this happens outside of GA too I think. Hopefully rare but I wouldn’t say on a cold and rainy or cold and snowy day airline pilots don’t forget or miss something.
jimngo@reddit
Repetition forms habit. Their PPL instructor never insisted on habitualizing checklist usage. Blame them.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I work as a production test pilot full time, but I do some flight instruction on the side for some extra fun cash and just to keep sharp. Since I'm only doing occasional flight instruction now, I'm doing primarily a lot more BFRs, and holy crap, every single one the main take away is checklist useage?????
Like every single flight review feels almost identical. Middle aged man, fine stick and rudder skills, knows systems just fine, can run through a foreflight weather briefing and flight plan to a competent level, but as soon as we start walking around the plane they start darting around and forgetting half of what they should be looking at. Just recently I did a guy who was coming back from a year off of flying and he told me with total confidence that he "just walks around the plane and inspects every system first, then reads the checklist afterwards just in case". I decided to let him do that just to prove a point and sure enough he missed a bunch of fuel sumps, the lights, flaps, and every single antenna. Even in flight when we came back he was visibly struggling to find where to begin for starting and shutting down, despite the checklist being on his kneeboard the whole time.
We had a nice long discussion and everyone who's had this problem realizes by the end and usually shows improvement or buys a kneeboard soon after to help with checklist useage at least. But this problem is so consistent and debilitating for these occasional pilots in my experience, I'm a little surprised every time that it's as common as it is. Does anyone else have the same experience with this level of regularity?
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