Had a scary day- trying to learn what I did wrong
Posted by Friendly_Subject4096@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 148 comments
Hey all, looking for some advice after a scary day on the water. I was moving my sailboat (Endeavor 33) from winter storage to the docks. As I got onto Lake Michigan, the wind picked up greatly. Probably about 25 knots. My front sail came unfurled, and we couldn't do anything to get it under control. The sail wouldn't furl, and even when I tried to put the boat in irons, the load was so strong we couldn't really do anything. The genoa ended up tearing, and even when we tried to just lower the halyard, the load was too much, and we couldn't get it down. We ended up getting a tow back into the river and we'll try a different day.
I'm about 99% that the genoa was rigged correctly, but it definitely might have been furled incorrectly.
I am trying to (1) figure out what happened, (2) get advice on what I should have done once it was under load and we couldn't recover.
Thank you for any advice.
climenuts@reddit
A few takeaways for you. 1. Ensure your furling line is created unless you want to unfurl the sail. 2. At a minimum once per season lower and raise the Genoa to ensure the luff groove runs smoothly. If it doesn't you need to clean and lubricate it. 3. Ensure your Genoa sheets have figure eight or barrel knots in the bitter end so they can't escape the first block. It is better to cut the bitter end off in a jam than lose it entirely. 4. Practice lowering and raising the Genoa underway with some breeze (after #2 is satisfied). You'll learn what angles and forces help and hinder it. With some boatspeed the sail will ride on the bow wave so you don't need to be perfect about gathering it on deck when dropping it when the weather is spicy. 5. Everyone has scares. They get fewer and farther between as you learn. You learn much more from struggling through a situation than you do calling CG. Judge your time to the lee shore, anchoring opportunities, etc, and only call CG if you are going to run out of time before they can get there. 6. A flogging sail in breeze is a terrifying thing to a novice sailor and people panic when they hear it. Reefing, sail changes, feathering in a squall, etc. Is LOUD in 30+kts. Be mentally prepared for it and just get to business.
OldGaffer66@reddit
#1 should be: "Check the weather forecast before you go out". We rarely get unexpected strong winds these days with the accuracy of weather forecasts.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks. Lots of good stuff here. We struggled for about an hour before finally calling the coast guard. My dad and son were on board, and once I ran out of ideas I was just scared and wanted to get them to safety.
Lower-Owl-314@reddit
Good questions.
A lot of good advice below. As noted a lot more can go wrong with furlers than people realize. And when something goes wrong with them it is often a hassle, sometimes an emergency to fix. I singlehand my boat a lot, so I think about this often.
Some other thoughts not mentioned:
I noted you did not mention hoving to. Do you know how to do this? Hoving to is the best tactic in an emergency when you need time to think or inspect things. When hoved to 26 kts of breeze is not that bad. An Endeavor 33 should hove to well.
Since you might need to get a new jib anyway, consider hanked on sails and a working jib. I have a 115 jib on a furler, but I sometimes wish that it was hanked on (mostly at night in high wind). The reason is because if something happens and you need to depower, fast, a hanked on jib will almost always collapse to the deck when you blow the halyard. You can even add a downhaul to make it faster. As a solo sailor I am always worried that one day, or more likely, one night, my furler will malfunction and I'll be in a world of hurt. I have debated going to hanked on for the past few years. It is really a balance between convenience and ultimate safety.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
I’ve got som googling to do! Thanks for the tips.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
This might be a stupid question, so please forgive me. Does anyone ever attach a separate line to the front sail, for the purpose of pulling the sail down? If this is the dumbest question ever, please forgive me. Seems like a decent “in case of emergency” option, but I’d appreciate the groups thoughts.
Lower-Owl-314@reddit
This is called a down-haul. They are sometimes rigged on hanked-on sails. I believe they would not work on a fuler because the luff tape would bind in the groove.
elmalabarista65@reddit
Sometimes we have days of bliss and sometimes we have days of terror. Days where nothing goes to plan and it’s easy to people getting hurt. This is part of sailing, and indeed part of life. Saddle up and don’t let it knock your confidence too much. No one died, the sail can be repaired and much wiser folk than I on here are helping you learn what you will slowly take in for yourself. Don’t feel too bad. It’s an experience is all. Good luck and fair winds
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
ccgarnaal@reddit
Hey, Quick tip from a lifeboat guy that had to resolve this situation a few times. If a headsail furler is 100% blocked. Cut the jib sheet 1.5m from the sail. And start motoring in circles. The jib will keep pointing downwind like a flag and rol itself with every circle. Motor 10-15 circles and it is rolled completely. Use the leftover sheet to tie up the sails.
Leaving the sheet on full length guarantees you will be whipped by a very angry painfull sheet.
pttrsmrt@reddit
This sounds too good to be true? I mean the logic checks out, but why have I never heard of this before?
Raneynickelfire@reddit
Because you have to be incredibly lucky for it to actually work.
TheVoiceOfEurope@reddit
That is the textbook sollution for a furling genoa where the furler is stuck and the genoa wont come down.
Obviously things are a lot harder and more violent in real life, but at least it gives something to try. I mean, good luck motoring in circles in +50kts.
DadBodFacade@reddit
This should be pinned comment. Brilliant.
Same_Detective_7433@reddit
I am not really sure that would work on my boat, I have a cutter stay, and a 150 genoa, it would probably make a giant mess. But it is an idea...
ccgarnaal@reddit
If you have 2 forestays then forget about it. But with a single furler it works great.
I have even done it with the lifeboat and the sailboat in question under tow.
But then it does take some time.
jawisi@reddit
You could unfurl the staysail and sheet it tight for a blow-through tack.
lnm1969@reddit
You have to sheet it in to get control of the sheet to cut it then ye ? Getting 1.5 m behind the leech of a flogging genoa is not a good place to be....
ccgarnaal@reddit
Yes, sheet in while in irons. Then cut just before the winch. If you already lost it and it's flogging. Then let it go. But good chance it will snag on something while you try this manoever and you have to go on deck to cut it anyway.
RoburLC@reddit
An old salt I knew, kept a hatchet by the helm. He maintained that sometimes it was best to let a sail 'go wild', than to carry its force into trouble for him. Cutting a trouble sheet fast can be the difference between a bad situation, and foundering. Lose a sail, keep the boat.
Arizona_Sailor@reddit
This is the debate for furled vs hanked on jib. I don’t have a resolution and discussion was not an option out on L. Michigan. Would OP be able to say what was the final analysis? I’ve had this happen 2X. Once it was an override at the furling drum and another the forestay parted. In the former we motored dead to wind and jimmied it free. In the latter, the jib halyard held long enough to furl and we anchored at the nearest cove called Little Dix Bay, Virgin Gorda, BVI. Later, we litigated the furl v. hank case over boat drinks. The case was dismissed due to no contest by the parties involved. Or maybe it was the Bacardi.
_Mister_Pickle_@reddit
Lots of great info in the post for dealing with a furling headsail. Truth is they are great when you are sailing with the group you had on board until they aren’t. I’ve passed most of the 109 & 105 fleet in the Chicago to Mac race who all were forced to drop their main and sail on jib alone because the strong winds forced their jib to unfurl.
If the drum was unloaded and ready to roll back up, then we will put the furling line on a winch. Especially for those massive genoas it can be impossible for one human to pull that back in manually without some assistance when you are caught off guard with a full sail.
That said the other thing for next time when you are out with a limited crew is to take it easy as you feel the wind pick up. Be cautious on the amount of sail you and your crew can handle. Lake Michigan will catch you off guard quickly if you aren’t careful.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! Still no definitive answer, but I’m about 95% it was a furler malfunction. And, I’m confident it was at least some point operator error from when we rigged the Genoa. I do think there might have been some mechanical malfunction too, but I believe it was mostly my fault.
DadBodFacade@reddit
First. We all have these days. No one was hurt or injured, and the damage was minor. So don't be hard yourself.
A lesson learned. I know my goal is not to repeat the same mistake/lesson more than twice.
Sometimes it is very difficult to furl a sail in a breeze when it it flogging and it can become necessary to use a winch. But be careful. Inspect the drum and the head of the sail for fouled lines and damage. The primary issues I've had with furling are catching other halyards during the fuel. If you use the winch and it starts to furl and you don't see issues at the drum or head, you should be good to proceed. It should become easier to furl once you get few wraps.
Just want to take this cautious as you don't want to damage the drum, foil or headstay.
tater_salad00@reddit
Lots of discussion about how to furl the head sail once it is deployed. I have had issues at times with a fouled drum(I now let out my headsail in a controlled manner) or how to drop the sail(I drop my sails once a year for this reason).
I might have missed the discussion on how your head sail came unfurled on accident. I keep my furling line on a cleat while not in use or when not fully deployed(we reef a lot with a 155) as a first line of defense. If the line can't play out the sail cant unfurl. I also store my jib sheets so that they are secured to the pulpit when storing the boat. I know some leave their sheets secured at their primary winches, but I prefer to put them away. If the sheets can't play out the sail is also prevented from unfurling. Both the sheets and furling line should be secured.
I only bring this second part up as it is possible if it came unfurled underway with your storing methods it could come unfurled at the dock in a blow.
Raneynickelfire@reddit
That sounds an awful lot like either the furling line was backwards on the drum, or the sail was wrapped backwards.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Very good thoughts! I’ll look into it.
Reasonable-Pension30@reddit
In hindsight you could have let the sail flog so the boat would level enough to get someone up front to pull it down with the engine on. I've been in that situation and it is not fun. Glad you are ok.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks. Part of the issue is that my wife wasn't comfortable at the wheel, and she wasn't strong enough to pull it down. The wind was nuts. And, in case anyone wants to yell at me. yes, I checked the forecast about 20 mins before I left, and these winds came out of nowhere.
SpunkyDaisy@reddit
I see you are from Chicago/Monroe (had a hunch you were in Chicago, so I creeped a bit)- welcome to the Chicago sailing community, we are a great bunch of people who love helping each other.
I will say, Chicago sailing weather can change on a dime, especially early in the spring and in the fall, and has been super annoying these past few weeks. When you go out, always expect that it can change quickly and have a plan.
We dock out of 31st, but are members at Columbia. If you want to meet up at the Columbia bar to meet other sailors, let me know.
Also, racing is a great way to improve your skills, and boats are always looking for crew.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thank you! I’d love to meet up. I’ll send you a DM!
craftaliis@reddit
Part of avoiding this in future, and also for general safety, your wife should spend more time at the wheel. If you are sailing double handed, it is important that both are able to do basics. Who gets you back to dock if something happens to you?
-also a wife
olddoglearnsnewtrick@reddit
Are you proposing as an alternate wife? ;)
craftaliis@reddit
Hell no, I have my own crew and boat to mind to.
But last owners of our boat were also a couple who had set to their tasks, which led to problems with ”I don’t know about this because he used to always do it” (main problem was him being deceased). So we decided that we will switch tasks and both should know basics. And now we are also training our 10-year old to do as much as he is able to. Main task for 2-year old is not to fall in to the sea.
olddoglearnsnewtrick@reddit
Of course I was joking. I think your stance is super wise. If one of you gets incapacitated for whatever reason, handling dails, navigation, radio, motor and comms should be well exercised by the other so they can be performed even under duress of the stressful conditions.
craftaliis@reddit
We are raising a future junior sailing team, or cranky teenagers that won’t go near the sea because they got too much of it as kids… Time will tell ;)
olddoglearnsnewtrick@reddit
In my case I was at sea with Dad until my late teens, then girls and other attractions made me become a landlubber, but now as an old guy I crave to be on something moving under my feet :
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Totally. We are working towards this. This is our second season, so we are still learning. Honestly, just holding the boat steady at the wheel took a ton of strength. And I was alternating between full throttle and idling. It was super stressful. BUT, you are absolutely right and one of our main lessons learned from yesterday is that my wife needs to spend a lot more time at the wheel.
Lazy-Conversation-48@reddit
As a wife is second this. Our job can be very hard to furl on windy days. It is definitely a job better suited to my husband who is literally twice my size. Steering the wheel should be something the wife gets comfortable with - under motor it should be easy.
Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit
If you're hoping to sail where your both the only person capable of being at the wheel AND the only person capable of dealing with an issue like this away from the wheel..... you need to realize what that means and plan accordingly, that might mean putting up less sail, or lowering sail long before you need to, and those decisions are the core of what makes for safe sailing
Reasonable-Pension30@reddit
If it hasn't happened to you it just means it hasn't happened to you yet. My armchair guess is you could have had more wraps around the headsail with the sheets and had the sheets cleated off better maybe ? Hope it hasn't put you ( or, more importantly your wife ) off sailing!
DFMO@reddit
Agree. Sometimes in a panic best thing to do is just let her flog, de power, and just pull it in as quickly as possible.
chisailor@reddit
Photos are helpful in a situation like this. Hard to know if anything was rigged right based on text.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yeah, didn't really have an opportunity to take pictures. I was hanging on for dear life and waiting for the coast guard. But, I know you are right.
chisailor@reddit
I meant photos of the setup once you are back on the dock….
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I should have done this. My anxiety was still in high gear, and once we were docked I just pulled the sail down and got off the boat. I should have explored more once we were back to safety. Another lesson learned!
slopirate@reddit
Even photos from after you got back to safety would probably be helpful
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yeah, you are absolutely right. After getting towed back in, I was so stressed I totally forgot. But, I should have done that.
chisailor@reddit
Also I’m a Chicago based sailing instructor/ captain. Happy to come take a look if you are in one of the local yards.
sailingfirst@reddit
I'm a delivery skipper, and before I take any boat out, I run the engine in forward and reverse, unroll and roll up the jib, hoist and drop the main, check the reefing system, and check the anchor. I may have to reposition the boat if the wind is from the stern.
If I can't check the sails before a delivery, I motor the whole way. I assume they are fouled until proven otherwise.
In short, everything on every boat is broken unless proven otherwise in the last 5 minutes. Just like every gun is loaded unless you just cleared it yourself a second ago.
Rookie mistake, assuming the rig would work after the winter.
Now you know.
You know what they say about paranoia? It's not paranoid if they are out to get you.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yeah, this is good advice. I wasn't assuming that the rigging was right, but I was assuming it wouldn't come unfurled! I'll now be paranoid, and tie them down if I'm not planning on using them, or if I haven't tested them yet. Good advice. Thank you!
clutchied@reddit
When i was first learning to sail a dinghy I couldn't get the main halyard to lock at the top. It had one of those crimped on balls on the steel cable.
I pulled and tugged and ended up tearing the crap out of my hands.
You know what it was? My buddy behind me was holding the boom down and I couldn't get enough slack to pull it over the top to lock it. He literally was stopping it from slightly lifting to given enough slack and so I was fighting him with a massive mechanical disadvantage.
I was furious when I figured it out but it was a lesson for me to not just do the same thing over and over if it wasn't working. Stop, look around and see what else is possible.
Nearby_Maize_913@reddit
although sometimes seems counter intuitive, furling foresail when pointed downwind can be easier than head to wind... but I under stand that can seem sketchy
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
We tried that too! It did help, but not enough.
mwax321@reddit
Pop the engine on and motor downwind. This reduces the apparent wind.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! We had the engine on the whole time. I needs it to counteract the wind. We started off trying to fix the sail in irons, but tried just about every point of sail!
cyricmccallen@reddit
Is there a reason you didn’t point into the wind and try dropping the whole sail?
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
We did. Couldn’t pull the sail down. I think my wife lacked the strength to pull it down under the conditions. One lesson we’ve definitely learned is that she needs more time at the wheel so we could have swapped positions.
Aware_Magazine_2042@reddit
This really works when you have the main deployed and blocking the wind against the headsail or in light winds, but in these conditions not likely to happen.
The thing is that sails operate over apparent wind, and down wind the apparent wind is much lower than upwind, so long as your boat speed is close to you wind speed (apparent wind in that case is wind speed - boat speed). But if the wind speed is too great, then it’ll over power the sail.
M37841@reddit
Three thoughts:
When you hoisted the genoa did you have your drum full of furling line? Easy to forget that (so I claim, having forgotten that!), then if the sail comes loose rather than the drum unfurling, when you try to furl it in there’s not enough line in the drum
If the sail actually unfurled rather than just came loose, then you will have pulled a lot of line into the drum quickly so might have crossed lines in the drum. Very hard to fix in a blow, you need to repeatedly winch and then release the curler, with a bowman seeing what is happening, and hope in uncrosses before the line snaps. At least that’s what we did.
For getting an unruly sail furled: we find our genoa furls easier when it’s on the port side, either almost htw or at a broad reach angle with the main right out blanking it - worth noting that in my not very extensive experience the broad reach approach works well on 100 or 110, not so much on a 130 or 140
I don’t claim a massive amount of experience here, apart from we were in the situation you were, got away with it, so spent time then trying to figure out how not to get there again.
Millennialfalcon1995@reddit
Had a friend have a jam because the halyard tension was not tight enough. Wouldn’t fuel or unfurl properly because of that. Might double check halyard tightness as well!
jawisi@reddit
Yes. Also check the angle from the top swivel to the sheave. If it’s nearly parallel to the headstay, consider adding a halyard deflector.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! I'll have to spend some time thinking about this. Great thoughts.
Potential_Lie2302@reddit
First, nobody got hurt and you got safely back to port. So, you had a little adventure/learning experience. Everyone makes mistakes, that’s how we level up.
A couple of things:
Obviously your furling line wasn’t locked in. Check that every time you tie up and before you leave the dock. I’ve had my furling genoa stay put in 40kts with no issues. If the furling line is locked + the sail is wrapped tight + the sheets are wrapped around the sail and locked in, it’s not going anywhere.
Rolling up the sail can be more easily accomplished downwind on a broad reach. I’ve been in situations where it kicked up over 25kts when I had full sails trying to roll up the heads’l. Turning into the wind can work, but it will power you up before you are head to wind and if a wave hits you wrong, then you’re back on a strong beat. Augmenting with the motor may be possible. But an easier (and more comfortable) option is to get on a broad reach, blanket the heads’l with the main and then furl. Try it out in 10kts to get the feel. That can be a new tool in your tool belt.
gomets1969@reddit
Had a similar situation like that with my genoa a few years ago, and after 10 minutes of unsuccessfully trying to get it furled, it finally dawned on me - "Just drop the damn thing." So that's what I did. Sorry it ended up tearing on you. That's a tough way to kick off the season.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! We tried to drop it, but I don’t think my wife was strong enough to pull it down in the wind. We learned a lot of lessons yesterday. :)
H0LD_FAST@reddit
It’s much easier for your wife (or anyone for that matter) to stand at the wheel and motor straight into the wind than it is for them to go forward and do the scary hard work (like pull a sail down when it’s flogging in their face). I know it’s already been said, but as the captain you need to be able to direct your crew to do jobs they might not be knowledgable/comfortable with if it allows you to do what needs to be done. I know it’s easy to blame equipment, but unless you went up there and grabbed fistfuls of sail and dragged them down with your body weight and then told us it was still jammed, that was probably the next best option (unless you had something dumb like a knot in the halyard that was going through a clutch or something preventing the sail from coming down)
Sorry you had a rough day on the water. Great job getting back safely and bringing this topic up for everyone to discuss.
IvorTheEngine@reddit
One strategy you didn't mention was the anchor. You might have been able to drop anchor, which would hold the boat head-to-wind and let you both wrestle with the sail, or wait for the wind to blow over.
H0LD_FAST@reddit
This is horrible advice. Anchoring means being close to shore, and a Genoa out with even a tiny bit of wind would sail the boat all over the place and drag the anchor around. I’ve tried to fix a Furler issue with the Genoa out on anchor, and in like 5 kts of breeze it was trying to sail forward of the anchor
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Interesting. Didn’t even think about anchoring! Good advice.
Same_Detective_7433@reddit
Next time, put up a fully(or wherever) reffed mailsail first, and deploy your genoa second. This will give you more control of your boat. The genboa is great and gives you a great pull, but is also more powerful than your main, and is better to add it as a power up, rather than as a main. There is a reason the Main is called the main.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! We had no intention of deploying the Genoa yesterday at all. It just started to unfurl and we couldn’t get it refueled. But, point taken! Thanks!
OshunBlu@reddit
When i end up deep in the gusty mess and getting a sail down safely is not an option, I always opt for a broad or beam reach if I've got the room to do it. It can give you the time and calm you need to come up with a next step.
Maybe not the furling advice you're looking for, but getting to a more civil point of sail can often be the first step toward solving a problem.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Ok, this brings up an interesting question. I didn't have the main sail up. Should I have raised it? There was so my anxiety around the genoa, I'm not even sure I could have gotten the main sail up, but should I have tried? In retrospect, that might have taken some of the load off the genoa?
Same_Detective_7433@reddit
With no context, it is hard to say, but yes, typically you would want SOME mainsail, as it balances the boat, and moves your power aft. It might have made the boat wasier to handle, and you could have chosen a broad reach, and with your genoa sheet dropped completely, the genoa at least would have been off the boat, giving you a chance to figure out the furler.
But again, I was not there and your original post has very little detail as to why the furler let go.
Dr_Ramekins_MD@reddit
Generally you do want both sails up if you're sailing. In higher winds, especially- when you're struggling to control the boat, having an unbalance sail plan out is only going to make it harder. Reefed main and reefed jib/genoa is usually going to sail better than jib only.
OshunBlu@reddit
It's tough to say without being there, but having the main up. Even reefed, can definitely help with keeping the bow to the wind. I dunno if I'd have considered trying to get it up while having a hard time with a Genoa though. Sounds like stacking one struggle on top of another at that point.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! The thoughts of adding another sail to the mix wasn't at the top of my list today! But, good to know for problem solving next time.
n3w1ight@reddit
Turn your boat into wind.
LuckyErro@reddit
Jib should not be tearing at only 25 knot's. I would have your sails cleaned and checked by a sailmaker.
Same_Detective_7433@reddit
A luffing sail that is great in storng winds will absolutely tear in low winds, 5-8 knots is enough to rip up almost any sail when they are simply being beaten to death.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Sails are only two years old, and were serviced this off season!
meatsmoothie82@reddit
We once lost a damn near brand new headsail to a cotter that had poked out in the wrong place at the wrong time. it furled out, caught, caught the wind and that pin went through there like a knife through butter
LuckyErro@reddit
Then something is drastically wrong.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yeah, that much I know. :)
rkiloquebec@reddit
Hey man.
Wind got sporty this afternoon in Michigan. My boat is still in its cradle and was rocking a bit.
In a blow, releasing the halyard won’t do anything, I’ve seen sails on the deck (on Hanks, not a track) shoot right back up the forestay when they weren’t lashed down.
If someone isn’t comfortable going forward, then you did the right thing in sacrificing the sail. Trying to jam her into irons was also the right move.
Unfortunately the only way to get a sail down in that situation is to go forward and fight it down and lash it. A couple of bungles and crribeaners rigged on the bow are a good thing to have ready
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the kind words. Can you explain this more? "A couple of bungles and crribeaners rigged on the bow are a good thing to have ready"
Not sure I understand
xiga@reddit
Hey man, super scary situation, I think it’s great that you knew when you were out of your depth and called for help.
We also have a 2 ft line secured to the port side toe rail with a clip on the free end. When I drop the halyard of the headsail, I can clip the head so it doesn’t fly up OR I’ve seen some boats clip across to starboard to keep the sail down on the deck. (This won’t necessarily work with a furler unless you fully drop the sail.)
If I’m on bow and it’s crazy windy I have a tether hooked up to my pfd (make sure your PFD is rated for this, with a tether point). We have a short rail on deck that I’ll clip on and I can still reach most of the bow. https://www.westmarine.com/west-marine-orc-specification-double-safety-tether-11878691.html
nicholhawking@reddit
I believe they meant bungees
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Oh, just to secure the sail? That makes sense.
Over-Toe2763@reddit
When you say too much load: did you try loosening the sheets and furling in?
If that does not work: I have had that because of a broken forestay: release the sheet, start the engine and start turning circles;: the sail will wrap around the forestay. Keep turning until all of the sail is ‘furled’.
This saves me once
klaagmeaan@reddit
If it unfurled the furling line probably was not secured. Then because it unfurled uncontrolled, the line is too loose on the drum, causing it to get into a knot on the drum when you try to pull it. At that point it gets hard to be on the front deck to fix anything, because of the wild whipping sail and sea conditions.
My advise, silly as it sounds, is to roll up the sail by going in circles with the boat. I had to do this once to 'fix' this situation and save the sail. Took a while but then I could lash it.
After that I always made sure to have tension on the furling line, and give it a firm jerk every now and then when unfurling the sail. To make sure that the line is tight and not rolling up on top of itself. I sailed 35k miles.
KeyGroundbreaking390@reddit
Good to have a bag full of 5' lengths of line on the boat. I always stuff a couple in my pocket. Comes in handy so often.
For instance, in this case when you can't douse or furl a head sail. Whip out those lines, gather in the sail and lash it to the forestay. Reaching up as high as you can and pulling down as you gather in and lash down sail, you can reduce windage enough to get control of the boat and back to the dock. Diagnosing and fixing the problem can be better done later at the dock on a calm day, rather than in the middle of an emergency.
FutureConsistent8611@reddit
We keep a sail tie around the genoa until we are ready to sail. Or the sheets wrapped around the genoa a couple of times. That way the wind can't catch any part of the sail to unfurl it.
HappilyDisengaged@reddit
The scary days make the best sailors. Could have been rigged wrong but I’ve learned reef early and often. Best time to reef is when it first pops into your head to do it
FarAwaySailor@reddit
If you can't furl it, drop the sail. That's what boats without furlers have to do every time anyway. If you can't pull the sail down the profile when the halyard is loose, that is a big problem and you need to figure out how to fix it.
pdq_sailor@reddit
First... you take the pressure off and if that means letting it flog with no sheet on it.. so be it.. then you need to take it DOWN... which means if you have to go forward to tug the luff down ... that is what you do but the sail MUST be dropped..
I test the furling operation when rigging... and it has to be smooth as silk and reliable..
Our boat had a new mast and new furling unit installed in 2023 so two years on it and its PERFECT... great non-corroding plastic bearings... very slick system made by Faucnor - called a flat deck... I have our full hoist #3 rigged on it now. and that sail reefs vertically to a #4.... to lower the centre of effort - good for 40 to 45 knots going to windward.... a very robust well built sail...
blame_lagg@reddit
One of the reasons I've found for the furler getting stuck while furling is that the drum is partially full on the bottom row and there's no extra space on it, line gets stuck.
Expensive_Dig_6695@reddit
I’m up in Michigan today. Blowing stink today. Not a good day to be unprepared or to go out at all. Just saying. Man has to know his limitations and today would test even the most experienced. Which means… not a good day to be on the water.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
I’ve gotten a ton of useful feedback…and this comment.
Expensive_Dig_6695@reddit
Sorry, truth hurts. If a scrap of sail is too much? You made a bad decision to go out. It was gusting over 30 where I was.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
It’s wasn’t gusting like that when we left. And the forecast wasn’t calling for it either. But, hey it wouldn’t be Reddit without at least one comment like this.
ncbluetj@reddit
Sounds like some solid type 2 fun! Pour yourself a drink, relax for a day or two, and then get back out there. This is how we learn.
_Schrodingers_Gat_@reddit
So next time this happens, motor head to wind and just luff the head sail till you can furl it or douse it.
R/M37841 had some good feedback on the furler
phliff@reddit
Instead of the irons and flogging the sails try motoring downwind as fast as possible.
jupiter783@reddit
Similar situation on an endeavor. Went to roll up the headsail bc winds were ~30 but couldn’t bc the bearings in the furler were shot. Ended up motoring straight into the wind and pulled the sail down onto the deck. Saved the sail but the furler was shot. Took two of us on the foredeck to pull it down and one steering into the wind.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Interesting. Maybe that's the issue. Makes me feel better it wasn't just me!
phizbot@reddit
Just had this happen today. Was doing MOB drill in 15 knots and forgot to cleat off the furling line. Cluster ensued.
Head deep downwind about 160 degrees. Send the main out it will blanket the jib. Now you can drop the jib to the deck. Or figure out what is the furling issue.
You should always do this to furl the jib above 15 knots anyway.
When sailing 160 in a blow treat the boom sweep as a death area. An accidental jibe will snap over in a fraction of a second and will kill. We had one once at 35 knots and it was insane. Surprised the rigging didn’t explode.
mhatz14@reddit
First, kudos to you for having the modesty to come on here and ask for advise. I would need an entire textbook to list all the stupid things I have done over the last 40 years of sailing, and I still feel like that I have so much more to learn.. I have been caught by winds unexpectedly too many times, and now, I NEVER go out unlesss I study all the Windy wind models, and, OceanConnect, and see if any of them predict tough weather. Wondering if you checked the wind predictions before you left or was this something not at all in the forecast ?.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks. I did check weather channel, and windy. The wind wasn’t predicted at all. But, point taken!!
Strict-Air2434@reddit
I was at the Racine Yacht Club all day. That's about 60 miles north of Chicago. I know what your problem was. You picked the wrong day. Winds were 18-25 and gusts over 30. I was looking at the lake all day and thinking it would have been tough out there even with a good crew. (I've been sailing on the big lake for 48 years.)
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yeah, that’s a big part of it. Winds were 12 knots when I left, and the forecast only called for an increase to 18. As soon as I got back to the dock, the sun came out and the wind died down.
giwagigigi@reddit
Not sure of your cause, but one way to furl a unmanageable jib, provided the engine is reliable and you have sea room, is to go in circles getting one wrap on per rotation, until you can secure the sail. Google "What is a forced wrap in sailing?" for a complete explanation.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Oh interesting. I’ll check this out.
Candygramformrmongo@reddit
Could be. number of factors, but FYI my furler gave me trouble when I overtightened the headsail halyard. The windload could have contributed to a similar effect. Glad you made it back safely.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thank you! I’m going to start with an inspection of the furler.
Candygramformrmongo@reddit
FWIW, I think my issue was that by overtightening the halyard, the furler could not freely rotate at the tophead swivel.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Interesting. Thanks for sharing!
Candygramformrmongo@reddit
Good luck!
Kage415@reddit
Sounds like a combination of mid-rigging the furler and then discovering that your job halyard sheave in the mast (or the block if external halyard ) needs replacing and your head foil is sticky and need McLube. The mis-rigging is easy. I always get the rope on the wrong way. You have to test 2-4 times at dock for proper winding direction AND the proper tension (as mentioned in other comments) so the line does not get loose in the drum and bind/cleat on itself. A loose furler line overriding itself is pure hell.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! I wasn’t planning on using the Genoa, so wasn’t too focused on it. But, lesson learned. I should have tested it multiple times!
Infamous-Adeptness71@reddit
I presume you were trying to winch it in? Since it tore?
So you have a furling head said? And then tried to release the jib halyard after it refused to fulr? You lost me there. How is releasing the halyard going to help with the sail on a furler?
It wasn't the wind load. 95% some opposing line was not running or otherwise stuck and that prevented you from furling. When this happens you need to go into detective mode and look for any opposing lines that are clutched, stuck, whatever.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
The sail was totally out of control, and it was catching so much wind the boat was heeling too much for anyone to be at the bow. At some point I was just trying to get the front sail down. That's why we were trying to lower it.
stubobarker@reddit
There’s your problem right there. You needed to have somebody on the bow hauling the sail down. It would never have dropped, even with less load, without assistance pulling on the luff.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
My wife was pulling on it, but it just wasn't coming down. she's not a delicate flower either, so I think something else might have been wrong.
stubobarker@reddit
Perhaps so. I responded because you mentioned that it was too windy for someone to go forward.
Good luck sourcing the problem.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! I think if she was more comfortable at the wheel, I might have better luck up front
stubobarker@reddit
Strength (and weight) does matter :-)
greywar777@reddit
He did say she isnt a delicate little flower. So its not that.
slopirate@reddit
And you were unable to release the halyard from its cleat? Or you release it and it got caught on something?
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
We released it, but regardless of which direction I was pointing (started with keeping the boat in irons, but tried everything!) the sail wouldn't lower. As soon as we were back to the dock and there was no wind, it came right down.
Dutch_Ruddering@reddit
Yea, unfortunately it’s one of those situations where someone has to go forward and wrestle it down.
As a former bow guy, I have done may takedowns and peels in…uncomfortable situations.
RedBeardWrasse@reddit
Can't you let your jib sheet out on the side where you're powered and let it flap in the wind? Not really great for the sail, but you'll be instantly unpowered and should be able to use your motor to get in safely. Or am I missing something in your story?
IanSan5653@reddit
Sounds like they tried to drop it onto the deck. Pretty normal approach.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yup. Thanks! It seemed reasonable at the time- glad I am not crazy!
Infamous-Adeptness71@reddit
Did you try putting the furling line on a winch?
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
We did. But it didn't work. I think by the time we tried, several other things had gone wrong! 😄
hottenniscoach@reddit
It’s all you had left to try at that ping
Infamous-Adeptness71@reddit
ah ok. never had to do it.
whyrumalwaysgone@reddit
Hard to say what exactly went wrong from your description, but my suggestion is to get back out on the water on a calm day and furl it in and out a half dozen times and see what is binding.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks!!
Chromecoast@reddit
Speaking as an absolute beginner, conversations like this are so valuable to read. Takes some balls to come in here and admit you don't know what the hell happened too. Would love to see more of this type of conversation. Appreciate OP for the learning opportunity!
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! Honestly, the sailing subreddit is great. If this was a golf related error, I’d just be getting roasted and reading comments like “why did you do THAT?!”
I appreciate all the great feedback here. Even just hearing all the sailers sharing other stories about things going wrong helps with my confidence! Still have to get the boat to the mooring, so we’ll try again next weekend! (But maybe without the sails up!) 🤣
Dr_Ramekins_MD@reddit
I have been in a similar situation... Did you make sure the jib sheets were free?
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Yeah, we made sure they were good.
KeithDiehl@reddit
Sorry about the scary day. No fun but they do happen as we learn. Roller furlers are great but I've definitely had them get sticky and there really is little to do until you have time to go forward and mess with it a bit. The only thing I can think would be to have a splash plan that includes working it in and out...thoroughly testing the system before it is needed.
Friendly_Subject4096@reddit (OP)
Thanks! My gut is that it was a furler issue.
IanSan5653@reddit
Furlers do fail sometimes (although well maintained ones fail much less often), and you should always have a plan for what will happen if they do. It sounds like the cleat failed or the furling line broke.
If you don't plan to sail with the genoa at all that day, it never hurts to tie a line around it for safety. I typically leave a line tied around mine in case a storm hits.
Leaving the harbor in rough weather you aren't prepared for in the first place was probably a mistake, especially if you didn't intend to sail in it. Even if nothing goes wrong, motoring in 25 knots is no fun.
You should practice raising and lowering your genoa at the dock pretty regularly. This will help you learn how to do it and also allow you to check the condition of the sail and track - if it doesn't come down easily when unfurled, something is wrong. You should be able to drop the sail in a blow.
25 knots isn't a gale. It's possible it might have just been worth trying to sail into a calmer harbor using the unfurled genoa. It's better to fill the sail than the let it flog itself to pieces; you'll never get it down once it tears.
If I found myself in a situation where the genoa was unfurling in a major blow, the first thing I'd try to do is go head to wind and raise the mainsail quickly (probably with a reef or two). Having the main up allows you to run downwind and blanket the genoa, easing the load significantly. Then you could drop it or furl it again before showing the main. This does require some room to run downwind; a prudent sailor will always leave room between their boat and a lee shore if possible.