Can Libertarian anarchisn work?
Posted by UniversalAssembler@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 27 comments
[removed]
Posted by UniversalAssembler@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 27 comments
[removed]
lunaoreomiel@reddit
You ever been to a farmers market ? Or a warehouse rave? Or a pickup soccer/basketball game? Ya those are self organized. You have been propagandized to think anarchy is violence. Ireland existed thousands of years in an anarchist society.
LanceLynxx@reddit
All of those scenarios are not anarchy, on the contrary, there is very much a hierarchy.
lunaoreomiel@reddit
Farmers market is local producers gathering in a central nexus of the population, popping up their own stands and selling directly to the public. Zero hierarchy, its the same as a garage sale. The hierarchy only exists when thugs threaten people there that they need permission from a central authority. The market exists before and without said permits.
A rave needing hiearchy? Anyone can start a party. Party in my room right now brother, no hierarchy.
You just cant imagine freedom. You are an authoritarian.
LanceLynxx@reddit
Is there really no hierarchy? Who owns the where land are they propping up the market at? Or the rave? Because things must happen somewhere, where someone owns that property, and thus has the final say on permissions of use.
Brother I am a libertarian but I am also not in la-la land. Anarcho capitalism is as feasible as communism. Which is to say, it isn't. If it was, we wouldn't need police, courts, or armies to guarantee the social contract/NAP.
lunaoreomiel@reddit
Land ownership is either communally enforced (ie non hierarchical) or its enforced via a central authority (hierarchical). Either model is possible. The market can exist under either and it precedes any argument of property rights. If there is unused land, you use it, titles and deeds are constructs that are forced on land use. Land does not necessarily have to be owned by anyone for a market to exist there.
If you presume that all land needs ownership, and thus permission, then its by choice. Reality doesnt require it. You exist therefore you are, you stand on earth therefore you exist on it. Ownership is a social construct.
Hierarchy is not inevitable.
italktobotz@reddit
All the situations you describe are limmited circumstances where people participating in those systems already have their needs met and then choose to do something. Individuals still must aquire scarce resources and when the options are secure scarce resources or die, things become less civilized. I believe government has far exceeded its proper boundries but i recognize its benefit over anarchy. As others have stated if we went back to pure anarchy governments would form again spontaneously.
lunaoreomiel@reddit
There is nothing limited about a farmers market or garage sale, its the very foundation of economies and societies. Direct local producer to pocal consumers. Its 101 society. It exists without anyone directing it. Pop up a hotdog stand anywhere there is space and foot traffic, if its successful and no one violently evicte it, within a few months you will havea whole market of local producers gathering there emergently as it's been done since we discovered fire. As it grows so does competition qmd cooperation.
SlippinYimmyMcGill@reddit
Can it? Yes. Will it? Not with the low trustworthiness of so many in society.
Cynomus@reddit
No it would not work, for many reasons, but the primary reason is that there will always be bigger, more powerful nations, just waiting to take over. Even if one nation could survive internally without a centralized government, it would collapse to external predators eventually, and become part of someone else's big government, probably not of the amiable type.
UniversalAssembler@reddit (OP)
Wow I see what you mean.
Some years ago I read about a group of libertarians who wanted to get a bunch of people to pool their money and buy a fleet of cruise ships, join them together, and create a Floating Libertarian Nation independent of all Earth governments. The founders said noone would have to pay tax and they could use casino tourism and aqua culture to earn income.
Critics said governments would ban them from coming ashore, pirates would flock to attack them, they would have disease outbreaks.
A_Vinegar_Taster@reddit
The main problem with collectivism is that it relies on a version or humanity that does not exist.
The same is true of a totally stateless society. At some point, the worst, most destructive behaviors become a problem and there is no authority that can be used to fix it. Like Communism, Anarchy relies on a version of humanity that does not exist. It saddens me, but that is the reality.
Cynomus@reddit
Exactly, nearly any form of government could work in a perfect world, until you introduce human behavior.
LanceLynxx@reddit
Correct answer
Franzassisi@reddit
Who has a monopoly of force over you in every day life when you deal with friends, business partners, services and sellers of products you want? Why is that not ending in chaos? Is it because you can call the police or because both sides have a vested interest in cooperating?
No-Research-9761@reddit
We can't simply go back to an idealized parochial past. The historical level of material abundance rely on global systems of trade. Governments and rule of law allow people, businesses, nations to contract and know that their contracts are likely to be enforced. We rely on a food system, electrical system, other utilities, medical system, etc that rely on specialization that you cannot achieve at a local tribal level of a few hundred people. The systems that we have are imperfect, but if you were to strip them away, what happens to the millions who can no longer feed themselves? Tribalism worked in a past when world population was lower. It cannot support 8 billion people.
UniversalAssembler@reddit (OP)
I see what you mean. So people have become dependent on national and global systems except for a few like hard core off grid bush crafters, feral hillbillies, and Mongolian herders and tribals?
drebelx@reddit
Not if it is a natural transition to push aside NAP violations (murder, theft, assault, fraud, enslavement, etc.).
This is not anarchism.
Anarchic laws are established at the agreement level between the parties with clauses to uphold the NAP.
Not in the form he describes.
Nahvi@reddit
He’s just talking about going back to tribalism.
Nations formed for a reason. Even if you could somehow force everyone back to a tribal state then nations would form again.
mwseebeck@reddit
Nations are political tribes.
mwseebeck@reddit
Don't threaten me with a good time!
LanceLynxx@reddit
Any type of anarchism will never work.
Live_Taste_7796@reddit
Yes. These are quasi ancap (enough to show proof of concept)
Medieval Iceland
Market-based chieftainships and private courts930–1262 AD
Gaelic Ireland Professional private jurists (brehons)c. 650–1600 AD
American West Voluntary land clubs and mining camps18th–19th Century
Cospaia Intentional statelessness and free trade1440–1826
coffeebadger21@reddit
Temporarily. Without the police and military doing their bidding, all the looters and moochers will resort to petty ransom attacks. Just use private sector security forces to lock them up and beat them until they're out of commission.
If anyone wants to extract welfare payments by force, that's extortion. It should receive zero tolerance from civilized society. Voluntary, paid militias are enough to deal with the problem of violence. Don't legitimize the extortionists by enshrining their backwards code of ethics into law.
Notworld@reddit
Probably not.
t0rnAsundr@reddit
Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. Even the wild west wasn't that crazy. If it couldn't work, we never would have made it to this point. We would have died out already.
Top_Independent_3548@reddit
Isn't that how humans used to live?
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