why is it that self defence protections/legislation in the UK so limited?

Posted by lilmilkymans@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 19 comments

in the UK, self defence is very limited: only items to hand can be used, items such as pepper spray etc are not legal etc.

im just wondering why? as a woman i would feel much safer carrying a spray at night in case of anything happening. i completely understand not carrying knives/guns etc, but a spray…

also if you are attacked the reasonable force seems to be a lot more limited than other countries. lowkey it seems a bit like if ur attacked, deal with it x

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Lynvor@reddit

Because it would be open to miss use even by people who would claim to use it for self defence. E.g. mistaking a runner as a potential attacker who is just running past you or it being used innappropriatley under the influence of alcohol on a night out.

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fourlegsfaster@reddit

Self defence is not limited. Weapons are limited. an attacker can use a spray. You are using an NRA argument. You may be an NRA bot.

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seriously_this@reddit

Citronella is legal and pretty nasty.

The argument shouldn't be about protection, it should be about why we live in a society where we need such a discussion.

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PetersMapProject@reddit

If you carry literally any item and intend to use it as a weapon, it's an offensive weapon.

You could be carrying a candlestick, bag of chilli powder or a chair. If you are carrying it because you intend to use it as a weapon, it is illegal, even though the item itself is not otherwise banned.

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seriously_this@reddit

I have a member of my family who is in the police and we have discussed these things including the carrying of a small SAK for work in my pocket. My dog spray is kept in my bag, out of easy reach and is literally a last resort to deter an animal attack.

I got the heads up from UK police forums because a belt of citronella spray at an attacking animal is not a firearm and requires less paperwork than using PAVA.

Using a legal deterrent against a human attacker in unusual circumstances would surely be regarded as reasonable force?

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jonewer@reddit

We don't. Fear of crime has become completely detached from reality

Violent crime is down over 80% since the early nineties

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Orange_Codex@reddit

A society without the threat of violence either cannot be achieved, or can only be achieved with intense surveillance and curtailment.

It's far easier to let people defend themselves if they come under attack than it is to police everyone, everywhere, at all times, with unfailing attention.

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lilmilkymans@reddit (OP)

even with intense surveillance and curtailment, the violence unfortunately still exists: it would be almost impossible to uphold such intense surveillance/curtailment be upheld without a threat.

however, this does not mean im all for a self-defending every-man-for-himself society — i think there is a reasonable balance!

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Orange_Codex@reddit

it would be almost impossible to uphold such intense surveillance/curtailment without a threat

Leafy suburban Reddit is not the place for this sort of nuance. Common opinion around here is that government = omnibenevolent and personal responsibility is the devil.

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lilmilkymans@reddit (OP)

in all honestly i am born and raised in a very privileged area/family and sometimes feel frustrated — although everyone is completely entitled to their own viewpoints and opinions — by the naivety (or blissful ignorance) of people.

i do not support the idea of a dog-eat-dog, law of the jungle society, but where there is imperfections in society, i believe people have a duty to act to preserve themselves and those around them.

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Orange_Codex@reddit

I'm with you: the legal ambiguity around self-defence is dumb, especially now jury trials are being abolished, and "why do we live in a society where people attack each other in the first place!?" isn't an adult response - the same way "why do we live in a society where people fall ill?!" isn't an adult response to questions of NHS funding.

Sadly, that's Reddit. The chief clientele on here (especially for larger subs) is opinionated, idealistic shut-ins who carefully curate luxury beliefs as a substitute for ethical conduct in the real world, which many of them don't engage with. In another sub, some absolute dingbat is trying to doxx my 'alt account' because I criticised the tax office. I believe the kids call it 'weak aura.'

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lilmilkymans@reddit (OP)

completely agree, but unfortunately it is what it is… i was just discussing it with a friend who moved here for uni (we both study law) and it kinda made me think!

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Ok_Word9021@reddit

Do you want your attackers to have legal access to weapons also?

And the self defense guidelines are pretty reasonable imo

You do what you need to do and no more

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lilmilkymans@reddit (OP)

i thought about this — it does create a basis for an ‘arms race’, but i think the reassurance of having something to protect yourself is also important. it’s a difficult balance imo!

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QuailTechnical5143@reddit

It’s not limited, it’s specific. You may only use the required force in order to defend yourself or others. You may not attack someone in retreat, chase them or issue any lunatics retribution. ‘Reasonable force’ would primarily be for a jury to decide in most cases and would be also based on your honestly held belief at that time.

If you want spray carry some wasp repellant. Usually comes with a tube to squirt it over distance and if you get it in the face or the eyes….it’s more potent than most pepper sprays.

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lilmilkymans@reddit (OP)

multi-purpose! (i hate wasps and i also hate attackers)

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Orange_Codex@reddit

The same reason that self-defence has been phased out almost everywhere: the state seeks a monopoly on violence.

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PetersMapProject@reddit

I understand why carrying pepper spray feels attractive.

Unfortunately, if you can carry it, so can your would-be attacker. They can claim it's for self defence right up to the second they attack you.

Then you get into something of an arms race. You've both got pepper spray, so now you're looking for the next weapon up....