Does This sub Underestimate AWD?
Posted by Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 744 comments
I've noticed in this sub that whenever the subject of AWD comes up there's a sea of basically the same comments. They pretty always focus on snow, that all that's needed is snow tires, and that AWD isn't needed.
I think this while in a sense true, misses much of the point. Yes snow is a thing, yes tires are very important, and yes, the fast majority can get by without AWD. What it misses though is that AWD makes everything better and is useful in far more conditions than snow.
Even on dry pavement, the majority of modern non-AWD vehicles have enough power to spin the tires. On just wet roads AWD adds a significant level of stability and capability to a lot of situations. And we aren't always on pavement, we all at times drive on gravel, dirt, etc.
The ability to reliably accelerate and be sure footed in all conditions is a huge factor that I think many underestimate.
Fwd_fanatic@reddit
I live in Oregon, where AWD Subarus are a plenty, and we rarely get snow. Most average drivers around here tend to go “I have good traction when I step on the gas so I can drive normally in the snow.” They don’t leave gaps for extended braking, and don’t account for sliding. They’re easily the car I see in the ditches the most in snow around here. Because they go “AWD doesn’t need snow tires”
We all have 4 wheel brakes and in bad conditions AWD doesn’t make you stop faster. Most drivers won’t try to power out of a slide and most AWD cars are prone to understeer rather than oversteer.
AWD can give a false sense of confidence in bad conditions to drivers who aren’t used to losing traction.
Most folks driving on gravel or dirt aren’t going too fast anyway, so it kinda negates the issue. Unless you’re a rally driver, most folks aren’t going fast enough on those surfaces to make AWD a huge difference.
I’m not against AWD, it’s great, but it’s not gonna stop you from making poor choices on the road because you’re sure footed on the gas, as the gas is only half the driving.
chillaxtion@reddit
An AWD car has the same braking potential as a front driver. It usually means that you’re just going faster when you crash in all wheel drive.
ybsmart@reddit
You should research that before speaking so confidently. Wieght is the enemy of braking. Drive shafts and differentials have weight, compared to not having them. Laws of physics tells me you're wrong, let alone searching for actual tests to prove it would be like researching if sunshine is warm.
chillaxtion@reddit
So you're saying AWD brakes worse? Are you trying to prove my point more?
ybsmart@reddit
I'm saying they brake worse, replying to your comment that they are the same as FWD. I guess if you are switching your point, then yes we're both on the same side now.
chillaxtion@reddit
I don’t think there’s a massive difference in braking between the two. It’s just that 4WD encourages greater speed. Speed is the thing that adds a great deal of energy to the vehicle.
ybsmart@reddit
Massive is relative... but measurable is the point. And I don't buy your point. Let's take your random 18 year old. Let him joyride a Corvette, and then some awd Cadillac with the same engine. You think hes going to reach a higher top speed in the awd, maybe, now let's compare the braking distance of those two models.... I've never checked, but if the Caddy is less I'll ban myself from this sub lol.
chillaxtion@reddit
The Toyota Rav 4 is offered both front and AWD. That’s the comparison. Identical model different drivetrains. In sketchy situations the AWD car seems safer so the driver gos faster.
The NTSB studies this and it’s true. AWD cars are involved in more severe accidents.
otterland@reddit
LMAO, this really sums it up very simply. AWD helps you crash more dramatically.
I live in the mid south but used to drive our 2007 Prius to see the ex's folks in central Michigan. Once we hit the serious snow line we'd play count the ditch cars till we got to our small town outside of Lansing (a low key cool as lil city). A majority of the ditch cars were 4WD trucky stuff, SUVs, and AWD. A good portion were of course any random car. The cars doing it right were always big ass 90s RWD American sedans with snows just taking it easy. Would a Crosstrek be better getting up a steel driveway, of course. But a Panther platform with snows got you most places at a reasonable pace in comfort and safety.
That70sShop@reddit
Priuses are extremely front loaded over the drive tires.
otterland@reddit
48/42. They drive great in packed snow if you're just driving like a sane adult. She had me drive when we were up there because she claimed it was scary in snow. I'm sure it would over steer if you drove it like a jackass but even with the Michelin Energy Saver AS it was fine on the grippy packed snow.
chillaxtion@reddit
Years caging had a great VT ski winter. Skied every week twice. Every car in a ditch, and there were so many, was 4/AWD.
I’m also super biased because I was passed by an SUV flying by in heavy snow. It completely totaled a car and left the driver unconscious and slumped over the wheel and it sped off leaving me to get help. That overconfidence came from AWD. It can kill.
gravelpi@reddit
I strongly suspect a lot of people here don't drive where there is snow and hills. Sure, on relatively flat stuff snow tires are good. When working up a hill, AWD and snow tires make all the difference.
chillaxtion@reddit
I live in Western Massachusetts. We have hills aplenty. That said, most major roads and numbered route are property graded.
In the last 20 years the only place we had a problem was a driveway at work.
This is New England, with as much ice and sleet as snow. Maybe people live in some hellscape I don’t understand where the roads don’t get plowed and people are committing between hollers over roads laid out without the benefit of engineers.
People spend a lot of time preparing for threats that are vanishing rare and ignoring obvious risks.
gravelpi@reddit
I'm not saying impossible, just a ton easier with AWD. Over here in the Finger Lakes, the trip to school has a few places with 15%+ grades.
Plus, I like the way RWD/AWD cars feel, lol.
chillaxtion@reddit
I see AWD as useful in two ways.
If your climbing an endless low traction hill and have to stop you can slide backwards. It happened to me in the Rockies.
You can go faster than your brakes should allow if you’re a rally driver on a closed course but it’s not an advantage.
AWD writes checks that can’t be cashed most of the time
loweexclamationpoint@reddit
And AWD drive cars are heavier so they do max impact at a given speed.
chillaxtion@reddit
My best man was put in a coma by an idiot in a 4WD truck. Years ago but he was in a coma for weeks.
TheOGRedline@reddit
There ARE situations, if you know what you’re doing, where true 4wd systems do stop better in slippery conditions. Doesn’t matter if you just stand on the brake pedal and pray.
Robins-dad@reddit
Not AWD with all seasons vs FWD with winters.
angrycanadianguy@reddit
They probably meant with the same tires.
angrycanadianguy@reddit
Absolute best case scenario, if you manage to react and have space to manoeuvre around, AWD will help keep you from sliding if you hit the gas while in a hard turn. Otherwise, it's likely just adding more mass to slow down, extending your braking distance and reducing manoeuvrability (probably only by a negligible amount, but still).
That70sShop@reddit
Tire shops always want to put the good tires on the rear, arguing that overseer is more dangerous. Overseer, I have options. Understeer, you just ho where it takes you.
No-Candidate-2380@reddit
"they do this, they say that..." did you see what the post was about? what does your stories about random people have to do with advantages and disadvantages of awd?
Zestyclose_Paint3922@reddit
I’m trying to figure out if awd could help me on very uneven gravel roads with big rocks or potholes (I don’t live in the us). Do you think it might be useful?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Of course it can.
Zestyclose_Paint3922@reddit
How. I think the main factor here is ground clearance. EV AWD can really be relevant there?
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Let's say you get 1 tire stuck in a muddy pothole with a normal fwd sedan. Now you're stuck. That one tire will spin, and the other one will get no power at all. That's how an open-diff FWD drivetrain works. In this situation, with almost any AWD system out there, you could get out.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
An AWD is more likely to keep going even if a tire is in the air.
glacierfresh2death@reddit
It wouldn’t hurt, but tires and suspension make a bigger difference when you’re on a bumpy road. I drive on crappy dirt roads all the time (forest service roads, Pacific Northwest) and very very rarely need to switch on 4wd
Fwd_fanatic@reddit
If you’re getting stuck or regularly losing traction yes. But you still have the same number of stopping wheels so keep that in mind.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Do you actually stop and check whether those subarus in the ditch have snow tires installed or not?
ukemike1@reddit
AWD gives you enough traction in slippery conditions for you to overwhelm your ability to turn or brake.
Poopy-Drew@reddit
With front wheel drive you don’t even need snow tires
kevin_kil@reddit
Awd isn’t needed if you know how to drive! I purposefully bought 2wd Hyundai!
I have had 4x4 2x6 awd but I was living near borrows Alaska more than 2 wd was a hazard for inexperienced drivers
Dry road, wet roads, snow covered, ice the AWD is not needed
Ohhh I especially like those buffoons who take AWD on the beach a total comedy in driving
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Your comment contradicts itself.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
this is such an egregious straw man argument. no one has ever said that awd isn't useful because snow tires are more important
cookie-ninja@reddit
A bit aggressive there my friend, but yes, the general consensus is the AWD is useful in lots of situations but realistically in winter snow/ice conditions just aren't as useful as winter tires.
This is for the basic driver who just wants to not die. Not drag racing or taking corners with 4 wheel torque vectoring, or powering out of a slide with AWD.
elementarydeardata@reddit
Also, this is an enthusiast subreddit. Outside of enthusiast communities, people insist on AWD, run balding all seasons in the winter, and drive like the weather ain't no thing and expect the AWD will save them from the ditch.
This view is far more prevalent IRL than any comments on this subreddit.
_no_usernames_avail@reddit
Would that I had but more than one upvotes to give.
My Honda with dedicated snow tires is more surefooted in the snow than my Subaru with good Michelin all seasons ever was
But the AWD Subaru was nice for powering out of a slide
Prestigious_Tiger_26@reddit
Sure. Now put snow tires on your Subaru and make a comparison.
Rogers_Razor@reddit
That's it right there. The comments are always some variation of "A FWD with snow tires beats an AWD with all seasons."
Well, yeah obviously. But you can also put snow tires on an AWD.
Goivacon2@reddit
I think it’s just that a lot of people seem to have this idea in their head of “I live in a snowy area I need AWD or a 4wd truck”. I live in Canada and daily drive a 2wd ranger and it’s never once been bad in the winter, I’ve got some nice studded winter tires and drive with a brain and it’s fine
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Are you going to claim that not once have you needed to maintain momentum to make it up a hill or past an obstacle?
Goivacon2@reddit
I have coming out of my driveway when it becomes a sheet of ice and it’s a little hilly towards the end but outside of that no. On the road it’s always been fine even before the roads get plowed, you’re not getting anywhere in a hurry but it’s drivable
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
What you've just admitted is that it'd be safer for both yourself and others if you had AWD/4WD.
Goivacon2@reddit
Sure it would definitely be a better experience but it’s more than drivable if you don’t try to make tiny gaps when making left hand turns. A 4WD ranger sure as hell doesn’t stop or turn any better than my 2WD
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
It certainly can.
Goivacon2@reddit
Explain how 4WD is gonna help it stop and turn better
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
When stopping 4WD is basically the ideal ABS system in slick conditions. Locking the front and rear together means neither can lock without both locking, and sometimes both locking is what you want, ABS is too cautious in snow.
When turning applying power to the front can use the front drive to pull the front around much like a FWD car.
ICantDecideIt@reddit
You’re really gonna have to explain this one to me. How is 4wd braking the ideal ABS? I agree ABS at least as of 10 years ago was less than ideal on snow, but that’s a braking system not a drive system. I’m all here for a TRAINED driver can stop on snow faster with ABS off but drive layout has nothing to do with it.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarguys/comments/1t2hf2b/comment/ojscetk/
ICantDecideIt@reddit
I think you’re confused on what “lock up” means. They’re talking about locking up the brakes. Which has nothing to do with drive wheels.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Do you not understand how 4WD works?
ICantDecideIt@reddit
Who’s system would you like to discuss? They all engage slightly differently.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
AWD all engage a little differently, 4WD are all pretty much the same.
ICantDecideIt@reddit
I’m a bit confused, your post is about AWD cars and if it’s necessary. Then you reference team O’Neil rally vids (they are using awd cars) why switch to a traditional locking 4 wheel drive system to try to prove your point? I’ll still stand by the fact that when they are talking about locking up… they are talking about ABS and not AWD/4wd
Here’s the vid I think you’re referring
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yUw5GQazmwU&ra=m
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
OK let's go back to the beginning, you replied to a reply I made replying to Goivacon2. Where they were talking about a 4WD Ranger. A traditional 4WD pickup, with an old school 2/4WD transfer case. One that when in 4WD mode locks the front and rear driveshafts together going the same speed.
So this string of replies has always been about 4WD not AWD. Specifically it's about how 4WD behaves in snow.
My first reply to you in this string was a link to my reply to him, as he had asked a very similar question already and I saw no reason to repeat myself.
The Team O'Neil vids use a very wide variety of of vehicles, not just AWD cars, and really not many are AWD cars. They use a bunch of old school 4WD, FWD, RWD, with ABS, without ABS. And a bunch of vids comparing how well they stop on snow and gravel.
Who is "they" in this reply?
That vid is a good one, it does a good job showing that on loose surfaces lockup of the tires stops better than ABS(Anti-LOCK Braking System). There's also vids like that in snow showing similar results, and vids like that showing 4WD vs ABS in snow. Here's a good vid to Wyatt explaining why.
Some of this ability can work with AWD as well, but it depends a lot on the details of the AWD and ABS/ESC system in the specific car. For most it will not.
Goivacon2@reddit
When exactly is both locking a good thing? Also how many vehicles on the road will lock all 4 wheels together? Very few cars have a locking front differential and nobody drives on the road with that on.
Yes it can help pull the front around in a slide but if you’re just turning it ain’t gonna do shit.
I’m not denying that 4wd is useful because it 100% is I’m just saying that you absolutely do not need it to get around in the snowy winter
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Snow like gravel is a surface that moves under the tire, for the last bit of stopping it's better to just lock up.
Here this YT channel has a bunch of videos that explain and demonstrate this stuff. If you care to learn spend some time there, if not, not point replying anymore
https://www.youtube.com/@Teamoneilrally
DayGeckoArt@reddit
Having metal on your tires seems crazy to me, a person who has never lived in a place with such inhospitable weather
Goivacon2@reddit
Complete game changer on ice tbh, they’re a little loud on the road but when you need them on the ice they sure are nice to have
Ai-on@reddit
Awd + cross climate 2 is the secret.
3dprintedthingies@reddit
Nah. Reddit loves this trope but my jeep with 4wd hooks like a hanger in the snow and you can easily blow the tires off in a fwd/rwd car that has snow tires in the snow.
Snow tires have a 30% increase in traction against all seasons. You have a 100% increase in traction in 4wd.
In 4wd you have everything locked together so when one wheel slips the other wheels spread out the braking load and you still have better braking.
I'll take AWD/4wd over snow tires if that's the choice. Less to manage and it's always there. Although I also prefer rwd to fwd in the snow and reddit would gladly crucify me at the alter for that preference.
ms_merry@reddit
You put it more succinctly than me. I should have read the other comments first.
thehighmonkeylife@reddit
Off subject:
Im putting a super charger right now on my AWD 2019 Sienna and will be auto crossing it! I’m figuring out the full suspension now.
DustyRacoonDad@reddit
have a build link? I have relevant comments.
cookie-ninja@reddit
That'll be so sick, racing vans.
To_hell_with_it@reddit
The best month of owning my Montana sv6 was after I had it replaced and it became a field toy.
I could absolutely see a town and country edition of 24 hours of lemons
paramalign@reddit
Great answer. The “not wanting to die” part is especially interesting since AWD cars are more likely to be involved in accidents. It’s really a double edged sword.
benedictfuckyourass@reddit
Doesn't suprise me tbh, i see a lot of awd owners who seem to forget that every car already has all wheel braking.
New-Swim-8551@reddit
And front wheel steering
yyc_yardsale@reddit
Well, some do have all wheel steering, but it's neither common, nor particularly relevant.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Source for that silly claim?
paramalign@reddit
https://www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/217027/Four-wheel-drive-vehicle-crash-involvement-risk,-rollover-risk-and-injury-rate-in-comparison-to-other-passenger-vehicles-estimates-based-on-Australian-and-New-Zealand-crash-data-and-on-New-Zealand-motor-vehicle-register-data.pdf
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
So, not only does your first link not support your claim, it actually says the exact *opposite* of your claim.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Reddit is wild like that, it's crazy.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That isn't at all what that study says, would you like to try again to waste my time reading something else?
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Totally false.
OregonMothafaquer@reddit
Eh when you do lose traction with awd because you’re pushing it around corners… it’s very hard to recover
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Not true at all, I find it much much easier.
OregonMothafaquer@reddit
Higher horsepower helps
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
True
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
That's the general consensus among informed people. Unfortunately, the general consensus among commenters is "awd is useless snow tires are all you need", stated without any context as to whether the intended use case in canada in the winter or the surface of Venus.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Just a little.
WhyNWhenYouCanNPlus1@reddit
in real snow conditions, AWD with snow tires >>>> FWD with snow tires
not even comparable. people that think snow tires fix everything just haven't experienced real snowy conditions.
where I am, AWD is a major improvement. plus everyone needs winter tires anyway since it's the law
Interesting_Debate57@reddit
Okay.
So I've been looking at EV's recently. I already bought one, so it's too late to affect my choice.
Regardless of the above, there are lots of different kinds of drivetrains among pure EVs.
Imagine a car company that makes many or most of its most-favored gas or hybrid models as 4wd of some kind or another.
Of course that culture is going to carry over to a pure EV.
Fast forward to where you own such a car: the handling is ridiculously better with 4wd of any kind plus an electric-driven drivetrain. So yeah, if you put snow tires on it, it'll be even a billion times better in the snow. No argument.
However, I've had snow tires on a 2wd when sliding across a federal highway over ice and slush. Would 4wd have helped? Honestly I'd love to run that experiment.
One_Evil_Monkey@reddit
Sounds like a lack of actual driving ability and expecting your vehicles to save your dumbasses.
thrwaway75132@reddit
I have a RWD Tesla and the traction control on it is really good since it has direct control of the e motor and isn’t trying to cut the throttle and deal with all the rotating mass of an ice. Ground clearance is shit, but the traction control is great.
ms_merry@reddit
I’ve been driving in Illinois and back and forth to and in Colorado since the 1970’s. My parents did from the 1940’s to the 20-teens. Rear wheel drive until about 1980. Then FWD. Lots of blizzards and storms. Flat and mountainous roads. None of us or my siblings friends cousins or neighbors have been stuck in the snow or run off the road. I do know of several people killed on motorcycles. When I drive I-25 from Denver to Colorado Springs the only time I see a vehicle in a ditch it’s a big ass truck or SUV no doubt with 4W or AWD. A friend observed that it’s idiots who think they’re invincible bc they have AWD and drive like the idiots they are – cancelling out any unnecessary advantage. We used to switch tires in winter but since the 80’s have used all weather tires. How have we all managed. A couple of the women in my family are total airheads, nervous Nellie’s, or not great drivers who scrape their tires etc. I speed too much and drive light little cars like an MR2 and a VW Golf. My mom drove a big ass FWD Buick up to the end. It’s marketing and they’ve got you. As my dad would say just more money. More to fix. Unnecessary. Case closed. ;)
3012487@reddit
A bit aggressive??? Are you kidding me?
thrwaway75132@reddit
I’d rather have good AWD on 3PMSF (passport / pilot) than RWD on snows. FWD on snows is really good through.
Wake95@reddit
I had someone on Reddit argue that if I needed AWD for traction that I wasn't driving properly. I still get annoyed by that years later.
that_one_guy133@reddit
Yep, I see that all the time on Facebook and here. I'm a fan of AWD in winter because I hate struggling to get going in an FWD car. That's really it, tbh. I drive AWD the same as any car in winter, giving extra time to stop, taking turns slowly, all the normal safe winter driving stuff.
DustyRacoonDad@reddit
AWD makes it easier.. but for anything reasonable you dont NEED it.
If you do need it, doesnt mean you're driving wrong. It just means you're not good enough to do it with RWD only.
Wake95@reddit
My situation was that my wife and I had the exact same car, except mine was all wheel drive and hers was rear wheel drive. I would drive her car once a year, and completely forget that it had rear wheel drive until I pulled out in front of a bus after driving through somebody's sprinkler puddle. My argument was that all-wheel drive is inherently safer than rear wheel drive, but people were arguing against that.
DustyRacoonDad@reddit
You... just said you were a bad driver and are unaware of it.
Wake95@reddit
Jumping into a car that looks exactly like yours but has half the traction is an unreasonable situation, as you say.
DustyRacoonDad@reddit
no, losing traction unexpectedly because of a sprinkler is unreasonable.
Depending on that AWD as "magic traction" is literally the bad driving we're talking about.
Like I said, you are unaware you are a bad driver and your AWD is being a bandaid for it, covering up the issues so you don't realize how dangerous your actions actually are.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I'm seeing arguments like that in this post.
DJrm84@reddit
Did you learn to drive properly tho, or are you still stuck on AWD?
SignatureAny5576@reddit
I mean I can’t be fucked looking back through every post ever made bit that has been said so many times on this sub
Efficient-Ball4360@reddit
Mostly because those of us that live in the north see far too many buy an AWD or locked diff 4x4 pickup, slap all terrain tires on it and think that means they can speed on snow day and AWD or the 4x4 mode that's not even on will magically help them stop.
liarliarplants4hire@reddit
My dad told me early in my driving lessons that quote four wheel go does not mean four-wheel stock or steer”
Efficient-Ball4360@reddit
Full disclaimer, I live in the north, own a Subaru outback and currently have winter biased all terrain tires on it.
I got sick of swapping tires, I'm a true hypocrite.
liarliarplants4hire@reddit
I’m in the northern south. I find that good rain tires actually does me better most of the time on our passenger cars. For the 4+ weeks we have snow / ice, they do well, providing good judgment. My truck has Grabber ATX’s and gets me anywhere I want to go. I was a hero this year by using my winch to yank a couple of buddies out that were stuck in their parking spots due to 3” of ice.
Background-Job-3629@reddit
Absolutely heroic.
liarliarplants4hire@reddit
To them, on that day, for free… I was. I could save the Vatican from stampeding cattle and my wife would hardly bat an eye of approval.
Wavelightning@reddit
Check out Nokian Outpost APT. Lighter than the Grabbers and do better than Geolandars in rain.
liarliarplants4hire@reddit
I will. Got 90k miles out of the first set and recently replaced them with the Grabbers again. They are heavy, though. They’re good at the majority of things, but maybe not the greatest.
Jjmills101@reddit
Tbh if you don’t drive long distances and aren’t in a place where the snow sticks around on the roadway for months at a time you can get by on all seasons no problem. Just know your stopping distances and avoid other cars as best you can.
I wouldn’t recommend everyone do it, but if you have a little experience sliding cars and aren’t overconfident it’s fine
SweatyCrab9729@reddit
"Avoid other cars"...maybe the most important bit of advice when driving in snow.
Keep the wheels rolling while keeping a healthy distance is my approach.
Efficient-Ball4360@reddit
I had a rwd Nissan Pathfinder many years ago that would start slipping if you even thought cold thoughts.
I've gotten stuckish (meaning eventually got out but it wasn't easy) in 2" of snow, couldn't get out of my apts parking spot etc. I would likely never buy a rwd only vehicle ever again. I eventually slapped some artic claws on it cuz it was getting stuck constantly and they at least made it usuable, but still prone to getting stuck if the snow piled up. Now where near as nice as our fwd minivan on all seasons.
Mizar97@reddit
Same here with a WRX. I had a Civic SI before that I would switch the front tires on twice a year with studded ones. Got sick of it.
And boy am I glad I did, Subaru's symmetrical AWD is incredible. Makes my Silverado's auto 4WD look like a joke
JizzyMcKnobGobbler@reddit
Yeah I've gone to all weathers as well. I'm a big advocate for winter tires for everyone else, though.
Danger_Dave4G63@reddit
We've have had 4 wheel stop for a very long time.
You either have disk brakes and brake caliper on all 4 or brake calipers up front and drums on the back (fucking Chevys). Unless you have something like a 60s or earlier vehicle which it may be all drums. Still got 4 wheel brakes. Even if most the braking bias is done up front.
kidskwid@reddit
Yeah but the point is its the tires that make you stop.
Danger_Dave4G63@reddit
No, your ability to control and maintain the vehicle is what is preventing you from sliding around with the wheels locked up. Your wheels shouldn't be locked up. If you go into a ditch in the winter or slid into a car. The ticket you're going to get will literally say failure to control and maintain vehicle.
Snow tires do not make you invincible. They still slip and slide. No snow tire sticks to ice either. Even snow tires with studs still slip and slide around. I know, I have a 2017 Ford Focus RS and it is AWD.
Snow tires help you go from a stop. They help with reducing braking distance compare to all season or high performance tires. If you still slam on the brakes, they are still going to lock up.
kidskwid@reddit
You summed up my point in the end there. Not everyone feels like typing 3 paragraphs. If I slam on my breaks in the winter because someone jumped in front of my car. I am less likely to kill them with winter tires.
That70sShop@reddit
Disc brakes have nothing to do with stopping faster. Their only advantage is brake fade. Surface area is all that matters.
Mr. Newton would like to have a word. How good your brakes are has little to do with stopping in the snow.
No one designs braking bias to the front. That's the natural result of physics and weight transfer.
AWD setups also have more rotating mass.
AdhesiveSeaMonkey@reddit
I was told you use 4wd to get out of trouble not into it.
B5_S4@reddit
This statement is so dumb. Every car has four-wheel stop.
PawPawsLilStinker@reddit
I actually have found the steer part to be wrong, that's pretty much the only thing I use 4 high for.
CompetitiveBox314@reddit
AWD/4wd can definitely be helpful (and fun) with turns when it's slick but it is a higher level driving technique that requires practice and experience.
The non-enthusiast NPC driver that comes on here asking whether they should get an AWD Camry because they get snow once every three years will be locked up on the brakes and slide off the road before they attempt any WRC-style power slides around a corner. The people who are most panicky about slippery conditions, are the least likely to fully take advantage of all the AWD benefits.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
True, but doesn't mean there aren't still AWD benefits.
liarliarplants4hire@reddit
Only works, 2 or 4, if there’s actual traction. Ice GAF… that said, yes, in snow and mud, 4 high is great.
PawPawsLilStinker@reddit
Yes if you live in a frictionless environment you cannot drive. I don't though, I live in the real world.
banananas_are_sick24@reddit
Without good tires it won’t even be four wheel go, just four wheel stay-in-place-and-spin
mvbighead@reddit
Very few blindly assume they can speed on snow because of AWD/4WD. And there are likely just as many that do so in a 2WD vehicle despite conditions. It's not really an AWD thing. It's a bad driver thing.
Efficient-Ball4360@reddit
I disagree, people are much more stupid than you assume.
mvbighead@reddit
People is a generalization of all people. Some people are that stupid. I would wager that most are not.
I know the people you are talking about. They are hardly the majority. The majority of drivers tend to be single file trusting the driver ahead and driving to the conditions. Occasionally someone might be a little too cautious with their driving relative to the conditions, and someone thinks they can do better and attempts to pass. But largely speaking, on a nasty weather day, most drivers just drive behind the driver ahead of them.
AdhesiveSeaMonkey@reddit
This is true, but you can’t fix stupid no matter how much traction control you give them. For any driver worth their license, awd is beneficial no matter what tires you have.
d0ugfirtree@reddit
I’d rather drive a Forester with Michelin Cross Climates through a blizzard than a mustang on Nokian hakkas
The answer depends way too much on too many variables to have a clear cut answer
JrLavish194@reddit
Have driven a stang thru many blizzard on conti winters. As long as the snow is below the bumpers you are good to go.
u3b3rg33k@reddit
i'd say the opposite. also partial to the PIRELLI CINTURATO WEATHERACTIVE. it's good but still not as good a General winter tire.
Jjmills101@reddit
The reverse is also pretty funny when you see a lifted 4x4 with knobby tires or even snow tires and they are going 4 mph
coffeebribesaccepted@reddit
It's the top comment almost every time
bfrogsworstnightmare@reddit
It definitely has been, as well as r/whatcarshouldibuy
dumpin-on-time@reddit
it's often brought up in the context of snow, but awd isn't only useful for snow
yhzcdn@reddit
I say that a lot. If good snow tires and AWD can’t get you going, you should probably be staying home (unless you live super rural and legitimately need a 4WD in winter)
ktappe@reddit
I’ve seen people make that claim.
coldlightofday@reddit
I’m not sure. Purely anecdotal but I do feel like I have read that sentiment on Reddit a lot. Essentially if the question about AWD or not is asked, everyone seem to repeat the mantra that they need to get snow tires and AWD isn’t the important.
NaiveWalrus@reddit
Look through the sub. That statement is parroted every time there is a conversation about awd
dumpin-on-time@reddit
and literally no one has provided an example of that. why? because it's not true
NaiveWalrus@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarguys/s/fcopJftq5v
There you go. I literally searched awd on this sub and this is right under the top comment on the first post.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
lol, that's literally in the context of snow and not the claim. read harder
Odd-Newspaper5054@reddit
I don’t think it’s all that uncommon to hear someone say that a good set of snow tires is more important than AWD. Because in reality if you have AWD and have shitty bald half dry rotted summer performance tires you aren’t going anywhere in the snow.
So OP is half right, AWD is not just about the snow. It’s why a lot of sports car enthusiasts like cars like the Audi RS3 or Golf R at the drag strip. Superior traction when putting down power to pavement. Still needs good application specific tires though.
AdhesiveSeaMonkey@reddit
I’m with op on this. That has absolutely been said in this sub.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
people keep saying that but not providing any evidence. show me one time some said AWS handling is great and someone responded by saying AWD is useless because snow tires are more important in winter
superbotnik@reddit
Completely false. Any time AWD is mentioned, so many people say AWD isn’t needed and snow tires are all that’s needed. Even in the middle of the summer. It’s like a switch. “What do you think of this car?” “Don’t get that! Just get snow tires!” While people should have snow tires, AWD is a separate thing, and idiots always seem to think one replaces the other. And they think they’re “snow” tires and not winter tires. And they think M+S means snow tires.
I think it’s people who don’t have AWD, or whose fave car doesn’t have AWD, spout this nonsense.
AWD has benefits, both in winter and summer, and nobody with a higher than grade 5 education thinks it replaces winter tires.
Jjmills101@reddit
Yeah the general argument is don’t pay a bunch of extra money for awd because you think you NEED it because of snow, not that it is never useful
seaofboobs9434@reddit
Yeah ive personally driven with summer tires in snowy conditions with awd and had no issues 11.5 inches wide tires so it really never looses traction
Hersbird@reddit
Oh BS. Reddit has 100s of threads with 100s of comments on each about how AWD is a "waste" "unnecessary" "not as good" etc.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
Show me an AWD discussion that is not about snow where a commenter injects that AWD is a waste or unnecessary because snow tires are more important in snow
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Right here
Lawineer@reddit
❌not useful because show tires are more important ✅useful but snow tires are more important
dumpin-on-time@reddit
understandably confusing. here are a could ways to read or rephrase it to convey my intent:
Lawineer@reddit
I was agreeing with you.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
ah, my bad. i thought you thought i was contradicting myself and by having it both ways, my mental gymnastics put me in God mode
Special-Reindeer-178@reddit
Ive seen it said, but usually its on posts where someone says they need XXXX suv because it has AWD and it snows where they live, when they clearly cant afford it. Or theyre asking which 4wd car to get because theyre moving somewhere where it snows.
AWD is useful, sure, but you dont NEED it just because it snows sometimes. Especially if you cant afford the AWD/4WD model.
enqlewood@reddit
He was asking a question in the title btw
dumpin-on-time@reddit
that is correct
mxracer888@reddit
Exactly, if anything AWD is just way over prescribed. In most regions for most people AWD is wholly unnecessary for snow, and yet people treat it like it's the literal only option and pay out the ass for something they don't really need
Lyx4088@reddit
So we’re the unicorns. We’re among those not most people. We live at the top of a mountain down an unpaved easement that has a tilt to it with a steep unpaved driveway to get up/down. It’s a rural area and everything (grocery store, work, hardware store, etc all we have is a post office) is 3,000 feet lower in elevation than us. That means in 60-70 mile round trip journey, about 6-8 miles of the trip total usually actually have snow. Most of our driving is not in snow. Because the snow area is up a windy 2 lane road with zero shoulders or turnouts, chains are a non-option. When it is below freezing here, it’s 20+ degrees warmer down the mountain. We end up with all weather triple peaks on AWD since it’s the closest we can get to a true snow tire without absolutely destroying them doing most of our driving in not winter temps or conditions. The all weathers still end up having a much shorter use life than they should with the reality of our driving conditions.
Something else that isn’t mentioned enough, AWD/4x4 vehicles are more likely to have more ground clearance. For people like us, that is essential when we’re getting home and driving through 4-6 inches of snow down the easement and up into the driveway.
I lived in snow areas for nearly a decade with a FWD Jetta TDI sportswagen. It was up here with us for a few years before it was finally retired. It was fine coming up the mountain, even without snow tires or cables/chains. Our easement and driveway were the problem, as well as its ground clearance even with triple peak all weather tires. More than 4 inches of snow and it was getting caught up in the tilt of the easement. Slushy snow with ice under it, and it wasn’t getting up the driveway (unless I was driving it and careening down the easement at questionable speeds to have enough momentum to slide around the curve and up the driveway 😅). The AWD/4x4 we have now have no issue, even in the same tires as the Jetta. We’re definitely not the norm and among the extreme minority where AWD/4x4 become necessary.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
indeed. i don't have to deal with snow, but awd is just more fun to drive. there's literally no objective advantage for me to have it. i just enjoy it. it ruins gas mileage, but it's an ev and electricity is cheap where I live so there's no real disadvantage to it
fredinNH@reddit
They absolutely have. Every single time it comes up, in fact.
DDrewit@reddit
If you believe that you haven’t been paying attention. It’s pervasive on Reddit. “AWD won’t help you stop, just get snow tires” is a common argument.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
the first part is independent of snow, and snow tires are only relevant when talking about snow.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
They've said it in this post already, here's one of them. https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarguys/comments/1t2hf2b/comment/ojnq7wx/
dumpin-on-time@reddit
i don't know if you misunderstood the question, my comment, or the comment you linked, but that comment doesn't contradict mine yet does provide evidence AWD is underestimated
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Then your comment is the straw man, as I never said they did.
dumpin-on-time@reddit
oh, you're OP. lol, please elaborate on this:
who is they, what is it, and while you're at it, tell the class what a straw man is
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
he quoted the reply directly. You've proven yourself unable to read, another addition to the block list.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
If someone brings up AWD, without mentioning snow or winter tires at all, thirty people will reply "you don't need AWD snow tires are more important".
Turkey-Scientist@reddit
I’m not even a member of this sub and I know it’s rife on any car-related subreddit when the subject comes up.
It’s typical internet-community-overcorrection type behavior
espressocycle@reddit
I've said the snow tires part.
AdamN@reddit
Yeah it’s totally Fox News logic.
Interviewee: Good winter tires are more valuable than AWD in snow and on ice and should come first.
Interviewer: So you’re saying AWD is totally useless and a scam …. Commie?
Potential4752@reddit
I see that all the time here. It’s pretty much the top response every time someone asks about AWD.
unbroken_cycle@reddit
Your absolute of “no one” is egregious
allawd@reddit
I've had AWD cars since my first day of driving and I'll say they are fun, but not at all needed if you know how to drive even a little. I can't think of many situations where people crashed from not being able to accelerate fast enough, but have seen a lot of AWD drivers run into light poles and ditches because they got going to fast and could not stop.
Also, in serious snow, I still stay home because I don't have enough ground clearance to get out.
njdriver08648@reddit
Followed a 2018 forester Xt in My 2018 forester xt up a canyon in a blizzard in Utah, I had snow tires, he didn't, he didn't make it up the pass. Was sideways most of the time. If he turned around I doubt he made it back down in one piece. Side note, a Miata with stuffed snows made it no problem, just had to keep where they weren't plowing
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Stuffed snows? You mean studded?
CMG30@reddit
If you feel the way you normally operate a car on public streets requires AWD for stabilization and acceleration... GIVE UP YOUR DRIVERS LICENSE!
If you feel you need AWD because the roads are wet, SLOW DOWN!
If you go off roads frequently and there's mud/snow/ice, sure.
If you want AWD because of improved performance on a track. Go for it.
But if the justification for AWD is because you want to put all the power to the ground in mixed traffic...
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Sure if you change the law so I don't need one.
Fat_Bearded_Tax_Man@reddit
AWD costs me mpg and hp
WeinerBarf420@reddit
My problem with AWD is it's kind of a half measure when you really need 4WD but it can cause you a lot of headaches and money regardless. like with tires the size I use on my 4x4, it would be $500 minimum if I had to replace them four at a time because it was AWD. Most of the time just having a FWD vehicle is enough to avoid slick situations, and in more severe scenarios I just strongly prefer having the 4x4.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
There's a great many conditions where AWD us superior to 4WD.
The tire things is mostly lies told by tire companies.
thatcavdude@reddit
Wrong about the tire thing. It has to be a matched set of tires to stop the vibrations. I literally just rebuilt my entire driveline and had to go through 3 sets of tires to get a matched set. If you don't, you will spend a lot of money on fixing your driveline later on down the road...
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Why, what causes this vibration and what kind of car?
thatcavdude@reddit
For my application the AWD is never disengaged. If you have one smaller tire on one corner it will spin at a different rate and eventually wear out the bearing and cause the LSD to become damaged as well.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You didn't really answer the what kind of car question.
Wear out a bearing, no, that doesn't make any sense.
A clutch type LSD yeah, could put a little more wear on it, but not a torsen type LSD. And I can't think of a modern AWD that "is never disengaged" and uses a clutch type LSD. And even then, it'd only apply to the axle with the LSD.
thatcavdude@reddit
2006 Suburban LTZ AWD ttansfercase is constantly engaged and there aren't any actuators in the diffs. Not selectable to switch it off. No clutch packs or electronic control at all. It's literally always active.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
OK so the planetary differential in the BW 4481 transfer case doesn't use any clutches so should be fine with some variation.
Front diff is open, so it should be fine.
Rear diff should be a G80, no clutches in that and also should be fine as long as the difference isn't too large.
thatcavdude@reddit
It destroyed my Transfercase and I had to warranty it and the diff. I know how much it costs and had to do the work myself. You do you.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You're claiming that a small variation in tire size destroyed both your transfer case and diff? How?
thatcavdude@reddit
It's the imbalance of not having the same rubber compound. The tires have to come from the same batch and mold. Front
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
How would that put any extra stress on the front diff and t-case?
thatcavdude@reddit
I'm not a physicist, all I know is my experience.
WeinerBarf420@reddit
In what way is it a lie? I think most mechanics would tell you the same thing. You're either replacing 4 at a time or shaving down your other tires because driving on uneven tread will genuinely jack up the drivetrain on AWD.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
How is it not a lie?
WeinerBarf420@reddit
From the thing I just said?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Why would an AWD be bothered by a small difference in tire diameter?
derps-a-lot@reddit
Because the system is literally designed to try to keep one wheel from spinning faster than the others?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
No it isn't. If that was true the vehicle couldn't turn.
derps-a-lot@reddit
You're conflating the application of brakes to slow wheel spin (like XDS systems) with torque sensing or vectoring to apply torque to the wheel that is spinning the least.
Adding power to a slower wheel doesn't apply the brake to other wheels.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Then it would be true of all modern vehicles as every modern vehicle has 4 channel ABS and stability control.
ybsmart@reddit
The ability to brake is what saves you from death... extra wieght, let alone the fact its rotating and unsprung wieght does nothing but further your stopping distance. Physics.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This is just not true, brakes an easily stop all that mass, physics.
ybsmart@reddit
further than with less mass. My car was sold weighing 2750, it now weighs 2500 and has better than stock brakes. Yes your brakes WILL stop you, eventually. Mine will stop me far quicker unless you wiegh similar or less. When that deer jumps out in front of me, I will do everything I can to not send it through my windshield. If you are behind me, I hope you had a 2 second gap and were paying attention.
Point is, useless AWD systems that might come into play for you a couple times per year most of the time is just lowering your performance.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Tires stop vehicles, brakes stop tires.
ybsmart@reddit
I'm afraid you missed too much of your grade 10 physics classes to have a discussion with. Good luck in life.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Sure, why be smart.
ybsmart@reddit
Exactly, I'll just dumb it down to try to fit in with all the cool idiots out there. ... how about that local sports team eh?
Good-Department-5677@reddit
1 thing to remember is ground clearance. AWD doesn't help if the wheels can't get to the ground.
I know it sounds crazy, but I took my Wrangler out one snow day to have some fun & I can across an awd car that couldn't move. Not enough weight on the wheels
Lady was waiting on a tow truck...
EnlargedChonk@reddit
to be frank, the general populous overestimates AWD, then some come here and ask about it, so the responses seem to generally underestimate in comparison.
Even you seem to overestimate it, comparing it to the likes of seatbelts or fire extinguishers in your responding comments here. It is nowhere near the same playing field as those life saving safety devices.
to pull a comparison out of my ass I'd equate AWD to "lifesaving" about as much as choosing to wear thicker warmer socks.
AWD is a tool that is useful in some specific circumstances that most people will never truly need, and will only want rarely but can get by without. A more useful comparison than the above I'd liken it to the boon of pickup trucks and SUVs in recent years. Yes a truck is easier to haul a couch or refrigerator, if you do that regularly or tow heavy shit like boats then it's a good idea to own one. Yes SUVs being basically ultra mega cab trucks with no bed can do a lot of the same jobs while seating more people comfortably. Does everyone who has to buy a couch at some point need a truck? no. Does everyone with a few kids need an SUV? no. Does everyone who experiences less than ideal road conditions need the extra traction and control that AWD can *sometimes* afford? no. But marketing materials have convinced a lot of people that don't need or really want to do these things that they need a tool that can do these things.
Selling more features has always been good for the car industry to make more money, so of course they want you to believe that you need what you don't and that by not having it you are putting yourself at more risk. They'd get called out for straight up lies, but half truths? that just gets argued on forums
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
" yes, the vast majority can get by without AWD"
EnlargedChonk@reddit
yeah but it does *not* make everything better, that's why the vast majority can get by. Just because you stated something doesn't mean you understand it. Especially when you say other things that show you quite clearly do not understand your own previous statement. It makes it seem like you included it just so you can dismiss any discussion about it.
Besides the main point of my original comment is that it seems underestimated here because questions are almost always asked from a perspective that overvalues it. i.e. "Do I really need snow tires if I have AWD" <- person thinks AWD is so good it can replace another tool, it cannot, it can complement it but does not replace it. overvalued. the response? "AWD is not that good, if you need snow tires then get snow tires"
Comments bring snow tires up so much because that's what gets asked. I'm even using it here because it's an easy example of how AWD is commonly discussed here in a perspective that makes it seem underestimated. If people were instead commonly asking "how much does AWD help driving up a gravel driveway in the mountains/ across a sandy beach/ through fire roads in the woods that may be a bit muddy" the responses would be more favorable for AWD.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"Even if the OP never mentions snow or tires." - OP
"Do I really need snow tires if I have AWD"
The answer to that is no, but they'd help.
EnlargedChonk@reddit
it was just an easy example, stop being dismissive. Clearly you just want to rant and vent and feel "right" instead of discussing "Does This sub Underestimate AWD?"
and the answer to that is they have overlapping benefits and complement each other but do not replace each other. Whether you need one the other or both is dependent on circumstance.
People like you that overestimate AWD because you don't know how AWD works or what it does and doesn't are why it seems underestimated here. I recommend driving some cars IRL instead of in game before trying to preach what you don't know.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You accuse me of "being dismissive" then say:
I know far more than you do.
EnlargedChonk@reddit
I'm being dismissive back because that's how you are behaving towards me and others. Don't like it? stop doing it. play juvenile games win juvenile prizes.
I've read and re-read it 3x, it was just as ill-informed each time. Also glad you discovered the actual quote block.
I'm sure you do, after all you are 1% commenter right? that means you must know your stuff! You are probably a manager somewhere right? Since you ignore everything after I mention an idea that goes against your own: AWD does not replace snow tires in the snow, and now that I've said that you won't read that 1% commenter just means you yap a lot, nor will you read that you are absolutely dripping with Dunning-Kruger right now.
Lucifer_Jones_@reddit
All I am gonna say is if I drove a Mustang the way I drive my WRX I would have been dead a long time ago.
Just to be clear I am saying it takes a lot more skill with RWD.
Hythe667@reddit
I’d say it really does depend on what kind of AWD system we’re talking about. The newfangled electric motor on the rear axle type (à la Toyota) is really only any use off the line in low grip conditions. Basic Haldex systems aren’t much better. At the other end of the spectrum, sophisticated RWD-biased systems, such as BMW xDrive can be used to shift the car’s balance under lateral load, once you get used to it (very cool sensation) and I’ve found many Subarus to have excellent balance near the limit (as long as the tires aren’t TOO grippy, then they tend to understeer).
Compared to FWD, one of these higher end AWD vehicles will have much more natural feeling near-limit behaviour. Compared to RWD, you just get more traction under high torque scenarios, which you can start to use to claw the nose around (weird description, but you’ll know if you’ve felt it).
Two of the best handling cars I’ve ever driven were AWD - an old Subaru Forester turbo (on fairly mediocre tires it was a delight) and my first gen BMW X5 4.8is. With a shortened final drive ratio, that was a hooligan - daily four wheel drifts around the mini-roundabout at the end of my street. Equally, that thing was terrifying on summer tires, the one day it properly snowed that year.
Doesn’t mean I’m wedded to AWD, and there are huge differences between the different AWD systems out there. A proper rear-biased full-time AWD system does bring something different to the party, though, in fast driving, and not just in bad weather - after all, that’s why they ended up banning it in F1, IMSA, BTCC, etc…
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Absolutely, the kinds of AWD systems does not get talked about nearly enough.
Like Subarus really depend on which one, most of all which transmission. Subarus with an automatic/CVT are pretty much Haldex. Subarus with a manual, something else entirely.
Same is really true for all of them, xDrive, Quattro, etc. these are really just marketing terms. The details on how they work depends a lot on the year, model, options, etc. I think the only significant variation on this is Mercedes, as far as I can tell all 4matic basically work the same, and they label the newer better system 4matic+.
RWD based clutch type systems are great, that's what my daily is(not BMW). That "claw the nose around" sensation when the rear is drifting is awesome.
Raganash123@reddit
To my understanding AWD isnt as big of a benefit in most situations. It helps but Torque is still lazy. AWD doesnt equal 4WD. AWD is an adaptive system to redirects power, but torque is still lazy.
4WD is all four tires getting power equally, and then you can add a diff lock on top of that for even better offload performance.
To sum it up, AWD isnt necessary, and if you dont have 4WD+Diff lock it isnt a major advantage.
That70sShop@reddit
It's for car guys.
Generally speaking, AWD, or even FWD is going to be faster on a course.
That does not make it more fun to drive than RWD.
Car guys like cars that are fun to drive.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
FWD faster than RWD, what are you smoking?
dudSpudson@reddit
I live in an area that gets lots of snow and ice in the winter.
I also live on a hill.
I had a FWD car with snow tires and it would frequently get stuck trying to get up the hill in the snow.
Now I have a car with all season tires and AWD and have not gotten stuck once. The thing is a tank.
Obviously snow tires will help you stop and grip the road better. But AWD will keep you moving in bad conditions
7eregrine@reddit
Same. Steep driveway. FWD and shows I still had to do the "back into the driveway across the street and get a running start" game. First AWD bought mid winter so I didn't get snows. Pulled in first time, every time. Even backing in was easy.
Dzov@reddit
Kind of interesting that real experiences are different from everyone’s assumptions.
EnlargedChonk@reddit
uhh the assumption(fact) is that AWD helps with climbing hills but not much else in the snow. Which is exactly what is described here. The only difference is that the AWD doesn't have snow tires, but if it came with all seasons on it will still handle grades better than FWD w/ snows. When it comes to hills specifically really only summer tires will make the AWD lose.
Like snowy/slippery hills is the actual reason for needing AWD on the road. It's all other aspects that aren't helped much by AWD.
7eregrine@reddit
Exactly this. I have since moved to the suburbs. Flat driveway, roads are cleared quickly.
I do not need AWD anymore.
Dzov@reddit
Heh. I once put summer tires on an Acura Integra and it wouldn’t make it up even the lowest of inclines. They were so incredibly bad.
EnlargedChonk@reddit
The latest WRX comes with very much summer dunlops, they are like treadwear 200 or something and iirc the manufacturer warns against use in temps below 40f. The common description for them is "like hockey pucks" in the snow.
These cars are sold like that even in the dead of winter... They are so comically bad that even a cold fall/spring morning makes them a hazard, so most owners replace them with high performance all seasons for summer and full snow in winter.
EnlargedChonk@reddit
congratulations you are in fact the target audience for an AWD car.
Jolrit@reddit
I think that most of the people commenting have never driven an AWD car up a snow covered hills. They are just talking out of their ass.
I_Have_Unobtainium@reddit
Our driveway is several hundred feet downhill from the road. Nobody has ever made it out of our driveway with fwd + winters. But the cr-v with awd and all seasons will pull anything out without issue. I will be using awd + winters for as long as I live.
blueeyes7@reddit
AWD CR-V with studded tires is wintertime mountain roads perfection.
Anachronism--@reddit
My jeep has all seasons at 4/32 and goes through a foot of unplowed snow in 4wd.
EYAYSLOP@reddit
Because I don't need AWD. So it would be waste.
Phrainkee@reddit
As someone who has given my old 98 Forester with the manual transmission to my sister and upgraded to a selectable 4wd. I'll mention, I no longer deliver pizza but when I was it was with the Subi and maaaaaan that thing could handle so much gd road snow! I always had snow tires and it wouldn't skip a beat even in like a foot of snow
yureku_the_potato@reddit
Sure there are benefits, but you often pay more for an awd car and price is an important factor. Hell I live in the swiss mountains where we get a lot of snow and both I and my partner have fwd lol
ASupportingTea@reddit
My issue is that it makes it easier to go in snow, but harder to stop due to the added weight.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
huh?
ASupportingTea@reddit
AWD systems make a car heavier. A heavier car, generally speaking, does not stop as well as a lighter car.
Therefore the AWD helps it get up to speed, and then hinders it from stopping. So you can both go faster and stop worse, which generally in the hands of the public is not a very safe combination.
TrickyPineapple5863@reddit
Well my ‘22 Pilot is AWD, and 4300#, my 92 civic hatch with a B16 was reasonably quick 15 years ago, when I took it to Firebird. I ran two 15.0xx 1/4s that night. The rest were slightly slower. The pilot will run a 14.8 1/4, and my wife could do it. So, it’s better for that. And after pushing the pilot to find how hard you have to push it for it to not make a corner, I’m fairly certain it could also out corner the civic with stock suspension.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I believe you on the 1/4 mile, but a Pilot out corner a civic, even a '92, doesn't make sense unless the civic is on tires from '92.
Workdawg@reddit
If you're smashing the gas hard enough to spent your tires, you're doing it wrong in 99.99% of cases, period. The fact that you just said, "spin the tires" is proof enough that the tires are the most important factor. AWD helps you accelerate better in VERY limited conditions, but it doesn't help you stop to turn better. If you are out-driving your tires, you are doing it wrong. Period.
New_Breadfruit8692@reddit
It is because AWD adds to initial expense of the vehicle up to as high as $3k, costs you gas mileage of 1-3 MPG, is more complex for maintenance, and requires replacement of all 4 tires at the same time even if a couple/few have several more months left in them. It is overkill in places where it does not snow regularly.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
As high as, could be no difference, all depends.
The tire thing is mostly a lie tire shops tell to sell more tires.
Sea-Claim-6860@reddit
The tire thing is not a lie, some and transfer cases go ballistic over 2mm of tire size difference
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Which specifically and why?
And notice I said "mostly", there may be a few, but I can't think of anything sold as AWD and made in the last 20 years where it's a big deal.
02bluehawk@reddit
Literally every subaru has it stated in their owners manual. Multiple other manufacturers have the same stuff. If the 4 wheels are mechanically linked together and spinning at slightly different speeds due to different tread depth it 100% does and will damage the drive train components.
EnlargedChonk@reddit
what you mean the thing that slips friction material at different wheel speeds will wear prematurely when the wheels go different speeds constantly from different sizes? nah surely that's made up, I can't picture it so it must be a conspiracy to sell more tires. /s
Dzov@reddit
All it has to do is save you and your car one time to be worth it. How likely that is depends on where you drive.
Sketch2029@reddit
This is also the best argument for winter tires, depending on where you drive.
Imaindawilderness@reddit
Your mom understands it
HuckleCatt1@reddit
I have personally noticed that AWD really helps traction on rainy days
_The_Mink_@reddit
I would say the bigger issue is that many people rely on AWD/4x4 because it is more capable. The only time I have ever wanted all four tires spinning is in the mud. The loss of traction in mud is enough that 2 wheel will just spin until you bury it. For all other conditions ones ability to drive is far more important than having more tires spinning.
Even on ice/snow if I spin those tires enough they will "burn" off enough of the ice to get to pavement to get some traction. I live on gravel, tight turns on dirt, 4wheel doesn't help any more than just knowing how to drive on it. Rain, unless there is a lot of standing water (at least enough to visibly see), understanding to not stand on the gas is better than 4wheel.
As someone who has only had rear wheel drive trucks for the majority of my drive time (15 years, in fields/back roads with a load), I have not gotten myself into more than 2 situations where having 4 wheel would have helped, and of those 2 situations I needed a second truck with 4wheel to pull me out anyway. I won't lie and say it wouldn't have made some things easier, but in no way was it ever necessary like a lot of people want to think.
WillieMakeit77@reddit
I think the majority of the AWD systems these days are primarily front driven until one of the wheels starts to slip. Then the power is sent to which wheel needs it. It’ll apply brakes to the spinning wheel and the power will go to a different wheel.
DustyRacoonDad@reddit
Here is the answer:
You dont go faster.
If you would go faster, the factory pulls power on the torque request so you dont break the transmission and axles.
if you tune around that to actually go faster with AWD, you break things.
If you replace all the things needed to have a hard launching AWD setup, you spend a lot of money and are only faster when someone else didnt spend money to launch their RWD car hard.
Simp4Toyotathon@reddit
I have an awd car, but i don’t need an awd car. It just happens to be that the G16E is only in cars with awd, so its not like I had a choice since I really wanted that 3 cylinder goodness
Anachronism--@reddit
Anyone who has driven awd and 2wd back to back in slippery conditions can clearly see the difference is night and day. I have selectable 4wd and go from being hopelessly stuck to easily moving at the push of a lever.
Most of the people in this sub is nuts.
gettin-hot-in-here@reddit
still kind of depends on the details. "rain on paved road" is a different kind of slippery from icy, hard-packed snow on the same road. if the vehicle has 40% of the weight on driven wheels (empty pickup truck) or 60% of the weight on the driven wheels, or 100% of the weight on driven wheels, that definitely makes quite a difference of what it takes to reach the traction limit if traction is actually an issue; if you are driving conservatively on pavement then that pretty much means you're on snow or ice and AWD still doesn't help your traction when you are off the accelerator.
Quick_Delay_8459@reddit
You’re right to a point. Newer AWD system like in x drive and Quattro often have brake based torque vectoring that can still use the torque from engine braking to help maintain traction when off throttle.
There’s also the fact that many vehicles that put power to all four tires also have additional systems in place that can aid in traction. My Lexus has A trac and electronic brake force distribution. Both of those are off road geared safety nets that make noticeable impacts on off throttle traction on snow/wet roads. Those types of systems don’t really exist on 2wd cars because they aren’t designed with offroad traction in mind. I do also have a multi terrain select which can adjust the braking behavior in snow, but that isn’t strictly for 4wd. I had it on my 2wd f150 as well.
keithrc@reddit
There are some nutty opinions in this sub. Good thing they don't make a Miata with AWD, some people might have an aneurysm.
WI762@reddit
Given how many fwd / redvehicles I've helped rescue in the winter with my 4x4 and AWD vehicles, I'd say there's a difference. I used to have a red truck, myself and it did ok, but there are conditions that it was terrible in. My cars were great in the winter, because it was a free day off of work when we got 6+ inches of snow.
I think the argument I've seen here is that it doesn't help you stop faster, which is true. Having livedy whole life in the upper Midwest, you learn to adjust your driving to the conditions and if you don't, no matter what you're driving, you'll be in a wreck. Granted we almost never get straight ice and if we did, I'd probably just stay home.
Dzov@reddit
That first sentence is telling. Everyone says to run snow only tires, but disregard the fact that most people won’t bother.
uninspiredclaptrap@reddit
I haven't been stuck in over 20 years. Yeah, if you're in a lot of slippery situations, it's definitely worth it. But not if you're just on pavement that is wet part of the time
thinkdifferentpad@reddit
Especially in icy uphill situations, add to the mix a yield, a stop sign, or a traffic light, you’ll find yourself in a less than ideal situation very very quickly, when your vehicle is moving laterally, about to hit the curb or another vehicle, regardless how much throttle you apply. It’s one of those situations where if you know you know, even in my RX350, with its front biased AWD system, I can sense when the tail end is about to break loose and fish tail, for that second or two before the computer kicks in to apply power to the rear wheels. Power to two wheels vs power to four wheels, I’m picking the four wheels every chance i get, because why pick an inferior platform when I can choose. Snow, rain, mud, gravel, AWD has the upper hand. I’ve driven fwd and rwd of its days, while yes it’s manageable but why deal with its downfalls when I don’t have to, I especially when the financial hit and cost of ownership and maintenance is minimal when you spread the cost over the life of the vehicle.
chillaxtion@reddit
My icy uphill driving is .0000000001% of my driving. I live in Massachusetts. My wife got stuck in the Berkshires in a freak storm 3 years ago once. She had to take a different route home that day. No big deal.
It’s like guys that carry knives to their office jobs for whatever reasons. It’s more about fantasy role play.
One-Butterscotch4332@reddit
I just carry chains. Needed them once this year because my apartment has a big hill
otterland@reddit
Or the classic handgun in the center console with some badass stickers on the back window that indicate that criminals can obtain a free gun here.
If you're already in a car or truck, you've already got a pretty good tactical that you're sitting in that can perform the classic maneuver of, get the fuck out of here.
New_Breadfruit8692@reddit
In 2000 in Florida I bought a new SS Camaro convertible but shortly after accepted a job in New York City. A friend on a large estate about 50 miles north of Manhattan said I had to accept this offer and said I could live at his estate as long as I wanted to. My stepfather had lived there on and off from his teen years till he died of brain cancer in his early fifties.
So I said yes, and moved north. Well the house had a near half mile of driveway that was on a mountain side, and I swear to god it was uphill in both directions! Then it started snowing in October and did not stop till April.
I commuted into the city on the Metro North but still had to drive to and from the station at Brewster North. The slope up to the house was gentle enough till you got to the property line, but at the start of the driveway I just had to abandon the car because the driveway was too steep for a 5.7 liter LS1 V8 with RWD, it was absolutely not possible to get up that hill with those wide street tires and that much HP without incident, I never got further than about 50 frustrating feet. And, as I found out getting down after it snowed because the ground was clear when I parked in the evening but was like an ice arena in the morning was even less safe.
So most of the winter it had to be parked on a turn out at the base of the driveway and snow plows LOVED abusing it. They saw the Florida plates and went to snow plow driver Nirvana.
Accomplished-Rest-89@reddit
Really enjoyed reading your well written story
Robins-dad@reddit
The tires are still the number one factor in traction. A FWD car with winter tires will have better traction in snowy or icy conditions than AWD with all season tires. The biggest disadvantage of AWD is weight.
Anachronism--@reddit
How can you be so ignorant? AWD with decent all seasons crush 2wd and snow tires in acceleration,
The first minute really tells you everything you need to know about AWD vs 2wd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRYHlb61_9Q
another awd all seasons 2wd snow tires test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7E3GTpgvjs
A test of snow tires with an all season thrown in -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RipM4-ouIWM&t=325s
A straight up Summer/ all-season/ all-weather/ snow tire test (never use a summer tire in the snow!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=421HkK4Nqss
Winter tires vs. All weather vs All season summary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K8ThRGNaoM
Robins-dad@reddit
I didn’t watch the entire video but you are right when talking about straight line acceleration. But for cornering and braking winter tires and FWD are superior. https://www.michelinman.com/auto/auto-tips-and-advice/winter-driving/awd-winter-tire-safety
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Love that channel, he has a sub here in reddit.
atlgeo@reddit
Not all 2wd are created equal, there's a big difference in slippery conditions between front wheel drive and rear; and awd and 4 wheel drive are not the same thing.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
With my car I can switch between AWD and RWD at the push of a button while driving, I can experience that "night and day" any time I want and I almost never choose RWD.
Muttonboat@reddit
Never choose RWD? You can just say you can't drift bro......
Also awd eats up gas, probably part of the thought besides giving you that choice
jules083@reddit
'eats up gas'? The difference is like 2mpg. Roughly, depending on vehicle.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
2 MPG is almost certainly on the high side for an average. In a full time system like many Audi yeah, but it's barely anything in a part time system like the vast majority of modern AWD vehicles.
CapoKakadan@reddit
No, the vast majority of AWD today are not part time. That used to be true up to the mid 2000s or so but isn’t now. My CRV is full time up to 57mph. The 4th gen CRV were part time (slip-n-grip). 5th and above are full time. Subaru as well is full time. I own both and can monitor it both on screen and OBD2.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This is just pedantic terminology nitpicking. Most systems, both 4th and 5th gen CRV and the vast majority of Subaru are slip-n-grip systems. Most claims otherwise are marketing, They pretty much all have to be slip-n-grip systems to meet CAFE requirements.
CapoKakadan@reddit
Well you’re just confidently wrong. 5th and 6th gen CRV went to full time (except above 57mph to save gas). Subaru has been full time for some time but I’m less sure of the generation or year on that one. You can monitor the clutch rate like I said. And as I own both vehicles I can tell you they stay engaged except when decel and on my car when >57.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
There it is right there. The system adjusts a clutch in response to slip or predicted slip, thus slip-n-grip.
The alternative is a 3 differential system like in longitudinal Audi and a few Subaru.
In regard to slip-n-grip systems the biggest variation is if they have an extra axle disconnect to save fuel. No Subaru does, don't think any CRV has either. The only AWD vehicles I know of that have them are RWD based platforms.
NightKnown405@reddit
4WD can kill fuel mileage. AWD is only active when needed and in a lot of systems today doesn't produce fuel mileage concerns.
iamr3d88@reddit
Not all AWD is part time. GR Corolla, most Subarus, I think a lot of Audis also have full time AWD.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Can, my car will drift in AWD, but I don't "drifting" as most people use the term is lame.
The choice is aftermarket.
H0SS_AGAINST@reddit
Specifically in the snow and ice conversation AWD with AS vs FWD with ST...no.
And if course, AWD with ST is GOAT.
Acronyms are fun
DogblackMichigan@reddit
That’s because we are old car guys that have driven many different vehicles with one, the other, or both. Tires are way more important than AWD. It’s not even close.
Prestigious_Tiger_26@reddit
It's not an either/or situation. Throw snow tires on a full time AWD vehicle and it's like a mountain goat. And the argument about it not being able to stop better is false. When going down a steep grade, I can downshift and use engine braking to slow all wheels down very gradually and maintain grip. If you engine brake with a 2WD vehicle, it's easier to break traction.
DogblackMichigan@reddit
I agree with doing both. I don’t agree with engine braking in ice or slippery conditions.
Prestigious_Tiger_26@reddit
Ever been offroading? When going down steep grades, you put it in the crawl gear to allow the wheels to keep spinning and keep traction. If you don't and you pick up too much speed and hit the brakes, your fronts will lock up and you'll go into a slide. Engine braking prevents that whole situation by keeping you at a steady speed.
DogblackMichigan@reddit
Engine braking is used in that circumstance to brake the rear wheels on rear wheel drive. It’s mostly used though on long downhill stretches to keep from overheating the friction brakes.
Are you 18 yet? Do you more than ten minutes experience? Are you driving your parent’s car?
Prestigious_Tiger_26@reddit
Funny I've got over 20+ years experience. Sounds like you get all your driving info from old wives tales. Research it, since you won't take my word for it.
DogblackMichigan@reddit
Oh, I see. You just aren’t good at thinking. Too bad.
Prestigious_Tiger_26@reddit
You're only good at ad hominems and not at providing any good counter arguments. You should've told me you were a man child. Could've saved me some time trying to explain it to an ignoramus.
DogblackMichigan@reddit
I am a retired Detroit car guy. I k ow 1,000 times more than you. Your arrogance prevents you from learning.
Prestigious_Tiger_26@reddit
Stop projecting.
DogblackMichigan@reddit
Stop giving false information and bad advice. You don’t know about cars.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes tires are very important"
mpgomatic@reddit
AWD is wonderful when you need it. The rest of the time, it just drains your wallet.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
The same is true of a great many things, insurance, fire extinguishers, seat belts, etc.
thatcavdude@reddit
Women, boats, horses and planes...never get your money back.
thatcavdude@reddit
I have a 2006 Suburban LTZ that I just rebuilt. It is not a selectable Tcase, real time AWD. I live in the Southeast and I went from an 01 RWD to this. I also basically swapped to an LS2 from an LQ4 and rebuilt the entire driveline. It feels like I have complete control and run the highest speed rated All Season tires I can get. The only way I would go back to RWD is if it was a sports car with a manual transmission.
groshreez@reddit
It's most definitely does not make "everything better." it makes cars heavier in the front, making them more likely to understeering and numb steering feel. It makes cars heavier and more complicated (more expensive, more complex and more things to break). RWD > AWD > FWD.
Jolrit@reddit
BMW Xdrive adds just over 100 pounds to a vehicle. Less than a passenger.
groshreez@reddit
And because of that, it's heavier on turn-in, less eager to rotate, more likely to understeer. Steering feel is more numb. Ride height in XDrive cars is a little higher than non xDrive models, so more body roll. If you prioritize a car that's fun to drive, especially curvy roads, XDrive is not something you'd want.
Jolrit@reddit
It’s evident that you have driven a BMW performance Xdrive. The M3 and M4 Xdrives exist. Fabulous track cars. M240 Xdrives are nothing to sneeze at. In the Car and Driver Lightning Lap competition the M240 finished the lap by just over a second to the Toyota Supra. Same engine,same transmission. One big difference. The Supra weighs 400 pounds less than the M240.
groshreez@reddit
Porsche C4S also exists and is a great track car but I'd always choose a Carerra GTS over a 4S.
Jolrit@reddit
We were talking about Xdrive, correct?
groshreez@reddit
You brought up XDrive specifically. I was talking about RWD > AWD > FWD.
Cold_Specialist_3656@reddit
Most commuter car drivers never accelerate hard enough for AWD to be useful in dry or rain. Even if the car is capable, they don't.
And modern traction control is so good you won't spin out anyways. Just slower acceleration.
So AWD is only useful in places with snow. Half the US doesn't get much snow
seven_spread@reddit
What a lot of people don't realize about AWD on dry pavement is that it's actually not that useful compared to RWD, no matter how hard you accelerate. The reason is weight transfer to the rear axle as you launch it. There's a lot of really powerful RWD cars that are as fast as similarly powered AWD's and there is also a lot of really really powerful drag cars that don't even have an AWD counter part.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
When you say "useful" i think of real world conditions like accelerating on a curved onramp, not doing something as singularly unuseful as drag racing.
seven_spread@reddit
I definitely hear you. I was talking about purely acceleration on dry tarmac. I've owned plenty of AWD's and I can come up with a lot of upsides to them even in summer conditions.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Yeah, I know what you meant but it's definitely a different definition of useful than the guy you were originally responding was using, too. I've owned plenty of AWDs too, enough to know that the real issue with the average driver and AWD should be presented not as AWD vs snow tires, but AWD vs pocketbook--that many drivers don't understand what AWD is actually costing them over time, because the extra maintenance/fuel cost is backloaded.
Jolrit@reddit
My 23 BMW M240 Xdrive gets 35 mpg on the highway.
Jolrit@reddit
I have a 23 BMW M240 Xdrive. It does 0-60 in under 4 seconds. It came with shitty 225 section run flat tires. I have never experienced tire spin in a straight line. The G forces the car creates are addicting and I frequently do full throttle accelerations.
Redbulldildo@reddit
Most cars aren't going to get 0% weight on the front wheels. They aren't that powerful, or using tires that sticky.
Dzov@reddit
It’s like people have opinions while never actually driving what they’re putting down.
_MadSuburbanDad_@reddit
This is silly cope.
seven_spread@reddit
What do you mean? People often talk like AWD offers unreal grip compared to RWD even on dry tarmac. You can check some comparisons but the difference is usually marginal. Also a lot of times the manufacturers pair AWD with automatic with shorter gearing and RWD with a manual and longer gears so when comparing the same model of car to each other its difficult.
_MadSuburbanDad_@reddit
Your idea of what AWD does is dated, to be as fair as I can be. It doesn’t account for the multiple relatively new rear diff setups that genuinely improve handling.
If your idea of performance is launching from a stop, then no, your AWD system isn’t going to be more than marginally better than RWD. In turns, torque vectoring and oversped rear wheels make AWD have as good or better handling than RWD.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
It's not like the R35 is the most dominant no prep drag car or anything.
seven_spread@reddit
I think it would be that even if it was RWD though wouldn't it? It's not popular because it's AWD but because the platform is easily moddable and has high aftermarket support?
Just an example but C8 Corvette (RWD) has ~495hp and does 0-60 in around 2.9s where as R35 has ~565hp and does 0-60 in about 2.9. It depends on the balance of the car, total weight (AWD usually heavier), tires and the weight transfer.
Cold_Specialist_3656@reddit
The Corvette is a bad example cuz it's mid engine.
Mid engine RWD is the dominant platform in "real" racing because enough weight is over the back wheels to get AWD-equivalent traction.
In traditional front engine design AWD accelerate faster.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Put 2000HP in them and it all changes. The Vette can't use it, the R35 can.
seven_spread@reddit
Yeah, no argument there. But still, the difference is usually very minor or negligible if you compare a car which has favorable balance and weight transfer 🤷
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Can't be done on a street vehicle. It'd make it too unstable in every other condition.
seven_spread@reddit
Every single moving object has weight transfer unless you are able to pivot towards the movement on a single axis. Some less, some more.
There are actually RWD street cars that change the damper setup to allow for softer rear suspension like the SRT Demon for more "squat" or also something like 911 turbo S which does it adaptively for better traction.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Weight transfer is limited, it's a function of acceleration which is limited by traction.
This kind of thinking is how funny cars where born, in the 60s they started moving the rear axle forward and lifting the suspension to get better weight transfer.
Even a car like a Demon 170 can't transfer all of it's weight to the rear, not even on a prepped track, and not even close on the street.
Of course a RWD car can out drag race an AWD but that RWD car won't be able to turn a corner at speed or be stable under braking.
seven_spread@reddit
I don't remember what was the start of this discussion anymore. Just saying that all things considered they are pretty similarly matched when the traction is good.
AWD heavier, not as much use for front tires as you'd think since weight transfers to rear as you accelerate (no I'm not saying the front tires are useless).
RWD lighter but usually slightly less grip. Still nothing monumental if the car has good balance and smart traction control coupled with electrically controlled dampers.
02bluehawk@reddit
Sorry dude but the fastest r35s are rear wheel drive. And in no prep racing all of the truely fast guys are all rear wheel drive with 4 links and 6.50 chassis certs. AWD is only better than rear wheel drive on a loose surface.
DFLDrew@reddit
This is why bikes and drag cars pick up the front tires, zero weight on them.
otterland@reddit
I have two fifteen year old cars with traction control. When it snows I'll leave our neighborhood and rest the grip by slowly accelerating and when the TC kicks in I know my limits and stay within them and it never kicks in again. Most times it never kicks in unless I mash the pedal and I only do that if I'm doing donuts at Walmart. 😂
I still get AWD for folks driving outside urban areas in the snow belt but it's not for me. Shame as I'd love a FWD Impreza.
Jolrit@reddit
Try using TC going up a steep,snow covered hill and you won’t move one inch.
otterland@reddit
But I haven't had to do that in my 40 years of driving. You people always use the worst case scenario excuse.
What I do do is carry a first aid kit in my car and a good set of tools and emergency food. If for some reason I drive from the Mid-South to go to a place for a skiing vacation, I'll rent a fucking AWD.
Dzov@reddit
My own driveway is a steep hill. Maybe you live in Florida where neither snow or hills exist, but not all of us do.
otterland@reddit
I live in the mid south where it snows. I don't give a fuck about your driveway. I'm just saying that the vast majority of people buy overly complex all-wheel drive cars don't need them and are creating a future expense and hassle for themselves that has nothing to do with your fucking driveway.
Dzov@reddit
You said “worst case scenario excuse” except it’s an every day obstacle. But carry on with whatever works for you.
Jolrit@reddit
Depends on where you live. I live in Pittsburgh. Lots of steep hills. Lots of snow.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
This is nonsense. Even with a low power economy sedan you can easily spin the tires in dry conditions by simply applying power while turning in a low gear. Take a 300+ hp car, which includes many "commuter cars" in the modern era, and you can spin the wheels going straight simply by flooring it with the traction control disabled. Now add in rain and you're traction limited all the time.
So your point is essentially acceleration isn't useful. Trash take.
Cold_Specialist_3656@reddit
Bro soccer moms aren't tooling around in 300hp cars besides vans that weigh 5000lbs.
This sub is so ridiculous. 300hp in a sedan gets you maybe 10% fastest cars on the road.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
The most common newer sedan where I live is a tesla, which obliterate 300 hp sedans. The toyota camry v6 sedan made 300 hp for the last decade until the strict EPA regs finally got toyota to axe that version this year. I notice you moved the goalposts from "commuter car driver" to soccer mom for some reason. I agree this sub is ridiculous, full of guys who can't figure out if they are talking about a soccer mom or a commuter.
RHS1959@reddit
AWD is also really good on wet roads, especially if your tires aren’t the best.
DFLDrew@reddit
Only if you’re driving like a jackass, especially if you’re falling to properly maintain your vehicle.
RHS1959@reddit
Unless you’re supported by a Formula 1 team we all sometimes drive on tires that are less than perfect. I didn’t say “bald” “worn out” or “unsafe” tires. I said “not the best”.
DFLDrew@reddit
That’s the most pedantic shit I have read in a long time.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
To always have the best would mean having a new set of tires for each season.
RHS1959@reddit
And different ones for rainy days or hot days.
herlzvohg@reddit
Or just drive to the conditions and it wont matter one way or the other
RHS1959@reddit
With AWD I drive to the conditions with more confidence and control.
ChemistryMedium@reddit
I agree. When i am driving my Hyundai Elantra FWD i never break traction.
In my Audi S5 AWD I break traction regularly. Just yesterday in the wet i did a 4 wheel burnout all the way up an on-ramp after doing launch control. I just went stage 1 on it
DickWhittingtonsCat@reddit
The spinning tires thing was weird. I mean you have to go back years to an absolutely abject econobox (which I had) to not have TC.
I have no beef with AWD, but I drive expertly, it’s billiard table flat and snows 30 inches a year. I just haven’t needed it once it 30+ years. If I moved to remote mountains or some rural compound, I’d probably skip past the CRV or Subaru- although I can see how in a hillier area they give an illusion of control.
Straight talk is that it’s everyone else you need to be looking for- on bald tires and not understanding the braking distances changeZ
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
They never make unprotected left turns?
jules083@reddit
Modern traction control is absolutely terrible once snow is involved though. The worst part about my work car is that I can't switch it off. I've had the damn thing stuck a few times just because of traction control, and I've had a handful of sketchy highway merges because I couldn't get up to speed because the damn traction control was cutting power.
sparxxraps@reddit
Nah awd is overrated . I live in the Midwest and we get significant snow in the winter and I myself much prefer rwd over awd or 4x4 a lot comes down to driving skill I haven’t slid off the road with my rwd with all terrains . If you drive like you have a brain you don’t need awd or 4x4 in ninty percent of cases. All those systems do is add needless complication and potential future issues and as someone who works on their own vehicles no thanks.
Dapper-Lab-9285@reddit
AWD can give false confidence. Yes it can help you get going when conditions are bad but it does nothing for you when you need to stop safely. Suitable tyres get you going in bad conditions and more importantly will get you stopped.
An AWD on summer tyres will get plenty of places a 2WD can't, but the AWD on summers will do nothing to help you when you go "Ohh SHIT" on a muddy or icy road. For the vast majority of people a 2WD with correct tyres will be safer than a AWD on summer tyres, especially since most people ask for the cheapest tyres!
AlternativeCraft8905@reddit
If I can’t do donuts in the parking lot what is even the point. We don’t get snow but in heavy rain I always take the 4x4 in case I need 4 high
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Some can do donuts.
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
We like wheel spin. We really like rear drive wheel spin.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I really like AWD wheel spin.
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
It's fun too for sure
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Your viewpoint, while undeniably awesome, is not actually the majority viewpoint in this thread.
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
Well, that's like...their problem. Jk. Is all good. Awd has its uses, but it definitely doesn't help you stop in bad conditions. Only get going. And crashes happen when you can't steer or stop.
Awd traction helps a little bit with directing the car at speed, but...that generally requires a level of driving knowledge, practiced skill in applying it and instinct to actually put some throttle down, not slam brakes, when things go wrong, that the average driver does not have.
Awd will help Randy Pobst get around a snowy bend at 50 mph. It won't help 90% of drivers in that scenario. More likely to give them a false sense of confidence.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
That's all true. People get on kinda a crusade against AWD and start making wild and provably false statements because they are frustrated by what they perceive as a waste of money, which then motivates threads like this one. It's all a bit amusing.
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
Yeah, like it's not bad. It's kind of nice and it does help in the rain for sure. Subjectively having owned front, rear, front-biased all wheel and rear biased all wheel, gasoline ans hybrid...I've tried it all. I'm no racer or whatever, bur in terms of fun and sport feel, hitting the road, enjoying the feeling of launching and steering: 1. Rear 2. Rear based all 3. Front based all 4. Front In terms of rain driving compromise between fun and not feeling like you're gonna die, rear based all is a nice place to be. In the snow, just put snows on whatever you have. A rear drive on snows is safer than an all wheel on reg tires. That's the bottomline most don't want to realize. And this is proven on sites like TireRack and many others where they physically show you the snow and ice braking performance on summer/all seasons vs snows. The difference is so massive. Not being to brake has nothing to do with your drive wheels and if you can't brake in time -> massive car pile up. Get whatever drive train you enjoy and put snows on in late fall!
DJrm84@reddit
Being a euro driver where most people drive cars that are FWD, the post doesn't make much sense. The best part about AWD in the snow with proper snow tires is that you can keep the speed down when going up steep slippery slopes. There's a reasonable chance you can get going again if you have to stop. This provides safety.
But then I remember this is probably an American and they're driving mostly an unladen pick up with RWD as a baseline. Of course AWD would be superior no matter if it's winter or snow or the tire condition. You can get stuck on flat ground with those, just on a little grass when it's raining. American tarmac is quite slippery compared to the Norwegian (cars can flip here), so fishtailing can also occur if it's raining ice. Studded tires are mostly forbidden, and changing tires for the season is rare.
So yeah. 4WD and AWD are superior. Especially EVs. It does weigh more so you can tow more but there's less loading capacity in the car itself. If there's four adults in a car with a 20 kg bag each, 75 kg on the roof (ski box) you'd be surprised how many EV AWD cars would be overloaded here, while their FWD counterpart would be within limits.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
How is the tarmac different?
DJrm84@reddit
US tarmac is finer and has more cement in it. Norwegian tarmac is much softer. It's possible because we don't have the high temperatures during summer, and an advantage is that it behaves more like plastic to account for movement in the ground from frost hives. The coarseness gives more friction, but wears faster.
Old_Sign3705@reddit
AWD is a low-value option for most people, but we've been led to believe we all need it. Also, your comment that "AWD adds a significant level of stability on wet roads" is nonsense unless you're talking about high HP cars being driven hard.
RHS1959@reddit
Value, like beauty, is one of those things you can only define for yourself. The marketplace says what percentage of people do value it. Yes, marketers have told people they need it. No, it won’t get grandma to church any faster or safer, but destabilizing situations can occur even in ordinary traffic. Most people never lock up their brakes either, but ABS is a good thing to have just in case. I’ll argue that an AWD car is a better car than any RWD or FWD car unless you are building a car for a specific purpose like drifting.
Old_Sign3705@reddit
I don't think the fact that we all drive AWD has anything to do with a need for AWD. ABS is a good contrast. At some point in your driving adventures you will need to stop suddenly. ABS will measurably improve your stopping time and it's definitely helped me occasionally. But it's not nearly so clear when or how AWD will help most drivers. I truly can't think of a single instance in my 30 years of driving when AWD would have been a meaningful benefit. It's useless or nearly useless for so many people who have it. If you have a steep driveway that ices up or you like racing around the Nurburgring in the rain with a 500hp car, o.k., but that's not most people.
BadResults@reddit
Just getting going again at an intersection on ice in winter is so much better with AWD than FWD or RWD, including with winter tires. I have good new winter tires on my BRZ, which isn’t a high torque car, and I have to start extremely slow to get moving after a stop on ice or else I’ll just spin my tires. Same with any of my previous 2WD cars, whether FWD or RWD.
I also have an Outback with just all weathers and it gets going no problem. I also used to have a WRX with the same winter tires my BRZ has, and it was even better.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
At some point in your driving adventures you will need to accelerate suddenly
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Accelerate while turning, like making an unprotected left, in the rain. An AWD will do that far far better.
unduly_verbose@reddit
If you’re making a left turn where you have to accelerate so hard you’re losing traction on damp pavement, you (1) need new tires and (2) aren’t a very good driver.
Drive to the conditions.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
My "conditions" are high HP, a great AWD system, and a skilled driver.
DFLDrew@reddit
Where is the skilled driver? All I see is a really overconfident one
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
How could you tell the difference?
DFLDrew@reddit
Skilled drivers know. Being a good driver isn’t about saving your car from a hairy situation, it’s avoiding it in the first place. Skilled drivers wait until a safe time to turn, they don’t try to shoot gaps (which is what bad drivers that think they are good drivers do).
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Choosing AWD is avoiding it in the first place.
unduly_verbose@reddit
“Skilled driver” who needs AWD so he doesn’t break traction lol
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
No amount of skill overcomes physics.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
This comment doesn't make sense. Safety margin is a real thing. There are two ways to increase safety margin on a bridge. 1. lower the weight allowed to cross the bridge. 2. make the bridge stronger. AWD/FWD is a type 2 issue. Every responder is making a type 1 response. This is apples to oranges. no matter what the capability of the car is, you still need to leave a safety margin. If you're turning with a 200,000 lb truck, you need a larger gap than this guy does in his AWD car. That's simple physics, and it has nothing to do with risky driving.
unduly_verbose@reddit
I mostly agree, but there’s a limit. The other idea is “can the oncoming car safely avoid me if something goes wrong” (eg your car breaks down mid intersection, you realize there’s a pedestrian in the crosswalk or heck, somebody going the wrong way in the lane you’re turning into). It’s a great idea to leave at minimum enough time for the oncoming car to avoid you.
With your comment, you are saying “slow cars need a bigger gap” which I agree with.
With OP’s comment, they are saying “I can try to get through unsafe gaps”
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I'd add to what u/ParticularWhole9433 said by pointing out that counting on the best reactions of others is a poor strategy doomed to failure. Going with his type 2, premise is that with my ability to accelerate while turning I can ensure that I'm out of the path of other traffic even if they make all the wrong decisions. I do not need to rely on them reacting correctly at all, or worse can can create enough margin that even if everyone else makes the exact wrong choice, I'm still OK. That is the safety margin it provides.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
safety margin is time to stop. "that counting on the best reactions of others is a poor strategy doomed to failure." This is an idea I think about often, but I would want to come up with a new phrase for, ideally. On the water I think of this as safety margin is not crossing the bow of a loaded container ship in a narrow (from it's perspective narrow that is) channel with less than 2 miles of clearance while I'm loaded up. That's safety margin, and it's a good rule of thumb. But 2.5 miles in front of that ship is still a bit nervous. Now, if my vessel is somewhere too shallow for that container ship to reach without the ground stopping it first, that's what I call safety mudgin. That's where we want to live.
Bad puns aside, this is why I prefer the water to the highway these days. Any time you're separated from oncoming traffic by a little yellow line, you're counting on a lot of other people to not fall asleep for 1 second.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I know jack shit about boating, but "safety mudgin", that's funny.
I drive truck for a living and have a friend who's a pilot. He made an interesting point that sticks with me. That at 30,000' there's nobody to hit and he has a time to figure things out if something goes wrong. But driving, other vehicles and people are a few feet away and there's no time to do anything but react with instinct when something goes wrong. It requires a much higher level of constant focus.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Of course there's the other side of the coin--on land, you can always just stop and you're fine. On the water, if you stop you will drift into rocks eventually and maybe die, and leaks can sink your boat as well. In the air, if you stop you fall to the ground very very quickly. Think of this--tow truck driver on land...not that urgent, not that difficult. rescue tow boat driver on the water...often pretty urgent, kinda hard to do in heavy weather as the force of the waves can flip the towed vessel over. It's a quite dangerous profession, if you look at the statistics for oceans and bays it's kinda staggeringly dangerous. Tow airplane pilot--Simply doesn't exist as a job, airplanes that lose power either glide to a landing or crash to death. There are a few reasons why that is so, but the fact that the job as such simply doesn't exist gives one pause. But it is nice and open up there.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
A very good point, I'm guessing you're a tug operator.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
guilty as charged
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That's a cool gig.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
yes. The phrase I used which neatly encapsulates your entire definition there is "safety margin".
He did not say that.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
VERY well said.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Well, the safety margin/bridge analogy is an excellent one, but I actually wrote it out a little incorrectly and am going to revise it now.
clutchthepearls@reddit
You're telling on yourself here.
You can just wait until you actually have enough space to make your turn and drive normally like everyone else does.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
this is /askcarguys , not /drivingslowlywhilescreaminginterror
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Or I can just go.
DFLDrew@reddit
If you decide to jump that gap, you deserve the Darwin Award delivered by Freightliner. AWD absolutely cannot substitute for good decision making
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This is a really fucking shitty thing to say and upvote, you and all who upvote it are scum.
ApePositive@reddit
/thread
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Is that not significant?
OofNation739@reddit
Youre ignoring arguments. Its that most people really dont need the awd. It has its benefits and its downsides.
The issue is many people believe that if it snows awd is this magic solution. When its a bunch of factors that many people overlook. Tires, drivetrain, weight, intent, how they drive.
So many people do treat awd as a magic fix for issues that can easily be solved in other vehicles.
I took my tbird in 6" snow with near bald summer tires and got it home 15 miles. It was sketchy as fuck and I had no breaks. Drivers matter more than the car itself.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes, the vast majority can get by without AWD."
OofNation739@reddit
But most people do not need it. That is the main point. The exact benefits of awd are very much not seen in most daily conditions outside weather.
Most people arnt constantly accelerating so hard the benefits of AWD traction isnt even a factor. Except in weather, which most people moderate their driving accordingly anyway. While TC also eats up the wheel slip.
The off the line acceleration isnt something each person needs or uses in most conditions. As is the benefits that make it good on a sheer preformance.
The average driver/person isnt looking at this stuff. They're more concerned about other things, reliability, style, looks, utility, comfort, etc...
Weather and conditions is one of the few where it comes in and people vastly overestimate how well awd changes things.
hinault81@reddit
We had a tundra 2009 with whatever factory tires they came with. 4x4. We were at a restaurant (canada) and when we came out it had lightly snowed. Flat, open parking lot, and the tundra couldnt even get out of the parking lot. A civic with proper tires would've done far better.
Replaced the tires right away, and it was like a billy goat and could climb any snow terrain after that.
Awd or 4x4 is great, but I think people may hear that and think theyre all good. False sense of security. They really need to be combined with good tires.
Same with wet roads. I had a tacoma with factory tires and it was crap in the rain. Replaced them with some good Michelins and it never spun a tire in the wet again.
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
Been a tech for over 30 years , if you need it, get it. If you dont dont. They are significantly more expensive to fix especially for engine and transmission work. Most i work on are not needed where I live
3dprintedthingies@reddit
The answer is yes.
Reddit would have you believe a fwd Honda civic in snow tires is gonna complete the Rubicon if you let them.
Past 250hp AWD starts to make a difference on dry pavement. Most cars aren't running past a 275, so they just don't have the rubber to put down the power people expect in performance cars. To keep everything safe AWD is the natural conclusion. The 911 is AWD in certain trims for a reason.
At the end of the day if you drive like an idiot in the snow not even snow tires are going to save you. Snow tires are a 30% increase in traction. Decreasing your tire pressure by 5 psi can also give you a considerable increase in traction in snow.
The only problem I've found with AWD is it doesn't warn you. Once you start sliding unless you know how to aggressively drive out of the slide youve gotta have lady luck on your side. Rwd warns you and you know to slow down, and a simple throttle modulation saves the slide.
Fwd is a waste of time and just lets you fall off the road careening headfirst at the tree. Sure do love losing STEERING when I get low traction.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Well said, I'd just add a footnote to the problem/warning section that it depends on the AWD system. Some give plenty of warning.
rjvCdn@reddit
awd can be useful when used correctly, but the majority of drivers are idiots and drive like it automatically makes them invincible on the roads and they make things more dangerous for others. i've never felt the need to go out of my way for awd, but if it were available on a setup i wanted, then i'd be open to it.
for example, i have a '23 mazda 3. i chose the NA Manual over automatic and awd because with my snow tires, i've never had an issue in michigan and ontario winters and i'd rather have 3 pedals because i find it more fun and makes for better driving. i like the additional car control. if there was a manual turbo awd, i probably would have done it.
awd is not essential for me and too many people rely on it too much as a crutch becasue they just assume safer
ReaperThugX@reddit
AWD is great for getting going in snow. But tires and brakes were what stop you and are arguably more important. If I had to pick between AWD or tires, I’d take tires
I live in MN, drive a Honda Accord, and use Michelin Cross Climate 2 tires
koolerb@reddit
It’s fine if you want, I just haven’t wanted it. I’ll take mechanical simplicity.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Then you drive something with pushrods?
koolerb@reddit
Me, no, EV’s currently.
lionbacker54@reddit
No one dislikes AWD.
But some people don’t understand that tire grip in snow and ice matters more for traction than the ability to deliver power to all four tires.
Many questions on this sub say “do I really need winter tires if I have AWD? I live in a winter state.” So many replies point out the shortcomings of AWD.
Dzov@reddit
Bunch of comments pointing out how snow tires wouldn’t get people up their driveways while AWD and all seasons did.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You should read the rest of the comments.
skrapppt@reddit
yes makes heavy snow driving easy, still need winter tires to stop. it makes absolutely no difference in dry or rain to 90% of cars unless you have a high hp car in which case you wouldn't be asking the question so. i've never felt i ever had less traction in rain than dry lol, unless i am purposely trying to drift obviously
BusyBeinBorn@reddit
A lot depends on your expectations. I always had FWD cars and they never kept me home in any conditions and I always managed to get around, but with my AWD I don’t even need to shovel the snow off the driveway to get into the garage.
Nstraclassic@reddit
I drive a 350+ hp FWD manual civic. I spin the front tires on a hot day with the stickiest michelins you can get. In the winter I use winter tires and drive like a respinsible adult and magically dont slip at all shocked pikachu It's almost like the driver matters just as much as the car and unless youre driving a shitbox with bald tires, the car is not the limiting factor in every day driving
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
No amount of skill will overcome physics.
Nstraclassic@reddit
Youre right which is why the engineers who built the car did
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Did what, overcame physics?
Nstraclassic@reddit
Overcame physical limitations yes. Youre not this stupid man so dont play dumb
Jjmills101@reddit
I mean I agree with this most of the time but you can’t really account for ice. Which is to say being smart is knowing exactly how long your stopping distance in the snow is and then always keeping 2-3x that distance available in case of ice or hard pack
Nstraclassic@reddit
You absolutely can account for ice.. just stay home bro
637_649@reddit
Yes. I was stationed in Groton CT back in the late 90s. I had a 1990 F250 4x4, and a 1979 Thunderbird I got for a backup vehicle because it was in great shape, and the seller was only asking $600 for it.
We had a pretty bad blizzard that left a ton of snow.
When I tried to go to work the next morning, the F250 wouldn't move. I got out, locked the hubs, tried everything in 4H and 4L, and couldn't get anywhere. Being an honest guy, and wanting to be honest about trying everything, I jumped in the T-bird, and drove to work with hardly a tire spin.
I got to work only to find the gates locked and the base closed down, since nobody could make it to work. So back home I went. Picked up some donuts and coffee on the way, and had a relaxing snow day.
Bread-fi@reddit
I read that as "did some donuts on the way".
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes, the vast majority can get by without AWD"
Specific_Musician240@reddit
For places with no snow, what’s the point?
It adds more cost, more things to service, weight, worse fuel economy.
Yes, there could be performance gains, GR Corolla, Golf R, etc. but you can’t use that performance difference on a public road.
Then there are so many different varieties of AWD. You really need to understand what you are getting and what you are not getting.
Ok-Ad8998@reddit
Underestimate what exactly? They kinda are what they are, a tradeoff. You get better traction in a lot of conditions at a cost of extra weight and complexity. Also a small cost of power and fuel use. You can choose based on your priorities.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
How dare you make a reasonable comment, we don't do that kind of thing here.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
That's well put. Especially the way you were careful not to mention snow tires as part of the tradeoff, because that's an independent variable. If you can just get everyone else to stop posting on the issue, and let you handle it, we'll be all good.
Ok-Ad8998@reddit
I didn't mention snow tires because I don't think about them. The only time I ever used them was on FedEx trucks I drove. When I started driving, I had access to only RWD with wide tires and a lot of power, so I learned my snow driving with less than great conditions. With less snow, there has been less need for it lately and regular tires have much better snow traction than ever.
ParticularWhole9433@reddit
Like my boss always tell me, if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.
jsaranczak@reddit
Lol this is a neat shitpost, I like it.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Thanks.
pm-me-racecars@reddit
I have never seen a situation where awd is needed. Handy? Sure.
There might be a situation where it's needed, but I struggle to think of one where a normal person would be driving.
Jolrit@reddit
No steep, snow covered hills in your area?
pm-me-racecars@reddit
Nothing worse than a snow covered rally stage.
If someone regularly drives on roads worse than this then I think that firmly puts them outside of the driving a normal person would do.
Jolrit@reddit
This was in Pittsburgh city limits. Try again.
pm-me-racecars@reddit
To be clear, you're telling me that within the Pittsburgh city limits, there are roads worse than a proper rally stage?
I've never been to Pittsburgh, so I can't fully call bullshit, but I find that hard to believe.
Jolrit@reddit
I said a steep hill with 10 inches of unplowed snow. Why can’t you understand that?
pm-me-racecars@reddit
You said impossible to do without awd. That's the part I'm struggling with.
I fully believe you have steep hills with snow on them. I don't believe that they both
I get you're saying that both of those things happen, I just don't believe you. If that's the case, why don't all the accidents encourage people to use a different route?
dockdockgoos@reddit
I think the number of people that think AWD will solve all their problems is far greater than the number of people that argue that it’s not the miracle many think it is.
Professor_Iron@reddit
There's a pretty long list of features that we can agree are useful and make everything better.
If we'd add all those features to cars we'd end up driving 3.5 ton tanks that feel like shit. AWD is rather high on the list of those "nice to have, not crucial" things to slash for weight gains. Most cars are better without it. Just try a FWD Subaru Impreza - it's far more fun as a daily driver than a WRX.
None of the best automotive engineers and designers - Hans Ledwinka, Ferdinand Porsche, Alec Issigonis, Colin Chapman, Dante Giacosa - even considered AWD in their cars. It's unnecessary bloat.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Sure they did, the tech just didn't really exist yet. I see you left out Jörg Bensinger and Ferdinand Piëch, I wonder why.
ceo_of_denver@reddit
AWD haters on suicide watch in this thread
No-Reason-2822@reddit
I too sing the praises of AWD in performance driving situations. However, the sad reality is, there is nowhere in 1st world countries where you can legally drive it hard enough (on-road) to realize those benefits. FWD is enough traction for all but the deepest snow and predictable even in wheel spin situations. And RWD with even half-suitable tires for the vehicle/weather is quite safe at posted speed limits, even in wet conditions. So snow really is the best argument.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
It's not illegal to accelerate quickly.
And who really cares, how many people really drive fully within the law.
No-Reason-2822@reddit
Almost none! Lol
Mines a TT V8 AWD. 60 comes in less than 4 sec. It scoots when asked for sure! And it doesn’t care if it’s wet. That said, it’s pretty excessive for all street situations. You have to drive it like a complete a-hole to be really leaning on the AWD capability. WOT corner exits are addictive though.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Yeah they are, nothing drifts a corner and shoots out of it like a proper AWD.
Mine is a rear bias clutch system, the rear is direct, front reacts with a clutch. This adds a trick, it'll spin the rear and then apply the front a moment later. So I can floor it and turn, spin the rear, flip a bitch and the AWD then shoots me off in the opposite direction, it's wicked fun.
No-Reason-2822@reddit
BMW X-Drive?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Chrysler 300.
No-Reason-2822@reddit
Got some Benz DNA 🧬 in there….
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Some absolutely, but not in the AWD system. The pre-'09 cars use the same AWD system as the Benz, post-'09 is quite different.
Mizar97@reddit
The only people that say you don't need AWD are the people that haven't tried AWD.
I went from an FWD Civic SI with studded snow tires to an AWD WRX with normal street tires, and it STILL got better traction than the Civic. When I put on all weather ones it got even better.
westleysnipes604@reddit
I live in the mountains whee we sometimes get a couple feet of snow in a day and often will get snow for a week or 2 straight.
I commented on a post hating on SUV's that basically said people are stupid to buy them over a minivan.
I just mentioned that most Minivans are FWD and the replies were wild.
People equating SUV's to white suburban soccer moms and racism.
People saying " I live in the
North" where we "get snow" lol lol
AWD is an amazing thing for icey, snowy roads. It makes what would be a sketchy drive a mellow commute.
Winter tires are necessary also.
I once did a drive in a 2008 Lincoln MKX on summer tires. First day of the fall we got snow. Cars were literally sliding sideways while stopped on a super mild incline of about 8-10° and I was able to juat pull forward and get out of the way with ease. The next day the news said it was the single most expensive day for my local insurance in history lol . British Columbia Canada.
Do you need AWD in Texas or California, no
But people definitely underestimate it for winter conditions.
Cue AWD hate comments now. And how GNC Safari is AWD lol
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Modern SUVs and snow tires are amazing in that regard. Used to be someone living in a place like that would have to have a traditional 4WD with true chains or a snowmobile to go anywhere.
Now you can just get in your pre-heated comfortable AWD SUV and cruise into town in ease and comfort.
westleysnipes604@reddit
On my street, sometimes the plow will skip us for 3 or 4 days if there is a storm.
Before AWD I would either be snowed in or possibly be driving out of my driveway, reversing doen the hill I live on into a dead end culdesac. Then be doing 3 or 4 passes up the hill and reversing in my tracks until there was tracks 3/4 up the hill. Then accelerating just enough to go fast without breaking traction. Then laying a smokey patch on the snow at the top just to get over the hump.
Now I can drive out of the driveway with 4 feet of snow on my roof and push the snow off the car on the corner at the top of the hill. Lol
itsjakerobb@reddit
AWD is great in low-traction situations. RWD is great in good traction situations. RWD has the benefit of being lighter and simpler.
Snow tires turn some low-traction situations into good traction situations.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
The RWD advantages go away when HP is high enough.
itsjakerobb@reddit
No, lightness and simplicity remain advantages no matter how much power there is. Balance and tire loading in turns can also be better with RWD in a lot of situations.
If there is enough power to overwhelm the tires, though, then we get into that low-traction situation I mentioned.
No-Reason-2822@reddit
Got some 4-Matic Benz DNA in her then….
Matloc@reddit
We had a storm this year where AWD might get you to your destination but 2wd didn’t get out of your driveway. Plow trucks were getting stuck.
No-Exchange8035@reddit
I prefer not to deal with bad weather. Winter tires and awd/4wd for winter (praries canada). Once you make the switch its hard to go back, it just makes everything easier.
blackbnr32@reddit
Yes, they do. AWD makes way more of difference than tires in slippery conditions
wreck_of_u@reddit
I lived in Canada for 15yrs and AWD was super useful when you get snow plowed in on your street parking spot.
I actually find FWD "safer" from overshooting when turning in winter, because stepping on the gas and counter-steering "pulls the car back straight." When you get stuck, just shovel a bit, put some crap under the front tire, and off you go.
I now live in Florida, and all my rust-free cars are, and will be RWD 😆 Only downside is the hump in the middle of the backseat floor.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That pulling aspect is true for many AWD systems as well.
wreck_of_u@reddit
Indeed, but the little "push" from the rear wheels, no matter how smart the AWD computer is, tends to overshoot more than a regular FWD. This is at least for regular drivers like me, on public roads. Perhaps it's different for rally car drivers.
I experienced this with my '17 Nissan Pathfinder and '22 Subaru Crosstrek, which both have excellent AWD systems (I like the Pathfinder's more), versus my beater '01 Mazda Protege5 with a handbrake, winter tires in front and all-season at the back (lol)
GoldfishDude@reddit
I just love how many people act like it's AWD or snow tires.
Ok_Engine_1442@reddit
This screams skill issue.
Yes AWD is great if it’s actually AWD that works. Look at how many cars AWD cars fail the roller test.
Being sure footed means you are sure of your feet, hands and ass.
A proper drivers ass will tell you everything you need to know about what your cars is doing.
NikkorMatt456@reddit
Traction is not absolute. How well a car performs in all conditions is just exaggerated on a snow or ice covered road surface. Back when Audi first launched its Quattro system for its rally program, the engineers described it as offering better traction and balance on all surfaces including dry pavement. The more important of the two factors mentioned there is balance because a true AWD system offers advantages not only during acceleration but also more balanced grip during steady state driving and under deceleration with engine braking distributed across all four tires. Torque is torque regardless of how it's developed and variably applied at the tire contact patches.
This is why Honda's SH-AWD concept was so important when it was released with its steering angle and yaw rate sensors and why some of the other manufacturers then added their intelligently controlled active diff systems to catch up with it. Some took the shortcut of using brake-based systems. Twenty years later, Honda's SH-AWD is still one of the most sophisticated AWD systems available. And it's lost on many car people that Honda's system applies its directional traction effort to the rear tires including during off-throttle braking while cornering. I think most people don't understand that even modern braking systems themselves disrupt cornering ability up to the point when ABS engages, and then only the ABS which are intelligently controlled 4-channel systems can overcome their negative inputs on handling.
The question is always whether you want something rather than need it. The correct tires certainly improve traction. They do little to solve how balanced a car can be in all conditions.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Ultimately SH-AWD is a marketing term and I think you're over selling it. When is SH-AWD get an active rear diff? Are we talking a clutch per side system like the Focus RS?
"Most sophisticated" is subjective, and many would disagree.
NikkorMatt456@reddit
SH-AWD has always had a variable clutch on each side of the rear diff. That’s how it variably alters the torque split to each side as well as front to rear. The original version in the 2005 RL also had a planetary gear set multiplier on the rear differential input. That was replaced by simply altering the rear differential ratio.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I stand corrected, I'd been told that SH-AWD was just a Haldex with a higher ratio in the rear. I'd just assumed that was correct and hadn't really looked into it.
NikkorMatt456@reddit
The 2005 RL version was actually pretty innovative in that the input planetary gear set had a decent ratio range for the rear diff overdrive. The routine maintenance fluid changes were expensive though. It’s a shame really. Today, many people believe the Pilot, Passport and Ridgeline also have torque vectoring because the same rear differential is used as that in the MDX. They actually don’t. The software is different.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
True overdrive type torque vectoring is the one technology I wish my AWD had. That said I think a superior way of doing it would be to overdrive the front on a rear bias system and then just use brakes.
I found a way to overdrive the front, or more accurately under drive the rear. But I haven't yet found way to tune my software to better use the brakes in that fashion.
NikkorMatt456@reddit
One addition. Looking through multiple YT videos about BMW's M-Sport Differential which is a true torque vectoring clutch pack rear diff unlike the one used in the regular version of X-Drive which relies on TC braking, it's amazing to see even some of the BMW dealer folks getting what it does completely wrong.
PinkGreen666@reddit
Here in the PNW we don’t really get snow, we get ice. Snow tires don’t do much on ice, especially with FWD. It’s pretty common knowledge that if you go skiing/snowboarding regularly or expect to get around when it does snow, you’ll need AWD or 4x4.
Or snow chains/studded tires. Most people just use chains because they’re cheap and effective on ice no matter the drive type. No one buys snow tires here.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Ehhh, on non-commercial vehicles I see a lot more snow tires than chains.
There is truth to the observation that when it's bad in the lowlands ice is more often the issue than snow. People who buy winter tires should buy studded ones.
Much of the issue is the chain laws, AWD/4WD is exempt, FWD/RWD are not regardless of tires.
Dimathiel49@reddit
How else will you spin out if not for too much torque going to the rears.
Power!!!!!\~ Jeremy Clarkson
RaiseOurAxesToTheSky@reddit
Good tires are still more important than your drivetrain. Yes AWD / 4×4 helps tremendously but the point of being realistic about what matters more isn't just hate on the drivetrain (it shouldn't be anyway, that's unreasonable), it's to really hammer it home for the general public in this sub. Tires > drivetrain. Also, AWD only helps you accelerate and maintain slightly better traction. It doesn't decrease your stopping distance or make your car immune to sliding. A lot of people act like it does, so it's important to remind everyone what's what.
And yes, I do love me some good 4WD. My Tacoma is 4×4 and I've driven it in snowy conditions a couple times. Snow tires + 4LO means I can navigate deep snow much easier (low speed). If I diff swap for the locking rear diff and maybe put aftermarket front diff lockers I'd have a magic "get unstuck" feature in case I really sank deep into snow, mud, anything.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes tires are very important"
Who?
RaiseOurAxesToTheSky@reddit
Every person who has slid off the road, into someone else, or slid but stayed on the road, didn't cause an accident, but still learned a valuable lesson. It's not that rare to see someone in an AWD in a ditch. Neither this subreddit nor reddit as a whole represents the entire population.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
It's not that rare to see someone in a FWD in a ditch.
RaiseOurAxesToTheSky@reddit
Sure. I don't believe FWD is much better either. That's not the point, the point is that tires are far more important. Also more important are: driver skill (#1), brakes, weight, and ground clearance.
unit1_nz@reddit
AWD systems are very different based on manufacturer. Subaru = amazing, Honda = next to useless.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Why, what's different between them?
unit1_nz@reddit
With Subaru power is to all wheels all of the time. Honda only delivers power to the rear when it notices loss of traction on the front.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Are you sure about that?
unit1_nz@reddit
"Subaru's Symmetrical AWD is a full-time, active system that continuously powers all four wheels, making it superior for severe weather and off-roading. Conversely, Honda's Real Time AWD is an on-demand system that primarily drives the front wheels, only sending power to the rear when detecting slip"
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
They both do that using software controlled clutches.
SphericalCrawfish@reddit
I'm sure I'm going to get downvoted into oblivion.
But the majority of people here and elsewhere don't really know what AWD is doing, how a modern AWD system works, and certainly don't know the (lack of) industry standards about them.
As someone who gets paid to think about specifically transverse AWD systems 40 hours a week it's frustrating.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Absolutely true.
Paid to think about it?
Malakai0013@reddit
Yes, and actually no.
Some folks like to downplay the usefulness of AWD, thats certainly true.
The other side of that coin is how often car makers will call "traction assist" all wheel drive. The Prius AWD system is just adding a wheelchair motor on the rear axle, but US laws allow them to call that AWD. That makes people judge true AWD systems like a gimmick.
Another ridiculous treat, is that theres no law saying that Toyota cant call that Prius system 4WD or 4X4. Legally, if all four wheels can sometimes, occasionally have power, it can be called whatever the carmaker wants to call it, AWD, 4WD, or 4X4. And in the European market, the terms are usually interchangeable. Cue the Top Gear/Grand Tour guys saying the Impreza and Evo have "four-wheel-drive."
The problem with nuance, is most people dont care about the nuance enough.
Tldr: yes, but also no.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Absolutely true, there's a serious lack of understanding combined with over-saturation of marketing.
When I hear "it's symmetrical" what my brain hears is "it's got what plants crave".
Malakai0013@reddit
Subaru uses "symmetrical" to mean all the half-axles are the same exact length. So no torque steering. Thats the symmetry. Subaru does utilize a proper, all time all wheel drive. One of the few, really.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
By that logic most modern AWD systems are "symmetrical".
Not really, for decades every Subaru with an automatic/CVT transmission has been a clutch based Haldex like system.
Ragnar-Wave9002@reddit
Does awd improve fuel economy or name it worse?
Does awd increase the purchase price?
Everything is huh?
Major_Enthusiasm1099@reddit
AWD is less fuel efficient, so no, not 'everything' is better
sebastiand1@reddit
Most AWD system in SUV’s and crossovers are pathetic. The two most important factor in driving in the snow are tires and ground clearance.
Affectionate_Sort_78@reddit
It’s a topic where blow hards can brag about how awesome they are because they don’t have 4WD. They are better drivers, smarter human beings and more noble souls because they resist the evil of 4WD.
Of course it helps. Of course if you are an idiot you can be a danger to others and yourself with 4WD. What you describe is just the bad side of petty, sad and bitter human beings. Just virtually pat them on the head and say, ‘Wow, you’re awesome!’
shoot_your_eye_out@reddit
I think the point is: in snow, it isn’t as big of a benefit as you would think, and it also leads to a false sense of confidence.
All cars have four wheel braking. AWD or 4x4 help a car get up something, and that’s about it. It doesn’t help on the way down, and it’s generally not super meaningful when cornering in incliment weather. Snow tires are more important for safety.
HecklerKoch_USP@reddit
I live in an area that gets snow just a once or twice a year and always get AWD on my wife's car. She has to drive to work regardless of weather and it gives us some extra assurance she won't get stuck somehow.
We don't do winter tires here, so she just has some nice all season tires that she rides year round. The current ones happen to be 3PMS rated too for those rare instances.
OregonMothafaquer@reddit
Had a 2021 Mazda 3 turbo AWD… absolutely loved it… only thing I disliked was the lack of manual transmission.
I’d have to get a GR Corolla to get everything I want drivetrain wise but the cargo room is horrid
Organic_Warthog7238@reddit
If AWD truly was the biggest and baddest the other driving modes wouldn’t exist lol for the average consumer unless you’re on the track doing quarter mile runs please explain why tf you’d need AWD. And it better not be snow ice driven for almost a decade and not once did my FWD slide like it’s Mario kart we flood and get rain and slippery roads often my fwd didn’t slip and slide like I’m at great wolf lodge. What tf does AWD change for me ? If you need it it’s just a lack of skill behind the wheel AWD is just 4 wheels sliding instead of 2 good judgment and great tires> 4 wheel acceleration
IKnowItCanSeeMe@reddit
My Subaru AWD was incredible. I combined it with a slight lift and A/T tires, and it could go anywhere that I have enough clearance to get to.
But, skill is also involved. I've taken a RWD V8 car through some pretty nasty stuff as well, but basic cheapest Douglas tires from Walmart. Made it just fine through winter and some pretty soggy roads.
wrd83@reddit
I think it boils down to mostly 3 reasons:
Awd is overkill most of the time. And for the vast majority of people snow tires are better than awd + all season. If you go 1 time per year to snow you driving is more of a limitation than the 4wd is a benefit .
Very few vehicles have all time all wheels driven. Most have haldex and only very few have mechanical limited slip differentials
Weight. Most AWD are pavement princesses. If you want to get superior driving mechanics. Lower center of gravity. Weight weight weight. Mid-engine rear wheel car (save that . If performance does not mattet that much a lighter car with FWD and snow tires beats a heavy 4wd suv/truck 90% of the times.
On off road a rally race car is as fast as a single seater to 100kph (even on gravel). On a track once you hit 150kph a rally car just looks stupid.
Substantial-Ad772@reddit
I recently bought Subaru Outback and I can tell you that I will never buy car without awd again. Even on snow, awd with snow tires > fwd with snow tires. But handling, dirt roads and rain, awd is way better then fwd or rwd.
yogfthagen@reddit
The fact is that most drivers (90%+) will never use hhrir cars in a way that will get vlosd yo hhe lkmits of thrir vehicle's limits.
Most crashes happen at less than 50% of hhd vehicle's traction.
The extra traction of an awd car doesn't matter if yoj don't PRACTICE using it. And, very honestly, you'll get a bunch of tickets if you do practice enough to be capable enough to use it under emergency circumstances.
You're better off with antilock brakes.
Lorcan207@reddit
I've lived in New England for 50+ years. New Hampshire and Maine. I've had RWD, FWD and AWD; with and without using snow tires. Best is AWD and unless you are going off road, all season radials are fine. Get snow if needed. Next best was FWD with snow tires.
breaststroker42@reddit
AWD is great. But not as great as proper tires. Both is obviously better though. It’s more that people are arguing against people that think AWD is all you need.
OkTale8@reddit
Yeah I mean if you’ve got a BMW M240 and you like to stomp on the loud pedal leaving stop signs, AWD is clutch.
However, most folks here asking about AWD probably never go over 25% throttle and certainly are not worried about how fast they can leave a stop sign or exit a corner.
Jolrit@reddit
I have a 23 BMW M240 Xdrive with an Mperformance LSD on Michelin AS tires.Last winter when Snowmagedon took place I was driving home from work around midnight. I finally came to a log, steep hill with 10 inches of unplowed snow. I didn’t have one problem making it up this hill even though my bumper was functioning as a snowplow. I didn’t need dedicated snow tires.
fredinNH@reddit
Here’s the thing people get wrong about snow tires vs awd—you can stop faster with snow tires, but you’re less likely to get stuck on an incline with awd and all seasons the fwd and snow tires.
joker_1173@reddit
Well, is AWD and 4WD useful? Absolutely. Should they replace skill? Absolutely not. In snow and slippery conditions, they both can help you get going, but they do nothing the help you steer or stop.
Case in point - when I was a kid in Colorado there was an big influx of Californians that moved there with their 4WD trucks and SUVs, it got so bad thar even the CO state patrol started saying "bad accident on the highway? Look for the guy with the Cali plates, he caused it."
lucidexium@reddit
If the conditions aren't ideal for accelerating, why would it make sense to accelerate faster? One also needs to brake, so if it's slippery and/or low visibility, the performance advantage cancels itself out as you would have to be equally cautious for deacceleration.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Why wouldn't it?
lucidexium@reddit
I mentioned why it doesn't in my previous comment. The only other way I can frame it is if the weather/roads are bad, there is no need to accelerate fast because you'd have to be driving "according to the conditions" anyways which means slow so you can also stop safely. Accelerating faster when you need to be ready to stop safely is counter intuitive.
It sounds like you're arguing I should trade in my 20 year old Civic for something AWD that costs more and is more maintenance just to potentially save a few seconds per year in specific conditions. Although in my experience AWD vehicles tend to one wheel spin up hills and in deep snow as I pass them... so there really isn't much time savings at all.
Adventurous-Depth984@reddit
Ever driven an AWD car on flat pavement?
It’s divine. My last 4 cars have been AWD.
rbo29@reddit
Unless the snow is deep , I'll take my wifes awd rav 4 any day over my ram 4wd on snowy roads
02bluehawk@reddit
AWD is only better than RWD on loose surfaces. AWD cars tend to be very understeery thus not desired for pavement racing. To make an AWD car fast on pavement you have to make it less stable to produce rotation in the car to turn corners quickly.
When it comes to rain and snow on a street car tires matter way more than what wheels are driven. An AWD car with summer tires in going to be a siding around mess on snow while a rear wheel drive car with proper all weather or winter tires will be very stable and perfectly fine. To add to that in rain or snow the tires determine if you can stop or turn or get traction to start moving again once stoped.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"WD cars tend to be very understeery"
Tend, but don't have to be, there's a lot of high performance AWD cars.
02bluehawk@reddit
Yep and in stock form they are understeery. Those that aren't aren't actual AWD (rwd with a front electric drive) or they have a heavly rear biased AWD system. True AWD track cars tend to have an extremely aggressive rear alignment with alot of toe out in the rear to induce rotation.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
There you go right there, there's a lot of AWD cars that don't connect the front unless it's needed and thus the AWD does not contribute to understeer.
And under power driving the front tires can more than counter understeer. What tends to promote it is systems like the Audi torsion system that puts compression braking loading on the front.
02bluehawk@reddit
Except it does contribute to a understeer bias due to the added weight over the nose of the car, there are cars that get this right by having more weight rearward than otherwise necessary and or the suspension is set up in a way to induce overseer bias.
Look dude AWD is great and has its uses. However, you cant seem to understand AWD has its downsides as well. I love AWD cars they can be alot of fun especially on loose surfaces like snow, dirt, or gravel. But on pavement with sticky tires RWD is king. On loose surfaces AWD is king provided it has good tires for the surface.
Here's the thing about AWD pavement cars. They always are making sacrifices to make the car work great. Whether thats disabling the AWD most of the time and just engaging when traction is lost or aggressive suspension geometry and alignment to induce overseer bias. The best use of "AWD" on pavement vehicles is how the LMPH cars and production hyper/supercar with hybrid "awd" use it (like the c8 zr1x) where the vehicle is a rwd car but has an electric motor that drives the front wheels for added braking from regenerative braking and additional power at low speeds. I put quotes around "AWD" because they aren't actually AWD because the 2 axles are not connected in any way so they can do completely different things removing most of the downsides of awd while retaining the benefits. AWD vehicles like BMW x-drive and some Audis use a series of clutches to attempt the same thing however this causes excessive heat in the differential or transfercase causing time on track to be limited or you need to do add active cooling to the system. Even then it causes excessive wear on the clutches and quick part failure.
External-Age7446@reddit
Idk but I love having Awd all my cars have had it and likely always will
TheCamoTrooper@reddit
It's useful, but tires are still more important as they're what allows that power to hit the ground, AWD doesn't create more grip but better tires do, in inclement weather the biggest thing is also the ability to stop and going an appropriate speed to be able to stop quickly and safely, AWD doesn't really do anything for this it mostly just helps you start moving from a stop. Most AWD systems also suck, there's good ones like Quattro, Subaru Symmetrical, SH-AWD but not all are equal
It's also less underestimate and simply that AWD is not at all necessary for like 99% of use cases, i have never owned an AWD vehicle and neither has my dad and do just fine with decades and millions of km driven in a "rural remote" area of Canada. Skill and tires are the most important thing as AWD does nothing to save you if you drive beyond your limits or the cars, which is how most the vehicles we get at MVCs during the winter are AWD, it makes people overconfident and they drive beyond what's acceptable for the conditions
All in all AWD is nice/handy to have for the odd time you're in a situation it's helpful but it never outweighs proper driving and good tires and is not some magical thing that negates need for caution in inclinent weather
BaldursFence3800@reddit
Redditors are unusually salty about AWD/4WD for some reason.
cbf1232@reddit
AWD improves traction while accelerating, but doesn’t improve braking performance.
So it can help get going, and help get up slopes where RWD/FWD can struggle, but it can’t stop any faster. It also doesn’t affect turning unless you’re accelerating through the turn.
For people coming from RWD/FWD to AWD, it can give the illusion of more traction than they actually have, then they try to brake and slide into things.
MackRogue@reddit
To many broke people thinking its not worth it for a daily.
RogLatimer118@reddit
I can't remember a time when I had trouble accelerating in my 2wd car, so clearly a niche case to justify more mechanical weight and complexity, as well as increased fuel consumption.
antikondor@reddit
I don't think people in this sub underestimate AWD, In importance appropriate tires are an order of magnitude ahead of AWD when it comes to winter conditions. AWD is great, but very far from necessary. I drive an RWD wagon with an open diff in nordic winters and due to use of appropriate tires it perfectly fine, AWD as far as commuting is concerned is just a nice to have.
MeIsMyName@reddit
I live in the Seattle area, it rains a lot here. My daily is AWD, and it lets me have fun while driving even on the wet days with less fear of losing traction.
I like my RWD cars too, but they are less fun to drive in the rain and you have to take it easy.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Do me a fav, go here and let this guy know that there's hills in Seattle that can be tough to even get up just in rain with a FWD.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
I bought what I drive specifically because of two locking diffs and a 4:1 transfer case...
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Rubicon?
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Yep, although the Bronco's crawl gear is comparable.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Yeah, but lame in other aspects.
My father had a 2 door Rubicon. We spent a lot of time modifying and heading out in CJs and that sucker spanked them almost right off the dealer lot. A slight lift and some tires and it was as good as any modified CJ we ever had.
I bought what I drive(also Chrysler) in large part because of it's rear bias selectable AWD.
Yeach@reddit
I guess a lot of Reddit doesn’t drive on dirt and muddy areas.
Construction job sites get muddy when it rains. Having AWD is useful when that happens.
maxxbenzz@reddit
I agree, but AWD adds a ton of weight up front. Makes the car feel heavy, and takes aways from that road feel imo. For a sports or muscle car, nothing beats RWD
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Not as much as you might think. My car is available in nearly identical AWD and RWD versions, the AWD version is about 150lbs heavier, but that also includes some more robust suspension components, the AWD parts are probably about 120lbs.
maxxbenzz@reddit
Well thats like stuffing my girlfriend behind the motor. Noticeable imo. Not so much how much weight, but where it is. You dont want more weight in the front. You already have a motor. My E350 rwd and E400 4matic or extremely different. Add the turbos and transfer case, trans axels, it feels like a oil tanker compared to my RWD.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Fair, but I think it's a worthwhile trade.
As for your Mercs, I don't know them well, but I'd take a guess that the 4matic version has a quite different tire and suspension setup.
Jubsz91@reddit
No, the average person and marketing overestimate AWD. Your argument about cars having the power to spin the tire kinda shows why. Slipping a tire is not necessarily bad or indicative that you're not safe. If a mere tire slip worries you that much, you shouldn't be driving in snow. In that sense, AWD can provide a false safety blanket for someone who thinks that they are not lacking grip because they can accelerate from a stop without spinning. I loved my FWD cars in the snow. I'd often blip the throttle when cruising 30-40 mph just to check how much grip i had. If it accelerated smoothly, we were doing pretty good. If it slipped, ok. If it lit up the tires, I should probably be careful and maybe slow down.
We really need to normalize going to an open parking lot in snow and hooning around.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This part I very much agree with. I'd take it even a step further, we need public motor parks. Like an adult version of a skate park. Local governments should acquire derelict land, like old warehouse complexes, airports, etc.. and open them up to public hooning.
Jubsz91@reddit
Lol, that would be awesome but will never happen. If my tax dollars went to my driving hobby, more of my dollars would be going where I want them to.
ProofReflection5431@reddit
Because it's true? Lol
Pale-Ad6216@reddit
Accidents rarely happen because people did not have sufficient grip to accelerate fast enough. So many people make the argument that “awd gets you going faster in the snowL without having any concept for what’s going to help most with the other handling dynamics in those conditions. Had an ice storm in Florida in the early 80’s. My mom had a 4WD Jeep Wagoneer. Nobody could drive for the most part. But she said, I have 4WD. I can get going fine! And she did. And then we were going down a hill approaching a red light. And physics reminded her that there is more to handling than getting going. We did a 360 spin as we slid through and empty intersection. Thankfully nobody else was our driving around.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"Rarely", thus they do happen.
Pale-Ad6216@reddit
Ok. I think you’ll have a lot of success in life if you focus on the edge cases and discount what matters more 99% of the time. Best of luck to you, fellow redditor!
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
So you're the type to ruin your son's dreams?
Pale-Ad6216@reddit
You caught me. I wanted him to undertans that hoping for the 0.001% chance at something to have a career vs. actually having a marketable skill would lead to greater success in life. Perhaps this was my greatest failing as a parent and I should have just let him play video games all day instead of doing school work, playing sports or socializing (in person) with his friends. I’m pretty sure he’s forgiven me since he has an actual career earning money now.
angrycanadianguy@reddit
AWD is a nice bonus, but it isn't needed. If I'm choosing a vehicle, and I could only have AWD or the best tires for the conditions, I'd choose tires every day of the week.
When it comes to a daily driver, again, AWD is nice, but it adds complexity on the vehicle that sees the most use, which is going to make things more expensive than an equivalent FWD.
If I were buying a car that I intended to track, or for spirited driving, then I completely agree that AWD is a significant advantage.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes, the vast majority can get by without AWD"
angrycanadianguy@reddit
Missed that bit 😅 in that case, to answer your title question: absolutely not. Car enthusiasts are extremely aware of the value of AWD in pretty much any non daily driving scenario.
pessimistoptimist@reddit
Yes. people in this sub dismiss AWD and 4x4 all the time and focus on the tires and go on to say they drive rwd on proper tires and can rock the world and they no one needs AWD.
As you said AWD makes it better/easier, it is not a replacement for good driving skills or proper equipment....but people are people and this is reddit.
The caveat with AWD is cost, complexity, and mileage. AWD costs more to vmbuy amd maintain, more can go wrong because it is more complex and it is harder on gas. These are perfectly valid reasons not to go with AWD if you dont want the added benefit it provides.
inferno686868@reddit
I only wanted AWD for the acceleration benefits
SuperDuperDann@reddit
Idk why no one talks about it but without awd in my area, CHP makes you have chains during storms. Even if you have proper winter tires. I’d get awd just to avoid having to get out and put chains on
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Yes, a very good point.
On my local mountain pass(not CA) when chains are required AWD are exempt even if they have summer racing slicks on. But a FWD with 4 studded snows would have to chain. It's ridiculous, and frankly I doubt the troopers would enforce it, but that is the law.
RickySlayer9@reddit
Awd is a weird middle ground. Worse off-road than 4wd, worse on road than RWD. If you’re trying to drive in garage conditions and light offroading, AWD is unbeatable.
blanthony80@reddit
If you want ultimate AWD get an Audi with Quattro.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Quattro is just a marketing term.
blanthony80@reddit
Yes, Audi version of AWD which is superior in every way. My A6 wouldn't slip or spin in any condition.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Again like Quattro Audi is just a marketing term. There's many different forms of AWD systems used by Audi and called Quattro, and many Audi are rebadge VWs.
The Audi "Crown Gear" center differential system your A6 likely has is not ideal in every way. It combined with the Audi nose heavy layout makes for significant understeer and is not fuel efficient.
blanthony80@reddit
I didn't care about fuel efficiency. By far the best AWD system I've ever had on a vehicle.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I'd say that depends on it's use. Performance driving no, snow, mud, etc. yes.
Pinkys_Revenge@reddit
We are car guys. Spinning the tires is fun to us.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
And spinning all 4 is 4 times the fun.
glasswings363@reddit
AWD with open differentials spins one wheel at a time you goof.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
AWD with locked differentials spins all four at a time you goof.
https://youtu.be/5qanlirrRWs?si=jxuCC5RDAXRjpYMV
Pinkys_Revenge@reddit
Only if you have enough power and can fully disable traction control… which is pretty rare.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I don't think it's as rare as you think, mine could almost do it stock and it's not a supercar or anything. Really just needed a bit more power and throttle response, it already had the traction control off option.
PerformerBrief5881@reddit
Not many car guys dont like the awd porsche 911 turbo, nissan gtr, lamborghini performante, audi r8, lancer evo or or wrx.
There is a reason they all use it, its better.
Ai-on@reddit
Can’t forget bmw xdrive. Putting xdrive on the m3 and m4 really changed the game. I honestly feel bad for you if you get a rwd bmw.
ApePositive@reddit
I legitimately think most of the posters here have not experimented thoroughly driving with different configurations in different conditions and are just spouting off
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Same, really I'd just call it cope.
PurpleSausage77@reddit
I like having the option to turn it off or pull a fuse to make it RWD. For drifting and other RWD shenanigans. Or just cruising on dry pavement there’s no reason to be putting power to all 4 wheels = more parasitic drivetrain loss, more fuel spent for no reason.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
As do I, sort of. What do you drive where that's an option, I can only think of a handful of cars where it is.
I don't need to pull a fuse, I have a button on my steering wheel.
PurpleSausage77@reddit
Obvious 4x4s aside can do it on dual motor Teslas (fuse) and maybe most other dual motor RWD based EV, newer BMW’s (button), 2012-2018 Lancers could be optioned with 4x4 (but FWD or AWD, interesting setup with a…CVT) etc.
For EVs it’s just for drifting or if bored, otherwise they are more efficient with more motors which turn in to generators (regen braking) so more energy generated (returned).
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Most people do not need its capabilities and will never meaningfully use it. Meanwhile it will cost them MPG and extra maintenance. If anything, most people overestimate it and erroneously claim to need it when they'd be better served by forgoing it.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes, the vast majority can get by without AWD"
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Which is why it cannot be underrated. That's my point.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
We can get by without AC, radios, power windows, etc. as well.
SkylineFTW97@reddit
But those are things average people actually use on a routine basis unlike AWD.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Ok, seat belts and air bags.
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Seat belts get used daily as well. And the benefits of airbags are much more tangible in daily usage than AWD. You're more likely to get hit by another car than get stuck in snow on a mountain pass. And unlike AWD, the airbags don't require you to match tires and keep closer track of tread depth or add a transfer case or differential with fluid that needs to be changed.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You crash daily?
I've never used an airbag, I use my AWD a lot.
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Don't be deliberately obtuse. Far more people will derive material benefit from airbags than AWD. And on top of not requiring maintenance unlike AWD, the risk/reward of airbags is much greater. Without AWD, you may have to spend a few minutes digging yourself out of a snow bank. Without airbags, you might suffer serious injuries or death that you wouldn't otherwise.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Without AWD you might get in a collision you'd have avoided with AWD. Is it not better to avoid the collision in the first place?
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Grasping at straws now. The situation you're talking about is far more niche than the reality that most people face.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Most people are shit drivers.
SkylineFTW97@reddit
But AWD is not a relevant factor in the driving environments most people are in. You're not throttling out of most near misses and AWD only benefits you on acceleration. Maneuvering out of the way of something would be better served with a car that's smaller, lighter, more nimble, and more communicative and by having better tires. And braking would also be better served by being smaller and lighter with better tires.
The bigger benefit to keeping idiots under control would be not putting massive screens in everything to reduce distractions and by improving visibility so more near misses can be spotted earlier.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I throttle out of a lot of near misses.
Smaller/lighter cars are more dangerous in a collision and weight isn't that big of a single factor in handling or braking.
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Either you're doing something niche or something really dumb then.
And weight is a huge factor in handling and braking. All else being equal, the lighter car will always perform better in both categories. Plus you were just talking about how avoiding the collision is more important. No airbags is fine for crash survivability, but low curb weight isn't?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Watching my mirrors is niche?
All else isn't equal, weight only matters as a ratio, most directly as a ratio to tire size.
No airbags, huh?
SkylineFTW97@reddit
There are multiple cases of testing lighter and heavier versions of the same platform of car. It absolutely matters. It can be diminished with extra power, but that's not always a feasible option. And a bigger, heavier car will still be less maneuverable overall. It's simple physics. It can be diminished with clever engineering, but never mitigated entirely.
And what kind of accidents are you routinely throttling away from? Maybe if you were on a motorcycle, I'd buy it, but for a car? Seems odd.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"Same platform of car" means same tires. What did I just say? The Veyron is a heavy car, you know what it has to offset that, huge tires and AWD.
"routinely" is a stretch, rear ended, merged into, t-boned. Accelerating out of a collision is just as viable as braking and steering. It's just less used as most drivers either don't think of it in the moment or don't drive a capable enough vehicle.
SkylineFTW97@reddit
Huge, heavy wheels and tires add a lot of rotational mass, the most performance taxing kind. You have to add even more power to offset the performance penalty from those. Plus the extra inertia from the AWD system. Hence why it needs 1000 HP. And it's nowhere near as maneuverable as other, lighter supercars. It's fast in a straight line, which is mostly about adding power and reducing drag. Not the same thing.
Most people are in traffic that prevents them from just throttling away from those types of collisions without putting them at risk of others. Does it have merits sometimes? Sure. But again, not what is gonna be typical.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Rotational mass is not the big deal most appear to think it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1-hH3nmyl8
Most people are sheep, they neither drive in a way that leaves them outs, nor see all the outs even when they are present.
No_Wash2524@reddit
Agreed 100%, I see people downplaying AWD all the time in here. Looks like lots of cope IMO.
derps-a-lot@reddit
Cope? Brother you can get a shitty RAV4 with AWD. This isn't some exclusive club.
No_Wash2524@reddit
Name checks out
bfrogsworstnightmare@reddit
Good snow tires don’t help as much when you have a steep driveway. I had good brand new winter tires on my Corolla the first year in my new house. I had a truck by the next winter and my wife a Rav4. Our vehicles struggled too much getting up the driveway.
underengineered@reddit
My truck has an AWD option between 2H and 4H. Its nice on rainy days as without a load in the bed it can spin the tires way too easily.
Strange_Age_5908@reddit
Your truck has 4WD my friend. I wouldn’t recommend driving in 4H on paved roads even if it’s raining. It’s not made for that reason. Lol
Snurgisdr@reddit
Different requirements. For the city driver who never encounters deep snow, it probably is pretty pointless. For the rural driver who needs to get moving before the plow comes, it's a different story.
Grineatingshit@reddit
Or, is it a differential story? 🤣
Suspicious-Nose3266@reddit
Fuel economy made better? Reliability/maintenance costs made better? Curb weight/handling made better?
No
No
No
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Handling, yes.
LazyLancer@reddit
Is AWD better in snow? Yes.
Is AWD necessary to have in a city when it snows? Most of the times no.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes, the vast majority can get by without AWD. "
LazyLancer@reddit
Well, you said “AWD makes everything better and is useful in far more conditions than snow”.
Unless you’re going off road, there’s little use of AWD within the limit of the rules in a city / on a highway.
Sure, AWD can accelerate faster. But do you normally accelerate beyond the limits of fwd/rwd?
Yes, AWD oversteers under throttle way less. But do you normally give it so much throttle that your rear steps away, outside or snow/ice? Also, modern cars have so annoying TC that even in an RWD it’s difficult to achieve.
People often mistake acceleration for overall stability. Well, the tricky thing is AWD has same braking performance and lateral grip in corners as fwd/rwd. It doesn’t make “everything better”.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
yes
fertile_gnome@reddit
In my experience, AWD is very effective.
It allows you to get stuck much farther away from home.
637_649@reddit
Yup. We hardly ever get snow, but if there's an AWD option in avehicle we're buying, we get it. You never know when it'll come in handy, whether it's mud, snow, or a heavy boat at a slippery boat ramp.
Druidicflow@reddit
I have technically driven on gravel and dirt, but not in my last two vehicles that I can recall, and the previous one only one time, parking in a field at my aunt’s funeral.
Jealous-Being-5742@reddit
Yeah that’s great and all but let’s talk about what’s even better. 4x4 with front and back lockers.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Better depends on conditions.
Jealous-Being-5742@reddit
That’s the best part. You can choose what and when to lock. Still want a wheel on the axle to spin if you lose traction? Don’t lock the axle. Deep gravel or mud or sand? 4 low lock it all. Heavy rain? 4 hi. Options for any environment.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Sure, it's best to have all the options, a 3 mode transfer case, 2WD - AWD - 4WD, with the option to lock the diffs or leave them open and use a brake based system.
But a system where your only option is 2WD or 4WD and open no ESC, or locked, or worse, locked all the time. Leaves a lot of middle ground where neither extreme is good, and AWD is better.
Jealous-Being-5742@reddit
Thats only true if you have an unbiased system. Most cars that advertise awd are not unbiased in one way or another.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That depends a lot on the bias and how it's done. A front based system that can only sent like 30% rear, yeah. Mine is rear biased and can go full 50/50 as needed.
Jealous-Being-5742@reddit
In snow you’ll want front biased. Sucks to be you I guess
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You might, I don't.
BorgsCube@reddit
if we could have awd vans and trucks and they were just as cheap as 4wd i would probably never get a 4wd again
when chevy express still made awd vans those things went fuckin everywhere
jrileyy229@reddit
How is AWD useful to the average driver in an average car in dry or wet conditions? You've really epitomized the misconception.
When's the last time you were driving in the rain and continually had tires spinning because you couldn't go up a slightly inclined road? Never. You get in your front or rear wheel drive car, you pull out of your driveway onto the road, adjust your windshield wipers, and don't even think for a second about getting stuck anywhere.
No, most people do not drive on gravel or dirt... And if they do... Again... It's not a traction limited situation. They're puttering up some gravel road to a camp site in a slow, controlled fashion... Not trying to shave tenths off their time against Colin McRae.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Accelerating for a gap in traffic making an unprotected left turn.
Define "slightly inclined", are you of the belief that all roads are only "slight inclined"? There's quite a few hilly roads in major cities that FWD cars struggle on when the road is wet. People that live in cities like San Francisco and Seattle can tell you all about it.
You've never seen a steep gravel driveway?
jrileyy229@reddit
If you're telling me that your average 160hp civic trying to merge onto the highway in the rain is spinning the front tires, then I'm telling you those tires are bald.
I live in a hilly city with a RWD car, at no point do I struggle going up a hill in the rain under normal driving conditions... Meaning I'm not trying to hook up 650hp to go up a hill in a city... I'm merely going from point A to point B, just like everyone else. Whoever is telling me they couldn't go up a public street in the rain in a FWD car in a normal driving fashion is again telling me they have bald tires.
VERY few people have a steep driveway that is composed of loose gravel. You can cherry pick one off examples any way you want, that does not support the general notion that AWD isn't necessary.
If you got 6" of snow last night, most people are not going out at 5am to try to get through 6" of snow... They're going to wait until the plow trucks have handled it... And if they are someone who needs to get to work no matter what, they're probably driving a 4x4 truck or SUV, not an Audi or Subaru car.
AWD maybe makes sense on just a few use cases.... Like you live in Central PA and you love to ski. You're not driving up the mountain on untreated roads in 6" of fresh snow... But you are still driving up roads on packed snow... But that's definitely not the average consumer buying AWD cars... They're buying them on the misconception that they're safer
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Where did I imply anything even close to that?
Then is isn't that hilly. - RWD does better in that regard due to weight transfer. - I had a RWD mini truck for a while though that couldn't do some hills. - And I've known many who've struggled with FWD. All with good tires.
jrileyy229@reddit
Nothing about weight transfer matters in the real world going from point A to point B for the 99% of use cases.
You can cherry pick maybe one or two crazy obscure roads that maybe some cars can't get up in the rain... But again, that is not the many... And I'll wager there is a route around it.
So you want to buy an AWD Subaru that gets considerably worse MPG so that occasionally in the rain you can get up one particular road instead of going to the next road over that maybe takes 2 minutes more?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
No, Subabrus suck.
jrileyy229@reddit
Okay... Any AWD system
Go to any of the cities you mentioned, and hundreds of thousands of people have a two wheel drive vehicle they use year round. I wonder how they survive
PoopSmith87@reddit
Everyone praises a well done 50/50 AWD... but a poorly done or poorly split AWD is a sad thing. Like some of the older Honda Ridgelines used to touch sand and immediately bury themselves like a scared ostrich. My cousin used to hang out with his XJ, a fishing pole, and a tow strap at our local beach on weekends. He'd offer to pull them back to pavement for half the price that the town contracted tower would charge (it was a $500 fee posted on a big sign) he'd make more doing that than he did at work all week.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Clever, I'd do that kind of thing when we get a winter storm.
There's a place for a rear bias AWD, but front based systems just suck.
Careless-Internet-63@reddit
I would say snow tires are more important than AWD but AWD is still important. I think it's more that people shouldn't make the mistake of thinking they'll be fine in the snow because they have AWD. AWD without proper snow tires is not going to be much better than two wheel drive in the snow. There are also a lot of people who aren't doing things where AWD would be important and would be able to get by just fine with snow tires on any car. I have been in situations where my car probably would've been stuck without AWD but I also drive in the mountains during the winter a lot which is not a use case most people have to think about
berg450@reddit
AWD helps you go, and marginally improves handling under acceleration. TIRES determine everything else: stopping, steering.
Best case is AWD + great tires for your use case.
The other consideration here is the vehicle itself, but that can’t be changed. A FWD Mini Cooper will do better on slick surfaces than a 4WD F150 with an empty bed.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes tires are very important,"
OGDREADLORD666@reddit
Dumbasses forget that just because AWD accelerates faster in winter doesn't mean it slows just as fast. False sense of confidence.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
It does actually.
OGDREADLORD666@reddit
Yeah when you're sliding on black ice?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
yes
OGDREADLORD666@reddit
Lmao buddy are you special?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I drive in the snow for a living.
otterland@reddit
Actually people like you are exactly why AWD is a liability. I've never had a car that could spin tires in the dry unless you count a manual truck and I decided to destroy the clutch.
I drive according to the conditions and live in the mid south. During snow month I crawl around at low speed with fresh AS tires and don't leave the house if there's ice. If there's heavy rain I stay off the freeway and adjust my speed accordingly.
Two wheel drive avoids the liability you're demonstrating quite loudly: hubris. Hubris puts you in the ditch.
AWD and some three peak tires can be a solid choice for the snow belt. But for the rest of us, it's more complexity to break and tire failures are expensive as hell.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I'm sorry you have such pathetic cars.
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
My RWD car with only snow tires and no traction control has pulled out my moms AWD Mazda from getting stuck in our driveway after a heavy snowfall. AWD is NOT needed for winter driving. Its not even really that great to begin with. Limited slip differential, RWD, weight, and snow tires are much better than AWD in the snow.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
" yes tires are very important, and yes, the vast majority can get by without AWD"
guyfromthepicture@reddit
Awd does not help in all situations. It only helps in the accelerating. The vast majority of people will benefit more from a lighter, more efficient vehicle than they would with two more drive wheels.
derps-a-lot@reddit
No, this is a response to the majority of drivers overestimating the capabilities of AWD and you're misinterpreting it.
Far too many people think AWD makes them on the road when it does nothing for braking or handling. Those are the people you see in the ditch during snowfall.
The reality is that proper snow tires will do more for people in those situations. Nobody is saying snow tires are better than AWD in all cases, they're trying to educate people about the importance of traction over acceleration.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes tires are very important"
derps-a-lot@reddit
Yes I am glad you called that out.
The point stands that when people are talking about tires vs AWD, they're trying to educate people about the importance of braking grip, not underestimating AWD capability.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
People almost never ask tires vs AWD. Someone brings up AWD without even mentioning tires and the entire crowd here strawmans with tire comments.
derps-a-lot@reddit
Yes that is the point. They're asking about AWD because they believe it solves a tire problem, likely because of marketing. They're not asking about the difference because they don't understand the value of grip vs. drivetrain.
revocer@reddit
IMHO, this sub has an accurate assessment of AWD, with differing opinions.
glasswings363@reddit
Nobody make fun of this YouTuber, he was kind enough to share a valuable lesson: a Subaru on stock all-seasons, road pressure, no socks or chains, is very good at getting stuck in not much snow.
https://youtu.be/o0mGPEqEEJc
billp97@reddit
If you live in more moderate climates where you only get snow a few times a year and its not normally that bad AWD is better. I live in eastern PA near philly. im not spending 1k on snow tires that i have to then pay to have mounted before a storm out or 2k+ for a wheel AND tire set for the two days a year it snows. Ive got an all wheel drive sedan with all seasons on it and it does fine where RWD and FWD cars struggle a bit. It depends on where you live
RHS1959@reddit
Both the cars i drive regularly (Subaru and a Toyota Venza) are AWD, and I don’t think about it unless I drive a 2WD and remember why I don’t want one.
glasswings363@reddit
Your Toyota has a different kind of AWD system than the Subaru and if you don't notice the difference you're not driving hard enough to need either of them.
RHS1959@reddit
I definitely notice a difference in the overall character of the Venza and my Baja. My point was that I’m accustomed to various AWD vehicles and I notice 2WD deficiencies in comparison when I have occasion to drive one. Obviously some 2WD are great, but for daily utility AWD is better.
RHS1959@reddit
I definitely notice a difference in the overall character of the Venza and my Baja. My point was that I’m accustomed to various AWD vehicles and I notice 2WD deficiencies in comparison when I have occasion to drive one. Obviously some 2WD are great, but for daily utility AWD is better.
Blazer323@reddit
There are different types of AWD and some are useless...
Subaru AWD is all mechanical, Haldex is half mechanical, electrical clutch assist for wheel spin, the rest are basically FWD and drags the rear until the TCM adds power after wheel spin had been detected. Those types are not helping in adverse conditions and usually the people spinning tires in the snow.
glasswings363@reddit
Subarus are actually pretty bad in fresh snow. They love to bog down (maybe it's the TC, maybe it's the drivers) and it's a pain in the butt to get them out with only two traction boards.
We don't have sand but I imagine it's similar.
And they're super easy to high-center.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
No they aren't, not in the context you appear to be implying, most Subaru are just their version of a Haldex.
MrNimbus33@reddit
I bought a newer model of my ftype convertible mainly to upgrade from rwd to awd for better dry road handling. The car doesn't even get driven in bad weather. I just feel safer in a car with so much torque with AWD. And I feel like I can use all of that car's power now.
mamny83@reddit
I dont mind awd but a true drivers car should be rwd.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Even if it's slower?
glasswings363@reddit
As someone who has daily driven a Miata in winter, 100% yes.
mamny83@reddit
Yes even if slower. S2000 is a great example of a drivers car. 911 gt3rs if you can afford it.
Heavy_Performer1007@reddit
Awd is gonna understeer like a motherfucker on the limit the same was fwd does. And that's with Subarus and audis that have torque vectoring. The cars that are fwd and sometimes spin the rear wheels for traction definitely aren't gonna be as fast as rwd cars at the limit.
Mamny is not wrong. Rwd is definitely faster than awd. Awd wins on the launch but rwd is gonna win the race because it oversteer is better than understeer.
subvolt99@reddit
i just like that my subaru has awd. that's it lol
glasswings363@reddit
The appeal of Subaru in a nutshell.
PugDriver@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRyS9_QYskk
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
If you really want Audi/quattro history vids you want this channel https://www.youtube.com/@bsport320
Martin Buchan really knows his shit and has a great channel.
PugDriver@reddit
Got to drive Audi 5000 quatro on simulated ice back in mid 80's.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
What's simulated ice?
PugDriver@reddit
Audi put together a small test track in Miami. Not sure what the ice consisted of, but you got to drive it with and without quatro engaged.
JH_DeepThoughts@reddit
Nobody disputes AWD, but the proper tire for the condition is far more important. I’d rather drive a RWD car with great snow tires in winter than an AWD car with summer tires (and have).
But I’d say you should just get AWD if you can as it’s option most people want when you sell.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes tires are very important"
ReptarSonOfGodzilla@reddit
I think it’s more of a proper tires first, then worry about AWD. People often are moving to snowy areas and think they need a new AWD car, when a set of tires is sufficient for most cases, especially in flat areas.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
"yes tires are very important"
whateveritisthey@reddit
Awd is so much fun. You dont really need it, and it does add extra cost and complexity.
Also they probably think all awd systems are the same.
They are not.
chillaxtion@reddit
‘The majority of non-all-wheel-drive vehicles have the ability to spin the tires on dry pavement’? When did we all suddenly start driving Ferraris?
In normal non high performance driving AWD is an irrelevant complication.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
You don't think your typical camry can spin them?
Normal people don't make unprotected left turns in the rain?
chillaxtion@reddit
I will 100% guarantee you I have not spun the tires in my Honda Civic ever. I drive like a regular person.
Maybe once I chirped a tire due to some bizarre combo like driving off a ferry on a metal deck at a steep angle.
Because I could, theoretically, chirp a tire it doesn’t mean I need a chirp avoidance system that adds weight, expense, and hurts MPG. It also makes the car less safe statistically because it adds a false sense of security until the brakes are applied.
Mr-Zappy@reddit
AWD doesn’t help you stop in slippery conditions. It helps you get going so you need to stop though, and that can be dangerous. Not having AWD keeps some people (without snow tires) safely stuck at home.
sc302@reddit
I haven’t driven a car with awd, but trucks and SUV’s
I have a fwd sedan I drive on a daily basis and I have a rwd play toy. I live in an area that gets snow and has sand on the beaches. I live in an area that has dirt roads and tar and chipped roads (hate hearing the chips bounce off the paint. I have been driving for over 30 years and put 200 to 800 miles a day for 10 of those years, I easily have over a million miles under my belt.
I have had the rear end kick out on me in trucks and large SUV’s when full time 4wd high was on in the snow/ice. 2 times.
I have had to power through hills turning traction control off with fwd and all weather tires in the snow. Very few times.
I will say this, Rwd isn’t good for beginners and people without experience. It doesn’t behave the way you think/you will over or under compensate for it when it wants to do something other than drive normal. Fwd is very predictable and most of the time you have to get out of the gas if it is sliding or you have to apply gas to go (sand sucks if you are stuck in a ton of it on a beach).
Awd is interesting, imo isn’t needed. If you are in a spin, you are along for the ride, you aren’t correcting your way out of it unless by some chance you close down enough to make a correction. It give a false sense of “I am safe because I have AWD”. It is still rubber on pavement or on ice or on a slippery surface. This thinking is bad. It’s ok and you won’t have to apply as much power as fwd to get up a hill and you might be able to get out of sand. I have seen plenty of awd cars (Subaru’s specifically) spin all wheels in the mud and not move because they have awd and can get through anything.
Awd is great and gives some advantages in daily driving, but a fwd car is good enough and can usually power through. Fwd is also extremely predictable and you can understand the dynamics faster when starting to drive. Rwd you have to understand that the rear is always wanting to come around on you and slight corrections to what you are doing is all you need…over correcting or not correcting will lead a mustang to a crowd or a ditch.
Every rwd video that you see where someone loses control of the car in dry weather because they are showing off can easily be fixed by hitting the clutch or throwing the car in neutral, every time, yet they continue to apply power or the wheels are torquing so hard and the tires are trying to grip the pavement to where it is fish tailing or bucking. Neutral would let the wheels work independently and settle the car. It has happened a lot to me but you only have under a second to react, you cant think.
I don’t usually post here, but this was an interesting topic to where I can shed my personal experience of all options.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This is mostly fair, but I think you give FWD too much credit, lift oversteer is a big problem with FWD.
sc302@reddit
It isn’t that big of a problem. It is only a problem if you are flooring it. In my es300h or Camry hybrid, I seldomly experience that (it happens on occasion with hard left turns). In my old Altima’s, I experience that a bit. The 2.5 S was far worse than the more powerful 3.5 SR. But a lot of that could be due to the traction control fixing and compensation.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
OK so you don't know what lift oversteer is, it has nothing to do with flooring it. You might think I'm talking about torque steer, which yeah, is an issue with FWD but cars these days have gotten good at eliminating it.
Lift oversteer happens when you lift off the throttle, the slowing causes the weight to transfer forward. The already light rear of a FWD gets lighter and starts to slide.
sc302@reddit
I was thinking more of the lines the front end is lifting causing the weight of the car to go to the rear (normal acceleration physics) causing a loss of traction due to that weight shift. Oversteer is when the cars front end essentially plows through a turn.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
That's understeer, oversteer is when the rear comes out. It's easier to think of if you replace steer with rotation. The rotation of the car around it's vertical axis. If the car goes straight, then it's under rotating, if the rear comes out, it's over rotating.
Pineydude@reddit
AWD is best for regular conditions, wet roads, patchy snow. 4WD is better for deep snow, especially with hills and turns. In either case the tires you use will have a major impact on traction.
ms_merry@reddit
That’s a specific personality that goes years being annoyed thinking about an anon comment on Reddit. I’m impressed.
ms_merry@reddit
No we don’t underestimate. It’s unnecessary.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
On most cars the AWD systems don't even work correctly.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
wow that "test" is fake as fuck.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
What fake like it was generated by AI? Do you not see how the test is exactly the same for all the cars? Or did you just see the title and think it was biased toward Subaru. It didn't include electric cars because they weren't around back then but they also have really good traction control
Here's another test on rollers by a different agency that has the same results https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wX1VezHjzQ0&pp=ygUdU3ViYXJ1IGF3ZCBjb21wYXJpc29uIGluY2xpbmU%3D
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
To the limited extent there was any testing going on in that video it was a tire test, not an AWD comparison test. With every vehicle the tires where spinning, that's what AWD does, so the AWD worked.
But even then, you can see that with the ones that didn't make it, they stopped half way up, which they somehow managed to get to, then gave it the beans to spin the tires.
Nothing was controlled for, thus it was complete BS.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
AWD is not about wheels spinning together, it's about them getting the correct amount of torque to prevent loss of static friction and the ability to regain it.
slingshotcoyote@reddit
I’ve had AWD and it’s nothing compared to 4WD. Only good on already cleared roads.
demdareting@reddit
My old driving instructor had a great comment about AWD/4 wheel drive.
The problem with 4wd/AWD is it will get you deeper into the ditch.
The laws of physics do not change. If AWD is that good then everyone would buy it. The trade off in complexity, maintenance and durability vs a simple fwd or rwd is not worth the need to accelerate.
All AWD/4WD will do is give you better acceleration. I have driven 1000s of kms on the race track, driving, coaching and training. While 4wd is great for off line acceleration and initial bite it is no better and some cases worse then a car driven by one axle. Imho
One_Evil_Monkey@reddit
And knowing how to drive without such stuff as traction control, full time 4wd or AWD is an actual thing.
It's no different than people that have 4wd trucks that think they can just plow over or through whatever.
I think too many people think "AWD" and it's some magical cure all for shitty driving, lack of skills, lack of knowledge, and general dumbassery.
LeckereKartoffeln@reddit
Are you an AWD salesman? Lmao
I'd avoid it at all costs unless you like more repair costs on average
Beneficial_Leg4691@reddit
I drive 25k miles a year and I drive a 2whl drive truck. There is no snow in my world. I have no need for awd/ 4wd. My wife has an outback and absolutely had to have it as she is terrified of driving in the rain. She was been in multiple wrecks driving or passenger in other cars in the rain.
Does she need the awd no not really its a peace of mind thing and there is no doubt it helps in many ways. We have a family ranch and muddy road is handy with awd.
Knowing how to drive in conditions is key Awd makes it easier and a little safer.
The additional price to get on many vehicles is a deterrent. Also in south Texas most brands that offer optional AWD dont stock many cars on the lot with it. I used to sell Cadillacs and less than 25% of the cars we stocked/ sold had awd.
WhatsTheWerd@reddit
My electric jelly bean does 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, thank you all wheel drive.
I’ve had it all, FWD, RWD, 4x4, AWD. In my opinion, I’ll never own a car without it again.
Life_is_strange01@reddit
Like you said, for most people's driving circumstances, AWD is a luxury feature rather than neccesity.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Luxury and safety.
that_dutch_dude@reddit
ignoring the whole snow situation:
unless you actually do proper off road stuff (an unpaved driveway does NOT count) AWD/4x4 or whatever is completly and utterly a waste of money and fuel and you are far better off to spend the money on better tires. its been proven time and time again that a fwd or rwd car with good tires will beat out a awd with crap tires every single time.
the issue is that -most- people with awd/4x4 (not all, but most) use having awd as an excuse to buy the crappiest tires on the planet and refusing to aknowlege the fact that awd does nothing when you need to brake.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
This claim only applies to snow.
Heavy_Performer1007@reddit
Hi heavy gap I'm heavy preformer
Longjumping_Cow_5856@reddit
Certainly seems that way to me too.
DFLDrew@reddit
If you are slipping tires on dry pavement you are driving way too hard. Hell, if you are driving on wet pavement and slip tires, you are driving way too hard.
The reality is that for street applications, outside of snow and some other rare cases (like a tight uphill turn with sand blown on road) AWD shouldn’t be necessary unless you’re driving needlessly aggressively.
Heyoteyo@reddit
I think a lot of people also miss the point when it comes to location. We all need snow tires. Except we don’t all live in Wisconsin… Where I’m at we have snow, but most years it’s like a handful of days where it kind of sucks driving and the next day the roads are clear. It’s only really worth it if money isn’t a factor. AWD is useful all year and super nice for those days where it is snowing.
Engineered_disdain@reddit
Fwd, rwd, awd all provide different handling and control characteristics to the driving experience.
Drivers will gravitate towards their preferred method of getting power to the ground.
Same with front engine, mid engine, rear engine cars. They all provide different driving dynamics.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Are you trying to claim that none are better than others?
Engineered_disdain@reddit
The entire argument is subjective and based on the individual drivers habits and application.Its a comparative rock paper scissors situation.
Awd has better resistance to spin on dry pavement. But if you like breaking traction, having awd is a terrible choice.
Rwd is great for drifting and power slides, fwd is terrible
Fwd is great for fuel economy and resistance to slides because you can use your power to regain control of the vehicle compared to awd or rwd.
Everyone has a preference on how they want their vehicle to react when they drive.
Late-Button-6559@reddit
No idea.
But my country (Australia) over-estimates it - as relates to driving on public, sealed roads, by average people.
It’s a rare driver here who can drive with enough skill to EVER benefit from AWD grip.
We have low speed limits, low driver skill, low attention, high panic reactions, high-grip surfaces and lack of dodgy weather.
KostyaFedot@reddit
2000 or so. My ex client, ex co worker moved to Finland. I'm where very frequent for job.
One evening I got all grosseries and drinks to party at his place.
We drove on inclined driveway . Minivan stopped. I went out and fallen on black ice. Minivan was with special , spikes free, winter tires. Not cheap ones. Later on after major snowstorm we went to test his new, small, RWD Lexus. He drove it on empty highway and tried to spin it with all electronics engaged.. Lexus was stable. Prior to Helsinki he was living in Murmansk.
I sped most of my life in true white north countries as well.
It doesn't look like you have similar, real life experience.
Yes, Lada Niva was first on the green light . So what... The only real reason for 4×4 I had in decades is pulling boat from water on boat lunch ramp. Once it was ice on Upper Niagara during steelhead season. Another our local lake where they dumped gravel.
Empty_Art2176@reddit
Well, I live in WNY. We regularly get more snow each winter than any other area in the country. Its called the Lake Erie snow belt for a reason.
We also live in a very hilly area, look at topo maps, we are in the foothills of the Allegheny mountains.
My wife and I, as well as family and friends have, or have had every imaginable vehicle. I currently have 8 cars which are road worthy. We USED to use snow tires, Mastercraft Glacier Trex, and their predecessor, Artic Trec....or something like that, on our AWD vehicles. These have included, Nissan Rouge, Cadillac XT5, Subaru Forster and Subaru Outback.
First of all, many modern (post 2020) AWD vehicles suck. Many of these cars go into limp mode with the tiniest amount of strain, so dont get stuck! This can be observed on Matt's Off Road Rescue youtube channel, where Matt makes a fortune pulling new SUVs out of 2 inches of sand or snow. He explains very well why these cars suck now. And ive seen it with my wifes Cadillac. The Subarus are a 2021 and 2023 and are both fine, as well as the 2013 Rouge.
Anyways, with the dedicated snow tires, these vehicles have done great. FAR better than front wheel drive, or rear wheel drive, and often better than my 2017 Silverado 2500HD. But last year the Rouge that I was driving needed tires. I was feeling cheap, and I've been driving in this snow sinse 1987. So I just bought some Mastercraft Stratus All Season tires. Guess what? They preformed identically to the dedicated snow tires on the Rouge. Then my wife put some on her Cadillac, with the same results. We have a front wheel drive Toyota Camary we use for our business. It MUST have snow tires to get around....period. And a good friend of ours has a front wheel drive Subaru, which I honestly didnt know they even made. But he cannot get around well without snow tires on the front. Not to mention my almost 40 years of mostly front wheel drive cars.
So, with extensive experience, I can say that AWD is absolutely better than front or rear wheel drive in many situations. And snow tires make almost zero difference in regular driving conditions. Which around here can be a foot of snow on the roads. It can snow 2+ inches an hour here, and we are very rural, so the snowplows are always running behind. I honestly will never own a front wheel drive car again. For daily driving its AWD or 4x4 for us.
ZaphodG@reddit
I’ve owned condos at ski resorts since 1993. I drive a turbo Outback with Nokians on closeout Tire Rack alloy wheels in the winter. AWD and some ground clearance is a convenience. I don’t have to shovel to get out of my parking spot on a powder day. I can park wherever I want and not have to worry about getting myself out afterwards. I can get out of my driveway at my primary residence and up the unplowed private lane. I can bull my way through the snowbank at the street with a few tries.
I learned to drive in RWD cars with summer tires so I have the winter driving skills to get around just fine with a FWD car and stock all season tires. I had a Maverick with Sears Guardsman radials in college in Vermont. I took a Fox body Mustang with Michelin TRX tires skiing every weekend. I can afford AWD and snow tires. It’s better. I have a much better control envelope. It’s like driving on dry roads most of the time. Plus the convenience.
99% of the time, I don’t drive on anything more extreme than my gravel private lane. My cars occasionally see deep unplowed snow but that is very infrequent.
doc_55lk@reddit
Nobody says awd is bad, just that it's not the most important thing in a low grip situation. Tires and skill are. AWD isn't gonna do jack shit if you don't have proper control over your inputs.
Also, most people aren't putting their foot down enough to ever reach the limits of their tires off the line so that whole argument about how AWD helps off the line kinda falls flat tbh. Even still, modern traction control systems are VERY good at mitigating that slip anyway so the most you'd ever get is just a little chirp of the tires before the car cuts power to maintain grip. Sure, there are some exceptions, but most people in most driving scenarios aren't driving those types of cars.
If anything I think you're underestimating RWD/FWD cars with your post tbh.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
I don't think it's possible to underestimate FWD, as it's the lowest.
doc_55lk@reddit
By saying "non AWD cars" you do put FWD in the spotlight too.
Practical_Taro5656@reddit
The fact remains that in most situations, the tires are the limiting factor, not how many wheels are driven. This is an old video, but it's relevant here.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
Again, like I said it only focuses on snow.
Practical_Taro5656@reddit
You said "AWD makes everything better" and that's not true. It weighs more, and will make stopping distances longer as a result. In some implementations, it makes a car handle worse as well as a result of the extra weight. Finally, it's much more complex, and requires additional cost in tires (if one needs a replacement they all need a replacement) and maintenance.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
So does having a passenger, so always drive alone.
The tires thing depends on the vehicle and is not true for the vast majority.
eoan_an@reddit
Awd is not better in all situations. This mindset causes accident because people take chances they shouldn't be taking.
Awd runs worse, brakes worse, and is less fuel efficient.
Accelerating in snow is the only advantage of awd.
And you also miss the part where awd isn't even awd in most vehicle: it's fwd until those front tires lose grip.
To see the difference between awd and fwd, watch rally racing: the awd only gain in the snow. They don't even have an advantage off road.
You may not like what I say but people crash because they patently overestimate awd.
jules083@reddit
Let's be honest, 75% of this sub, and reddit in general, only knows to answer every question with 'buy a Toyota corolla'.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit (OP)
LMFAO
jbot14@reddit
This message brought to you by big AWD.
Dedward5@reddit
AWD is a popular target for the “real 4x4” crew, the “you need to learn about tyres crew” and the “I hate your SUV where have all the wagons gone / buy a minivan” crew
As ever, the Internet is full of people who are experts in other peoples choices.
AwarenessGreat282@reddit
It's not that anyone wants to downplay AWD but not over play its importance. I have owned twelve vehicles and only three were rwd and they were when I lived in Cali. AWD/4wd is great in offroad and "spirited" driving. Helps on pavement as well as loose surfaces. It's just that most people don't need that just to get to work or the grocery store. And for snow, the vast majority think it's the "end-all, be all " solution. They have AWD so they can completely ignore the tires and their condition. That's why people push proper tires first.
Duukt@reddit
Overall I think it's pretty well 'estimated'. It's great for traction when driving over snow and can pull out of a snowed in/muddy spot, all other factors being equal.
It however fails like every other drivetrain when it comes to braking and we've seen many people mention it on this sub.
PowerSpool@reddit
Lmfao no its just the obvious pick. Theres nothing that needs to be said about the drivetrain that almost half of American drivers have on their vehicles.
Actually half might be false nowadays I believe they are outselling FWD and obviously RWD.
Either way you wanna do xyz in the snow or you have shit roads the chance of someone actually saying "but but but snow tires are fine on fwd" and not getting downvote raped is low lol.
Hungry-Job-3198@reddit
I agree that there is a lot of truth in your comment. Though not all awd are created equal. More than half my life was spent in the PNW driving in a lot of wet, ice, snow. Having good all seasons for the majority of weather on awd, fwd and rwd and you can handle the far majority of weather. With snow tires they all handle winter pretty well. Obviously rwd can be a bit tricky depending on the vehicle.
So yes awd offers some reassurance. But not so much that people think or talk about it to much. As you have stated.
Inside_Mouse_1750@reddit
On gravel roads AWD is great.. hence the Subarus in NZ.