WestMarine going down?
Posted by FairSeafarer@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 150 comments
https://www.newsdirectory3.com/west-marine-prepares-for-chapter-11-bankruptcy-to-restructure-debt/#gsc.tab=0
What do you guys think?
A more competitive market?
Consumer trust issues?
Retail model problem?
All of it? Something else?
Dear_Poem3097@reddit
Private equity ruins everything. That’s the business plan and part of the enshitification of the country.
Glenbard@reddit
They stopped stocking a lot of the niche parts and components I used to buy there requiring you to order them and wait weeks… unless you’re lucky enough to find the “last one they have left at the store” and instead carry expensive clothing I don’t have room for on my boat and expensive systems people only upgrade once every decade or more… they stopped being a true chandlery and started being a boutique for the wealthy… except the wealthy don’t shop there…
Nausicaaah@reddit
Typical West Marine floorspace ratio:
40%: clothing
40%: fishing gear
20%: boating stuff
Dear_Poem3097@reddit
Our store got rid of the clothing and put in much more actual boat stuff. Actually having things on the shelves has gone in waves over the years.
MaybeFiction@reddit
I've always treated West Marine as the same kind of shop as Radio Shack or Tandy Leather, a specialty shop that has "pieces parts" and components for mobile/marine electrical, fiberglass, and some other marine-adjacent stuff. Mostly fiberglass and crimp connectors frankly, and a little more now that I have a sailboat and not just RVs and kayaks.
But just like radio shack, it's probably the case that those things I value it for aren't enough revenue to keep the lights on. I don't begrudge them trying to pay the bills with Helly Hanson making them into just another clothing shop for the wealthy, I also have to sometimes make changes to how I run my business in favor of sustainable revenue. But I'm still new enough to the marine world that I'm not sure I'm ready to not have WM.
Amazon is really what's killing them, but I'm beyond sick of Amazon. The main problem with Amazon is quality control. I don't want to wait three days for a part to arrive and then have to drive to the UPS store twice a month to return all the crap that didn't work or wasn't quite right because it was measured in Chinese inches and was too small (this is an actual thing).
If Amazon weren't turning into Temu I'd be less concerned about it but society needs slightly more expensive stores with more reliable quality of goods. If West isn't that anymore, what is?
roger_cw@reddit
Fisheries Supply is a great alternative to West Marine.
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
You are right, I don't know how many times I ordered boat parts off of amazon. I mean, we ordered the engine and the pump replacement for our 40gl/hr water maker... That would have been impossible just 5 years ago. You could get that only in a weird specialty shop that sold only pumps and small engines OR the place where they sell the watermakers OR the chandlery. At least they were the real deal from a, American seller, not a cheap knock off. But I mean... I'm kinda in for saving 300$, like, always...
But I wholeheartedly agree: we need more quality control. It's awful for some stuff.
Land_of_smiles@reddit
Amazing has been temu for a decade
MaybeFiction@reddit
It depends on the category to some degree. But at this point I am really hesitant to use Amazon for anything where quality can be highly variable.
And you're probably right but I just feel strongly that it's been getting gradually worse. It went from being my go-to to being my last resort, but boy is it common for me to run out of alternatives. Same with Walmart and other big boxes for in person retail. I always try to find a specialty shop but there are fewer and fewer. And really, west marine is already closer to the Walmart or Lowe's than to the local shop I would rather be at if only they were easier to find in certain areas. I have to admit that often I end up in the big box just for lack of local knowledge, not a preference.
cuisinart-hatrack@reddit
I miss living in Seattle. My office was a couple blocks from Fisheries Supply. So convenient to gather supplies on my lunch hour. Boat Owners’ Warehouse in Stuart, FL is good. They have excellent customer service and parts availability. I’ve called them with a list of parts on my way down the ICW and when I arrived a few days later they had everything I needed.
Nausicaaah@reddit
I'm.. actually in Stuart right now, lol.
acme_restorations@reddit
Seattle Marine & Fishing Supply over just past Fisherman’s Terminal is a good one too.
Big_Relative8784@reddit
Yeah and those Yeti coolers. Very nice, absurdly expensive, and they take up a lot of floor space without increasing inventory significantly. The place looks full...sort of
Dear_Poem3097@reddit
It takes forever, if ever, for it to arrive at the store. It used to be quick. And the Comercial discount has gotten smaller and smaller.
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
Yes the clothing!
And yes, they cater to the riches... Sailing and boating is also for the regular people. In fact, I think they represent the bulk of the clients.
I think the retail model of those big empty store with no soul is catching up to them. No more chandlery vibes in there..
SphyrnaLightmaker@reddit
Interesting! I’ve been fortunate to have the opposite experience. Every time I’ve needed some random part or fitting, my local shop has had it in-stock.
Glenbard@reddit
I usually end up hitting the one on New Haven Avenue in Melbourne (maybe I shouldn’t call them out by name… I’ll delete if need be)… it’s in very close proximity to where I store my boat when I’m in project mode and need a chandlery close by. It seemed to be a somewhat slow shift… they’d have 7-8 of something… then 5…. Then I’d buy it and they’d tell me “you got the last one.” And then it just wouldn’t be in stock anymore… mostly fittings, seals, particular stainless bolts, nuts, bits, and bobs… the stuff you always need because it’s always being worn out…
But hey, if I want a $200 pair of sunglasses or some overpriced Pelagic Mako shorts or something stupid like that… they have multiple pairs in multiple colors for me to choose from….
Might be the location. That part of Florida (Cocoa, Rockledge, Melbourne) was pretty rural and lower to middle-class when I was growing up… It has seen a boom of industry (mostly military industrial and aviation) and a lot more tourism… A lot of businesses that had stuff for normal people have shifted to high end.
I don’t live there anymore but travel every year to two years for work… mostly in Europe… and my parents live there still (and they are great at looking after my boat)… so I get to see stark differences when I return that they might not see as they are incremental.
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
Because lifestyle stores are WAY more profitable than an actual boat parts store.
stubobarker@reddit
It appears that isn’t the case. More profitable doesn’t mean you file chapter 11
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
If they stuck with boat parts they would have filed chapter 11 20 years ago.
MaybeFiction@reddit
It fits together for me.
Original business model isn't working well. You always try a pivot or supplement before going to radical measures like bankruptcy. I understand not liking it, but I don't understand how people don't see it as rational.
Especially when you're in retail space near the coast, your biggest expense is going to be rent/space, so before you can focus on your mission of delivering obscure boat parts quickly, you need to come up with $20k a month in gross profit for rent. What's gonna get you there faster, 2000 miscellaneous boat parts, or 200 Helly Hanson outfits?
SphyrnaLightmaker@reddit
Definitely interesting, as I’m in a VERY similar demographic area (Military, aviation, industrial, in that order lol).
I’ve needed a dozen or so different things this year from blocks, to through hulls, to plumbing connections (redoing my bilge pump) and I’ve been fortunate to find everything in stock.
Though they do also have the insultingly over priced clothing as well lol.
MaybeFiction@reddit
The local WM near my boat right now often tells me that the thing I need is at the larger one just over the bridge. This seems rational enough to me and I can't hold it against them. Just over the bridge, even with the toll, is still closer than waiting three days for Amazon's product to arrive and turn out to be Temu crap.
ReelNerdyinFl@reddit
This matches - my local store recommends I call/visit the Marine Trading Post store about 2 miles away when I ask for most parts. It’s not bright white and pretty like West Marine, it’s a bit dirty but the stock is great and prices are fair.
Spiritual-Junket1817@reddit
One of west Marine’s problems for years has been lack of boaters working in the stores. I used to be able to go into a store with a project list and questions and walk out with the correct product and a plan to tackle the projects. Now I just get a blank stare or the associate starts looking on the internet. If you look at the competitors they have hired many of the seasoned staff away from West. Small stores have short open hours and are single staffed which is poor customer service. Paulee Day (CEO) is a bright person and can hopefully turn this around. She inherited a mess!
YouWillHaveThat@reddit
I would add to the comments others have already made here:
(Generalization warning. Yes, there are exceptions. But exceptions won't keep your business open.)
The group of people who work on their own boats is shrinking.
This used to be the middle class. People who could afford the boat if they put a little sweat into it.
But now you either can't afford a boat at all, or you are rich enough to just pay the marina to do the work. (Or just buy a new boat every 10 years.)
Hell, you can see it at the marinas. There are more and more places that won't allow you to work on your own boat at the dock or even have a 25+ year old boat the needs worked on.
The retail boat part store is disappearing because the retail boat part store customers are disappearing.
zoinkability@reddit
I wish I could upvote this more. The hollowing out of the middle class is having big effects on the sailing industry.
Electronic_Sky_207@reddit
West Marine was bought by private equity during the pandemic. PE often pushes a company to expand too fast in order to maximize profits (putting your local mom and pops out of business) then files chapter 11 to get out of debt/bad investments (low performing stores in this case.)
Your local West Marine may close, but the business model is working exactly how it was designed to.
porscheaudi2@reddit
This! Plus the fat dividends PE firms pay themselves before declaring bankruptcy and screwing everyone
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
They usually can't as per their loan agreement and for a long while after the leveraged buyout. Otherwise, why would the banker lend in the first place?!
Knoxes@reddit
They don't pay "dividends". They pay interest on investment loans. And "professional fees". If they're either reasonably leveraged or managed well, then the working capital bank does well along with the PE investors.
Brilliant_Ice84@reddit
Yeah, that’s literally the whole point. I cannot fathom how this should ever be legal.
j_andrew_h@reddit
PE also loads the debt of the acquisition onto the company so a profitable company suddenly has a ton of debt. PE is out of control in this country and needs to be regulated or ended in my opinion.
OshunBlu@reddit
Bummer that corporate deregulation is all the rage right now.
SphyrnaLightmaker@reddit
Turns out uneducated voters are easily manipulated into voting against their own interests…
MaybeFiction@reddit
And being uneducated is trending. School systems are being defunded in the name of tax cuts and "family choice" both of which are easier things to campaign for than against. Resentment of the educated is only increasing. Promoting trades over college is beyond a meme, it's now culturally pushed as bad parenting in many circles and especially churches to want your kid to get a degree.
CCCCLo0oo0ooo0@reddit
The fact that college costs the same as what was not that long ago the cost of a starter home is a major problem. College budgets have become over blown with wildly excessive administration, sports stadiums, etc.
MaybeFiction@reddit
Absolutely. I haven't seen the phrase as much lately, but seeing "luxury student apartments" on a billboard felt like a significant wtf moment for me.
But also, I got a law degree at a state school for less per year than most private undergraduate programs. Better value options do exist.
5x4j7h3@reddit
They leverage the company as much as possible. Take the equity from all the new loans to pay themselves or reinvest in other ventures, then when the company is fully leveraged, file bankruptcy so they can keep the proceeds from the loans they just opened. I wish we could do that as personal entities.
Rare-Abalone3792@reddit
Regulate business? In America? LOL!
day_tryppin@reddit
This! PE are vampires (or leaches) that lard up businesses with unsustainable debt to generate a “profit” for the investment group.
twrodriguez@reddit
PE literally ruins everything it touches
TomSelleckPI@reddit
Its Cancer in financial form.
boatslut@reddit
Except for the wallets of the I-bankers & their fund members🤔 It may suck for everyone else but like another post said, "people love to vote against their (real) own interests"
RegattaTimer@reddit
They don't really stock things I would want at prices that I would consider paying. West System epoxy is the best thing I've ever bought there. Their prices are most merchandise is verging on insulting.
tonguejack-a-shitbox@reddit
I've made 5 trips to the West Marine near where we dock our boat in the last 3 months. Every single time they either didn't have what we needed, or were considerably higher priced than Amazon. I went just a few days ago to get a standard 1.25" raw water hose and they didn't have it. This store is located in one of the bigger pleasure boat areas of the midwest and this hose size is standard in thousands of boats in the area. It's not like a niche item that wasn't in stock, it's a necessity.
I keep on going back just hoping and praying they will have the pretty basic supplies I need for convenience purposes, but they never do.
night0wl@reddit
Just another private equity take-out scam...heads they win (renegotiate leases against weaker landllords, wipe out their debt used to take it private and issue dividend), tails you lose (close down the place and liquidate everything because assets are worth more than the sum of their parts)
Technoshipog@reddit
The whole marine industry. Have you tried to buy a simple rope before, and you hit the hardware store and it’s 50% of the price?
I had a friend buy a motor last week. The motor cost 3k. They air freighted it over the Puget Sound. Systematic decisions on the micro scale just show there could be larger issues within.
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
I bought dyneema from the commercial climbing industry with same specifications than sailing and that rope is actually subjected to harder standard testing because of humans hanging from it at height. Much less expensive, surprisingly. Or not surprisingly.
somedude510@reddit
Good. They deserve it. Surprised it took so long.
walnut_creek@reddit
This is the PE business model in action. Overpay for a company (hey, a third party gave us a blank check), strip as much cash and borrowing capacity as possible over a decade or less, and when the PE firm has sucked most of the liquid assets out, it's time to either sell to another PE or enter bankruptcy to get rid of those pesky loan payments. I don't know their lender's terms for the 2021 purchase, but the current owners must realize that the next interest rate adjustment is north, not south.
I feel bad for the employees, many of whom are older semi-retired dudes who work there largely for the benefits. I imagine benefit costs will go under the microscope now, but hopefully not the chopping block.
Final rant- their current prices for basics like hose clamps, fuses, and wire are insane. I don't need to spend $10.50 on a non-stainless hose clamp when the auto parts store or Lowes has the same one for $2.00.
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
I think it's about time anything sailing related is more expensive just because it's sailing related, like hose-clamps, fuses and wire. It's ridiculous.
I love how disruptive SEAFLO has been in that regard. Pumps and fans. And they don't disappoint. You buy them for a fraction of the price and they work just as well as a fancy noisy italian pump, just without the noise.
But, for the PE thing. I think private equity is an easy target here. Most leveraged buyouts work. When PE works, nobody notices and that's most of the time. Otherwise, bankers would not get into the dance. When it fails there are layoffs, bankrupcies and headlines. So, perception is skewed.
walnut_creek@reddit
I somewhat agree. Plenty of PE deals work fine. The issue I see is that when a major company gets their teat in a wringer, there’s often a PE firm involved. And then you have the bankruptcies that come from poor management , market shifts, etc. But it seems like it’s always the debt burden, no?
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
Well, sometimes, big assumptions are drawn on return and those structures are frail and more subject to going south when the market shifts. Retail is especially vulnerable. That's half the story I guess.
geraldz@reddit
I ordered 2 gallons of bottom paint from West Marine on sale at $400 each. The arrived to the store damaged/leaking. So they had to reorder for me. That probably did it.
kantank-r-us@reddit
Going to West Marine for boat components is like going to McDonalds for food. It would have to be a last resort for me personally. Local shops have better inventory, prices and more knowledgeable employees.
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
I went in to a West to buy 200ft of anchor chain. A fairly large purchase, by my standards anyway. I thought they'd maybe strike me a bit of a deal, because I know Defender are 50% cheaper for this, and I know the Pro price is similar.
But, no, the ancient member of staff who 'helped' me was very dismissive, saying nobody needs more than 40ft of chain, my boat would sail better without all that weight up front, etc. It was very strange, he was actively trying to persuade me to spend less money. And he knew nothing about me, my boat, or what I do with it. I found it pretty patronising tbh.
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
I was shocked to discover west was cheaper on chain than defender by the time i paid for shipping.
Guy I know was a manager at west marine for 25 years and quit last year. Said they wouldn’t allow him to properly staff his store and controlled his inventory to a point of frustration. “It was a great place to work.” Is what he said.
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
Our plan was to sail in to New London and pick up the chain straight from Defender. Otherwise, as you say, the savings vs West disappear on shipping.
However we've had a quote from a smaller independent place which comfortably beats both of them. May turn out to be rubbish, but most anchor chain seems to be these days anyway.
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
It’s been a while since I purchased my chain but west did confirm the galvanizing spec prior to my purchase. Does that mean anything? Who knows, so far so good.
I do trust west marine from the perspective of not selling garbage. It may be grossly overpriced, but they don’t seem to be in the business of undermining their brand with inferior products.
Defenders scratch and dent was awesome when it was online!!!!
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
The chani getting is half the price of West. Maybe it will only last half the time 🤷
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
It’s not the chain as much as it is the galvanizing specification / process.
I was buying 300’ of 3/8” and didn’t want to buy it again in a few years.
Was more concerned with value than upfront cost. Hardware store chain will not last when constantly exposed to salt spray and immersion.
This unfortunately seems to be a case of getting what you paid for in most regions. Expensive chain doesn’t guarantee its quality but cheap chain certainly won’t be the same galvanizing spec as quality Maine chain produced for that purpose.
Maybe you found a loophole but shipping alone is $$$$. Thats why west is able to sell it competitively via ship to store / freight from disruption chain.
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
You're preaching to the converted 😁 West and Defender both sell 144 micron galvanised chain. The stuff I'm going for (delivered to the boat at a total cost half that of West) is from a marine supply company, not a hardware shop, but they weren't able to supply a galv spec, which was a bit annoying.
I've just spent a large amount of money on the boat on other things, and need to keep the cash flow in check, so I figured it was worth a punt. I'll be heading back to the UK next year and I can get chain much cheaper there (we don't have steel tariffs!)
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
Maybe you will get lucky!
My chain was purchased pre tariff escalation
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
Maybe! I need something right now to get me through the next twelve months. After that I can reassess.
The new chain is cheap enough that I was able to buy a generous length, so if it does start to go bad, I can cut the end off a few times...
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
Sail to Asia and have the chain galvanized when you get there!
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
I've had a chain re galvanised once before... It came back significantly shinier but less bendy...
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
I had one done by a huge facility that charged by the pound. They do industrial work in large volumes. I lasted forever. Finding a place is hard and I had to wait in a line of trucks with the chain in my bed for almost 12 hours. They were first come first serve. I’m not sure what spec was but I was lead to them because they did custom trailers for a local manufacturer. It lasted forever. Sold with my last boat as it was too small for next boat.
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
Oh yes this galvanising was next level. But they didn't have a spinner so dozens of links were fused together, sometimes in groups that were a couple of feet long. I ended up putting a block of wood next to the windlass, so that I could clobber it as it came up. After a few uses it began to run reasonably well.
MaybeFiction@reddit
How often are you replacing anchor chains, and why?
I'm still in pre-launch checks unfortunately but one of them was pulling out the anchor. I've got more than 150 feet of chain, galvanized I think, and it appears to be in good condition. I also have three anchors and no clue (yet) of the correct way to use the other two. I'd like to at least figure out the correct rope or rope/chain combo to use for them. I've also got a mysterious extra hole into my anchor locker that makes little sense to me.
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
You replace it when it's too worn to safely use, by which point it's also going to be shedding rust and making a real mess of your boat.
The time interval mostly depends on how much use it's had. I live aboard my boat full time, and I'm at anchor essentially 24/7. It's rare to get more than three years out of a chain when used as heavily as this.
The 'how to anchor' question will depend on who you ask. I leaned to sail in the UK, where we use all chain, and a 3:1 scope, unless we don't trust the holding or expect nasty weather.l, in which case we'll go up to 5:1. Any more than that means you're expecting such bad weather that you're probably not going ashore.
I'm now cruising in the US and finding that everybody puts out a ridiculous length of rope with a token length of chain on the end, and often a daft little CQR that's the size of a teaspoon. Have had run ins with American charter skippers taking up an entire anchorage with their 7:1 scope despite there being a pure sand bottom and barely a breath of wind 🤷🤦🙄
MaybeFiction@reddit
If it seems like a stupid question, it's because I'm a beginner and there is only so much that can be conveyed in classes. I bought an old boat after the surveyor gave me an oral rundown and recommendation (got it close to free) and there is a lot of equipment that I basically understand but don't know a lot of details, so I know about 3:1 and 5:1 rode rules but not much else. In other parts of my life, I haven't seen a lot of chains wear out or get rusty but I guess anchoring outs more stress on a chain. I suppose there would be other variables too like how much the boat is moving and how corrosive the environment. I have a feeling my chain has had very little actual use, based on its condition and the trip logs on the boat. Kind of sad in a way but it seemed like the owner stayed pretty local for the most part and always in a slip.
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
Yeah, a chain that lives in the locker will last decades. Likewise if it's only ever used in a soft muddy bottom in a freshwater lake. OTOH, a chain used in a rocky or sandy saltwater bottom, and used almost continuously, will only last 3-5yrs. Some cruisers invest in stainless, but it's about five times the price, and can have nasty failure modes. With galvanised mild steel, it also always looks much worse than it really is.
TheAmicableSnowman@reddit
Update w/ the name of the business if it turns out to be worthwhile. Always good to boost those guys that don't have the ad bandwidth, so the rest of us know.
e1p1@reddit
It used to be a fun place to go with good people. Randy Repass (founder) is a nice guy.
I was the family's farrier for a few years. I wonder how he feels about the fall of WM. Or maybe he just got rich and stopped caring, but I didn't get that vibe about him.
MaybeFiction@reddit
He probably didn't stop caring but sold for rational reasons.
The best businesses, from a consumer perspective, are always the ones that have a mission other than "maximize profits" and put that mission first. This is really only possible with "family" businesses though, because as soon as a company is a publicly traded corporation, it's only a matter of time before the board/shareholders vote to prioritize profits over the core mission. The only way to prevent this is to keep the company privately held and only owned by people who share the founders values, and this is really hard to do. Most critically, it's impossible to guarantee it.
This is a problem for not just retail businesses, manufacturers, etc, but for real estate as well. You can create your dream family compound for example but absolutely nothing will prevent your grandkids from selling the farm. And this principle itself is codified in the law as the "rule against perpetuities."
So a smart founder gets out with money for their family before they die and someone who inherits it takes it potentially an even worse direction.
There are a handful of companies that have resisted this to some degree but it's never perpetual. Wegmans right now is generationally circling the drain; Danny is doing a decent job of following his grandparents values, but eventually someone else will take over and then it into Kroger, probably literally just sell it to the Kroger people. And there really is no way to prevent it.
OptiMom1534@reddit
Went into the west marine in key west because I needed sika flex. Guy at the computer told me they don’t stock it, he never heard of it, and can’t order it. It’s not a product they sell. rightey-o. I’m sure if you need a huk shirt and costa sunglasses it’s a useful shop, but otherwise, the staff is as useless as the inventory.
johnbro27@reddit
They have been the Home Depot of chandleries; hiring people with little or no domain knowledge.
ez_as_31416@reddit
West Marine clerk in a SoCal city said people work there long enough to get the employee discount while they fit out their boat, then they sail off.
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
Loving the comparison
jawisi@reddit
Our problem is that we don’t have any alternatives, locally. I’d have to drive almost 60 miles to get to the nearest mon and pop chandlery. We used to have two Worst Marine locations but they recently closed the larger one. The remaining one barely has any useful cordage. It’ll probably stay open though, because it’s a monopoly.
Blarghnog@reddit
Amazon.
West Marine could have been the store with more for less, but instead because REI for boats combined with “just order it online and we’ll have it shipped eventually.”
That’s not a competitive strategy in today’s retail environment, especially when Amazon can get you the same parts for the same, less (or even sometimes more) but without the wait.
West Marine then tried to optimize like it’s 1986 by carrying more higher value items on the floor, but then cut its value down with its core return customer, the actual boat owners, who really only make a few lifetime purchases of yeti coolers and whatnot, but who regularly would come into the store if what they needed was available that day. But increasingly it just wasn’t. So much of their business moved to platforms with fast online delivery as the “next best thing,” where a brand differentiated channel like West Marine is far less valuable.
So, the business is floating all of this legacy storefront commercial retail space that’s costing them a fortune, and they increasingly can’t afford and don’t want to sell parts, which are a low margin, higher velocity business, but they can’t drive the low velocity, higher margin luxury goods segment (the old only place to actually see it in person argument) and even when they do, many people find they can buy the exact same stuff for less in two day delivery online.
It’s a tough place to be. They need to be a non-physical channel, and use stuff like DoorDash or other last mile to do delivery to boats who are desperate in a few hours, and Amazon to deliver everything else in a few days, and lose their 1990s retailer square footage.
I don’t think the brand is going to be able to make this shift, because that’s not how most retail corporate leaders think (they probably will try to take it in a bass pro shop direction instead or something similar, because that’s closer to the DNA of the late 40s, 50s, 60s and even 70+ year olds who are managing and investing in legacy retail and malls. But I have been wrong before.
I love the brand and hate to see it in such state. But when you keep doing the same thing month after month, year after year… and it’s not working… and you keep doing it…
Business_Air5804@reddit
Probably selling stuff for too low of a price. /s
Popeye-SailorMan@reddit
This will be a reorganization, not a liquidation. The debt will get reduced and the bond holders will takeover management, and the stores will survives. Here on the CT coast, WM had driven all other chandleries (boat world, post marine, brewers) out of business. So they kind of have a lock. But I agree my Westbrook one has too much expensive clothes and shoes and sunglasses up front.
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
Yes, maybe they will pull through, maybe they won't. Hopefully not too many people loose their jobs.
TheAmicableSnowman@reddit
I know that store. Even their hardware is a ripoff. Here in NE we have reasonably local cordage, too, so unless you need something immediately there's really no reason to go to WM.
Side note: Safe Harbor is slowly doing the same thing to marinas. It's getting pretty grim for the middle class sailor.
Nephroidofdoom@reddit
This. My local store couldn’t decide if it wanted to be a chandlery, a fishing store, or a clothing store. Really tough to do all 3. They would have been way better off picking a lane and opening several smaller stores closer to the water.
pdq_sailor@reddit
Defender has circumvented distribution (direct from manufactures) and has prices that are predatory to destroy competition ...
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
I don't find Defender all that cheap. Usually slightly less than West but that's not really saying much.
The local hardware shop is often cheaper than either.
pdq_sailor@reddit
The expensive stuff is where they kill West.. and that stuff you can't get in hardware stores... try pricing out winches or instruments...
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
Fair enough. Now that you mention it, they were way cheaper for anchor chain... Although that only works out if shipping isn't an issue.
pdq_sailor@reddit
Shipping steel, lead batteries - heavy stuff rarely works out well for anyone. The expensive stuff generally had low profit margins to start with and when distribution is circumvented in one case it translates into perhaps a ten percent advantage.. but when you lay out > $2K ten percent is a big deal... The instruments on our boat were > $5K (Ray marine) so yes I shopped like a beast.... Same thing with the heat pump... Lithium batteries I got direct from China \~22 lbs for 100 AH, same with solar panels, charge controllers.. but Blue Seas panels... there is a monopoly on these in Marine stores.. Anchor electric cable ... same deal.. doing major projects is a really big deal about pricing ... and I am not a nice guy when it comes to pricing/value..
Pocket_Aces11@reddit
I needed 200 feet of yacht braid and the clerk didn’t know how to properly finish (melt) the rope ends. Not a great selection as years past either.
Panem-et-circenses25@reddit
Everything is overpriced
throwaway88888429@reddit
Examples?
ruidh@reddit
I've always called them Westeros Marine.
markforephoto@reddit
Yeah I go to 3 different stores before I go to West Marine it’s literally my last resort. I’m very lucky to have access to multiple well stocked chandlery’s within 15 minutes.
goldfingerforu@reddit
West Marine has always been overpriced and preyed on the novice. Most smart boaters move on to other vendors after their first season.
I only go there in an emergency when I can’t wait for a shipment from the good guys.
Extreme_Map9543@reddit
Who are better vendors you’d recommend?
goldfingerforu@reddit
Defender, mostly. Local chandlers if you have one. Jamestown used to be good, but their prices have gone up.
mckenzie_keith@reddit
When a store is well-stocked and local, it is only competing with other stores that are well-stocked and local. When a store makes you order everything online and pick it up days later, it is competing with every internet store in the country.
When you could go into westmarine and buy what you need off the shelf, it had a reason to exist. As it started reducing what it keeps in stock, it had no reason to exist any more.
Same_Detective_7433@reddit
Well, they cancelled my order TWICE, as they did not like my order of about 5k, for CC delivery, which was not a problems, but took over a week to approve it, just did not seem to care to process the ID check.
So I cancelled, and bough everything from Defender, and much more.
So,,,,,
FairSeafarer@reddit (OP)
And you are apparently not alone... what a shame
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
Defender is awesome!
West marine was last report for cash and carry items I didn’t have time to order or the rare sale item that was pieces competitively.
clutchied@reddit
These rollup stores are disasters for any small locals. The capture the market drop prices below what other charge put the other co's out of business and then commence the price hikes and reductions in inventory.
It's the same story over and over again except you lose the expertise of the small locals.
Sailing equipment is a tough market...
tench745@reddit
I worked for West Marine in one of the "cold water" stores about 12 years ago. Every employee there was dismayed when they cut our engine parts selection down from three sections of shelving to one. Meanwhile, clothing (which we basically never sold) got double the floor space it had previously.
The company newspaper explained that the company was pivoting from being a boating store to a "boating lifestyle" store. They wanted to appeal to non-boaters and draw them in with fashion to get a larger market share. Meanwhile, they were alienating their existing customers by reducing in-store availability of products.
Corporate was also focusing on reducing store inventory for financial reasons. Our store had been a Boat US store and they were famous for having overstocked stores. If you wanted one, the store had six. But that tied up significant amounts of capital in inventory. When West Marine bought out Boat US a lot of that store inventory was shipped back to the warehouses for stores orders and online sales. Online orders could only be fulfilled from the warehouse. When I was leaving the company, they were just rolling out a system where online orders could be fulfilled from stores as well, so customers had access to inventory anywhere in the country. On paper it sounds like a great idea; if the Hawaii store had the only one in the company, the computer knew and customers could order it.
Based on what I saw last time I walked into a West Marine store, they took it too far. It looks like they've been relying more and more on this inter-store shipping and reduced stock in the warehouses, further freeing up that inventory investment. But that means that now the customer has to order everything and pay the store-to-store shipping costs, rather than having it show up on our weekly warehouse delivery for no extra charge.
Prices have never been West Marine's strength either, but it feels like that's gotten even worse. I was looking for a quart of varnish last year, and West Marine had it for literally twice the price of every other retailer. Now add on a shipping charge, and you'll never see that customer again unless you're the only game in town, which West Marine isn't.
In the case of our store, none of the changes did anything good. The store closed a year after I left. For the two and a half years I worked there, almost every day a customer would ask if we were closing as they watched our stock diminish and they struggled to get the equipment they needed to actually use their boats. I'm a little surprised the rest of the company has held on this long.
Novel-Atmosphere8995@reddit
Interesting you mention the Hawaii store, it's pretty much the only way to get same day anything here. If we lose this one, it's just one more thing to add to Amazon since they built the huge warehouse here. Most other places have an upcharge to ship to Hawaii, don't even mention the stuff that can't be shipped here to an individual.
MaybeFiction@reddit
This seems to be the crux of the issue and not just for WM, I'm having the same infuriating problem with Lowe's and others.
If I have to order it online, my "relationship" with the store goes out the window. If you tell me you have it in stock and it's "ship to store" why on earth would I buy it from you instead of searching out the best price from the universe of e-commerce stores available and have it delivered to my home or marina? The only reason I'm going to a store is to walk out with the thing I need the hour I need it. Ship to store makes your store entirely irrelevant to most consumers no matter what it is you're selling.
Someoneinnowherenow@reddit
I think I will start selling marine rope on San. Antonio Rd in Palo Alto. Worked for a while.
Not sure how to find a place with a sail loft upstairs though. The area has gentrified a lot of these days
I used to shop there and buy sail repair supplies from the spinnaker shop owned by the famous Lindsey Honey, I think famous 505 sailor. Stan Honey is her husband
Lord-of_the-files@reddit
I was recently able to get some seriously good clearance deals at West: - one touch winch handle for $40 - shaft anodes for $5 (reduced from $30) - RG8X at 44c/ft
Is this a sign that they're running down their stock?
CCCCLo0oo0ooo0@reddit
Yeah I am wondering when the mega sales are gonna happen.
MaybeFiction@reddit
Good question. I just bought a new transducer on clearance for $31, assuming it was because it was ancient stock, 20 year old model, but the thing has a 2023 manufacturing date on it so it's not that old. Seems like anode prices were extremely hit or miss, as I was able to get a few for way less than boatzincs dotcom, but still ended up having to go there for a couple of "odd sizes."
Dofus25@reddit
I haven't shopped there in a decade overpriced insanity why spend 30% to 40% more then you can order it online thru Amazon or a specific store or the company itself bought my solar panels online saved almost 50%
youngrichyoung@reddit
Wait, what did they do with all the money I've been giving them?
Arizona_Sailor@reddit
It’s a brick & mortar chain. Online boat parts are more affordable. I’m not surprised. I knew this before I took Economics as an elective course.
millijuna@reddit
I think it’s reflective of the whole market. While “Gucci Marine” (as we called it) left the Canadian market years ago, our local chandlers are struggling as well. Basically all the shops, services, and marinas that catered to the lower-to-middle end of the market are struggling and/or closing.
In our case, one of the local First Nations operated the two local “middle class” marinas. They simply let ours go to rot through neglect, then simply shuttered it, rendering 400+ boats homeless. The chandler that was nearby (off reserve) didn’t survive the loss in clientele. At their other one, they jacked the commercial rent for the businesses on the property by a factor of 10 or more, and virtually all of those businesses have shuttered and/or dramatically shrunk.
The other big player in town is down to 1 storefront, and honestly I don’t know how much longer it will survive.
It’s pretty bleak for small craft sailing here in cruising paradise.
Icy-Cardiologist2597@reddit
I am in a marina with a local chandler. While marina recently purchased by new investors. Chatting with management they literally told me the clothing side was far more popular and would shrink the chandelier. I at least got them to nod agreement- keep the basics!!! When I need 12awg with and a bilge pump, I NEED IT TODAY!!!
Free_Range_Lobster@reddit
PE milked it for everything its worth now they crash out and pay pennies on the dollars to their debtors.
CM_MOJO@reddit
Why do these lenders continue to lend private equity firms the capital to take over companies financed with debt? Do they not know the private equity playbook by now? They're never going to get paid back.
Belzoni-AintSo@reddit
Respectfully, I think you've misunderstood Private Equity. The Private part is that it's mostly small groups of high-net-worth individuals or private investment funds (as in: not for you and me) who come in with capital in lieu of commercial lenders (as in: "not private").
The whole point of PE is that they've got capital and are looking for a way to leverage that. If that means goring a corporation with a horn to the sphincter and dining on its entrails, that's okay with them. They'll leave the desiccated carcass behind and move on to the next victims.
CM_MOJO@reddit
Respectfully, I believe it is you who is mistaken about what private equity is.
Typically, private equity (PE) firms will purchase companies via leveraged buyouts, i.e. using large amounts of borrowed capital.
From the Harvard Business Rewiew...
"Private equity funds are illiquid and are risky because of their high use of debt; furthermore, once investors have turned their money over to the fund, they have no say in how it’s managed."
"Private equity has enjoyed an unfair tax advantage, but this has been primarily because of corporate capital gains taxes, not private equity firms’ use of interest payments on debt financing to shield profits from tax."
From the Toys "R" Us Wikipedia page...
"On March 17, 2005, a consortium of Bain Capital Partners LLC, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts (KKR) and Vornado Realty Trust announced a $6.6 billion leveraged buyout of the company."
Just one example of PE using borrowed money to buyout a public company. Almost all are leveraged buyouts. When have you ever know "high-net-worth individual" to use their own money when they can use the capital of others?
What PE firms used to do was find a floundering publicly traded company, buy a controlling stake in said company, take it private, and then turn the business around to make it profitable again, and then sell the company for a profit.
Now, they do the same thing but instead of turning the company around (why do that anymore, it takes actual work), they load the company up with debt (including the debt they used to purchase the controlling stake), and extract all the wealth from the company by selling all its assets, whether that's real estate, patents, brand names, etc., then running the business into the ground and taking it into bankruptcy. They make way more money this way, with their debtors holding the empty bag.
And if they don't take the company private, they do all the things I mentioned above but they also short their own company's stock while they're stripping the assets from the company. Heavily shorting the stock drives its stock price even lower, making their short investment even more valuable. Rinse and repeat. When the company does go bankrupt, once again the debtors are left holding the empty bag (i.e. claims against whatever assets the bankrupt company has left, and surprise, surprise, nothing of value is left because the PE firm sold it all off or reorganized it into a separate company).
And when they short a stock, they get paid immediately when they sell those borrowed shares at the current stock price. And then the company goes bankrupt, they never have to close their position. The money they made shorting is all profit, minus whatever fees they paid on the borrowed shares until the company goes bankrupt.
AND HERE'S THE REAL KICKER... because they never have to close their short position (because the company is now bankrupt), they don't ever have to pay tax on that profit they made. A real legal scam. They are leeches upon society.
Here's what PE did to Radio Shack...
"The company had received a $250,000,000 cash infusion in 2013 from Salus Capital Partners and Cerberus Capital Management. This debt carried onerous conditions, preventing RadioShack from gaining control over costs by limiting store closures to 200 per year and restricting the company's refinancing efforts. With too many underperforming stores remaining open, the chain continued to spiral toward bankruptcy."
PE gave them a loan with such bad terms that it would send the company into bankruptcy. Why would a firm do this? Why would it tie the company's hands from being able to refinance or close additional underperforming stores? Because they wanted it to go bankrupt to capitalize on the short sale scam I mentioned above.
Redfish680@reddit
Ironic, considering how WM all but destroyed their brick and mortar competition (Boater’s World, Boat/US, etc.) back in the day.
bill9896@reddit
Funny you should mention the Boat US stores. They had the ultimate predatory strategy. There was no intention to build an ongoing business, but rather build a competitor that West Marine had no choice but to buy out. They opened similarly sized, similarly stocked stores within blocks of as many of West Marines most profitable stores as they could. The aim was simply to syphon off enough business that West Marine HAD to buy them out
There are places where West Marine never really got off the ground. For example, Annapolis. There was a great local chandlery that was well established. So much so that in one of the iconic sailing towns on the east coast West Marine just has a small store, really just a token presence. But then the local chandlery was sold, and the new owners overexpanded, and now they are mediocre--at best. Propably a good target market now for WM to expand their presence.
It's a cycle. I think it is amusing how everybody jumps on the anti-PE bandwagon with the stereotype of short term profits. I guess you all don't know that WM has been owned by PE for ten years. Not exactly the short term mindset. The current owners have been running if for 5 years, and they have been doing a MUCH better job that the previous ones. This move really seems to be a way to dump/consolidate/shrink/move a LOT of marginal retail outlets that they have accumulated. Some from bad decisions, some from changes in local markets.
Defender hasn't been the same since they were aquired by FortNine. They used to be our go-to vendor in the marine business because prices and service were exceptional. They are decidedly UNexceptional these days. No different than another branch of West Marine.
Redfish680@reddit
Interesting. I don’t recall B/US doing battle with WM, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Schwartz struck me as the type who preferred walking the halls of Congress than the aisles of the stores.
If you’re referring to Fawcetts, yeah. When they were on the waterfront it was the place to be, but once they were forced to move it’s became a shell of itself, which is sad. They had everything you wanted and needed. The best thing about WM’s superstore is probably the rigging counter.
As for Defender, you’re spot on. I shopped the original location in New Rochelle back when it was basically a disorganized collection of boat gear but like Fawcetts, if they didn’t have it, you didn’t need it!
SorryButterfly4207@reddit
Ah the magic of private equity...
Using economies of scale and subsidized by investor money undercut the independent stores and other competition; once the competition is gone out of business, raise prices to recoup the investment; take on debt to pay back the original investors; eventually default on that debt; rinse and repeat.
Intelligent-Salt-362@reddit
Simply put, why would you shop there if you can get most items in 2 days or less via Amazon. I am adding a couple snap shackles to the ends of my halyards and to clip the hank on jib at the bow on my new boat. I didn’t even consider going to West Marine. I sailed yesterday, ordered today, and they’ll be here on Wednesday to be installed on Friday when ai get back over to my boat. The faltering of brick and mortar hits specialty stores the hardest as it opens up availability and shrinks delivery times. So, unless you absolutely need it today (and West Marine was never a guarantee of that), why pay the up charge necessary to support increasingly expensive commercial real estate?
Uh_yeah-@reddit
Is adding apparel a sign of desperation or impending doom? If I recall right, that Annapolis Performance Sailing made a large switch to apparel before going out of business (yes, Covid probably played a large role in their demise). West Marine seems to have added an increasing inventory of apparel. Now I’m seeing apparel occupying a larger section of home stores like Home Depot and Lowe’s…?
MaybeFiction@reddit
Apparel is relatively high margin and inventory cycles quickly. People also make larger impulse purchases with apparel for whatever reason. I don't understand it because I don't really participate; my inner cheapskate is most active with clothing and while I'm pretty picky about the garments I wear, I'm picky about where and how I get them too. I almost never pay "full price" for a garment. I settle for the wrong color to get it off the clearance rack, or I buy it used on poshmark or ebay or even at a regular thrift store. And once I find a piece of clothing that I actually like, I keep it until it wears out or doesn't fit, and in the latter case I sell it used again. This is a business model that happens around me without my direct participation, ultimately. 
chadv8r@reddit
Exactly we have seen where this goes 😞.. (AP even had a good selection of apparel)
blopeep@reddit
it's the same story - PE buys the company, loads it with debt, and starts the death spiral.
Monomoy took WM private in 2017, then Catterton picked it up in 2021. Recapitalization in 2023 (first big sign of impending doom).
Shame.
JohnC53@reddit
Seems like there is an opportunity for RockAuto to harness a market here. I'd welcome that.
Kibbles_n_Bombs@reddit
Isn’t that pretty much defender? Usually the best price, good customer service, and free shipping on a lot of items. My pet peeve of west marine is that they usually don’t have the manual linked with a product, but 9/10 times I can pull the product up on defender and the manual is right there.
I try to do thegpsstore for electronics because they’re located 30 miles south of me so the shipping is quick and their support is good.
MaybeFiction@reddit
I just wanted an alternative to having to shop online for everything (and wait for shipping)
Especially as a weekend warrior living very far from the water, any time I have to use the internet to buy a part or tool means the project gets put off to another trip. West has its issues, but paying $5 more for a thing is less of an issue when the alternative is a wasted tank of gas because I couldn't finish the job on a marina visit.
TheAmicableSnowman@reddit
Oh man, I'd love that. RA is my go-to for my cars.
e1p1@reddit
TLDR: West Marine was started and was a success due to its pre-internet business model, which was very effective for its time. The internet and time caught up with it, and depending on your opinion, Private Equity has swooped in to do its vulture thing, or they're struggling to make it viable again. Or both.
West Marine was started by Randy Repass as a cordage store to help out friends and community sailors. He expanded from there. This was pre-internet, and if you didn't have a good local chandlery, or your local had gotten lazy, West Marine with its inventory and killer catalog was the easiest way to source parts. And if you were in a part of the country or world that didn't have a chandler, the West Marine catalog was a bible.
And, as another poster mentioned, even in Palo Alto California, there were a lot of middle class people who still had time and money for the sailing hobby. I think that point about changing demographics is huge, especially in the community around a physical store.
Now with the internet, with direct shipping, drop shipping, ebay, Etc, individual people and small shops can compete. You can research and source parts from your bed with your coffee next to you.
The BoatUS angle regarding forcing West Marine to buy them out is interesting, I don't know enough about that to comment. But if true, it just adds to the storm.
I guess my point is, West Marine may simply have lived its life. Perhaps aided and abetted by some poor choices. But nothing lasts forever.
InquisitiveMind705@reddit
I’m relatively new to boat ownership. But the in store experience at one of the stores near me was as bad as any big box store, for reference I was the only customer in the store at the time. There’s one on the edge of my marina and they’re helpful but never have anything I need. Add in a lot of internet research when I have the time and I can find what I need elsewhere for less and still get the same delivery time since WM doesn’t have it in stock. I’d also prefer to support my local businesses as much as I can even if it is a bit out of the way, so long as it isn’t obscenely more expensive - plus they usually have what I need in stock. Usually bankruptcy is also a way of cutting leases to reduce footprint. Ironically the local boat store I go to used to have a huge following and large store, competition from w marine forced them to move and shrink. They barely survived and hopefully the failure of west marine may help them and other local businesses grow a bit more?
jpttpj@reddit
Was in the repair/sales business in the 80s and I remember we started buying electronics from them ( as E & B Marine) because it was cheaper than direct, even as a “ approved installer” . It was basically the Walmart of marine stuff. Gradually went downhill on quality of a lot of products. Lots of China junk. Not surprising that online sales may be the go to now, as is with a lot of businesses now.
Big_Relative8784@reddit
Our local mom and pop marine supply store has been hanging on by stocking the actual stuff West Marine couldn't be bothered to sell as well as running a marine consignment shop in the basement. The just expanded significantly, moving into a closed car dealership. This article gives me hope for their continued success!
Ancientways113@reddit
Not surprised. Never any stock in the store. On line or go elsewhere (Defender Marine).
Raneynickelfire@reddit
They've been "going down" since I worked there in 2008.
Weary_Boat@reddit
I’ve tried ordering some nice sunglasses twice on deep discount and both times the order never arrived. If you don’t pay the full price in the store then delivery seems like it’s been getting really sketchy. Guess this was a sign that things weren’t going well…
Weary_Boat@reddit
Back in the 90s I completely outfitted a boat, must have spent well over $10K at West. They had nearly everything I needed, especially fasteners. It’s amazing how many times I’d go there and find something that Lowe’s or HD didn’t have in stainless steel, I didn’t mind paying the extra because it was right there. Too bad they’re not the same anymore.
raehn@reddit
Private equity baby. Closed the Chicago store which was bustling all the time. Private equity is the plague
Funkshow@reddit
Screw them. Terrible company to deal with. They wouldn't exchange a defective product for me that had "Lifetime Warranty" printed on the box.
AkumaBengoshi@reddit
West Marine has never been the best vendor for anything. Except maybe epoxies.
SorryButterfly4207@reddit
West System Epoxy is a completely different brand.
ABA20011@reddit
My local west marine in far northern IL has empty shelves and is full of the wrong inventory. They still have cartons of antifreeze from the fall, they have salt away when we are 1000 miles from the closest salt water. It is really kind of a mess.
They closed the “flagship” Chicago store, and now only a couple of smaller satellite stores around.
permalink_child@reddit
I think Amazon has made them somewhat superfluous too.
noo_maarsii@reddit
I was there last week in West Palm on our way back to Canada. They were out of stock on quite a few things we needed that seemed pretty routine, even a replacement battery for my handheld VHF (a model they sell) but it I needed a $600.00 bean bag, they had about 30 of those all on sale. Lots of expensive inventory.
chisailor@reddit
They expanded their retail footprint too big and into larger flashier new stores and it failed.
They will likely survive and use chapter 11 to get out of many of their expensive leases.
They closed the new fancy Chicago store last year and opened a small pro store (distribution center) south of the city. They will likely replicate this in other seasonal markets.