Depression - Should I return to home country?

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lost_bob_expat@reddit

Hi mate, I am both a Psychotherapist and Expat Coach...here's what I think.

Adapting in a new country takes 18-24 months if all goes well. If all doesn't go well, even longer. This is called culture shock.

Because you have had some bad experiences with employment during your adaptation phase and some serious grief, it made things twice as hard. The weird thing is, when we return to our home countries we think it will be easier, but we've changed so much that adapting back into our own culture can be just as hard as it was adapting abroad back when we arrived.

I can understand that your depression isn't budging right now due to culture shock, grieving, and processing difficult work experiences all at the same time while battling uncertainty of whether you should move and lose your partner. That's a LOT of severely stressful stuff all squeezed into 2 years.

In my opinion...a huge change right now and starting over again, and letting go of your partner over and above everything else while you're already hardly coping will likely make your depression worse. It might be going in the direction of burnout as well, which takes months...even years to recover from if it's really in its later stages.

I would find a therapist trained in EMDR and / or Brainspotting. This chronic, severe stress is keeping your Sympathetic nervous system (stress response) over-activated chronically and it drains all your energy and will eventually burn you out. Chronic high levels of stress like this does very similar things to your brain and nervous system as Trauma. You need nervous system based therapy, not talk therapy.

I run a program for expats going through this stuff, if you'd be interested. The program addresses mental health, culture shock, cross-cultural integration and all things expat life.

I wouldn't make huge decisions like moving while I am at my worst. Perhaps you just need the right kind of help?

Either way...find a therapist trained in EMDR and in grief. I think that would make a huge difference for you.

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Serious-Humor-2992@reddit

I was in a situation but on the other side of things. My partner moved to Australia from Europe and we thought it would work out great. However as we began to live in Australia it started to make it self apparent it wasn’t the place for her. Probably a lot of factors that contributed to that but mainly she didn’t feel comfortable in the Australian way of life and its culture. Also had experienced working in some very negative job experiences that left her really stressed out and it had a major impact on her mental health too. Also found it hard to make friends here and social connections as well.

Suffice to say we both thought it would be something that just needed time and some working through to adjust and make it work and eventually would get better but that’s not how it went. It just got worse and it ultimately affected our relationship in a big way where we were just became both miserable. Life becomes very pointless at that stage. The thing is you can love someone unbelievably but if you’re trading it at the expense of happiness it will never work out in the end.

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awndrwmn@reddit

If it’s okay to ask, what parts of the Australian way of life did your ex have problems with? And what major differences from European life might she have been more accustomed to?

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Serious-Humor-2992@reddit

Well she found people to be generally quite disingenuous for the most part, which I didn’t really think was the case but then looking back at it I think that may have been true to some degree. I just didn’t put much currency in that sort of thing but I guess that’s easy for me to say but very hard to deal with when your trying to make a new life in a new country and friends and have a life again like you had in Europe. It can make someone feel left out and isolated in a certain way.

Working here she found a lot harder too, not because of the work level but general office politics and culture. This I have to agree with because here people can be much more obsessed with self promotion and moving up the ladder and so being competitive to a toxic level. I think is an outcome of our culture. Australia is a seriously expensive place to live and people are in a constant mode of trying to increase their income just to get by. So being in highly competitive work places was just another negative compared to being in Europe where it’s not really like that. I mean working life over there isn’t really a dog eat dog situation and you’re not working crazy hours every day for the most part and Sunday’s are still kind of like a public holiday where people stay home with their families. So that’s an example of one of the small things I did see that I preferred myself in Europe.

Also Australia compared to some European countries is quite restrictive with what you can and can’t do. We have some non sensible laws here. I mean I could go through some of those but these examples of the experience of living here were just kind of building a negative experience for her in general but as time went more and more things just kind of added on to it where yeah it just wasn’t going in the right direction and just became more and more difficult to live with for the both of us.

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ghstrprtn@reddit

We have some non sensible laws here.

like what?

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Serious-Humor-2992@reddit

As a small example is in Europe you are free to drink alcohol in public spaces as long as you’re being responsible. I mean that might not seem like much but that’s a nice freedom to have and make your own choices over. Stuff like that i could see how they would just be a reminder of being in a quite a different place.

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ghstrprtn@reddit

oh yeah. you're not allowed to drink in public in Canada either. guess the anglo countries are just killjoys.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

Sorry to hear this but you are 100% correct. I hope you both are in good place place now

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Advanced-Parking173@reddit

By the way, what happened after you both became miserable? Did you end up breaking up because of it?

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Serious-Humor-2992@reddit

Yeah we eventually parted ways after quite a while of trying to work through it. Just becomes difficult being a relationship like that. Maybe other people could have worked through it but unfortunately we just couldn’t seem to figure it out. Or could of tried something else like go back to Europe and live there for some time and see if that worked out too and who knows that could have been a way to go, but it’s hard to think through these things when your both not really in a good space in the relationship by then.

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Emergency_Rooster664@reddit

Reverse culture shock could make things worse.

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Rich-Business9773@reddit

Yes, leave. You'll feel more at home and comfortable in your home country. You likely also have some community there

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IVFjourneyduck@reddit

Everyone says Australia is a great country but I just came back from UK and a very short visit to two European countries. I seriously understand how you feel even thought I have lived here all my adult life.

There is so much in Europe and so forward in so many ways and moreover your longing for your home.

See if you can do a short trip to your home town and rest, rejuvenate, and recover. Perhaps then you can make a better call. So sorry for your grief. I truly do understand this in so many ways.

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alexnapierholland@reddit

As someone in Europe who enjoyed Australia a lot, what do you miss about Europe?

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simple_explorer1@reddit

Not the person you asked but, action packed cities just stones throw away from each other (especially by AU standards).

Choices of cities to visit from London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Madrid, Stockholm, Bergen, munich, vienna the list is endless and each offer a unique culture and architecture.

Wonderful ski Destinations, beautiful and GENTLE naturae with ski and alps and beautiful lakes etc.

World class public transport. You can literally go from Amsterdam to Bergen using just public transport of you want.

Down to earth people (except Germany and france).

Walkable and world class cities. Australian cities ranking on top as most livable is laughable when all of them are car dependent except City center.

Lack of 45 degree Celsius, massive mosquitoes, and skin cancer causing sun

Australia just has 2 cities, Melbourne and Sydney and mid sized towns/cities like perth, Brisbane, Adelaide and hobart. They are all miles and miles away from each other and you probably need a flight to go from 1 Australia City to another and there is nothing in between with giant dustball deserts.

If you drive between cities then it will take anywhere from 8hrs to 16hrs or even more to go from 1 place to other with ast amount on nothingness. Contast to that, in Europe there is so much to see just between cities. If you take flixbus or train then there is constantly something to see in between. Australia can't match that.

The things to see on Australia are also disappointing to see from global standards like Uluru mountain, nothing there to see.

Once you have seen beaches (not bonding please), harbours, and say Melbourne (Sydney is not even that good of a city), you pretty much have done it all. Then Australia becomes boring and suburban where you need car to go to anywhere including your with with traffic and kinda American way of life.

Good weather is there but it gets 45 degrees real fast. Outback has nothing. Any outdoor trip outside the city means you have to be careful about snakes and wildlife. Alice springs and Northern territory are boring and filled with crocodiles and even more wild life trying to byte.

And Australians are cliquey as hell. Nepotism, toxic work atmosphere, will you know is more important than what you know, othering outsiders, non welcoming etc means if you spend more time with Australia you will realize how lonely it gets with them and how unwelcoming the whole atmosphere is.

I am not saying everything is great in Europe but atleast there are massive choices. In Australia there is none.

And then travelling internationally is a luxury and takes anywhere from 12hrs to 24 hrs of flight and for most that's not feasible both time wise and cost wise. That's why most Australians mostly go to Bali which is similar to Australia beaches anyways but with more culture and friendly atmosphere.

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Legitimate-Error-633@reddit

European here who moved to Australia and I think you undersell the country a little bit. Whilst it’s true that the big cities are far away from each other, the east coast (where most of the cities are) is reasonably populated and full of little towns and some smaller cities (Bendigo, Geelong, Ballarat, Wangaratta in Victoria for example). It’s not as empty as people think - unless you are in the middle or west coast.

Australia does need more big small cities though. Instead of Melbourne just growing and growing, more jobs should move to the smaller regional cities.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

I think you have not spend around much time with second or the first gen immigrants in AU. I would say this is more true for America than Australia. Look at how many second gen or even first gen migrants are mainstream in US from media, CEO, hollywood, fintech, politics and general life vs AU where non anglo saxons are nowhere to be seen.

Also, in lot of western european countries the problem is language and not cliquey culture. You cannot expect someone who does not even speak the language to make it big in any realms of life anywhere in the world. But the foreigners who do learn the language do end up getting a fair go. Literally the people who don't even speak the language still do pretty well in places like netherlands. Even in UK look at the politics, media etc. and foreigners do pretty well compared to Australia.

Ethnic enclaves are all over australia btw, so i do think you are looking at it with rose tinted glass.

Spending time with Australians was one of the loneliest times of my life. Cliquey as hell, highly nepotistic, who you know is more important than what you know, hella othering, polite on the face but different behind the scene etc. Ofcourse not everyone is bad just like you can say this about any place but the culture is definitely this way which makes being around australians significantly lonely. I think the only people who do somewhat well are brits, kiwis and canadians but even kiwis complain about how stuck up Aussies are.

I genuinely and honestly think, Americans are the most welcoming people in the entire western world. Outgoing, warm, chatty, easy going and for the most part not 2 faced. Based on my lived experience I honestly cannot say any of these are true for Australians in general.

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Legitimate-Error-633@reddit

I’m actually from the Netherlands and all your criticisms can be applied to the Netherlands as well. There are plenty of foreign names in the Australia cabinet/House of Representatives (Penny Wong for example). I work for a big Fintech company (one of Australian’s largest) and the majority of our staff have a non-Anglo background (Indian mostly).

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simple_explorer1@reddit

I work for a big Fintech company (one of Australian’s largest) and the majority of our staff have a non-Anglo background

i bet they are mostly workers and none of them in leadership roles or running the departments.

I’m actually from the Netherlands and all your criticisms can be applied to the Netherlands as well.

The Dutch people are direct, down to earth, egalitarian and treat outsiders much better. Workplaces are less toxic and expats have a friendly atmosphere. Sure it is difficult to make friends in NL but i do not think I would call Dutch people 2 faced, disingenuous or fake. Australia and england truly have this problem at an extreme level

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simple_explorer1@reddit

This comment is made by an Australian himself in this thread whose wife was from Europe, found Australians disingenuous (I.e 2 faced and Australian workplaces toxic) and she returned back. Basically everything I said about my experience in with Australians was echoed the same way. So you're "everyone gets a fair go" is not what most expats experience, especially non anglo.

https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/comments/1t2br1t/comment/ojo9jis/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

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alexnapierholland@reddit

Wow, appreciate your thoughts!

I lived in Manly, Sydney, for a year, aged 31 and fell in love with the lifestyle and ocean.

It felt like a world-class city, surrounded by nature, with the ability to freedive and surf.

In under an hour I could go from a large, air-conditioned shopping mall with great coffee shops to being underwater swimming with sharks.

However, to get sponsored and stay longer I'd have had to stay in the enterprise sales careeer that I'd grown to loathe.

I moved to Bali, setup an online markeing business for American startups and now live in Portugal. Live is good overall.

But I miss the warm ocean, freediving and combination of tier one city plus beach life in Australia.

We're considering a move to Cyprus or Thailand.

You're right though, snowboarding in Europe is awesome.

Also, I don't think I was in Australia long enough for the problems to mount up.

There's no way I'd have my online business if I'd stayed in Australia, due to the insane cost of living that kills risk-taking.
We shared an apartment with a couple. Like many, we'd have likely been forced to move further out into the suburbs by now.
My friends who stayed out get very frustrated with the authority figures (police/security) and cost of living.
I think the sense of isolation from the rest of the world would creep in.

Appreciate your thoughts, it's reassuring to know the grass always seems greener!

I try to practice gratitude, it helps a lot.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

People often forget that the culture and the people living in any country define the place a lot. As I said, being around australians was one of the most lonely experiences of my life. Sure polite to the face but that's about it. The work culture was toxic and nepotistic as hell and even Kiwis often complain how stuck up Aussies are. I think brits and canadians do a bit well socially with Aussies and with kiwis it is 50/50 but non anglo background is, well.... not sure. Many foreigners and expat just live in their own bubble because of that, what else can they do.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

Everyone says Australia is a great country

Most don't talk about how lonely it is to be around Australians as an expat. I have talked about this in other comments but the culture is very cliquey, nepotistic, othering, tall poppy syndrome, who one knows is more important than what one knows and just people being 2 faced and polite on the face but completely different behind the scenes, toxic workplaces etc. Gets exhausting. Ofcourse not everyone is like that but the culture overall seems to be this way and so are the experiences of many expats. Living in expat bubbles is the only way to not feel lonely and cutoff. ironically England feels also very similar to Australian culture. USA for all its faults was 100x more welcoming, chatty, and inclusive people.

Ironically even many kiwis complain about how formal and business like so many Aussies are. Not a jab at you personally but just sharing how life is with Australians from an expat perspective.

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Competitive-Papaya26@reddit

But if your partner doesn’t want to move back with you to make up for the time and effort you spent in Australia, I question whether this is a healthy relationship—I think you already have your answer! Moving shouldn’t be this difficult, especially when your health isn’t being prioritized.

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getreckedfool@reddit

You can move for your partner and they don’t give you the same grace?

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Fluffy-Bee4328@reddit

I don’t know what you’re grieving - maybe a loved one, maybe missing your culture, or something else - but grief and depression together are so heavy. Are you homesick? Have you been home at all in 2 years? If you’re able to go back to Europe to visit and reconnect with the parts of you that are based in being there, I would recommend that. Fill your cup back up. If financially it’s either stay or go for good, there is a thought exercise that has worked for me in the past. Clear your mind and calm your heart. Imagine yourself trying on both scenarios like a coat. You’ve moved back to Europe. You’ve stuck it out longer in AUS. What do you feel when you’re wearing each “coat?” Relief? Sadness? Nothing? Let your gut speak to you. I’m sorry you’re in this hard spot. I hope you find some clarity. It’s great you’re at least able to think about making a change for your own well being and life.

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HumanProject7893@reddit

I wonder if you have struggled with depression before. It is a really hard decision. If you really think life is better for you and feel more grounded back in your home country it sounds like your body is giving you the answer, if you haven't been depressed before. Take your time, maybe explore going back for some time and think realistically of what your options are, where you would live+ you will need to grief your future and love which is always so difficult. Although you might feel relief too if you really don't want a life there. Sending you lots of love

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EmploymentOk2028@reddit

I’m in Australia from America. I feel the same way. I’m trying to convince my husband for us to move to the USA

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Ok-Charge-9091@reddit

Have you even remotely hinted to him you want to go back?

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Wonderful_Nectarine1@reddit

off topic but why do you assume the partner is male? I moved to Aus marrying Aussie girl.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

Well, in general men are okay finding partner abroad compared to women, especially in Australia the likelihood of an Australian women trying to get a partner from abroad is less likely given there preference of local and known

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Ok-Charge-9091@reddit

Er, ok.

My point being never change yourself for him/her/them.

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simple_explorer1@reddit

Omg, I just feel sad to see yet another expat thinking of leaving Australia.

OP in understand you because Australian work culture (and culture in general) is extremely cliquey, nepotistic, whom you know is now important than what you know, people in general are 2 faced and the atmosphere is quite toxic in offices. I myself couldn't survive in Australian company.

I still have nightmares of how I used to be standing alone on company pub events or social gatherings and no one used to talk to me or the conversation was one sided driven by me.

I am not saying you must be facing all of that but just sharing what I faced with Aussies and I am glad I don't work with them anymore. I left the job.

All in all, Australia and in general Australians are very hard to integrate with, especially as an expat adult and the culture is cliquey as hell.

I just feel sad when yet another expat of thinking of leaving Australia or will eventually leave. This is a side of Australia that is not talked about enough.

Whether to leave or stay is a very personal decision. I just wanted to echo they I understand you and I have myself gone through the same and nothing improved for me.

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uzibunny@reddit

My advice to you is, if you're not happy now, there is your answer. Your gut knows what is right for you or not. I also loved for love, to my husbands country Japan. I didn't love it there, but I love him. Soon after I found I was pregnant, so I'm stuck here. It's been really, really tough for me, I make the best of it to keep our family together, but I feel very depressed and isolated often. In your case it sounds like you're not married or have kids to tie you down. Please don't get ties down in a country you don't like, thousands of miles and an expensive flight ticket to your home, friends and family. Trust me on this.

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Hour_Entertainer6493@reddit

Was it always depressing to be in Australia for the 2 years that you’ve been there? Or was it the prolonged grief that has been affecting you all along? If medication and therapy are not working, how about your partner? How’s your partner helping you recover from all of these? Maybe your partner would like to join you and try living in Eu for a while?

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Justabjjgirl@reddit

Could you pinpoint more clearly that you are missing in Australia compared to Europe?

I moved to the UK from Germany for love and had a really hard time as well for about 2 years. I have been in therapy weekly with depression and high anxiety. I changed jobs a lot to find one I liked and we have moved twice in the 2 years as well. Now I am much better (2.5 years in), I still don't like my job, but I am 8 months pregnant. So it doesn't matter soon lol And we are in the process of buying a house to stay in for the next 10-15 years and get settled. I needed the stability of living in one place, working on my goals (having a family) and building a social circle (which always takes time). I thought so many times about going back to Germany, because I just wanted a way out of this depression and anxiety. But I do not believe Germany would have fixed it unfortunately. Both mental health issues would have simply followed me.

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