On an IFR flight plan if ATC clears you for takeoff, on course. Do you go direct to the first fix at 400ft/1000ft/after the ODP/etc or turn and intercept the course that is direct from the field to the first fix?
Posted by ChiefDaddyJ@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 24 comments
Been seeing some debate about this on the line
Goatdaddy1@reddit
We do 400' turn vmc, 1000' imc. Generally. Im sure there are mountainous airports that require the odp to be completed before turning. We dont go there.
MarcusFelonius@reddit
You join the course line as filed. You cannot clear yourself direct to the fix anymore than you would be able to accidentally fly off course and “reclear” yourself to the fix by hitting direct, enter, enter or equivalent.
As far as what practical bearing this has in the real world, it is usually inconsequential and I am sure controllers are accustomed to people doing it but we had an issue at my airline where people we flying out excessively far on runway heading before “clearing” themselves to the first fix, which put them through some restricted airspace whereas a turn to join the course line would have prevented the issue.
randombrain@reddit
Only do this if you weren't issued a heading or a "direct FFIXX" with the takeoff clearance.
My experience is that we do issue one of those, and neither option means "turn past FFIXX to join the pre-drawn connecting line."
But if you were given an "on course" then I guess that would mean to join the line. We don't use that phraseology where I work, so I can't say for certain.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
I’ve never flown back to intercept a pie drawn course line. Giving myself an intercept heading when my needles are full scale deflection seems very strange in the IFR world. Only other time we attempt to intercept a full scale deflection is intercepting a LOC/VOR/GPS approach course, but that is on an ATC assigned heading…
randombrain@reddit
Exactly. I didn't want to complicate this, but (again in my experience) when we do tell you to join a track (airway or whatever) we issue a heading to fly until you catch up with it. That's another reason why I, from a controller perspective, wouldn't expect you to turn on your own to join the track.
randombrain@reddit
Your clearance is "DEPT direct FFIXX direct XYZ etc etc etc."
If the controller really said "proceed on course, cleared for takeoff" then I think that would mean to join the magenta line connecting DEST to FFIXX. And yes, you would turn toward that line once you reach 400' above the DER elevation, unless the ODP says otherwise.
I don't know how common that instruction is. I know where I work we will issue "direct FFIXX, cleared for takeoff." And that means we do not want you turning all the way toward that pre-drawn connecting line. It means once you start your turn, point your nose toward FFIXX. Don't turn more than that.
TheDrMonocle@reddit
In the center environment I personally dont care if they fly back to the magenta line. Direct from whatever point you start the turn is better, but off an uncontrolled, shits more relaxed. Just dont fly runway heading if we say cleared as filed. Just start the damn turn.
randombrain@reddit
Agreed, off a non-towered airport it is more relaxed because there will only be one IFR aircraft in the vicinity.
I would still expect them to proceed direct rather than joining the line, coming from my Tower perspective and also what I see most non-towered departures do. But I don't think I could say it's strictly wrong to join the line.
ChiefDaddyJ@reddit (OP)
The clearance I usually get when I see this debate come up is where you got your clearance at the gate “as filed”.
Then tower just instructs you “cleared for takeoff”. With no other comment
Full_Wind_1966@reddit
I dont think I have ever gotten "cleared for takeoff" with no other comoment tbh. I have always gotten at least, contact XYZ airborne
In this case, Id be in a hurry to check in with approach/center, as they would have more instructions for us I would assume.
randombrain@reddit
In the USA we wait to issue the "contact Departure" instruction until you're airborne. So depending on the situation, at some airports you will get "cleared for takeoff" and nothing else.
randombrain@reddit
I'm not claiming to speak for all controllers, but I feel like the intent there is for you to act as if they had said "cleared direct FFIXX, cleared for takeoff." In other words, don't turn beyond to join the line. That's how I would intend it, at least.
But if they didn't actually tell you "direct FFIXX" then I can't say that it's wrong to join the line. And they may have even intended that.
As always when there's ambiguity, the best option is to clarify with ATC in the moment. Especially if it's a long-ish turn, like maybe 50° or more, and so the difference between "direct" and "join the line" is more noticeable.
x4457@reddit
TERPS says 400 feet unless otherwise noted or instructed. That’s your lower limit. There is no provision for delaying your turn above 400 feet unless you’re on a published or instructed alternate procedure (ODP, SID, ATC instruction).
In the US, direct means direct. That means that when you receive the instruction, you are to turn to and navigate directly to that fix. Not a line from any previous fix or position - direct is direct. Outside the US you’ll occasionally hear the phrase “present position direct” which is different, but not applicable in the US.
randombrain@reddit
I know at least at my airport, if the first fix is within the range of acceptable headings off the runway I will issue "proceed direct FFIXX, cleared for takeoff" all the time.
Depends on where you are in the country and what kind of traffic there is around you, but it does happen.
andrewrbat@reddit
I have seen lots of controllers do this, whether filed on a sid or not. I like that it takes away any doubt, and re-confirms the sid assignment on takeoff if applicable.
randombrain@reddit
Curious what exactly you mean by that? Just because you're getting direct to a fix doesn't necessarily mean you are or aren't on a SID. Like if there's a SID that says "climb on tower-assigned heading, expect vectors to ABC" and the tower says "turn left direct ABC, cleared for takeoff." I would consider that "direct" instruction to be acting as a vector, and I would consider you to still be flying the SID (including any restrictions on when to start the turn).
andrewrbat@reddit
“Rnav to futbl clear for takeoff 27r”
When i see futbl as my first fix in the fms with a preprogrammed route to it, it reassures me that atc, me, and the airplane all have the same plan for what I’m doing when i get airborne. This clearence confirms the beginning of my “climb via sid” clearence to match my mental model.
We do a “navigation brief” before the “before takeoff” checklist where we call out our sid or heading, and the first fix so we are just triple checking this.
In the case im not filed for a sid clearing me direct to the fist fix on my flt plan is also reassurance that my flight plan is correctly programmed, and in the case of multiple flight plans being filed, it verifies we are off the the correct start. I have had a few instances where atc clears us to (or is expecting us to go to) a fix not on our flt plan and when we discuss they usually realize the airport we left just swapped the departures and they weren’t told or forgot. I just like when atc uses “direct” or “rnav to” or even “climb via the abc1” instead of “on course” or just cleared for takeoff, because its an added opportunity for pilots and atc to crosscheck each others’ mental models and correct any errors. When we are departing a class b primary there are already enough opportunities for an RA so i like the verification.
randombrain@reddit
Ah.
The reason we say "RNAV to FUTBL" is precisely so you can check and make sure that is the first fix in your box. But it isn't a clearance or instruction the way "proceed direct FUTBL" would be. It's just a reminder, and we only have to say it when there are parallel-runway departures. It's to ensure you don't turn into the other guy.
If you were assigned a SID that starts with pilot-nav to a fix and there aren't simultaneous departures off the parallel, or the SID has a pre-determined heading to fly, we aren't required to restate the SID with the takeoff clearance. But I see how it could be helpful as a final check.
dodexahedron@reddit
And some controllers will just repeat your clearance to you anyway even if it is identical to the SID or to whatever you got from CD (who might even be in the same room), and even though you already read it back to CD not long before your takeoff clearance.
I am not a fan of that, because then Im scribbling down tje clearance for readback...only to see that it is wat I already have, and that I didn't need to try to write their sometimes way-too-fast-even-for-shorthand instructions down. Again.
Most are better than that, though, and will give you an amended clearance (after preparing you for exactly that) if they need to, and then they substitute the rest that is unchanged with "and then as filed" or an "expect vectors" or something much simpler in the cockpit.
rFlyingTower@reddit
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Been seeing some debate about this on the line
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Lost_Cockroach6702@reddit
It depends on the situation. For a diverse departure it’s safe to just turn on course.
If there is an ODP then you should comply with it first if you don’t want to be a statistic.
MarcusFelonius@reddit
I don’t think they’re asking about ODPs/obstacle clearance, but rather whether they should fly directly to the first fix or join the course line to from the center of the field to the first fix. I am in favor of the latter.
ChiefDaddyJ@reddit (OP)
Yeah this is what I was asking
theshawnch@reddit
On course would mean follow your clearance route unless there are other instructions.
If you didn’t request it and ATC didn’t assign it then technically you don’t have to fly the ODP. So yes if there’s no “fly X heading or climb via SID” etc then you could technically turn direct to your fix after takeoff.
You’re still responsible for obstacle clearance though so it’s probably a good idea to fly the ODP and then proceed to your route.