What do you think will happen to all the Airbuses with Spirit gone? I took this picture in 2018
Posted by labtec901@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 154 comments
balsadust@reddit
They will go back to the leasing company. They will be sold or leased to new airlines all over the world
NotACompleteDick@reddit
They will be retrieved by their owner. They will be leased to other airlines. New liveries will be applied. The aircraft interiors will be stripped and refitted with appropriate seats and equipment to suit the new airlines. There are nearly 8,000 A320 family aircraft on order, some airlines are probably quite excited to pursue these.
Globalruler__@reddit
Wait. Airlines don’t own the planes in their fleet?
SnapShotFromTheSlot@reddit
Some do some don't. They don't do it as much anymore but I remember back in the '80s Delta used to code their aircraft by the tail numbers. If a tail number ended in DL it was Delta lease, if it ended in DA it was Delta asset meaning they owned it. There was also DE but I forget what that meant. It's been a long time.
BRUNO358@reddit
There's also DN too, N666DN (a 757) being a funny one. 🤘😈
SnapShotFromTheSlot@reddit
What does DN stand for?
nthpwr@reddit
DEEZ NUTZ
DeezNutz23@reddit
Yup
vapemyashes@reddit
Yassss
AirplanesMakeMeHard@reddit
lmao got em
NetworkMachineBroke@reddit
That fool! He fell for one of the classic blunders!
Far-Lab-8377@reddit
Bam! lol
Ldghead@reddit
Boom! Roasted
Lost-Actuary-2395@reddit
Got em
abgtw@reddit
Maybe Delta NBA?
"Jun 2016 - leased from National Basketball Association (NBA)"
I assume Delta operates it for the NBA essentially.
Build-A-Pilot@reddit
Unlikely, most of Delta's 321s are DN
Mighty_Mufasa@reddit
Idk about operating it for the NBA specifically but it is used for charter flights for NBA teams
zhabesha@reddit
Oh no
TheVoicesSpeakToMe@reddit
This one has been used as a charter AC a lot recently. It came into my local muni within the past week iirc. I remember thinking “666 must be a unlucky ac to fly”.
BRUNO358@reddit
Yeah, Delta flies chartered 757s in and out of HOU where I mainly spot, always parking on the south side of the field where Wilson and JSX are.
007meow@reddit
DE was the subfleet assigned exclusively to German routes
Ungrammaticus@reddit
Ah, the Delta Eutschland fleet
vaska00762@reddit
Was that specifically for the West Berlin Air Corridor?
Rough_Bill_7932@reddit
Approximately 24% of Spirit Airlines' fleet was owned by the company, while roughly 76% was leased.
croigi@reddit
Now there is more, dz is one I see alot
Sowf_Paw@reddit
Some airlines will also lease engines separately from the aircraft.
SnapShotFromTheSlot@reddit
I used to crew a Lear 36 and we would have to send our engines to Michigan for overhauls and repairs every so often.
UglyLikeCaillou@reddit
Thanks dad.
Evening-Ad5765@reddit
No airlines “owns” their aircraft. Everything is financed. Aircraft leasing is a major business.
dromzugg@reddit
Often not their whole fleet. Different countries have different rules around this. Some airlines even have separate leasing companies to lease their own planes back to themselves for financial reasons I'm not smart enough to understand or explain.
Tjaeng@reddit
Fenc58531@reddit
Number 4 is wrong. Creating your own lessor (SPV) is usually done for debt issuances. Ie I sell and leaseback my planes to a SPV, the SPV then issues bonds, where the cash flow of the lease is used to pay interest.
vaska00762@reddit
GAAP or IFRS Rules generally don't apply to a true SPV.
True Special Purpose Vehicles are Orphan SPVs, which are bankruptcy remote entities set up to prevent the liability that comes with Debt/Securities Issuance.
The Orphan SPV, which owns the asset, is usually the entity which is the Borrower within a Syndicated Loan. Generally, the Beneficiary Company is specified on the Syndicated Loan, and will the company that actually repays the Syndicated Loan. It's also typically the Guarantor Entity.
Orphan SPVs are generally owned by non-profit organisations, though trusts do the job too.
I've actually encountered Orphan SPVs in my day job, though they're usually in the maritime sector, either cargo ships, or FPSO ships for LNG extraction projects.
I've never seen an SPV for aircraft, but in my day job of financial sector Enhanced Due Diligence, I suppose we wouldn't need to do as much work. Ships being involved require us to work out IMO numbers for sanctions screening, and then also understanding the last 6 months of ship movements to ensure no travel to sanctioned jurisdictions, and then also pulling data from the relevant Classification Society like Lloyds Register, to understand if the ship could transport sanctioned goods. They call this "Know Your Vessel".
The most common form of Orphan SPV are Collateralised Loan Obligations. CLOs were a big thing in the 2008 Subprime Mortgage crash.
Loan Notes are a whole type of Security I do not comprehend.
mduell@reddit
Buying a plane is more like getting a mortgage, since none of the airlines have the cash for it and will take a secured loan.
Leasing is more like renting.
AgKnight14@reddit
I have no experience selling aircraft, but I do know a lot of commercial “leases” for heavy machinery are treated legally as secured purchases. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the same way for some planes.
Basically, if the lease payments add up to near the purchase price, or if the item is expected to have little/no value at the end of the lease term, or if the lessee has the option to buy the item for basically nothing at the end of the lease term, it’s probably a disguised purchase
mduell@reddit
Yea aircraft aren't like that. It's a lease like a car.
AgKnight14@reddit
That’s a broad characterization. Maybe major US airlines aren’t like that, but I did a quick search and see several court cases that discuss true leases vs disguised purchases for aircraft
mduell@reddit
Some of the first substantive sentences of that link describe exactly what's going on in a typical airliner lease:
So I don't know what you're on about.
AgKnight14@reddit
I’m talking about the next part of that section that contrasts a true lease with a finance lease
mduell@reddit
Yes, and those aren't what most airlines are doing with their aircraft leases.
BenjaminKohl@reddit
The first two are not quite right, buying a plane is like getting a mortgage and leasing it is like renting an apartment for a really long time
SeriousExtreme2792@reddit
Yes and no. It boils down to control of the asset. They are all basically leased. If the lease grants the lessee full right and control it is booked as an asset. If there are provisions in the contract that the lessor has the right to early termination, re-fit to the asset etc, then it is reported as an operating lease (rent). Lease to own in a sense.
I have less than two months to retire from airline accounting.It was a blast.
To this day I still stop and stare whenever I see a B747 take off.
OkClassic4567@reddit
Not sure why you were downvoted. IFRS 16 101
DullMind2023@reddit
Airline finance for dummies right there. Bravo.
ArtyMacFly@reddit
If you own them they will be taken away from If you go bankrupt. Depending on the county a mix of lease and ownership in different subcompanies makes the most financial sense.
derdubb@reddit
No most airlines lease. They lease them so they can write off the leasing costs. It’s more economical to lease vs own.
JayGerard@reddit
Take Southwest as an example. Most, if not all, of their aircraft are owned by them, approximately 550-650 of their almost 800 aircraft. The remainder are dry leased.
KONUG@reddit
Many are leased. Just like company cars.
Instead of paying the full price NOW, companies sometimes prefer to pay a fraction for it now and the full price (+ extra) over a longer period of time as it allows them to make more profit with the money that's still available, respectively not having to take debt to buy cars or planes.
Nok1a_@reddit
I guess its same as a car, you dont need to do the maintenance just run it, which will save you money
BenjaminKohl@reddit
Nah, not really the sane. The airline still maintains the plane, though their service contracts may be a little different.
NotACompleteDick@reddit
Some do, most don't. Even when they kind of do it's often through another company so that they can play financial games.
Brittle_Bones_Bishop@reddit
A lot of airlines lease, I know wide bodies take almost the entirety of their passeneger service life to pay back the cost of the aircraft so companies will lease them to airline's for how ever much and then once their initial passenger service life is over so they either go to budget airlines like spirit or are converted to cargo haulers or are parted out.
Whisky-354@reddit
Some do, some don't, some have a mix. In the case of Spirit they owned some and leased some, but sold I believe all of them or at least the majority of them to raise capital during the restructuring.
mnztr1@reddit
the fleet is quite young, they will be very much in demand.
HappiestAnt122@reddit
And somewhat contrary to the public perception everything I’ve heard has been that they take good care of them. Obviously any airline in the developed world is at this point taking good care of their planes by law, but from what I’ve heard Spirit had only only a very new but very well taken care of fleet. You aren’t picking up some plane with everything that can be MELed broken and barely skating by on inspections.
Capt_Bigglesworth@reddit
The smart move would be for Airbus to buy them back..
NotACompleteDick@reddit
Airbus make them to sell, not to own.
Difficult_Camel_1119@reddit
from the lessor? but why?
Capt_Bigglesworth@reddit
There’s a long wait list. If I was an airline with orders placed, I’d certainly be looking at buying airframes in good condition at a discount and then cancelling my original order or deferring my new build delivery dates. If Airbus takes these available airframes off the market, they can control the market price.
ConstableBlimeyChips@reddit
Spirit's entire fleet consists of 131 airframes in the A320 family (A320 and A321). Current backlog is over 7,400. This isn't going to make a dent in the price of a new airframe.
Capt_Bigglesworth@reddit
Obviously you’re not paid sales compensation. Nobody at Airbus will want to see orders cancelled due to a bunch of airframes coming back onto the market.
ConstableBlimeyChips@reddit
Okay let's walk through this logically;
1: Even if every single Spirit airframe leads to a cancelled order at Airbus, that would reduce their order backlog by less than 2%. A bad economic quarter would have more effect.
2: Any cancelled order would likely be from the tailend of the backlog. An airline expecting delivery of a shiny new A320 in three months time isn't going to cancel that order to buy a Spirit airframe they have to repaint and refit. As such, Airbus will have plenty of time to fill those delivery slots with other buyers.
III: Airbus ain't stupid. While I obviously don't have access to the contracts themselves, I have no doubt Airbus puts penalties for cancelled orders in there somewhere. Another reason why any cancelled order would almost certainly be from the rear of the queue.
IV: Basic corporate relations. Imagine being an airline waiting on an A320 delivery in a few years, you think you can jump the queue by buying a Spirit airframe only for Airbus to buy it and kick you back down the waiting line? I'm sure that won't sour the relationship.
E: Airbus wants these aircraft in the air as much anyone else. They make more money selling spare parts and maintenance support than they do selling the airframe in the first place. Having these aircraft sitting on the ground means they're not getting paid either.
F: Airbus is a manufacturer, not an airline. Say they buy the airframes, then what? They can't fly them in revenue service, that's not what they do. So they sell them on again? Then we're back to square one anyway. And buying them only to scrap them is another PR nightmare, not just because of what I said in point IV, but with the general public as well.
Might Airbus suffer a few cancelled orders here or there? Or might an airline decide to buy old Spirit A320's instead of placing a new order with Airbus? Absolutely, that will almost certainly happen. But that's still no reason for Airbus to buy back the Spirit airframes, they'd almost certainly lose way more money doing that than simply letting the market find a spot for these aircraft.
Difficult_Camel_1119@reddit
but the spirit ones belong to a lessor. The lessor will find a new client. If Airbus wants to buy them from the lessor, they will have to pay a lot
Capt_Bigglesworth@reddit
Nah. Just a bit more than anyone else.
QueefSeekingMissile@reddit
Some guy is trying to crowdfund the purchase of spirit airlines, and basically turn it into a worker owned company like Winco or something like that? He's got a lot of details to work out, but he's gaining some momentum.
https://letsbuyspirit.com/
HawkAlt1@reddit
What is he going to buy, the name and headquarters? Spirit didn't own their planes, and their leasing companies don't have to extend the terms to a new IP owner post shutdown.
QueefSeekingMissile@reddit
I have no idea. Hes just a man with a dream and today he's dressed as Steve Jobs and seems a little more unhinged than he did yesterday lmao
Nok1a_@reddit
to be honest I would not trust a company like that, I might be wrong, but and issue with a plane is not like a car, you stop on the hardshoulrd or side of the road...
QueefSeekingMissile@reddit
structures any other airline needs to keep their planes flying.What I'm talking about is just the means and method of acquiring the company. It's not about running it. Just who funds it... and how the profits are split. He's still going to need to set up whatever business infrastructure that every other airline has to keep their planes flying.
bendallf@reddit
Let’s save spirit who not be handing the airplanes at all for the foreseeable future. They would get everything they need from the aircraft leasing company. They would still need to purchase the spirit I.P. Rights at bankruptcy auction. Thoughts? Thanks.
bendallf@reddit
Crazy to say not a bad idea. Thou, he needs to focus on buying spirit I.P. at all costs. The planes are going back to their original owners at this time. So he would have to hire an aircraft leasing company to lease him one to three airplanes just to focus on the most profitable route for the foreseeable future and go from there. Unfortunately, he mostly likely would raised all the money to buy spirit turn key. Thoughts? Thanks.
Khyle_01@reddit
Some will and have already been scrapped.
yoyiyouo@reddit
Most airlines want the more efficient version of the a320, I doubt there are going to be many buyers, they might strip these aircraft for parts.
No_Excitement455@reddit
Airlines will want to avoid the Airbus with PW jet engine issues.
hchn27@reddit
Leased off to low cost Asian carriers
Seaguard5@reddit
I believe they’ll end up in the desert with all the other husks of past airframes.
That or the ones not too old to fly will be bought up fast by other airlines that need the planes and have them on production backorder to fill demand.
JKKIDD231@reddit
Who is Buying/Taking Back the Planes?
Lessors: AerCap and other lessors are receiving back a large portion of the fleet, particularly Airbus A320neo and A321neo aircraft.
CSDS Asset Management LLC: Purchased 20 Airbus A320-family aircraft for $533.5 million, serving as a "stalking horse" bidder.
Potential Buyers/Operators: Other airlines, including Frontier Airlines, JetBlue, and major US carriers, are considered potential buyers for the remaining assets and leased planes.
planefan001@reddit
United may be a good option too. They’re loading up on a ton of PW-powered A321NEOs.
Express-Way9295@reddit
I dont understand United's POV. United is down on the A350-1000 due to RR engine issues, but United is ok with the A321-NEO with PW GTFs, and their known issues.
andrewrbat@reddit
Theres no other closer replacement for the 757 than the 321 neo/xlr. It’s not a great replacement performance wise but it’s the closest you can get. The 350-100 has too much overlap with the 777/787 fleet to make sense for ua i believe.
planefan001@reddit
United does have orders for the A35K, only the A359, which is a great 777-200 replacement
andrewrbat@reddit
Id argue theres too much overlap between the 350-900 and the 777-200. And clearly ua needs to replace those but it may be better for them to use a combo of 787 models and the 777-300 to do the flying rather than setting up training, ans support for a whole new type rating. Ua has an all being widebody fleet and adding airbus now is going to cost them.
planefan001@reddit
They don’t have a lot of 300ERs in their fleet compared to the 200/200ER
Golgen_boy@reddit
The A35K are potential B777-300ER replacements.United's -300 ER fleet does not need replacing for a long time
C402Pilot@reddit
Most of those known issues have been solved. If you were an early adopter of the GTF you got screwed by the metal contamination issue. But after that was fixed they are pretty reliable. I believe most of the issues with things like seals were resolved a while back as well. Although I do think the smaller variants on the A220 still have problems with the fan liners.
photoengineer@reddit
God that metal contamination issue was a disaster.
planefan001@reddit
United’s issues with the RR Trent’s on the A350 is due to legal issues mainly.
fly_awayyy@reddit
United has a bigger issue with the A350 and ifs not engine issues. It’s pricing with RR hence why they’re suing them they won’t honor the old contract. So hardly a 1:1 comparison.
fly_awayyy@reddit
United already said they aren’t interested. Getting interior parts with supply chain challenges is going to be a pain and they don’t want to finish their brand flying high density planes. Meanwhile they receive about 1 new plane a week.
BenjaminKohl@reddit
There is a nearly 0 chance that these planes end up at other US airlines. The cost of converting the interior in the current times of supply chain and labor issues is simply a nonstarter. These planes will end up at carriers in south or Southeast Asia almost certainly, with the exception of the IAE powered 320/321ceos which have a shot at ending up at Finnair.
Single-Necessary2080@reddit
The retrofit on most the interiors will limit those who will purchase them for immediate use. For mainline IS carriers it will take 9 months per airframe to reconfigure the galleys, inflight entertainment and other changes. Additionally, the NEO engines present their own set of issues due to ongoing parts shortages to resolve engine component issues with the GTF engines when manufactured. It isn’t as easy as everyone says.
Alternative_Town_846@reddit
Spirit didn’t have the money to put the engines through shop (they don’t pay maintenance per month to the lessors). A lot of engines need expensive shop visits plus the turnaround time for these engines is c. a year or more. It might be a lot of these planes will go for scrap.
vapemyashes@reddit
New ownership group will rename rebrand the airline as Teen Spirit and their slogan will be “With your belts on it’s less dangerous”
tylerscott5@reddit
Somewhere not with another US carrier
daves1243b@reddit
Off to the desert, at least until jet fuel prices come down. The older ones will probably be scrapped before they fly again.
jaysvw@reddit
I'm guessing Marana and Phoenix / Goodyear are going to see tons of these show up over the coming weeks.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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nqthomas@reddit
Most were leases and will go to other airlines.
I_want_2b_on_a_beach@reddit
Several are parked today at DFW
Sacto1654@reddit
I have this feeling Delta may make a bid for the A321neo planes.
Go_Loud762@reddit
Sold or scrapped.
Those are the only options for the creditors.
Merker6@reddit
Most of them are leased, so they’ll just got back to the lessors and end up in other fleets
Go_Loud762@reddit
The lessors will do whatever makes the most money. Right now that is scrapping the planes,
AlaskaExplorationGeo@reddit
Why is a fully functional plane worth more as scrap
Azsickboi@reddit
Because there is a shortage of the P&W engines
NotACompleteDick@reddit
There are also nearly 8,000 A320 series aircraft on order. The engines aren't worth as much as the entire aircraft.
Azsickboi@reddit
True, but the higher value of the engines makes it more economical to scrap a plane
badkapp00@reddit
It's not just a shortage of engines. Spare parts got much more expensive over the last couple years. That's why it could be more beneficial for the owner of a plane to just scrap it, sell all reusable parts and sell the rest as scrap metal. Scrap aluminum is like $1000 per ton.
Vespajet@reddit
Azorra Leasing, as well as Delta and Breeze, have acquired some ex-Egpytair A220-300s for spares. Two ex-Spirit A320neos that were returned to their lessor last fall were scrapped for parts earlier this year.
Vespajet@reddit
https://simpleflying.com/3-year-old-spirit-airbus-a320neos-are-already-being-scrapped/
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
And how do you know this? Do you own an a320?
Go_Loud762@reddit
I can read and I have a brain.
You can too if you try.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
You could’ve fooled me
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
Crazy you’re being downvoted when the lessors have already been scrapping planes spirit returned
Go_Loud762@reddit
The parts are worth more than the sum.
fly_awayyy@reddit
It’s a two fold problem. You pull the engine of for planes that need them. Now you can’t get engines for that plane soon enough and the frame sits there idle and it becomes worth more in parts than sitting around waiting for engines.
Spider_Airman_1911@reddit
Other airlines will buy them
Have-a-nice-day321@reddit
Guess we might see a new episode of Cockpit Casuals featuring a Spirit airbus if they are contracted to fly planes back to the lessors.
Nutter-Butter-Nutter@reddit
They were talking about it on their podcast and said that there is almost no margin on domestic repossessions. Hopefully they take some on just for the content.
crash12190@reddit
Can’t wait.
skabberwobber@reddit
76% of their fleet is leased. The lessors should be making arrangements to have them moved elsewhere as needed. Most likey making smoking deals on new leases to have it handled for them.
"Hey I can can give you a killer deal on a A320... you just have to take delivery in DFW.... and you might need to schedule a paint job..."
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FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit
They are released back into the wild. The ones that adapt will find flocks and thrive. The rest will become prey for UPS MD-11's.
RandoDude124@reddit
They’re leased
Sorkel3@reddit
They are leased. The owners will take them back, re-lease them or depending on condition and age junk them and write them off
User_Error_6505@reddit
People that fancy themselves aviation afficionados: Do the aircraft get sent to orphanages?
JDLovesTurk@reddit
That 319 in your picture is now a Qantas plane. Other planes are already flying in Asia. Similar things will happen to the rest of Spirit’s former planes.
Powerful-Magazine879@reddit
They will simply be absorbed through sales and market releases, based on historical usage (e.g., total flight hours) worldwide. Some will go back to owners or be bought or released by the big guys. The older jets will most likely go to JetBlue, Frontier Airlines, etc.
fdwyersd@reddit
that livery is so unique... no more bananas
Historical-Order-689@reddit
IMMMM BAAACCCCKKKK
StockholmParkk@reddit
Guess whos back. back again
taft@reddit
spirit’s back. tell a friend.
MacGibber@reddit
Imagine the fights we could see in the aisles now!
MacGibber@reddit
This has my upvote!
Historical-Order-689@reddit
That will be an extra fee unfortunately, so unless you want to pay $50, you’ll unfortunately have to remove your upvote
ItsReallyLebron@reddit
They will go elsewhere and those god awful seats will be taken out lol
Kanyiko@reddit
The Pratt & Whitney aircraft and the older Airbusses will probably flood the market with a nice source of spares and skin tags for the coming couple of years. Some of the younger Airbusses (not the Neos) will see second careers with other airlines, either via auction or their lessors.
West_Good_5961@reddit
Most airlines don’t own their aircraft, they’re leased. There are news articles of Spirit A320s barely repainted (just painted over the logos, not even matched the yellow properly) at a Vietnamese operator as of today.
janchuks0073@reddit
That news article is before they even announced about them shutting down the operation.
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That_Public_4620@reddit
They’re all most likely going to be sold to other airlines or be returned to lessors. However, the aircraft that have issues with Pratt and Whitney engines will likely remain grounded until the engine problems are resolved.
anonymeplatypus@reddit
Arizona
Myfooty94@reddit
They will be transferred to different airlines hopefully. I miss 2018 btw.
an0m_x@reddit
i hate doing it, but ... the Spirit HQ already got moved into
TogaPower@reddit
How many of these posts are we going to get? Dude, just browse the feed. It’s already been asked multiple times.
EXploreNV@reddit
Ahhh the rare cross breed between a wet mop and a stick in the mud
BeatlesF1@reddit
They'll become ground buses.
E2TheCustodian@reddit
Miladic_Animations@reddit
Taking a page out of Iran's book, eh?
E2TheCustodian@reddit
https://imgflip.com/i/aqrhd6
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