Flight school is making me retake a 250 mile cross country
Posted by ArkansasSailor@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 271 comments
Hey there, I am flying at a part 141 flight school, and one of the listed requirements is that I need to fly a cross country with one leg of 250 miles and another leg of 50 miles. I flew in a straight line stopping at Airport A, then Airport B (250 miles from the starting point). On the way back, I needed to go to the restroom and landed back at airport A. When I get back, I’m told that I need to repeat the flight because I made an extra stop and there wasn’t a complete 250 mile leg. I’ve reached out to the Chief flight instructor and he says that the syllabus is very specific about the wording of the flight. Is there anything I can do? I feel so frustrated and it feels completely unfair that I wasted over a grand because I needed to go to the bathroom once on a 3 hour leg of a flight.
SSMDive@reddit
There is nothing in the reg that requires a single leg being 250NM.
§ 61.129 (a)(4)(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, **with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point**. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
Simply put you have to land AT LEAST three times and one of those landings has to be AT LEAST 250NM away from the original airport.
Read the Sisk letter https://www.faa.gov/media/14956
"As noted above, cross-country flight time is defined as time acquired during a flight that includes a point of landing that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure, not the original point of any flight leg. There is no requirement that any specific leg must be 50 nm. Moreover, a cross-country flight may include several legs that are less than a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure. Nevertheless, at least one leg of the cross-country flight, however long by itself, must include a point of landing that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure (i.e. of the flight, not of that particular leg). "
So you need to take off from "A" and you can land every 5 NM as long as you eventually land at a point greater than 250NM away from "A" and you must also do a total of at least 300NM.
So legally, they are wrong.
HOWEVER this is a 141 school. And they have an approved curriculum and you must abide by it. So it is possible they require a specific flight profile and you didn't meet it. They have every right to make you meet the flight profile they set. It is also possible that their DPE thinks it has to be 250NM without any other stops so they don't want to get into issues.
I had to re-fly my long IFR XC because the CFII logged my flights as GPS13/GPS31/GPS16/ILS28 and back then it had to be three DIFFERENT types of approaches and while I did an LPV/LNAV+V/LNAV/ILS I only had TWO different TYPES LOGGED. The CFII was called and he confirmed what we did, offered to send a revised LB entry, but the DPE said I did not qualify to take the checkride and I had to fly it again.
So this kinda stuff happens.
kevinpet@reddit
Question is what exactly does the school curriculum say. "he says that the syllabus is very specific" Okay fine. But is it in fact very specific?
AtrophiedTraining@reddit
Can believe I had to scour so much of this thread to find this comment!
The r/ArkansasSailor needs to go look at the black and white of the FAA approved school syllabus before blindly trusting what the big bad chief says.
Skymogul@reddit
IIRC this is an FAA requirement for your commercial cross country, not a flight school requirement
Turbulent_Anteater41@reddit
Nothing in 61.129 requires an individual leg be over 250. It’s a syllabus requirement, and unless there’s in house examining authority, one that a DPE is highly unlikely to notice.
Skymogul@reddit
Yes it does.
61.121(4)(i) -
fighterace00@reddit
Which I think highlights the original intention of the rule regardless of the 141 syllabus wording. It's meant to be a cross country, not a marathon. We shouldn't be discouraging students from stopping when necessary.
AtrophiedTraining@reddit
Yes 141 school has lost the forest for the trees...
Turbulent_Anteater41@reddit
Most of the time. But I’ve done quite a few 250s at night where FBO hours dictated a fuel stop would break up the 250 segment. Bathroom breaks. Weather delays. Etc.
PILOT9000@reddit
61.129 isn’t the governing statute for this guy’s 141 training. Also, checking to ensure the applicant meets the minimum requirements of the TCO is exactly what they’re looking for. Your comment should read this is something the DPE is highly likely to notice. I hope you’re not actually giving advice like this to students if you’re actually a CFI.
Turbulent_Anteater41@reddit
Also. It’s precisely why I mentioned a school with in house examining authority vs a normal 141 using outside DPE’s. I have trained more than 30 students in a university affiliated 141 environment that uses outside DPE’s. Never once did they ask to see anything other than the hours matrix in the syllabus. They did not ask to see individual lesson requirements a single time. I’m not advocating that you proceed to checkride without satisfying a TCO. I was just saying it’s unlikely to be spotted. And it is.
AtrophiedTraining@reddit
Miserable internet person was just trying to neg you. Wasn't worth responding to. These are the people I reserve deep sighs for.
Turbulent_Anteater41@reddit
Which is precisely why I said “it’s a syllabus requirement”. I’ve worked both 61 and 141, and am a gold seal.
showerstool3@reddit
141 Appendix D is where you’ll find the 142 requirements. 61.129 is irrelevant
Turbulent_Anteater41@reddit
So is 141 Appendix D since what’s in question here is an individual lesson on an approved TCO.
Hence why I said “it’s a syllabus requirement”.
Thanks for the lesson. I worked at a university affiliated 141 for 4 years, endorsing over 30 students while there, and serving as a check airman.
showerstool3@reddit
The 250nm segment is a 141 requirement therefore it’s a requirement for any 141 syllabus. This isn’t a school being strict about something, this is the school following 141 Appendix D.
Not sure why you’re being patronizing and acting like I was wrong to point out that 61.129 has literally nothing to do with the situation.
Congrats on all your hard work, that is cool but again 61.129 is irrelevant.
Turbulent_Anteater41@reddit
There are plenty of 141 syllabi that don’t exactly match appendix D. I worked at one where the verbiage was “from original point of departure”. It also had less than 120 hours on the commercial syllabus. If it’s approved, it’s approved.
I brought up 61.129 because there was a comment above asking if it’s an FAA requirement.
Since every 141 syllabus is (or can be) different, I mentioned 61.129.
Mrs_Fagina@reddit
Believe it or not, the first rule of aviation:
Pee when you can, not when you have to
VileInventor@reddit
Alotta is that you?
Mrs_Fagina@reddit
In Japan, men come first and women come second
Jrnation8988@reddit
My ex’s half brother did survey before getting to a regional. He used those bags that turn your piss into a gel a couple times.
Ok_Bar4002@reddit
That’s far more expensive than a Gatorade bottle
Jrnation8988@reddit
Yeah, but they’re also 100% less likely to spill piss on you
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
This screws onto a Gatorade bottle
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
$30, daym everything in aviation is more expensive.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
cheaper than a fuel stop
Upper-Collection9373@reddit
Pee factor😂
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Brilliant huh
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
He who can aim well…… Profits?
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
If your mushroom tip creates an air tight seal you'll end up building back pressure in the bottle and blowing your weiner out of the bottle while its still spraying piss on the yoke. Its not an aiming issue as much as its a pneumatic issue.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Humble brag
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
Ive done it twice, both in a car and it was very humbling to try to pinch the tip to stop the spay while being covered in urine that looks like Arizona iced tea.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Same exact experience. The girth creates a tight seal and the lack of length means it's an angle that doesnt really work.
The p factor from aircraft spruce I linked above does work
HateJobLoveManU@reddit
You guys have girth?
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
I've been instructed to drop a straw in the mouth of the bottle next to the shaft going forward.
Jrnation8988@reddit
Turbulence has entered the chat.
Miserable_Team_2721@reddit
This is an incorrect statement! I no longer use those bags when doing a long survey flight!
old_flying_fart@reddit
They're less than 1/2 the price of a bottle of Gatorade, and completely leak proof.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Disposable-Urine-Bag-12-PCS-Pee-Bags-Travel-Women-Men-800ML-Emergency-Portable-Urinal-Bag-Vomit-Bags-Unisex-Camping-Traffic-Jams-Pregnant-Patient-Kid/8051960023?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=103108134
If $1 to not spill urine isn't in your budget, flying may not be the right career for you.
Unless you're re-using your Gatorade bottles. Ewwww.......
mass_marauder@reddit
What if you add some jello powder to the bottle before hand?
luckeycat@reddit
Very unfortunate fruit punch
cptnpiccard@reddit
I believe they call them "diapers"
Canadian47@reddit
Mr. money bags there. I just used a zip lock bag with a baby diaper inside.
Cop_Cuffs@reddit
Gatorade wide mouth is TOO SMALL 😏 ~4.5" SALSA bottle is large enough to fit... and not pressurize.🍾
Carlito_2112@reddit
If you're gonna throw diapers into the equation, why not just wear one?
Canadian47@reddit
Depends.
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/user/Depend_Brand/comments/1sldbdc/bladder_leaks_affect_adults_of_all_ages_while/?p=1&impressionid=5667525958387838692&utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Nine-TailedFox4@reddit
Gonna regret that when you get thirsty and don't have any water left.
Anxious-Anxiety6426@reddit
I knew a girl who flew survey and would take coffee cups with lids every morning from breakfast 🤡
Spiritual-Matters@reddit
She sounds fun
shittyvfxartist@reddit
Those things are great for cross countries with long legs when you realllllly don’t want to take the time to stop.
I tend to cruise at 17k feet on long trips, so it saves from making the whole ascent again haha.
Rush_1_1@reddit
I literally pee every single chance I get, even if it's in bushes across from the closed airport for a night xc
olek2012@reddit
Haha this is a good one. Me literally peeing before starting the preflight and then going again immediately afterward
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit
Never turn down an opportunity to defuel - Ed
asdf4fdsa@reddit
Except when going in for an AME visit, then you must hold it!
bigbadcrusher@reddit
First one I did, I had gone absentmindedly before I left home. Realized it on the way to the appointment and stopped at every water fountain up to his office just in case
asdf4fdsa@reddit
I stupidly went to the bathroom upon arriving at the appointment. Luckily the wait and a zen moment of calm was able to squeeze out some more to pass.
Canikfan434@reddit
Anytime I’d show someone the airplane (172), they’d ask “where’s the bathroom?” I’d point to the FBO, and say “rule #1: always go before you take off.” A few years ago I want along with a friend from CLW to EYW to pick up my brother in law. He’d gone down commercial, finished his business early, and needed to get home. When we got down there, he was grateful and insisted on taking us to lunch. Three or four Pepsis later, we’re back at the airport, and I remember thinking “I should try and go-but I don’t feel like I need to, and I just wanna go home.” Well, about 30-45 minutes later, 8,000 feet over the gulf, those Pepsis came a knockin’! We canceled IFR and went VFR into Marco Island. Lesson learned!😂
PhilRubdiez@reddit
Full tanks and empty bladders.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
My pre flight before they get in with me isn't if they have to go to the bathroom.
It's CAN you go to the bathroom?
SnootsAndBootsLLP@reddit
I just took a 15 total hour cross country, it was absolutely awesome. Redoing this is just fun, mate, you’ll need the hours anyways.
Jrnation8988@reddit
The thought of a 15 hour cross country made my bank account’s butthole pucker significantly 😳
coldnebo@reddit
hmmm. $200/hr… $3000, 😳
daaaamn. but 250 nm @ 100 kts, 2.5 hours.
what did you do with the other 12.5 hours? 😅 /s
more serious question since I haven’t done cross-country yet: are you billed hobbs time or wall clock time? 👀
I don’t like to feel “rushed” 😂
SnootsAndBootsLLP@reddit
I did a huge loop around Colorado and Kansas + some slow flight for severe turb and a bit of storm avoidance throwing us off. Hobbs billing, usually the requirement is “one hour of flight time per rental day at minimum” though ive seen no requirements and I’ve seen minimum 4 hours per day which is always wild to run into lmao
SnootsAndBootsLLP@reddit
Hobbs! The rules I’ve run into are usually “at least one-two hours of flight time per rental day”
bryan2384@reddit
My school was Hobbs and you only paid if you got off the ground (we have long taxis here).
PhillyPilot@reddit
Most of these new pilots don’t actually like to fly. They’re just checking boxes
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
LPT take a pee bottle next time. Diapers are also cheap vs paying for another 2+ hour rental.
Odd_Conflict_1410@reddit
I’m genuinely confused by how you didn’t meet the reg if the reg you reference is 61.129. It says “One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.” Myself, and every pilot and CFI and DPE I’ve ever met conclude that it means you have to land at least 3 times (you could up land 30 if you want!) and one of the landing points (could be landing 15 out of 30) has to be at an airport that is at least 250 nm from the departure point. No one’s ever told me you have to fly a 250nm leg. In fact, my CFII suggested doing the xc over multiple days with more than 3 stops, so long as I logged it as one flight and one of the points was >250nm from departure point.
JSTootell@reddit
I was really confused on this, until someone said it was a 141 thing.
I have a soft 2 hour limit in my 150. I'd rather top off the tanks by then.
mkosmo@reddit
Except that it's 141 and they may have a requirement of a leg being >250nm.
Odd_Conflict_1410@reddit
Guess when OP asks “ is there anything I can do?” the answer is go get your part 61 license and take your check Ride with a DPE elsewhere?
jimcarroll_cfi@reddit
I’m a little confused on what rating this is for? Private long cross country is 150, and commercial us 309. The only 250 nm requirement is for the instrument raring, and that needs to be dual ( so theoretically the cfii would have talked about the school requirements?).
ArkansasSailor@reddit (OP)
Commercial
jimcarroll_cfi@reddit
I don’t want to be too critical, but the school is wrong. As a commercial applicant, you may want to start pushing back — this won’t be the first time someone misunderstans the regs. They are referring to 14 CFR 61.129(a)(4)(i). 300 nm total distance, with a landing ar, AT LEAST 3 points, and ‘one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point’. So as long as one landing was at an airport at least 250 nm away from departure, you’re good. You can land and use the bathroom as many times as you like.
Flavor_Nukes@reddit
You didn't meet the requirements for the flight.
You're redoing it.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
Also, widemouth gatorade bottle in the flight bag
abite@reddit
Look at boss man here needing the widemouth bottles...
TemporaryAmbassador1@reddit
Someone tried an M&Ms tube once, didn’t go well
Wrong_Ad263@reddit
It is imperative the cylinder remains unharmed after all
RoweTheGreat@reddit
The cylinder is an attached to a larger structure and cannot be removed.
02SOMZ28@reddit
more importantly, the member cannot be harmed
Somedudechen@reddit
He’ll never live it down
Acrobatic_Recipe7837@reddit
Bannana for scale
MidNCS@reddit
u/smart_calendar1874
MidNCS@reddit
u/smart_calendar1894
Mission-Noise4935@reddit
Spoken like someone that's never had their dick stuck in a standard Gatorade bottle. Never again...
-soros@reddit
Way of the road bubs
spinfire@reddit
Could be a boss woman in which case the widemouth bottle is still useful.
Redfish680@reddit
Bothering with wide mouth bottles
reedog117@reddit
Not much you can redo but redo the flight. That being said, you should tell them to change their docs/handouts to explicitly state that any breaks (like a bathroom break, etc) will invalidate the flight.
Flyguy115@reddit
They don’t have to the FAA regulations are specific and tell you exactly what you have to do to meet the requirements.
I have personally seen examiners look through log books and pull up flight records to compare flights logged. I have witnessed people not only get booted out of a check ride for falsified records, but also the examiner reported the discrepancy to the FAA and have all their previous certifications removed for dishonesty. At that point they had to redo everything from the beginning of private certification. Even if the person does everything over again no airline, part 121 or part 135 company will ever hire you or trust you with a multimillion dollar aircraft.
reedog117@reddit
The FAA regulations are specific but that doesn't mean schools can't improve their training docs and handouts. Common sense - regulations are specific but why do you think flight schools have their own workbooks and curricula?
Flyguy115@reddit
A lot of aviation is about making the right decisions when people are not watching and you must be trusted to do the right thing. Let’s look at the totality of the circumstances. You made two other stops and didn’t think about or plan on using the restroom. You should have been completely clear of the requirements to complete the flight successfully before doing the flight. I’ll tell you this doesn’t look good as far as future aviation career.
SmoothAd7200@reddit
Not sure why anyone aside from his instructor and maybe chiefs would even know or care about this. NABD at all just more money to spend for him.
Impossible_Guide_12@reddit
Lmao relax dude, op needed to use the restroom and they did, yes they are going to have to redo the flight but saying “this doesn’t look good as far as a aviation career” is ridiculous. Like get over yourself. Assuming you have a current career you’re really gonna sit here and say you never made a silly mistake during your training at any point??
jemenake@reddit
Right. OP didn’t “waste a grand”. They received some very valuable education about ridding one’s body of as much “ballast” as possible before disembarking, asking oneself if they need to shed any more ballast at any intermediate stop, not consuming liquids too liberally during the flight, and having an emergency relief method; wisdom that I venture they’ll remember and heed for a lifetime.
ObjectOverall6639@reddit
I
ab0ngcd@reddit
That was flight school requirement, not an FAA requirement, wasn’t it?
Some planes don’t have that kind of range to make 250 miles non-stop. I know mine doesn’t.
BamppXx@reddit
Had to redo my 250 because i landed 1 hour and 2 minutes after sunset so it was legally a night landing. It’ll buff bro i hope you went to a different airport this time to change up the experience
Flyguy115@reddit
You just post it the same reg showing one of those legs must be at least 250nm from the original point. If you make a stop half way on the 250nm leg that leg is no longer a 250 nm leg. It has become two legs equaling 250nm which is not the same.
wattsinabox@reddit
For my PP checkride, my cross country flight had a leg which was exactly 50.0 NM. The examiner said it had to be over and made me redo it and then come back for the flight portion. We had done the verbal and passed it and he didn’t make me redo that or re-pay him.
His philosophy behind making me redo it was that he could, in theory, pass me on, but that maybe the next examiner would fail me because I couldn’t prove that I should have ever been a private pilot. The regulation does say “over 50 NM”, after all.
schaf410@reddit
On your next attempt, do the 250 mile leg first.
ArkansasSailor@reddit (OP)
To those asking, it wasn’t a situation that a Gatorade bottle would have helped.
ridindirty77@reddit
The dreaded hot snakes
limes_huh@reddit
Number Two.
Impossible-Bad-2291@reddit
Depends?
Glider__Guider@reddit
Wide mouth Gatorade bottle 😅
2svgeszn@reddit
Had the same thing happen to me once due to WX halfway there I had to divert to a airport out of the way, and navigate to another point to still meet the 250nm requirement. Was told I’d have to re-do it. In the end, I went out on a clearer day, and the hours helped me push towards commercial, and I was able to dual log all the lessons 2 in one flight and get done faster to pay the same regardless. It sucks at the moment but once it’s done you’ll be glad you finished it. Just stay positive and knock it out !
Flyguy115@reddit
Yeah this is not just a school, this is an FAA set requirement to met in order to take the Checkride for the certification. There is no was around it.
You made a mistake. Now you have to do it over correctly. Own the mistake and take responsibility for it. This also shows your character, level of honesty, trustworthiness.
SSMDive@reddit
FAA has no requirement that any leg be greater than 250NM... Please read the Fisk LOI.
Flyguy115@reddit
14 CFR 61.129 - Long Solo Cross-Country: One solo cross-country flight of at least 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
If a pilot makes a stop in the middle of the 250 NM leg it no longer qualifies.
SSMDive@reddit
Incorrect. Read the Sisk LOI.
Pteromys44@reddit
The regs do NOT require a single non-stop 250 nonstop leg.
One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
It specifies a DISTANCE of 250 miles for a landing point- not a single LEG of 250 miles. 3 landings is a minimum, not a maximum, you can make fuel stops, bathroom breaks along the way. Some planes (like mine) simply don’t have a 250-mile range
Big discussion here: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/commercial-long-cross-country-c150.146095/
JellyRemarkable207@reddit
Part 141 regs are different.
One cross-country flight, if the training is being performed in a State other than Hawaii, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles; and
PhillyPilot@reddit
Would you rather go to the checkride and be told by the DPE that it doesn’t qualify? Because that’s what will happen.
skydiveguy@reddit
You can tell how old someone is based on how much water they consume.
Gen Z is the most hydrated generation in history.
The long XC is designed to test your ADM and you demonstrated poor ADM.
Personally, if you insist on drinking water then do the 250 mile leg first.
Yeahnotquite@reddit
“If you insist on drinking water” lol
I’d argue maintaining proper/ optimal health condition by properly hydrating *is* proper ADM, and that dehydrating yourself to avoid a bathroom break is creating a potential issue. Ever had a dehydration induced migraine? Or tremors?
However- OP should have worn depends or used a pee bottle
skydiveguy@reddit
If this moron cant go 3 hours without peeing, he is drinking to much.
Again, i can tell you are also young because youre defending them.
The whole "hydration" thing is just asinine.... those of us that grew up in the 80's didnt need to take a drink of water every 15 mins and we turned out fine.
The whole hydration thing is marketing and "influencers".
Yeahnotquite@reddit
Bwahahhahahaha
You can tell I’m young?
Tell me how, embarrass yourself, then I’ll tell you how old I am.
TornadoTim60@reddit
Pro-tip: Empty 32oz Gatorade/Powerade bottle. Trim the plane as best you can, and don’t wait til it’s a bathroom emergency to use the bottle. Stash it in your backpack and dump it into a toilet when you’re done.
Cop_Cuffs@reddit
Gatorade wide mouth is TOO SMALL 😏 ~4.5" SALSA bottle is large enough to fit... and not pressurize.🍾
FiberApproach2783@reddit
Very sad day to be a woman😔
capn_starsky@reddit
Shewee to the rescue!
nightlanding@reddit
My wife managed over the ocean, where there is a will there is a way and thank God for extra Tupperware that until recently held our lunch 😄
sjmuller@reddit
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CDVKZD2M
Hamsalad1701@reddit
You have to repeat it. On my Commercial long cross country I had to to the bathroom bad on my 250 mile leg. I wanted to stop so bad but I knew if I stopped I would have to repeat it. As soon as I landed I got out of the plane fortunately, the FBO had a golf cart out there waiting and took me to the FBO. I learned a valuable lesson, don’t have a latte before you leave!
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
I thought you were going to say...always request a golf cart.
Hamsalad1701@reddit
That too!!
dakinestaydakine@reddit
One thing not being mentioned much in the comments, but I see every day as an instructor: “I was told x…” One great takeaway from this experience (and it was “experience” btw… that thing that makes us become better pilots) is to realize how important it is to know firsthand what the regs say and where they say it. Every time someone mentions a policy or procedure, challenge yourself (not them) to understand where that particular policy is written and who “owns” it. FAR? ICAO doc? Company manual? POH? You’ll constantly be facing situations where you have to interpret an event in light of this body of knowledge and make a “command” decision. Knowing and understanding the source material really helps speed this process and lowers your stress.
This will make a great story in your airline interview a few years from now 😉 Try to enjoy the second XC and have fun being airborne!
JourneyOfDaor@reddit
Condom catheters are a thing and are easy and cheap to acquire. Even foley catheters are already and cheap to acquire (if OP is female and has a medical friend to assist with proper, sanitary placement this is the way).
Obvious_Potential120@reddit
Sounds about right
Pteromys44@reddit
Nowhere in the reg does it say that a 250-mile leg has to be nonstop
Obvious_Potential120@reddit
Straight line of at least 250nm from the departure point
paviator@reddit
Wear depends next time
ssheisty@reddit
You literally said it bro, you didn't do a straight 250 mile leg, if you don't understand that a 250 mile leg means flying 250 miles without ever stopping, then you shouldn't be a pylote😂
Pteromys44@reddit
My vintage taildragger has maybe a 160 mile range on a tank of gas
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
next time, don't tell them that you had to return for a bathroom break
Flaky_Summer_9800@reddit
Well you’re gonna need the hours eventually, so it isn’t a complete waste. But yeah your repeating the lession.
DelightfullyTacky26@reddit
I would totally be pissed off.
Gwaiwar@reddit
I get the urgency and it really sucks. Sucks more that you’re flying airplanes🛫. During a long career of flying helicopters 🚁 I did have the same urgent need twice but both times I was able to find apparently unowned or at least unused small fields. Easy spots for an emergency Piss-stop by helicopter but not possible for you fixedwingers.
But now I’m retired and the only flying I get in is with my Paraglider in which it is quite common to be able to stay aloft for hours since we rely only on mother nature to provide thermal lift since there are no engines involved. Most of us pack a Pee tube for longer flights. It is Condom-Catheter, basically just a long flexible rubber or plastic tube connected to a condom. You slip that on and run the tube down your pant leg and out of your harness so you can sprinkle your yellow rain on the ground below 💦🌧️👇🙆🏼♂️☔️. Just be careful there are no kinks in the tube as the resulting backsplash will be unexpected and probably very messy🌊. Experience talking 🙄😂
olek2012@reddit
It sucks but you have to redo it! And look at it on the bright side, long XCs are very fun. Pick a different new spot this time and enjoy the trip!
You’ll find people and regulations in this industry are very specific. Even if you don’t know or understand the reasoning in the moment, it’s best to follow the rules. It will usually become apparent as time goes on.
PositiveRateOfClimb@reddit
Similar thing happened to me during Private. Was going about on my solo XC first 2 legs went perfectly fine and then on the 3rd a convective sigmet popped up over my home airport. Had to divert to another airport and sit tight. It didn't disappear until night time so they sent a C172 with 2 CFI's to come rescue me. Had to redo it again the next day lol.
According_Tree_7892@reddit
Thats an expansive piss
lainposter@reddit
Welcome to Aviation, buddy.
C-130guy@reddit
I’m not your buddy pal
UnknownLXA@reddit
I'm not your pal dude
ProfessionalLoad1727@reddit
I’m not your dude man
iridesc3nce@reddit
I'm not your man bro
HardCorePawn@reddit
I'm not your bro, guy
n00ik@reddit
I'm not your guy mate
CryptographerHuge682@reddit
Im not your mate, friend
aviapaul@reddit
I‘m not your friend, amigo
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
AND MY AXE
ssheisty@reddit
You son of a bitch
Impossible-Bad-2291@reddit
I'm not your guy, buddy.
MrPlake@reddit
Should of pissed at airport A
ssheisty@reddit
Should have*
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
You were told a leg needed to be 250 miles, you didn’t fly a leg that was 250 miles and now you are crying about “It’s not fair”?
Not understanding why you need to complete a requirement you don’t complete is a bigger issue than a couple more hours you would need anyway.
Your entire life is going to be full of requirements you don’t like or disagree with. Learn to meet all requirements now.
Ok-Needleworker-2797@reddit
Why do other human animals get to decide requirements for other human animals to do what they want? In what other species is this retardation allowed?
ssheisty@reddit
Calls requirements retardation
Makes this comment
Rusty1031@reddit
because we want people who know wtf they’re doing in the cockpit so people don’t die
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
pilots should not be smoking pot man
billofbong0@reddit
Did you really think this was a smart comment
flightist@reddit
The last paragraph is key. The currently approved TCO says X, you must do X. Even if it could say Y.
tempskawt@reddit
141 syllabus interpretation is up to the flight school. Unless you’re asking if the flight meets 61.129(i)? If that’s your question, then yes it does meet that.
Pilot0160@reddit
61.129 doesn’t matter if it’s a 141 syllabus
tempskawt@reddit
That’s what I said
Select_Respond_8627@reddit
You are aware that aeronautical experience requirements for 141 aren't in part 61?
For this requirement for Commercial it's: 141 Appendix D 5(a)(2)
tempskawt@reddit
Yeah that’s why I phrased my comment that way. I explained why their specific 141 scenario can’t be answered by Reddit without more detail, but I pointed out that they might be confusing the 61 and 141 definitions.
indecision_killingme@reddit
We’ve all got to get the flight time somehow.
You made a mistake, but it’s not as expensive as you think.
Learn and move on
Competitive-Turn3266@reddit
I’d ask what req are you trying to fulfill - because if it’s the comm 300 with 1 landing 250nm from departure airport - then the extra stop shouldn’t matter , in fact you need 3 of them anyways … I’m not sure of any other req you’d need this requirement - so all y’all talking trash … stfu :)
Sounds like the flight school whack AF
real_ramphex@reddit
He's part 141, the requirement you mentioned is part 61.
Competitive-Turn3266@reddit
Oh nooooo - I found the reg , I suck againnnn
Pilot-Imperialis@reddit
The bad news: this is cut and dry. You didn’t meet the requirements. You have to redo the flight. Blame the FAA if you must.
The good news: these hours are a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of time you need before you can get a job. Just redo the flight and chalk this up to experience.
bhalter80@reddit
There's no blame for the FAA here they didn't make op divert to airport A before getting to airport B and screw his 250nm leg.
Pilot-Imperialis@reddit
Oh I agree, my point being, the school’s 141 course is beholden to the FAA. They’re not getting him to spend all that money again just because they want to.
bhalter80@reddit
My biggest advice for this is fly faster planes. I did my commercial XC in 2.5 hours in a Bo while going from Nashua to IAD to visit the air and space museum
keikioaina@reddit
Drop in the bucket. If only he HAD a bucket.
billtho111@reddit
Sorry but if the regulations aren't met it doesn't count. I've had this happen a few times on students in my stage checks that come with their Commercial XC solo and not stopping at 3 points, just there and back. You don't meet the FAA requirements so yes you have to redo it unfortunately.
Far-Desk1199@reddit
Next time just pee in the aircraft
firmdood@reddit
I found myself in similar circumstances And only had a narrow top 12 oz water bottle and a dog poo pick up bag. I should have gotten extra credit for managing to pee in bottle, transfer overflow to doggy bag and managed not to send plane into spin.
Pitiful-Shoulder1508@reddit
I’ve done this flight at a 141. I peed in a bottle, you messed up unfortunately.
Mrfunkyclouds@reddit
The syllabus is pretty clear. You should be a little happy that your school even caught that. At lelast they are paying attention. This comes downnto poor pre flight tho. Should have prepared better or brought a bottle or somthing. It sucks but thats how it is.
Wyd when your flying pax later in life and you have to go to the bathroom. In an airliner sure, youll go to the bathroom. But everything before that? No. Your not going anywhere. Plan better.
blimpmech@reddit
You gotta do it again but with a pee bottle this time
Remarkable_Mud_5718@reddit
It’s for commercial you need to fly 300nm in which the first leg is 250nm and you need to go have three stopping points. Example: KDTO-KLQQ-DURANT-KDTO.
LookItsEric@reddit
You could show them CFR § 61.129(a)(4)(i) and see what they make of it, but as a 141 school they can just tell you to kick rocks. Don’t be too bummed if that happens, though. You’re probably going to need to build hours before you meet the requirements for the check ride anyway, so you can just think of this as getting that done early.
mirassou3416@reddit
It's 14 CFR Part 141 Appendix D but same requirements for a 250 nm leg
LookItsEric@reddit
oh right, he did say 141
Largos_@reddit
Always do the longest leg first. Idk why people have such a hard time with this. If I gotta do a 250 leg and something happens on the way there where I gotta stop, well guess what I can do the 250 leg on the way back. If I wait to do the long leg for my return, it leaves no room for error.
Gwaiwar@reddit
You needed to pee. Such is life but the requirements were not met, that’s just the way it is. They can/should not fudge the records and if it was discovered on their next FAA Audit you’d both be in some trouble. Empty your bladder and go do it again. You didn’t say if you’re M or F either way you can buy the appropriate piss bottle for in flight bladder relief in case it gets that urgent. Good luck 🤞
veeeecious@reddit
Part of flight planning doesn’t include what to do if you have to potty?
Xames@reddit
You shouldn't have logged the detour
ltcterry@reddit
One of the things that's incredibly important to me as a successful instructor is the *client* be totally familiar with the requirements for the next certificate or rating.
As is now clear the school is not making you *retake* anything. You have an unmet requirement that still needs to be met before you meet the aeronautical experience requirements for Commercial under your school's TCO.
One of the benefits of 141 is getting certificates in fewer hours. But it's not Part 61 less a few hours. There are rules, sometimes unique to your program, that you have follow.
A couple years ago I got a call from a guy looking to prep for a Commercial checkride. He had been turned away by the DPE for not being qualified for a checkride he had already failed once. Yup. First DPE reviews the logbook and sees 10 hours TAA time. Gives the practical test. Dude fails. Preps with a different CFI. Goes to a different DPE. The new DPE says "you have 1.5 hours of dual TAA time and 8.5 solo. You need ten hours TAA/Complex *dual.*"
The guy failed a practical test he never should have taken! He didn't finish with me. Went wherever his new girl friend was. No idea what happened after that.
The story shows there are a lot of shitty instructors out there. But maybe I shouldn't say "shitty" responding to a "code brown" story.
OP - it's an expensive lesson, but at least you'll learn from it!
Legitimate_Repair922@reddit
Your flight school is right. You didn’t meet the requirements. You are going to spend your professional life in an airplane; understanding that stopping to take a piss costs real money is a good lesson to learn early.
First rule. Go to the bathroom. Second rule. Check the oil.
SaratogaFlyer@reddit
invest in these immediately… I never depart without one in the plane:
https://www.amazon.com/Travel-John-66911-TravelJohn-Disposable-Urinal/
bhalter80@reddit
The requirements are extremely clear, you were PIC and solely responsible for your flight. I don't see any conversation with the chief where you come off as anything other than whiney
Mazer1415@reddit
Is there an alternate route to fly so you go somewhere different?
Micah-point-zero@reddit
I loved my first cross country, take it as a shot to do something again you’ll look back fondly on
discgolfpilot@reddit
Sounds like why that is a requirement. Flying longer flight and holding it in is kinda part of the job
CFIgigs@reddit
Go somewhere fun.
flyingscotsman12@reddit
You need to spend another three hours practicing your profession/hobby? Sounds like a non-issue to me. Once you get your license you'll be buying hours just for fun and practice anyway. Just enjoy the ride.
Turkstache@reddit
That sure is available to some of you.
LostPilot517@reddit
Gosh, I will never forget my solo 250NM CC. I went pee before I left, and just thought it was nerves starting out, starting up the bird.
After 45 minutes I really had to go, I attributed it to nerves as I hadn't stopped thinking about it since departure... 15 minutes later I really really needed to go.
This also happened to be the point where I had to step up to ~10.5K for best glide as I had a section of Lake Michigan to cross, and stepping up kept me out of a wet footprint.
Of course the lake crossing also added a turn in the route, right into a 50kt headwind on the nose.... It took me 2 more hours fighting that headwind to make it to my destination. I was in so much agony... Only thing I had was a full Gatorade bottle, and no window that opened. I couldn't stomach drinking anything, and feared I was going to overfill the bottle if I did. Once you start, no stopping that process.
I somehow made it to my destination and did not pee myself. I about collapsed in groan spasms after the 2nd bladder drain in a row.
I will never do that again, and have never made a passenger due the same in my career after. I have no problem diverting and taking a break if one is needed.
Flight school didn't permit deviations from the approved flight plan, and I was to nervous to reverse my plan, and land 45m-1h short of the original destination and fly the 250 leg on the backside. Really painful passing that airport with 1hr still to go.
I didn't need to redo my CC, so it probably saved me like $1500 not having to repeat that lesson, but oh my, that was miserable and a learning experience.
TravisJungroth@reddit
I think school/childhood distorts our idea of what "fair" is. When the consequences are things handed down from people above us, things like having to pay an extra grand because you needed a bathroom stop feel (and maybe are) unfair.
That's not how it works in the "real world", or with consequences that aren't even man-made. You can lose a $40,000 engine because of a $40 part. Maybe it's not even anyone's fault. It's just what happened.
I think you can tell when people haven't outgrown this mentality when they always talking about consequences in terms of "being punished" (not that you did).
I assume you're not "in trouble" for this. You just need to do the flight.
By the way, depending on how you end up getting your licenses and doing time building, this may end up costing you nothing extra. You'd need the hours anyway.
mirassou3416@reddit
Think of it this way...better than the guy who was on here the other day who realized he was signed off, passed his checkride, saw the mistake in his log book having never completed the 250nm leg and was wondering what do do
nightlanding@reddit
What would you have done if that three hours was over the Atlantic Ocean? I have run for the nearest bush after long over-water legs. You need to do the flight over and you need to think on not being able to stop for any reason in mid trip.
ArkansasSailor@reddit (OP)
That’s a fair point, I appreciate it.
mirassou3416@reddit
Easiest for me is a zip lock bag with a wad of paper towels
LigerSixOne@reddit
For anyone just starting out, do not just blindly do whatever your instructor tells you. Everything you are told is a requirement by them is explicitly written out in part 61. Before you drop thousands of dollars to meet those requirements READ THEM! They aren’t long and they aren’t hard to understand.
mirassou3416@reddit
In his or her case it's 14 CFR Part 141 Appendix D, but same requirement applies
scottyh214@reddit
If your wheels were not off the ground for an entire 250 mile leg, you did not meet the requirement.
N0t_N4dr0j@reddit
That doesn’t make sense? The only XC I can think of you’re doing is the commercial 300. One point of landing needs to be a 250nm Straight line distance from your airport of origin. But it doesn’t have to be a 250nm leg
ilikewaffles3@reddit
Ya got screwed with an ifr flight because of this as well. Definitley piss at the destination airport if you can or bring some bottle/diaper
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
According to the OP, he needed to send a brown email...not yellow.
saml01@reddit
Airport A is not 250 miles from the starting point, its only 200. Should have kept it in to airport B, got out, peed and kept going.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
It wasn't pee...he needed to leave a steamer.
swa73driver@reddit
Don’t complain, do it, be better than old you, be better than the next candidate at the captains board,
NotYourAverageJoe99@reddit
I got a UTI on my long XC because I was terrified of making an extra stop on my trip and having it be contested. It's crazy, it sucks about the money, but at least you'll get more solo pic experience which is so vital these days and will set you apart from all the other people out there hopefully.
dilemmaprisoner@reddit
I think the Commercial requirement is only that one airport be at least 250 nm straight line distance away; not that the leg be that long in the air (you could stop 10 times). But, I don't know if a 141 is different (I doubt it).
It is easier to write all the requirements with fewer words when you say it that way; I saw a similar thing with some schools description of PPL requirements.
But again, I think part 141 schools might get their curriculum approved by the FAA; that might mean they can't wiggle out of it even if you met the § 61.129
OddGuard3986@reddit
CFR Part 141 appendix D states the minimum curriculum for part 141 and states that a segment must be a straight line distance of at least 250 nautical miles. The difference between part 61 and 141 is that the 141 explicitly says a segment must be completed. Regardless of which school is attended, all will have one leg of at least 250nm in part 141.
makgross@reddit
No “wiggling.”
It’s part 141. The syllabus is approved. If it says a 250 nm leg is required, then it is. And 249 nm doesn’t count.
flightist@reddit
The last paragraph is key. The currently approved TCO says X, you must do X. Even if it could say Y.
ReliefRevolutionary8@reddit
Just redo it. That was a practice run.
oneothergamer@reddit
This is pee in a jar to get the flight done territory
capn_starsky@reddit
Sounds like OP had to shit.
GreekStaleon@reddit
Bring a pee bottle next flight. On my 250 mile leg I was about to explode as I landed back at my home airport. Had a pee bottle with me every long XC since.
capn_starsky@reddit
OP mentioned it might have been a code brown. I recommend a Homer bucket and trash bags!
DisregardLogan@reddit
Hours is hours man, just one drop in the bucket.
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
I think the problem is a lack of a bucket in flight this time.
DisregardLogan@reddit
The humble Gatorade bottle:
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
As long as you didn't bring yellow Gatorade or you make sure you don't get confused!
tylerbibo@reddit
This is why you always fly in loose basketball shorts
Yuri909@reddit
Stream in the Gatorade bottle.
Fun_Job_3633@reddit
Depends makes makes a leak proof adult brief with an odor seal. The outline won't show through most pants unless they're skin tight or paper thin material. Not saying...just saying.
Phillimac16@reddit
I feel ya, I had to do a triangle flight as part of my PPL at a 141 and upon reaching the furthest away airport it was way too windy to land so I diverted to the other airport 50 miles back. I ended up completing the whole flight as planned but they made me re-do it because I didn't land at the airport. The funny thing is, if they relied solely on ADSB data I could have got away with it.
HistoricalWriting299@reddit
It has been like that for at least 25 years. You can't stop on the long segment. FAA requirement, non-waivable.
Wemest@reddit
Need to redo it. Not only did you not complete the requirement but it shows poor planning.
RealP4@reddit
That sucks tbh but yea…you still have to redo the flight. It’s not the schools fault
Awallboomin@reddit
Best advice I got for you is getting an empty wide mouth Gatorade bottle for long hauls, hours is hours and you didn’t meet the requirements. End of the day it’s just more time you’ll need.
ryancrazy1@reddit
I’m just wondering how they got sent on a long XC without even understanding the requirements of what they need to do?
Ok-Motor1883@reddit
That’s why 141 is usually not the best option for training. Overly rigid rules. No way around it though where you’re at but part 61 would offer much more flexibility for others starting out reading this.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
The flight didn’t meet acs requirements for what I can assume is a commercial cross country. It’s not the schools fault.
jhj0604@reddit
As a cpl applicant... or any applicant you really gotta know the requirements of the the license YOURE pursuing
KehreAzerith@reddit
Just redo it, it's not a big deal, yeah it's expensive but it's an easy fix. Better than going to the checkride and realizing you didn't meet the training requirements. Anyways, more PIC time is never a bad thing
Wiley357@reddit
Look at it this way: flying it again just increases your total time/experience
When you're searching for that very first job in your aviation career, you're going to be scrounging for every possible minute of flight time you can find to make yourself more marketable. Take what you can get whenever you're able
thederseyjevil@reddit
A DPE will have a field day with this attitude.
kristephe@reddit
is this for your 61.129 requirements?
DinkleBottoms@reddit
They did stop. Twice actually, I don’t know why they didn’t pee at airport A or B on the first stop.
kristephe@reddit
I see what you mean. I just didn't think there were penalties for stopping extra.
FiberApproach2783@reddit
There technically isn't, but the requirement of the flight was one direct 250nm leg. If they had stopped extra at any other point it likely would've been fine.
VolubleWanderer@reddit
I’d redo it if I were you. (Part61 story)I argued with a student that his 250 XC didn’t count cause he broke it up into two days. We took it to our local FSDO and they didn’t care and neither did the DPE. I wouldn’t risk my logbook or career on it personally though and the flight school thought I was being too intense with it all.
Tman3355@reddit
Happened a lot at the 141 I went too. So much so that you were briefed at least 3 times, 2 times by the instructor and at least once by the flight supeb the morning of that you had to make 1 leg a straight 250 with no stops VFR. Anything other than that would require redoing the flight.
What does your 141 syllabus say? Thats what's controlling.
Secret-Support-2727@reddit
Unfortunately they are correct. If the FAA says 250nm it means it. And stopping in the middle means you didn’t complete the 250nm leg.
Frost_907@reddit
Bring a pee bottle next time
No_Motor5343@reddit
Contact your local fsdo if it is worth it but it probably is not worth the hassle at the end of the day. I have seen faa letters of interpretation that might back up your flight but i could tell you without specifics. https://www.faa.gov/media/14956
sandalsabsentsocks@reddit
Live and learn and remember to carry something to pee in. I worked with a lady when i flew survey who had to drop the kids off at the pool. She gave the controls over to her camera operator, who had a private pilot license, and did her business in a box in the back of the plane. Used dude wipes to clean up and carry on.
Multiple things are going to happen to you in this profession, you're going to learn to deal with it and keep a good attitude when you do.
Basic_Wishbone6605@reddit
Dude you need the hours anyway. Just go up and fly somewhere else
burnheartmusic@reddit
Well, ya. Unfortunately that’s on you
autonym@reddit
The point is to show that you can plan and execute a flight leg of that length. You couldn't.
Bladder management is almost as important as fuel management. If you can't wait 3 hours between bathroom stops, it's advisable to bring an apparatus for peeing while you fly. Depending on your anatomy, that could be as simple as a water bottle, or it could be more elaborate.
braided--asshair@reddit
In the near future you will be a CFI making donuts for pennies on the dollar barely scraping by just praying you get a student you can do cross countries with to build that beloved XC time so you can finish your RATP mins and get out.
At that point in time you will wish you flew more 250nm legs.
zman12804@reddit
I see what you’re saying, but a 141 syllabus requirement is a 141 syllabus requirement.
It’s odd though that their requirement wouldn’t be in line with the 141 regulations. All my students are free to stop wherever they’d like as long as they end up 250 nm away before coming back.
pedrolane@reddit
Just do it and get your license.
Ipad74@reddit
141 traning is more restrictive in general than 61, I think the latest FAA 141 training proposals do away with approved routes for cross countries, if I remember correctly. (Not the issue here, but an example how there are more restrictions.)
The FAA approved the syllabus, it can be more restrictive than the basic 61/141 XC rules.
Anyway, it appears you need to redo the long XC, unfortunately.
it sucks, but use it as an opportunity to hopefully fly somewhere else this time, once you get out of the training environment you will be seeing lots of unfamiliar airports, and it is good to know how to brief each one up despite not having any local knowledge.
Deadstick3135@reddit
Always exceed expectations if you want to succeed
dr_b_chungus@reddit
Never walk past a toilet without peeing.
AK-47893@reddit
I had the same thing happen on my long commercial xc, and I called my instructor to ask if I could land. He said I would need to redo the flight so I pissed in a cup and dumped it out the window
Accomplished_Beat418@reddit
“Hey, why is the rain yellow?”
Yellow_bus_driver@reddit
That’s an expensive lesson to learn. Good thing you need to time build anyway. Should motivate you to verify all your syllabus/FAR requirements going forward
Jrnation8988@reddit
Unfortunately for you, this is pretty cut and dry. You did not complete a 250NM leg. I get that it’s frustrating and expensive, but you’re going to have to do this one over.
pilot_eli@reddit
You have to look at the exact wording of the TCO/syllabus. If your flight doesn’t fit exactly within the confines of the syllabus, you will likely just have to redo the flight if you want to stay under part 141.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey there, I am flying at a part 141 flight school, and one of the listed requirements is that I need to fly a cross country with one leg of 250 miles and another leg of 50 miles. I flew in a straight line stopping at Airport A, then Airport B (250 miles from the starting point). On the way back, I needed to go to the restroom and landed back at airport A. When I get back, I’m told that I need to repeat the flight because I made an extra stop and there wasn’t a complete 250 mile leg. I’ve reached out to the Chief flight instructor and he says that the syllabus is very specific about the wording of the flight. Is there anything I can do? I feel so frustrated and it feels completely unfair that I wasted over a grand because I needed to go to the bathroom once on a 3 hour leg of a flight.
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