The only supersonic seaplane, the Convair F2Y Sea Dart, skipping on the water and struggling to take off, piloted by B.J. Long - project cancelled in 1957
Posted by Xeelee1123@reddit | WeirdWings | View on Reddit | 97 comments
Donlooking4@reddit
They didn’t think it through thoroughly. That the salt water would be very bad for the jet engine and its aluminum components!!!
retrobob69@reddit
That's just it. They did. Why the intake was moved. And they have had aluminum seaplane for a long time.
Donlooking4@reddit
Not an aluminum jet engined air plane.
Salt water is highly corrosive to aluminum period.
Especially when it is in the engine blades etc.
And if you actually think that just moving the intake to a different position would eliminate any salt water intake into the jet engine and then on the engine blades. Watch that video again and no matter where the intake is going to be it’s going to get salt water into it. And then onto the fan blades that are inside the engine. You have corrosion on the blades then you will have less thrust.
The other problem is that the water is much more friction on the surface of the plane itself. It is not like you are using wheels on a flat surface. The friction caused by the water made it very difficult to actually achieve takeoff speed.
If you listen to the video it says that take off speed was only achieved with the afterburner on. So basically you are burning way too much fuel just to achieve takeoff speed.
Basically it was a total failure of thinking through the possible problems of the entire plane. It was an utter failure.
retrobob69@reddit
My grandfather was on the team that built the planes. I know what was involved in building the plane. I also know what salt water does to aluminum, it's common knowledge. Funny thing about that tho. All the boats made out of aluminum that do fine. They do have coatings. The engine wasn't all aluminum. Also, check out the p6m. Or russin be-200. What failed was the double ski design.
Virtual_Area8230@reddit
When you read about the history of the Blackbird's engine, the J58, you frequently read, "was designed for a USN Mach 4 aircraft". Those designs were all sea planes.
purpleduckduckgoose@reddit
I'm sorry what. A mach 4 seaplane? What the...
TheBaneOfTheInternet@reddit
The idea was that for Soviet bombers to nuke the US they’d have to cross an ocean, so the USAF could intercept them earlier by designing a seaplane interceptor that launches from tons of small sea bases around the US’ natural borders
purpleduckduckgoose@reddit
Wasn't the plan for both SAC and the Soviet bomber force to fly north over the Arctic and down to their respective targets, hence NORAD?
chromatophoreskin@reddit
Takeoffs and landings were not designed to be done at Mach 4.
KerPop42@reddit
Yeah, but the idea of a hull being dragged up to whatever altitude you're hitting Mach 4 at...
ChocolateCrisps@reddit
The whole idea of Convair's seaplane designs was to largely eliminate the hull - careful wing and fuselage shaping could give them enough buoyancy and stability without needing much extra help
KerPop42@reddit
Huh, I was thinking a lot of the concern would be the structural strength to survive slamming the water like we see in the video
ChocolateCrisps@reddit
That behaviour was actually unexpected until the first prototype took to the water... Once they did realise, most of the development focused on testing new ski (and ski shock absorber) designs, but they never found something that could fully resolve the problem
DarthBrooks69420@reddit
Landing at mach 4 is not ideal but is always a possibility when going mach 4.
pinchhitter4number1@reddit
We might have different definitions of landing.
DarthBrooks69420@reddit
What are you talking about.
I learned the definition from the lyrics of John Mayer's breakout hit 'Land Into Me'.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Really?
AsleepNinja@reddit
i mean.... could be fun
Jacobi2878@reddit
Which aircraft are you talking about? I can't find any seaplanes that used the J58
Virtual_Area8230@reddit
https://www.amazon.com/Convair-Advanced-Designs-Projects-1923-1962/dp/1580072186
WarthogOsl@reddit
So it lands upside down?
Virtual_Area8230@reddit
Some did.
AresV92@reddit
Basically XB-70 seaplane edition.
Virtual_Area8230@reddit
But earlier.
Virtual_Area8230@reddit
https://www.amazon.com/Convair-Advanced-Designs-Projects-1923-1962/dp/1580072186
Late-Button-6559@reddit
This is like those dreams where your in-dream self knows you’re losing the magic ability to fly, but you need to fly one more time.
Pynchon_A_Loaff@reddit
One of my favorite, cool looking aircraft - that never would have worked. That must have been terrifying from the cockpit.
TheeParent@reddit
I believe these tests were performed in San Diego bay. The Sea Dart is outside of the Aerospace museum in Balboa Park.
Pynchon_A_Loaff@reddit
I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that all four remaining Sea Darts ended up in museums. The airplane was too cool looking to scrap.
AccordingTaro4702@reddit
I first found out about it when I happened to drive by one on display near Philadelphia. I was very much WTF?!? A jet seaplane???
Haplessflyers@reddit
I believe it is still there.
Arlington2018@reddit
For many years, an abandoned Sea Dart was parked at the Renton Municipal Airport next to the Boeing plant.
Few-Log6852@reddit
Another in Lakeland FL. Cool part of Sun n Fun was seeing that every year
Affectionate_Cronut@reddit
In the severe pounding, the structural integrity of the airframe was not compromised. The pilot is, however, in a gelatinous state, with every bone smashed into dust.
Plump_Apparatus@reddit
I get worried when my truck makes a new sound, some random squeak. If I find a drop of fluid under it I have to figure out what it is and where it came from. I heard a loud clicking sound last week from a rock stuck in the treads which I removed after finding it.
I could most certainly not be a test pilot. Just straight up panic attack, seven seconds into the flight.
RustedDoorknob@reddit
It kinda sounds like you should be though
ITakeMassiveDumps@reddit
Seriously. Attention to details seems lite a good trait for a test pilot.
Annual-Advisor-7916@reddit
"Look, we know that you show great attetnion to details, but you can't eject because the volume control of the radio is scratchy."
DarthBrooks69420@reddit
You're that guy half the groundcrew hates because every time you open you mouth it means they're going to have to tear the plane apart and put it back together again yet another time.
The other half loves you because if you crash and die, at least whatever happened probably happened up in the air.
Cthell@reddit
The XF10F Jaguar test program says 'hi'
Pynchon_A_Loaff@reddit
“There ain’t enough of you and none of you are big enough to get me back in that airplane”
Cthell@reddit
The correct response, considering what happened when the other test pilot tried it (10 out of 11 flights ending in forced landings)
Raguleader@reddit
Judging by the way this plane fights for its life to get airborne, you not panicking until seven seconds after that makes you sound like kind of a badass.
No_Juggernaut4279@reddit
That poor plane!
littlelowcougar@reddit
I have a beater truck and the amount of weird noises and fluid leaks it has is unreal. But very liberating… it’s a beater, who cares?!
saladmunch2@reddit
Just need to know the noises of the important things so you can fix early to keep her going.
Plump_Apparatus@reddit
Heh, my work truck is a 1994 F-250. Almost as old as I am, but mechanically it is pristine. She's pretty decent body wise too, for as old as it is.
worm_livers@reddit
To shreds you say?
AreWeThereYetNo@reddit
And his wife? … To shreds you say?
Worldly_Possible2925@reddit
Dust 🧐 Surely you meant Custard?
Snicklefried@reddit
Forgot to take the parking brake off...
Cramer19@reddit
There's one on display in front of the Sun n Fun aerospace museum in Lakeland. It's in very good condition too, I think they just repainted it not too long ago.
BigDaddySodaPop@reddit
It's at the San Diego Air and Space Museum.
Infuryous@reddit
There is one on display at the San Diego Air and SpaceX Mesuem.. Right next to an A-12 Oxcart
Virtual_Area8230@reddit
SeaMaster was damn near supersonic.
BakerOne@reddit
One of the sexiest planes ever made
Lucentjuffowuo@reddit
The sea master is beautiful lady.
Weegee_Carbonara@reddit
What a beauty!
Raguleader@reddit
The Cold War Shamu paint job has never been more appropriately employed.
Objective_Art111@reddit
It almost looks like an aquatic handley page victor
British_Rover@reddit
Hole shit I never new this existed and I knew about the
guinader@reddit
Could we do the video edit the stabilizes the aricraft? I got nauseous just watching it lol
CocoSavege@reddit
Random include, my thought was "why not use foils for takeoff?" Like, some sort of (retractable) foils to get a bit of elevated plane.
Maybe there's a sweet spit with ground effect too, but ground effect still feels like witchcraft. Like, wing profile for GE too different than wing profile for supersonic
Well, material science wasn't super great back then compared to now, take off foils might be too heavy if strong enough, too flimsy if retractable and light, etc.
Also wing tech, including hydrofoil, way better today.
Waitasec, I have internet. Do hydrofoil sea planes exist today?
Yes, yes they do. Pretty darn limited though. 2 platforms? Not supersonic.
That's all.
7LeagueBoots@reddit
Convair tried all sorts of wild things.
Radioactive_Tuber57@reddit
Thought it was going to do the Saber Dance and kill him. 😥
celebes_america@reddit
I work in the building this was built it.
forkedquality@reddit
If any aircraft ever needed a RATO bottle, this is it
PATTY_CAKES1994@reddit
The x-15 we have at home:
ansonchappell@reddit
I guess if there's no ground there's no ground effect. I'll show myself out.
MegaPegasusReindeer@reddit
Needs hydrofoil landing gear
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
That's what it did have.
KerPop42@reddit
No, it just had a skid plate. No submerged lift, just planing
ziper1221@reddit
Hydrofoils wouldn't have worked well. Subcavitating foils are only good to about 50 knots. Supercavitating foils work fine at higher speeds but lose most of the efficiency benefits and require some sort of system to control lift. Skis avoid that.
Ornery_Year_9870@reddit
Right. Convair called them hydro-skis. Not a hydrofoil as such because they weren't extended until the aircraft had reached about ten knots on the water. The Sea Dart was tested with both a single ski and dual skis.
Lillienpud@reddit
Needs more motor.
Plump_Apparatus@reddit
It did. The J46 turbojets that were intended for the plane were still in development. Instead J34s were used that had around half the thrust.
Lillienpud@reddit
Oof.
fodder650@reddit
Used to be a gate guard at the Naval Air Station in Willow Grove Pennsylvania. Now it is part of the air museum there since the air base closed fifteen years ago. So if you are in the area you can see it in person.
The air museum is called the Wings of Freedom. https://wingsoffreedommuseum.org/
an_older_meme@reddit
Convair sure came up with some winners didn’t they?
souppanda@reddit
What a piece of junk!
Redshirttrooper@reddit
Lieutenant Dan! You ain’t got no wings!
122922@reddit
Built and tested in San Diego. There is one sitting in front of the San Diego Aerospace Museum.
KerPop42@reddit
Damn, if there was ever a reason for an afterburner, this would be it
Xeelee1123@reddit (OP)
It had one.
KerPop42@reddit
Yikes
treckin@reddit
This belongs on r/maybemaybemaybe
MantoTerror@reddit
There's an example in an air museum near Philly..
NSYK@reddit
I’m still convinced in a WW3 situation we’re going to wish we had sea based cargo and attack aircraft
KeymanOfTheMind@reddit
The low thrust of most jet engines in that time were a detriment many prototype and experimental planes.
Affectionate_Cronut@reddit
Low thrust, and the throttle lag was even more dangerous. 4-5 seconds from throttle input for the engine to catch up. If you get behind the power curve at low altitude in one of these old jets, you are dead.
Rooilia@reddit
Seems to would have become a suicide machine for the average pilot.
recumbent_mike@reddit
Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote the earliest report about difficult-to-handle sea birds.
getdownheavy@reddit
"I'm giving her all she's got, Captain!!"
Russian submarine sonar operator: "wtf are they doing up there? pounding on the ocean?"
Eisenkopf69@reddit
Merz first year as German chancellor
WhisenPeppler@reddit
Saw it in San Diego.
Xeelee1123@reddit (OP)
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT4CeYYWu_4
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_F2Y_Sea_Dart
Source: https://thetartanterror.blogspot.com/2005/12/billy-jack-bj-long-1923.html
samay0@reddit
They say it’s still out there skipping to this day