Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s push for EU membership strains ties with allies
Posted by chillichampion@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 67 comments
Posted by chillichampion@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 67 comments
bluecheese2040@reddit
Before the world loses interest in Ukraine zelensky needs to get as much foe Ukraine as possible.
A potential way of selling giving uo territory to his people is.. well we lose the parts of the country that are already sorta pro Russian but we gain all of Europe in exchange.
chillichampion@reddit (OP)
But European Union won’t accept his country though.
bluecheese2040@reddit
And rightfully so
loggy_sci@reddit
You believe Ukraine should belong to Russia
bluecheese2040@reddit
Do I? News to me. Maybe you shoukd concern yourself with your country's decent into fascism and get your hands off of greenland
loggy_sci@reddit
I can oppose Trump and support Ukraine at the same time. I do think it is funny when people who are too chicken-shit to post their own country as a flair take swipes at the people who aren’t. :)
12bEngie@reddit
Can you oppose israel and ukraine at the same time, given that ukraine is a massive ally to the former?
bluecheese2040@reddit
Wow so u can do 2 things at once. Good boy.
A bit of advice...if you don't want people to treat you like a daft cunt maybe try to debate properly and don't start off with lies.
RoostasTowel@reddit
Ah, so you say that when you aren't even a member country of the EU?
Why not use your actual country flair?
bluecheese2040@reddit
Are u trying to make a relavent point or did your dog wall over the keyboard and hit send in error?
RoostasTowel@reddit
Why not use your actual country flair you daft cunt?
loggy_sci@reddit
I have too much self-respect to give a shit about your approval. I’ve seen your posts in this sub for a long time and know exactly what you think about Ukraine. Unhide your comment history ;)
Chipay@reddit
It's not, this same game has been played multiple times by other East- and South-European candidates before. Ukraine will prod and poke to see if they can get any benefits sooner rather than later and the answer will largely be 'no'.
Ukraine will join the EU once its democracy and economy are stable, consistent and not a drain on the market at large. That doesn't mean that there won't be prior trade deals and other political agreements prior that'll accelerate the process.
esjb11@reddit
Tbf has EU a history with fucking themself over by inviting far from capable countries. But when it comes to Ukraine I guess the issues is clear enough that the risk of it happening is significantly reduced
Oatcake47@reddit
Inviting in weaker economies is a valid tactic. Cools off hot economies, keeps the euro from inflating too much and later after investment it also pumps the growth stats. Also we now need their army.
Then there is they deserve a seat at the table for their sacrifice and determination. Basically been fighting for a better future that we can offer them.
When I was in Kyiv you really got a sense of optimism about being themselves and welcomed by the rest of Europe as a fellow democracy
esjb11@reddit
Not in practise. It just ends up with us having to bail them out. Look at greece. It also comes with plenty of penalties. Wage dumping labour import. uncompetetive business, increased corruption. Criminals comming to richer countries to commit crimes and leave. Yearly subsides etc.
Fighting a war has nothing to do with deserving a place in the EU. For that they need to deserve it in what EU cares about. Stable economy, get rid of corruption etc.
Oatcake47@reddit
The greek people had to have a bailout but sovereign debt in Greece was way lower than most other states. More a symptom of banks not being regulated.
And Greece has been going strong on the loan they got (not free money) so over all the growth these countries bring to a largely saturated block like western Europe works great in the crushing system of perpetual capitalist growth.
Frost0ne@reddit
What has already been invested, together with the additional funding required to rebuild the country and sustain the Ukrainian army, already far exceeds the scale of the Greek bailout. Before foreign investors seriously consider putting money into reconstruction projects, they will need to be confident that the war will not continue. The EU has no real interest in financing a forever war while also being expected to underwrite Ukraine’s reconstruction.
mayorofdumb@reddit
Perpetual growth because we keep including the kids that break toys.
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Well, they are right. Zelensky doesn't have any more allies besides the EU. And even then, some countries don't want to support him. But he have grown complacent with his position of "defender of democracy" so he still thinks he can demand and not ask.
The worst thing any leader can do is to start believing in his own propaganda. And that's exactly what Zelensky did.
InconspicuousRadish@reddit
Except everyone wants their drone tech and expertise, their grain, and generally their ability to keep Russia out of Europe.
He will not be able to push for an EU membership fast track once/if a cease fire with Russia takes hold. Then Europe will play the "let's wait and see" game.
He's doing what he thinks is right for Ukraine's future and cannot be blamed. The alternative to EU and democracy is Russia and autocracy.
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Oh, please. They need the tech, they don't need the ukranians. Its much cheaper to lease the technology from them and build a production line somewhere in EU. Which they already doing right now, before the war even ended. Sure, they might need some trainers for their operators, but there would be no shortage of experience ukranian pilots willing to migrate to EU for a job.
Grain? You probably missed all of the scandals between polish and romanian farmers who hate cheap ukranian grain coming to eu. I doubt the situation would be any different in foreseeable future.
Keeping Russia out of Europe? Now that's rich. Anyone who still believes that Russia has the capabilities or desire to invade EU is a fool.
Ukraine is not the land. It's the ukranians themselves. And 4 years of war have left their nation depopulated, their industry and infrastructure destroyed and their economy in so much debt even their grandchildren won't be able to repay it. If they have grandchildren at all, if you take into account their abyssmal birth rate.
Face it, dude. When the war is over, Ukraine would be just thrown away like any other used tool.
PutuplastaZapte@reddit
Capability? Not right now
Desire? Always and forever with the eastern europe part of that
But "Russia out" wouldn't just be that. There are the drone flyovers, there are cyberattacks, tankers mysteriously cutting cables every time. There are parties charged for spying for Russia. The whole Belarus border situation. Those aren't invasion levels but they are Russia acting up against EU and that does need to be rooted out
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Oh, that's rich. You're saying as if Russia has literally no reason to do all of the above? Nordstream? Oil tanker piracy?
And just because someone doesn't think Russia is an absolute evil, he isn't automatically a russian spy. Those kind of rhetoric is exactly why parties like AfD and Reform UK gain so much popularity - if you refuse to even acknowledge the fact that their reasoning should be at least heard, you invite extremism.
And again, even if we assume Russia does all of that with malicious intent, how exactly Ukraine is going to help with that? You don't need them to stop the spies, sabotage or political parties.
So tell me again, who would care for Ukraine when the dust is settled?
PutuplastaZapte@reddit
Nordtream - instantly permanently decomossioned pipe that only exploded in the part that Germany owned, against the wishes of Baltic sea countries who deal with the gas leak. Totally a big threat from the rest of Europe and definately a big hit to Russia...
If by piracy you mean the shadow tankers being seized very late into the war because of the cable cutting and them being used with fake identities to go through sanctioned waters - yeah that also only happened way after and shouldnt be a threat to Russia since they pretend those aren't their ships at all
yeah dont give me that bullshit. Parties and politicians such as Ždanoka in Latvia and Malinov in Bulgaria for example are awaiting trial for the literal act of spying. AFD is pro-Russia on a high level but thats not even the most neo-nazi thing about them so
Ukraine is pretty key in dealing with the drones. Their have better EW than we have, drone interceptors, experimental but existing glide bomb interceptors (if it ever gets that far). The big US, for example, wrote all of this off, went to fight Iran and can't deal with robust shaheds that they expected to meet - thats as much success as many EU countries have against a single unpredicted shahed flying by
They also deal with cyber attacks much better now than much of Europe does
They also have the biggest collection of data on shadow tankers, spies (having warned other countries about specific onces and so)
They are also the only ones with any capability to hit any bases or factories being used to make the operations possible
chillichampion@reddit (OP)
“Drone tech”,
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
My man, Ukraine doesn't hold any drone tech. They are assembled in Ukraine, not builty. They are coming from EU, US and... China.
ctnoxin@reddit
Japan, Canada, and Australia have all contributed to Ukraine's war effort, that's a couple of more allies you can add to your tallies outside of "just the EU", we know the US has shifted their support to Russia for some reason, but propaganda aside, they have plenty of allies that don't want to see Russia encroach any further on the continent.
polaroid_kidd@reddit
Ok, so first things first. The article quotes four anonymous EU officials. This could be anyone of thousands. They could be quoting the local interns. It's the FT, so let's assume that they have credible sources. There's still no way for a reader to assign any level of gravity to these four officials. The only actual quote we have is this
Fuck. That. Guy. When has the appeasement EVER worked? Even in our own (I'm German) history?
Maybe a price of the peace deal should be that Putin's put in-front of the ICC?
jenkz90@reddit
It’s absurd. Ukraine has the most capable military on the planet right now. It’s super important for EU security to lock in Ukraine as a long term Ally.
WongFarmHand@reddit
then why arent they winning
happybaby00@reddit
Russia hasnt gone all out even now....
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Russia can't go "all out." They’re using volunteers because the public wouldn't accept mobilization and they're increasing the recruitment bonus every six months because everyone in Russia who actually wanted to fight is already dead or crippled.
esjb11@reddit
Thats pure speculation that they couldnt just like every other."Russia will collapse" claim. They have chosen a path to make the war felt as little as possible at home and hence also be more sustainable in the long run.
It also depends alot on how they do it. I have little doubt that they would have gotten away with using reservists in Kursk for example. Thats a step on the stairs. During the partial mobilization in Russia 2022 we also dident see more issues (actually less) than todays mobilization in Ukraine. No TCC roaming the streets etc.
There is also the industry. The industry still produce alot of civilian goods compared to more full scale wars such as Ww2. Big exception is the car industry which has significantly decreased but thats the first thing to get repurposed in war. The fact that there is still some civilian cars being produced, is already a sign. That couldnt even be said for the US during WW2.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Did you ever consider that russia hasn't switched their auto manufacturing to tanks because multimillion dollar tanks can be taken out by drones that cost less than a thousand dollars before they ever get close to the line of contact?
esjb11@reddit
Maybe you arent aware that there is more vechiles used in war than tanks?
calmdownmyguy@reddit
Maybe you aren't aware that those vehicles are even more vulnerable to drones
esjb11@reddit
Dude, if you for real have no idea of the importance of vechiles in war there is no point in discussing with you.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
It's probably easy for you to pretend to win arguments when you put words in people's mouth.
esjb11@reddit
Put words in peoples months? That was what your argument was indicating, while putting words in my mouth lol.
But I doubt you actually argued in good faith. You are well aware of the importance of vechiles in war.
calmdownmyguy@reddit
I never said they weren't. You said that I said they weren't.
esjb11@reddit
Then you came with a completly pointles comment about tanks which noone had mentioned...
GovernmentBig2749@reddit
and biggest corruption in Europe, bruh...this takes years, if not decades..and there is a litle WAR going on in 25% of Ukraine at the moment...
loggy_sci@reddit
Russian corruption is worse.
GovernmentBig2749@reddit
Russia aint joining the EU, innit-Ukraine is.
OrdinaryDependent396@reddit
Is multinational a flair for Russian bot?
alt-right-del@reddit
Drank too much of the kool aid? Come back to earth.
Ukraine was a “broken” state before the war started and war time will only have made it worse.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukraine-turns-a-blind-eye-to-ultrarightist-militia/2017/02/12/dbf9ea3c-ecab-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/corruption-scandal-rocks-ukraine-as-it-fights-for-survival-against-russias-invasion
Etc
AlbertoRossonero@reddit
In what world are they the most capable military?
debasing_the_coinage@reddit
Why do people keep saying this? From a purely US strategic perspective, détente worked fine in the Cold War. The alternative of a war with the Soviet Union would have killed probably hundreds of millions of people. Atlanticist talking points are not only annoying they're blatantly ahistorical.
chillichampion@reddit (OP)
“Maybe a price of the peace deal should be that Putin’s put in-front of the ICC”- who’s going to do that? You?
polaroid_kidd@reddit
Would if I could. Wouldn't you?
Or do you think that any good will come from continuing a policy of appeasement? A policy, which has had zero net positive outcome for the appeasing party at any point in history.
loggy_sci@reddit
No, chillchampion is a pro-Russian poster. He wants Russia to win
polaroid_kidd@reddit
Ah crap. I feel for an idiot.. thanks for pointing it out.
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
But you couldn't. And EU realize they couldn't. So what now? You're to keep throwing tantrums or start thinking and behaving like an adult?
discographyA@reddit
Let’s not look through Ukraine with overly rose colored glasses. They should be offered a pathway but it is a very corrupt country still and also quite ring wing in disposition. I’m not sure EU should be taking in anybody anyway until they revise their own governing processes that make little dependent, outlier countries able to run over the will of the super majority of member states.
sigmaluckynine@reddit
I get where you're coming from but let's be realistic
nikmah@reddit
Looks to me like Zelensky is well aware of the possibility that he's being deceived by the EU and he wants EU to start delivering on its membership promises.
Is the priority of the EU more about continuing the war in Ukraine with Russia and less about Ukrainian EU membership. "Yes, Zelensky, we will guarantee you EU membership, but first just focus on fighting and weakening Russia and don't come to any terms with Russia, just sustain and prolong this conflict with Russia a bit longer and then we will talk about EU membership"
Relations between EU and Ukrainian officials seems tense to say the least.
name20948234@reddit
If anyone wants the war to continue it's that one country in relative decline that doesn't like regulation and whose main industries are weapons and energy.
imunfair@reddit
Honestly not sure if you're throwing shade at Russia or the US.
Smell_the_funk@reddit
EU wants the war in Ukraine to continue? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read on Reddit today.
nikmah@reddit
You're right, they want Russia to succeed in Ukraine.
loggy_sci@reddit
No they Donte u/nikmah pushes this Russian narrative on this sub, that the reason the war is happening is because the EU and U.S. want it. It’s dumb and purposefully absolves Russia of its responsibilities the war.
nikmah@reddit
I'm not pushing anything other than my own conviction and this whining behavior is rather immature if you ask me.
loggy_sci@reddit
You’re accusing the EU of wanting this war. It’s absurd. Nobody is whining. Your agenda is too obvious.
Smell_the_funk@reddit
Are ‘they’ in the room with us now?
evgis@reddit
Exactly, EU has been dangling the EU membership as a carrot to Ukraine. IMO the entrance is almost impossible in next two decades, unfortunately it is more likely that EU breaks up.
Ukrainians are going to feel used and betrayed.
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