How to maintain motivation while being constantly lowballed in yearly salary discussions?
Posted by ToeMother8579@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 92 comments
Just to clarify, I am in Europe and not the US. At our workplace (country in general) yearly salary "hikes" are negotiated by thr union and the employer and are always low, around the 3% mark. Its a pot system too, meaning if you get slightly more, someone else gets slightly less. Obviously the end result of such a system is that everyone, regardless of performance, floats around 3%.
How do you maintain motivation in such an environment? How do you go the extra mile and make that code more robust and professional? Or document / create tickets for those little bugs you found? I just dont see the point when our contributions are constantly overlooked. Its even worse if you're the "silent workhorse" type.
As it stands now, im actively trying to do as little as possible on the job whilst honing my skills elsewhere while waiting out this rotten market. This is possible because they also dont monitor us what so ever. A dream job for some people to be sure, but a sure fire way to rot and stagnate too.
mraweedd@reddit
The largest salary increase comes from getting a new position, either in the current company or a new one. It is a reason many people switch jobs every 3-5 years
Void-kun@reddit
3-5 years? They used to advise you hop every 18 months for the biggest gains, since when did that advice change?
thecrius@reddit
Since the instability that followed post-covid, then wars then the US shitshow with Trump and his tariffs, AI disrupting every business... the list goes on.
Void-kun@reddit
I think the US is affected disproportionately compared to the rest of the world at the moment.
In the UK we haven't seen mass lay offs, we've still got plenty of recruiters hounding us on LinkedIn.
Our energy prices haven't shifted very much since the problems started in Iran/Israel either.
The impact AI has had has been more impacting junior-mid roles in the UK. I'm still getting plenty of tech lead and senior roles coming into my inbox weekly without actively looking.
Our economy has been relatively stable these last 3 years, only issue is the cost of living since COVID hasn't changed.
The other response was a bit better, it's more that the 18 month job hopping only really works till you reach senior level, at that point the 18 month job hopping will get you looked over on the more senior roles.
leadzor@reddit
Since the economy has stalled a bit, as newer opportunities and the gains from jumping are lower.
Also it's not an absolute value, the more senior you are, the bigger the expectation that you stay in longer because it takes more time for you to exert the level of influence required of your role. If you consistently hop every 18 months, at some point companies will stop looking at your CV because they expect a higher level of commitment to the role (which takes longer to accomplish) the more senior you are.
I'm not advocating on jobs for life, just that while a junior might hop every 12 to 18 months, a senior might hop every 30 to 36 months, staff+ every 48 to 72 months, etc. It's a game of balance: you want to hop as much as possible without compromising on your commitment outlook at more senior positions.
Void-kun@reddit
That makes sense and tbh I job hopped till I hit senior and now I've been here 4 years so this tracks with my experience too.
Thank you for explaining that so clearly
leadzor@reddit
No problem! I believe my shortest tenure was ~18 months around my first job on a small startup, and then the following company I stayed there for 4 and something years because I enjoyed my team and the kind of work we were doing and I overlooked my salary a bit. Switched to stay around 2 something years at another company, and now I'm at my current company for nearly 3, and I don't plan on leaving for now.
I do know a couple of people who just blindly job hopped every >2 years and they reached the point where the kinds of companies that consider them are not willing to pay more than what he's currently earning, my advice for them now is to just sit tight for a while until they have a fair amount of tenure to offset the hops, and they absolutely hate that.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
I've just hit the 4 year mark and have come to the same conclusion.
broken-neurons@reddit
There is a lot of risk moving at this point with the economy like it is. Most European countries have some kind of protection for being laid off after you’ve completed your trial period. Within a trial period you can be laid off with almost no notice.
If you do move then look for a company that has some resilience to recession or economic downturns. For example companies focused or corporate training and learning always get hit really hard in downturns, because those budgets are the easiest to cut from OPEX.
Cahnis@reddit
There is a projected cost of opportunity of not doing it, that stability is ultra expensive.
Imo make a big emergency fund and pull the trigger
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Yup that's why ive been hesitant to move. It sucks that the market has gone to shit.
tecedu@reddit
You don't.
You've got a union job that means union effort. Work 9-5 and thats all.
When I first joined my company i had two choices, get on a personal contract or a union contract, union contracts got a cumlative 13% raise the past 3 years. I got 37% via my personal. It does mean that I traded notice periods and lay offs impacts. But at the same time it is a choice people make.
LonelyWolf_99@reddit
OP is Swedish, Nordic countries tend to have collective worker agreements. Everyone is affected by unions and generally it is a good thing, at least for society as a whole.
Even if you are paid well, worker rights actually prevents you from working more hour in most situations. Unless you have a fixed salary (higher base salary, no OT pay, but some OT is expected) or you are allowed to take OT ( higher pay per hour).
Nordic union style is not comparable to unions in many other countries (including USA)
They way you go significantly up in pay is either internal promotion or changing jobs.
There are consultants which are paid more, but often most of that extra pay goes to the consultancy company so for most workers, it isn’t that much better.
tecedu@reddit
I mean I am from the UK, our unions sound the same to me. Not disagreeing that unions aren’t good, but they do kill individual bargaining which is what op is looking for.
They can’t want a safe job and want unsafe job pay. And neither should they try to go above and beyond
LonelyWolf_99@reddit
Sounds a bit different, as the option to opt out of union agreements is generally not a thing here.
They don’t kill individual bargaining, but it would require a change in position, so definitely limits it.
stingraycharles@reddit
You’re trading job security / stability for a lower salary. In Europe, if you want to make decent money, start doing contracting. Due to labor laws, many organizations prefer contractors, as it’s more US-style “employment at will”. This means higher salary, less job security.
redditnotmereddit@reddit
Contracting is not necessarily the solution. In bigger organizations you should aim to grow into management, lead engineer or architect to optimize salary. Most of those positions is not for contractors, and if they are, they are for the real rockstars. As a software engineer contractor your impact is limited because you are IC, unless you are highly skilled
stingraycharles@reddit
If OP enjoys that, yes. But OP is asking how to earn more doing the same job.
After being in the industry for almost 25 years, I’m very happy being an IC, and I think your impact can be pretty good when in the right company!
Waste_Trainer8767@reddit
ever thought about switching companies?
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
You've hit the nail on the head. I stay purely for the job security in the current market.
Eis_Gefluester@reddit
From the description, I guess it's Austria?
Ime, you can always negotiate directly yourself too in addition to the union and strike a better deal. The employer is just not allowed to do something that's worse than what the union negotiated. So treat the union negotiation as bare minimum and everything above that is up to your personal direct negotiation.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
The situation you've described is exactly how it works here in sweden. The problem is our boss always promises to look at giving us additional revisions but never does. I've given up trying
Dexterus@reddit
What do you mean "us"? It's you who negotiates for yourself based on your performance review. Above the baseline is your own skill at work and/or with words. Your manager cannot ask for 10% for everyone but I bet he can ask for 10% for one person per year.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
No one gets 10% ever. That would mean over 3 other people get nothing and that simply doesnt happen.
Dexterus@reddit
That 10% is not from other people though.
I used to work for a Swedish company. I got the 3%-6% every year but every 2-3 years I'd ask for more and got it. I maintained 8% annual average over 10 years.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
It is. It's a pot system. The union and company agree on a % increase thats applied to all current salaries whereupon a pot is created. Any and all adjustments come from the total pot.
Archmonduu@reddit
Be active in your local union and make the case for individuell lönesättning. Afaik you are not forced to work under a kollektivavtal if the Union does not want one. And if you don't have a kollektivavtal then your employer is just bullshitting you and they have all the mandate they need to pay you more.
Typically very few care enough to be engaged at all with their local union, so one person that cares can have a lot of sway. (In case you go the local politics route)
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
We have kollektivavtal and you cant work there without one. Boss always says we have "individuell lönesättning" but in reality we dont - its a pot system where one person's success must come at another's misfortune, and getting any meaningful raise above the 3% raise is basically impossible.
Dexterus@reddit
A manager friend at the same company basically said he just used the extra requests (I'm sure other people asked at other times) to get a bit bigger budget. 3.5% instead of 3% can give some extra raises to 1-2 people; but yes, the choice was always his how to split, just the initial amount needed some negotiation with the directors.
AgentClown@reddit
Everything you write I read like "is this me?" Also working in Sweden and a bt more than 4 yoe Had a bump after 2 years where I asked for a special salary review and got bumped 15% because another company was showing interest in me, but didn't take a the normal pay increase the year after.
After that I have doing everything to show I want to to grow within the company and been taking on a lot of stuff that is way out of my role description, more like lead developer stuff. And this time when I asked for a special salary review they just said they expect the staff to perform well outside the frames of their role and that I can't grow anymore in my department.
So I'm looking for a new job as well 🙃
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Did they ever ask for proof of that job offer? 😅 im looking for jobs as we speak. We have "lönesamtal 2" soon and it would be good to come in with another offer haha.
itix@reddit
Your boss is lying to you. They can give you 10% and still give 3% to others.
LonelyWolf_99@reddit
It is not uncommon for the unions to negotiate a max, minimum and average increase. Big pay increases typically means internal promotion or changing jobs.
Eis_Gefluester@reddit
I see, it's very similar here in austria. The logical consequence is to search for another job if your boss doesn't appreciate your effort.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
You're right. I've started applying the past weeks.
heelek@reddit
My guess is Sweden
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Ding ding
PmMeCuteDogsThanks_@reddit
Inte så på mitt företag i alla fall. Fintech, och spannet bland utvecklare är ungefär 50-120 tkr.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
120k in sweden? Hard doubt. At best its anecdotal evidence, and far above the union median.
yxhuvud@reddit
Do realize that there is a fair amount of selection bias in the union stats, both by company and by membership.
Also? Which union? There are 3 possible and they are quite different..
Honestly I wish we had exactly one developer/IT focused union to pick for developers, and that it was actually good. Like Unionen is absolutely dogshit for our needs and wants, and while the other two choices fit better they have gatekeeping requirements by requiring a certain academic level.
PmMeCuteDogsThanks_@reddit
The trick is to work close to where the revenue is generated. More visibility, better position for negotiation.
domipal@reddit
same in fintech, was mid level at 63k + bonus. got a 0% yearly raise for being “too new” after working 75% of fiscal year so decided to leave. swedens salaries vs cost of living, especially in stockholm, is probably one of the worse in europe..
Jakabxmarci@reddit
I work in Sweden as well, they usually mention the "collective agreement" and that inflation in Sweden is like 0-1%. I could negotiate up to 5.5% this year due to good performace last year, being proactive, and taking on a bit more responsibility.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Right but under collective agreements that utilise a pot system, getting 5.5% means someone else got less than the "märke".
Jakabxmarci@reddit
I was not aware of this "pot" system.
peareauxThoughts@reddit
This can’t be true, I’ve read extensively on Reddit.com that unions are the best thing ever for everyone.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
They're great for lazy laysbouts who want to go under the radar while doing as little as possible.
If you want to genuinely make something you're proud of while remaining motivated / feeling rewarded for your efforts theyre horrible.
XenonBG@reddit
You're ditching unions for something that isn't really their fault. I'm in a branche that is never unionized, and we never have a collective contract (a CAO here in the Netherlands) and yet I have exactly the same experience as you - 3% yearly increase is considered normal, this year I got a whopping 4% for my exceptional efforts they said. And it's been like that since I started working in 2010.
It leaves you with only two options, job-hopping or contracting. I recommend you the latter - you give up all the certainty the unions fought for in the decades after WW2, but you basically double your income.
And again, don't ditch the unions - the fact that you personally aren't getting anything out of them right now, doesn't mean they aren't useful. I am guessing you are a man, white, have tertiary level education, are a native speaker, young enough so you rarely get sick, and have no dependents (kids or a partner unable to work). In that case, if I'm right (and I may not be of course), i can certainly understand the unions being seen as a hindrance.
Tl;dr just go contracting.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
You're right but im not a native speaker. I had no helping hand getting to where I am today if that's what you're implying... no internal contacts or family friends of the managers to help me abuse my white privilege... I got here by applying for the job and doing well in the interviews.
I cant speak to your experience or what happened in the places where you worked, but here, it is partially the union's fault. They cave at 3% and that's what the company now sees as its target. They even got a higher offer from the company but refused it, so now we fall back to 3%. How is that good for workers?? Also the pot system is terrible for individual motivation.
XenonBG@reddit
At my previous workplace we also had a pot system, without a union. It's horrible, and the salary becoming lower than market average due to miserable yearly raises was the reason I left what was otherwise a great company.
Now a few years later I'm in the same situation at another company. It's deeply annoying. Also no union.
Sure, me too. Also not a native speaker btw, but I have no illusions that being a white man didn't help my case, even if that's not something I have any control over. You can simply check the statistics - check the percentage of non-white people in Sweden and if that percentage is even closely reflected where you work.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Oh no I dont deny that. My workplace is entirely homogeneous. Im the only foreigner there.
max123246@reddit
Unions aren't a monolith, clearly the deal they struck with this company just ends up making no one happen and none of the leadership is passionate or driven enough to encourage adding on performance driven raises.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
There's a lot of people who have worked there for many years and who I observe doubg quite little. The stability and lack of monitoring is no doubt what they value.
Izacus@reddit
Maybe you're one of the lazy ones and your performance doesn't merit more money?
timwaaagh@reddit
Maybe start looking for a promotion or something.
redditnotmereddit@reddit
Fellow swede here working at IKEA. The trick is to get promoted, move internally or find a new job. I have the same problem in my workplace. If you really is below the average in the company, then union should help during yearly salary review.
What is best is to perform and build credit. Your boss, grand parent boss and your colleagues should see your effort. When you have trust that you are a high performer, then you will be promoted or can move internally to higher salary.
As a salaried employee within a big company, there might be new opportunities happening regularly. A new team is founded and they need senior engineers, or managers. Then you have the opportunity to grow faster than the yearly career progression process
sexual--predditor@reddit
You get hikes? I'm over here with no hikes, getting essentially pay cuts every year due to inflation.
yxhuvud@reddit
You either get promoted to a better role or you switch jobs to something better paid.
rotzak@reddit
Go find a new job mate.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
You're right. I just can't seem to muster the courage and take the hop from a Stanley FTE to a trial employment. But I have begun to apply to new jobs now!
snapphanen@reddit
I jumped ship and all my ex coworkers laughed at me. "I would've never accepted trial terms"
One year later, I now earn +25% and half of my old team got laid off.
It was scary and a lot of anxiety but never lost the belief that it was the right move for me.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Thanks that might be what I needed to hear to inspire me to keep looking!
black_tamborine@reddit
(Spot the Aussie?)
“…mate” “…shit you don’t care about”
Refwah@reddit
These are also common British English sayings
HQMorganstern@reddit
In countries like that the way to get a proper bang for your buck is not investing in work.
It's unlikely you will be able to be socially mobile even with contracting. Focusing on family, hobbies and getting a good boss who let's you skip work and underdeliver will be far more effective.
That or moving to a high earning job in Switzerland or London/Dublin.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Yup ive come to the same conclusion.
vismbr1@reddit
"As it stands now, im actively trying to do as little as possible on the job", I think that pretty much sums it up.
Top performers get more than 3%, even in Sweden, you just do those negotiation outside of the yearly salary review. You also need the management perspective of your work, you mention robust and professional code, what business value and impact would that bring? A valueable engineer knows when to deliver engineering excellence and when to deliver bare minimum.
throwaway_0x90@reddit
Go ahead and do that I suppose, but I suspect you'll always find a reason to be unhappy.
itix@reddit
At least your union is better at it than our union. We typically get 0,5% - 1,0% raises negotiated by our union.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Thats awful. Doesn't even cover inflation. And how much does one pay for that privilege? (Membership cost)
itix@reddit
I am not in the union and almost nobody at my workplace is in the union. We dont even go on strike when there is a strike, because it is worthless. There are no picketers anymore.
The problem in Finland is that unions are very broad and they dont negotiate only for our industry but they include completely unrelated industries and companies in negotiations, weakening their position.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Yup that latter part is true in Sweden too.
Clitaurius@reddit
As an alternative to finding a new job - work less. Are you 25% underpaid? Water your plants, prep your dinner, take longer shits. If the job is comfortable then fuck the hustle. I'd scrub toilets for the right pay. Your job does not have to satisfy you, in fact it probably shouldn't. Money and time are motivation in the workplace, passion for life doesn't need to intersect it.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Oh ive been doing that for a while now 😆
Izacus@reddit
By closing your social media app, finding work that fulfills you and getting life outside of that.
You can also "enjoy" life by moving to US and seeing how happy those people with all that money are.
big-papito@reddit
3% is the average raise in the US. Is that higher in Europe or something?
Professional_Mix2418@reddit
Yup I’ve never liked what we call in the Netherlands a CAO; collective workers agreement. I am way better at negotiating then what any union member would even begin to comprehend about what I am doing. So nope, don’t stay in that industry/company. Only way to get what you deserve is job hopping to a different industry where they don’t have that and where you also are not stuck on scales etc.
I can’t stand unions.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
They dont even seem to try when it comes to negotiating. Furthermore, at my local "union club", they have:
I cannot fathom this system and why everyone here kisses its butt.
FetaMight@reddit
Can you get involved in your union to change to improve things?
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Union participation is very high and yet its been like this for a long time im told. In reality unions are like companies where a few people make the decisions that matter it seems.
red_flock@reddit
Cant help with the salary part, but if you stay with a company long enough, you are going to get angry with some sloppy work, only to find it was actually me, several years ago, and I cannot even remember why it was done so badly. Doing a good job could be just good karma for your future self.
Also, your good contributions may not be appreciated in your current workplace, but you want to confidently say you did this and that, and set the gold standard, when interviewing for your next job.
casualPlayerThink@reddit
I love this corpo bs in sweden they give you this or that salary increase because an union said so. Even if you or the company is not part of. It is just an excuse to being sh#t. I know this, because I own a small company.
Just leave. That place does not wort your life. Probably will damage your careers (wasted years)
SquiffSquiff@reddit
Tell us that you're working in Germany without telling us that you're working in Germany
generateduser29128@reddit
OP is swedish. Many EU countries work similarly.
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Very close, Sweden. This system must be more widespread in Europe than I thought...
PmMeCuteDogsThanks_@reddit
If money is more important that stability, you become a contractor
Previous-Resource-54@reddit
Focus more into choosing the projects or tasks that you like more, or the ones where you have less experience. Use the time to learn whatever you might be missing. Learn from other coworkers that do things that you admire. If you can keep the job by doing the bar minimum, leadership wouldn’t care if you do “extra” things that they didn’t ask for. And if they care, then don’t advertise it.
Think of yourself having a behavioral interview in a couple of months/years and what you would be telling the interviewer about your current task. “I was assigned to do this ticket and I did it” vs “I saw we had an issue there, I didn’t know much about that tech stack, so I investigated, learned, and improved X, Y and Z. The impact was that W metric improved and I learned a lot”
When the market picks up, that’s the type of engineers that I would like to bring onboard if I’m the interviewer.
Good luck and find something that makes you happier
Anxious-Yard-5948@reddit
Sounds like Germany, the only difference is that 3% is a dream. In reality its like 2% if you are in tarif (low) and around 1% outside of tarif (speaking for private economy). If you are pensioner you get 4,2% though.
spicycli@reddit
Increase your salary yourself by working less and less for the same salary 👍
ToeMother8579@reddit (OP)
Hahaha already doing this with the exactly same thought in my head. Should I become OE with the spare time?
spicycli@reddit
You can try 😂
heelek@reddit
You can't force motivation. My approach is: I don't go the extra mile and when my salary starts slipping compared to the market - time to look elsewhere.