Propane vs diesel for max range after long-term storage (family of 5, no resupply)
Posted by anthonykaram7@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 122 comments
Thought experiment for an EMP-type scenario where a large region loses power long-term and fuel infrastructure is down.
Assume a family of 5 needs to travel \~1500-3000 miles with no resupply. Roads are mostly passable, but you're relying entirely on fuel stored ahead of time.
As everyone here's aware, propane stores indefinitely but has lower energy density, while gasoline/diesel give you better range but come with storage/rotation challenges.
In this scenario, assume the family might wait months or even years before deciding to move (unclear scope of the event, risk of traveling early, etc.), so long-term fuel stability matters.
One idea would be a propane-capable vehicle (e.g., a converted pickup) with a large quantity of tanks stored and then carried for the trip - but I'm not sure how the math works out once you factor in tank weight/volume vs usable range.
Some initial questions:
- Under these constraints, what setup actually maximizes total range with no resupply?
- Does propane's storage advantage outweigh its lower energy density in practice?
- How would you approach fuel storage and transport for a trip of this length?
- Or does diesel (with proper storage/rotation) still come out ahead overall?
Curious how people here would think this through.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
You need to include the weight of the propane cylinders you need to haul your extra fuel. A couple of quick calculations and I think you have more weight in the tanks than the propane. Diesel is best by far.
If you really want to do it check out hydrogen, it’s super niche but brilliant energy density. You can use renewables to generate hydrogen.
shikkonin@reddit
Lol, no. At least not with any of the realistic ways you have to store it.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
What do you mean? You store it in a pressurised tank, probably made out of composite. The guy wants to drive 3000 miles post apocalyptic emp, the maths supports it but it would be incredibly expensive to buy the equipment. Personally I think he should sit tight or have a bunch of horses.
s_nz@reddit
Hydrogen has a remarkably high energy density by weight but a very low energy density by volume.
The latter is the issue. Op would Either need do deal with cryogenic tempratures, or enormous, crazy high pressure (700 bar) storage tanks.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
Yes, thats how hydrogen vehicles work. Cryogenic is not popular it’s all high pressure. The volume is irrelevant if you want to haul a fuel supply and maximise range, it weight that kills you.
s_nz@reddit
Volume is the critical factor for hydrogen.
Take a Gen 2 Mirai as an example. They have packed three different fuel tanks, with a combined capacity of 142L (third one under the trunk floor, not visible on the below image). Just to get a 647 kM capacity EPA rated range.
To go 3000 miles, one would need 5x the storage capacity. 700+ L, which would not physically fit in a a sedan.
If you run a combustion engine on hydrogen, you need about 3x the fuel vs a fuel cell car like the Mirai. We are now up to 2130L. And if we run a small truck, vs a slippery sedan, fuel usage is about triple again. We are not up to 6390L. This would need a large commercial truck to carry a giant cylindrical tank.
Should also mention, that while the hydrogen itself is lightweight, a tank rated to store 700 bar is not. (and also they are very expensive)
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
That’s correct, I am an engineer who works on such things and have even had a spin in various hydrogen powered vehicles. Good job google some stuff. The weight is very much the issues because carrying more mass means you burn more fuel. You know that 350l is not much volume right? I never said it was cheap - I actually said he was better to buy a horse.
s_nz@reddit
I don't understand your response. I calculated 6000L+ of 700 bar storage would be needed to make the trip. Turns out hydrogen is transported at lower pressure's.
I think it is feasible, but OP would need a trailer like the above, which is not ideal.
That trailer holds about 400kg of hydrogen, which is in same ballpark that one would need to drive 3000 miles using a hydrogen fueled combustion engine.
---------
As a comparison, a diesel hilux (or the north American equivalent) with 3x 200L drums of fuel in the tray could make the same trip, which would be a vastly more desirable option.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
That’s a tube trailer, now google the pressures used in vehicles.
TacTurtle@reddit
Volume is directly relevant as you have to make a very large pressure or insulation vessel which is very heavy.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
The pressure vessels used when hydrogen is used for transport are not heavy.
s_nz@reddit
Umm, Yeah they are. Tanks on a second generation mirai weigh 87.5kg ( and hold just 5.36 kg of hydrogen).
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
The tanks are made of carbon fibre, they are considered pretty light.
shikkonin@reddit
Which would need to be under extreme pressure, or very very cold, or you'd not be storing much of it at all.
Also, hydrogen just leaves the tank through diffusion pretty quickly.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
Sure, but these are problems that have been solved (I am an engineer who has worked in Hydrogen design at one time). The niche case for hydrogen vehicles is long range due to the energy density, google it if you don’t believe me.
TacTurtle@reddit
Hydrogen is idiotic for motive use, it is vastly harder to store and handle than liquid propane with negligible benefit while also being more complex to generate than simple methane (via bacterial digestion of biomass).
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
You need to do the maths on energy density, hydrogen is great for long haul. Biomass methane is terrible as the energy density is very very low. There are plenty of Hydrogen vehicles available today. I don’t know if there are many that run biogas’s?
TacTurtle@reddit
I am not saying methane is better than hydrogen for transport (both suck); I am saying methane is far easier to generate and store..
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
Biogas may be easy to generate and store but it’s not much use in the scenario given or for moving vehicles in general.
Hydrogen vehicles are not especially common, 100% agree. You can buy them if you want though. The point is you can easily manufacture your own fuel and they have the longest range out of any renewable energy vehicle.
The whole scenario given was terrible and as I have said he should sit tight or buy a horse.
shikkonin@reddit
Not for the case OP has described. They even plague real-life applications of hydrogen vehicles without long-term storage requirements.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
He doesn’t need to store it long term, solar and an electrolyser system and you can create your own fuel. A lot of hydrogen filling stations are literally just plugged into the mains with a water supply.
TacTurtle@reddit
Literally none of them you mean.
Commercial hydrogen is made from splitting natural gas, or (in Japan) nuclear reactors.
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
I am a chemical engineer who has worked on such things. Making hydrogen from natural gas is common because we like to upgrade heavier fractions in refineries or make fertiliser. In renewables (the only reason we bother with hydrogen as a fuel is renewables) we typically use electrolyses. A great many hydrogen filling stations are now powered by electrolysers on site.
Hydrogen has various niche cases, one of which is vehicles as its energy density beats batteries. Hydrogen is a stupid way to store electricity if it’s static.
Flimsy_Credit_8494@reddit
Pack mules. Much hardier than horses, each less, better hooves, smarter, more sure footed. And gasp .... They're grass powered. Waaaay more effective to travel long distance with animals in a SHTF EMP scenario.
clauderbaugh@reddit
You might be better off not worrying about storage of fuel for a trip like this and build yourself a biodiesel where you can scavenge old fryer grease from restaurants along the way. In this scenario all other fuel will be tapped, but you're likely to find oil vats in eateries that can be heated and filtered plus you get to smell like french fries for the entire trip.
RickShaw530@reddit
Or a gasifier wood stove engine.
Ghigs@reddit
Is that even possible with modern engines? Are you stick with old stuff?
clauderbaugh@reddit
Most older diesels have biodiesel conversion kits. You're not running biodiesel through a modern diesel engine but if OP is seriously planning for a trip, then buying an old Mercedes sedan or truck and converting it and then storing it instead of hundreds of gallons of fuel that they may never use is a better option. For ICE vehicles that is.
tcgaatl@reddit
Electric vehicle in a faraday cage.with the best solar panels available and as many as you can carry. It’ll take forever but better than walking.
PaddingCompression@reddit
If you really want to prep? Get an ethanol capable vehicle, and distill moonshine. There will always be vegetation you can distill, and you can save the microorganisms/yeast whatever you need to do it.
fenuxjde@reddit
To go 3000 miles under your own energy, you would basically need to be driving a fuel truck. At that point, diesel or propane wouldn't really matter as the volume would not be readily portable. Furthermore, in a catastrophic EMP event most vehicles made after 1993 wouldn't work anyway.
If time is no constraint, as you mentioned, an EV with solar setup would actually allow more mobility, just slower while you're recharging, but of course that option goes out the window under your "no resupply" condition.
Realistically, I would seriously reexamine why you would need to go 3000 miles in any such scenario and fix the gap that would lead to that necessity.
dishpit6@reddit
You point out that post-1993 vehicles would be fried, but then go on to talk about using an EV after an EMP event? Not sure that's going to work out too well.
fenuxjde@reddit
I agree, that's why OPs post is a little half baked. He's putting conditionals that aren't realistic or practical.
If the need is to survive emp, you're not going 3000 miles without refueling.
If you're need is to go 3000 miles in one go, you're not surviving emp.
DeltaOneFive@reddit
I had a Duramax that under the right hwy conditions could pull about 20 mpg. Factory 34 gal tank, and if you added a 100 gal aux tank in the bed that could get you roughly 2,600 miles under the most perfect conditions. I'd imagine other diesels could manage about the same with minor mods/tuning and an in-bed tank
DeafHeretic@reddit
A little half baked?
How about not cooked at all.
Besides the EV proposal, the assertion that one needs a fuel tanker truck shows he didn’t do the math.
I own two diesel powered vehicles, one a Hilux pickup, another a Dodge "one ton" truck. The former gets 20-25 MPG, depending on speed, terrain and traffic. The latter gets about 15-20 MPG in the same conditions. Neither vehicle is a speed demon - if you kept the speed under 55 MPH, the road was straight, flat, with no traffic, you would only need about 150-200 gallons (1K-1.5K#) of diesel to go 3000 miles.
That is a LOT less than a tanker can haul. My Dodge (DRW flatbed) can easily haul that much diesel fuel (max payload is 5500#). The HIlux would be slow off the line with that much weight, but once moving it would get easier (max payload is 2200#). Indeed, I have a 110 gallon aux tank full of diesel in my shop, that I could mount on the bed of either vehicle. The Hilux has a stock 20 gal tank, the Dodge a 37 gal tank. Either vehicle will get somewhere between 1500-3000 miles with that much fuel - what the OP is asking for. Not optimum, but possible.
One solution would be to have the Dodge flat tow the Hilux (which is my plan). Or, simply tow a fuel trailer with a 200-300 gallon diesel tank.
I happen to have a 255 gallon diesel storage tank in my shop in addition to the aux tank - but the storage tank is empty right now - I know it will fit in the bed of the Hilux because that is how I got the tank there - not that I would want to haul it around in the Hilux when it is full, but theoretically it would be possible - instead, I would put on a trailer if I wanted to haul it when full (by either vehicle). Not optimum because it is a tall oblong storage tank, not meant for transport - a cylindrical transport tank with baffles would be better for transport, or something like this (275 gal) tank on a trailer:
There are a number of issues with this (towing a trailer is not optimal, and something like that is obviously a target for thieves/etc.), but it is possible.
ElectronGuru@reddit
Ive seen used solar trailers for sale, that are designed to power worksites. Don’t recall their watts potential but they would generate both moving and parked!
David_C5@reddit
It's extremely challenging.
1 horsepower is 746 watts. The sun drops 1000 watts per square meter(about 9 square feet), but that's at 100% efficiency. Solar panels are typically 20% efficiency, so that's 200W. After going through a LiFePO4 battery and charge controller you lose about 10%.
But the biggest downfall of solar panels is they are extremely dependent on angle to the sun and shade. Small amount of shade is a huge power reduction. Non-direct angle is a significant power reduction.
TacTurtle@reddit
Impractical.
Did the math once, basically if you had a cyber truck completely covered in solar cells and assumed optimum orientation and perfect charging efficiency it would take over a month to fully charge a cyber truck. At best you are maybe getting enough juice for like 10-15 miles a day... a literal bicycle is faster.
fenuxjde@reddit
Yes I have a family member with 2200w solar setup on the roof of their camper. The engine is still ICE but the concept is semi valid.
fluteofski-@reddit
Keep in mind 746w per horsepower.
That 2200w solar setup is just shy of 3hp.
TacTurtle@reddit
A high fuel efficiency diesel station wagon or similar towing a fuel trailer could do it, at 30mpg you are talking 100 gallons to hit 3000 miles.
A BMW 328d Wagon has a 15 gallon tank and can get 35-40mpg highway, so you are looking at a ~600 mile range stock.
fenuxjde@reddit
40mph towing an extra 800lbs?
davidm2232@reddit
Absolutely. I got 40-42 towing a landscape trailer with my golf tdi
TacTurtle@reddit
Supposedly they get ~43-50mpg highway going 65mph. At a lower more fuel efficient speed of say 55mph, I am guessing the reduced air drag will offset much of the trailer drag - especially if an effort is made to reduce trailer wind resistance by minimizing frontal area and using a short trailer tongue so it tucks in close to the rear of the tow vehicle.
The fuel trailer would essentially be a tiny flat bed utility trailer with 55 gallon drums laid on their side end to end one behind the other, with a spare trailer and car tire either flat next to the drums.
fenuxjde@reddit
Fair point!
I would still seriously reexamine the need to travel 3000 miles under those conditions.
EverGoodHunterMe@reddit
You could make that trip with 2 auxiliary tanks (usually 430L/114 gallons), that fit into the bed of the truck. That'll take up a good chunk of your bed capacity but still do-able. Add in a small trailer and a 3rd tank and you have a pretty healthy buffer.
Comfortable-Angle660@reddit
Most current evidence indicates an EMP will not torch most vehicles, at least what I have read. Would I take the ultimate chance? Probably not, but something to think about.
fenuxjde@reddit
Yeah I absolutely agree, I'm just trying to play into OPs contingencies. Unless a powerful atomic weapons detonates almost directly overheard, the EMP damage is not nearly as severe as people seem to think. We actually experience them frequently and most people don't even realize it.
Little-Carpenter4443@reddit
This might be a dumb idea, but why not get a multi fuel generator and get an electric vehicle?
NotEvenWrongAgain@reddit
A generator is typically less than 20% efficient at turning fuel into electricity. That’s why they’re never used for powering electric heat in a power outage
David_C5@reddit
Why would you do that when you can have a regular fuel car? You will unlikely be able to charge in OP's scenario anyway.
Little-Carpenter4443@reddit
Because even though it would take a while to charge, and there’s pretty major inconveniences, it gets around the issue of types of fuel. With the tri fuel generator, you can use gas or natural gas or propane. If you had a diesel generator as well then that gives you another option and if you had solar, that’s an additional one too. Now they all take forever, but imagine you could have a hybrid where you have electric and gas that you could charge the electric as well.
Now would anything work after any EMP? I have no idea, but I’m just giving ideas!
David_C5@reddit
You are assuming the generator won't fail and you have extreme amounts of fuel. Generator uses basically same tech as the engine in your car. It's lifespan is measured in how much you use, because they are all moving parts that wear out.
If you have that much fuel you are better off with really older vehicles that EMP won't have much of an effect and can run on any fuel even cooking like diesel like many here are suggesting.
Little-Carpenter4443@reddit
Dude, it’s just an idea lol of course there’s going to be issues. There’s issues with everything there’s issues with what you’re saying. Conventional fuel doesn’t last very long. Gasoline will only last a couple of years at the most so what are you gonna do after that? Diesel will last a little bit longer? Propane lasts indefinitely so if you get a propane fuel car, you’d be good to go, but in a short term, there’s going to be a potential abundance of other fuels that you can use. I mean, you can always convert your vehicle to wood gas and have a wood gas burger in the back lol
TacTurtle@reddit
Much much lower efficiency than a traditional ICE vehicle.
SproketRocket@reddit
Propane doesn't need electricity to pump. You can just steal as much propane as you want from any pressurized tanks along the way.
LowBamaJL@reddit
In that type of scenario you probably wouldn’t able to drive that far in any vehicle. Break down in rule of law, chocked highways full of cars and other factors beyond fuel and choice of car.
KlausVonMaunder@reddit
EMP, to be that large and problematic where the scenario would require you to do this, would knock out most modern vehicles with it I gather so there will be plenty of salvageable fuel around, probably right on the roads. Bring a hand siphoning pump in your 1990 diesel truck with an auxiliary 50 gal tank in the bed. Might as well bolt on an expendable RR tie front bumper for plowing abandoned vehicles out of the way.
Fr33speechisdeAd@reddit
That is a long way for travel. If it was me, I would buy a diesel truck like a Cummins or a Powerstroke . Less wear and tear, reliable, and in emergencies you can run it on heating oil or farm diesel. Also, diesel will naturally stay more stable over time because there's no ethanol in it.
davidm2232@reddit
Or get a diesel car. You'll get double the mpgs
DaLadderman@reddit
Problem with that is the fuel alone to get that range would probably put you at your max weight capacity before adding the 5 people + their stuff.
davidm2232@reddit
Legal weight maybe. I've towed a 4k lb trailer with my jetta. It was fine
DaLadderman@reddit
Diesel doesn't last longer because its got no ethanol in it, most of our petrol in Australia has no ethanol in it and it still only lasts 6 months to a year before getting a bit smokey. Ethanol certainly does shorten the life though
SheistyPenguin@reddit
I think you are backing yourself into a corner with all of the constraints you mentioned. As the saying goes, "on a long enough timeline the survival rate for everything drops to zero."
If an ICE vehicle is sitting for months or years, it is going to have issues with dry rot, seals failing, fuel gummed up in the lines, dead battery etc.
Electric and older/diesel vehicles might fare a little better... but on a "no resupply ever" scenario, they are going to last for as long as their weakest part.
At that point you are traveling by horse and buggy. The trip will take weeks or months, and some of you may die of dysentery along the way (See: Oregon Trail 😁)
David_C5@reddit
There ain't no way you are charging 1/2 days worth of travel with 2-3 days of "portable panels" unless your idea of portable means 10x regular solar panels.
A Tesla Model S base model has a 100KWHr battery. Half a day unless you are going at walking speeds is a full charge, or 100KWHr. Even if you have a smaller less consuming model, you are still talking 30KWHr.
sr603@reddit
Go on a 1500-3000 mile trip in todays conditions with the parameters you've set up. You'll see its a challenge. Now multiply it.
shikkonin@reddit
A 1500 mile trip in today's conditions is nothing to write home about. I can do that in my car easily with a full tank and three jerry cans in the boot, requiring only a single stop too transfer the jerry cans into the tank.
No_Walrus@reddit
What in your mind is so challenging? A 1,500 mile trip is not difficult in the slightest, that's only 20-25 hours of driving. Even accounting for stops for fuel and a short sleep, any healthy adult should be able to do that easily in 2 days. A 3000 mile trip is gonna be multiple days, but even then thats not difficult under today's conditions, except the current gas prices.
CurrentWrong4363@reddit
Look at Wood gasification. It's time tested and fuel is available everywhere.
TastyPopcornTosser@reddit
Technically an older Dodge pick up with a 12 valve Cummins in it would do it. All mechanical. You need to haul about 250 gallons of fuel figuring 12 miles a gallon. That’s five barrels in the back which is realistic.
What’s not realistic is thinking that any pick up truck would make it that far without breaking down.
What’s also not realistic is that you would be able to do it without bringing your own private army with you.
Furthermore, it’s really unlikely that roads would be clear.
Wherever it is that you need to get to, move there now.
TacTurtle@reddit
250 gallons would be 1,800 pounds in diesel. Better to go to a more fuel efficient vehicle if possible.
Ghigs@reddit
It would be interesting to see a chart of cargo capacity vs efficiency and total range. I feel like the heavier ones might win. Like a tanker truck full of its own fuel can surely outrange a camry towing its max.
TacTurtle@reddit
Good luck maneuvering a semi tanker of fuel along a highway strewn with broken down vehicles at an reasonable pace.
No_Walrus@reddit
As a former KLR650 owner, this would be super badass. However, OP was taking a family of 5 with him.
TacTurtle@reddit
5x KLR-650s would cost less than a tanker of fuel
No_Walrus@reddit
That's true, but you don't need a tanker, it's totally doable with a diesel pickup or car pulling a small trailer too.
TastyPopcornTosser@reddit
Correct would need like a 1 ton pick up. I was just answering the technical question. I think it’s a terrible idea.
TacTurtle@reddit
Go to a diesel station wagon (merc or bmw), they can get 35-50mpg. Could hit 1500 miles with just 4-5 jerry cans in the back or on a roof rack.
No_Walrus@reddit
1800 lbs is within the bed capacity of most modern 2500 class pickups, a 250 gallon tank barely even peeks above the side of the bed. Step up to a 3500 and you are rated 6-8000 lbs payload, so literally a non issue.
No_Walrus@reddit
As long as roads still exist, I'd expect any halfway maintained truck to be able to make a 3000 mile trip.
wyopyro@reddit
This is a wild prep but my daily driver might actually get you close.
The idea of holding fuel over for that long is crazy. If things are that bad you will likely have used it up just surviving. Or if anyone knows you have it you will die defending it. I will leave the long term fuel storage up to you and the rest of the crowd
I have a 2012 f250 crew cab with a 6.7 diesel. If I'm on the open road driving carefully under 70mph I get 19-21mpg even with some decent weight in the bed. I swapped the main fuel tank for a 60 gallon titan tank and I have aux 70 gallon tank that takes up about 2 ft of the bed that I used before I purchased the titan tank. At 20 mpg this gets you 2600 miles with 5 people and some gear. I regularly drive 1100 miles between fill ups.
Driving this far during crisis is also crazy. The spot I need to get my family to is approximately 400 miles from where we live. I have lots of backroads mapped out on how to make it work (potentially) but it still just takes one person with a rife to stop the entire thing. Let alone if there are checkpoints or road blocks.
Good Luck!
No_Walrus@reddit
I bet you'd get even better milage at 50-55mph, this scenario is a bad idea but actually totally doable.
MerelyMortalModeling@reddit
That's a huge ass ask and like OG Oragin Trails level difficulty. I'd consider just buy a fricken horse, wagon and a bunch of good backpacks.
Seriously though If time in transit wasent an issue maybe consider an electric vehicle and as much portable panels as you could pack. An electric car had the advantage that you could use it and the panels in daily life and it would deliver savings even if you never had to use it for a doomsday day trip.
I literally can't think of any other way to pack enough fuel with zero resupply. The main issue is the more fuel you carry the more weight you have to move, it's almost like the rocket equation's tyranny of fuel issue. When you are talking 3000 miles juat the empty tanks you would need would have a massive weight penalty which means you need a heavy truck and trailer which means even more weight and fuel consumption.
No_Walrus@reddit
2 or 3 55 gallon drums in the back of a diesel pickup, or 1 towed on a small trailer behind a diesel car. Totally possible.
khoawala@reddit
Get a bike
TheSlipperySnausage@reddit
There is no vehicle that could achieve any of this.
davidm2232@reddit
Why not? A vw tdi with 55 gallons of diesel fuel in a trailer could go thousands of miles with no isdur.
Conscious_Pound5522@reddit
Especially a deleted one.
davidm2232@reddit
I'd go pre emissions for simplicity. Like a '97
Diligent_Ad_7232@reddit
Ford F350 Long Bed w/ 6.7L Diesel. Four 55 gallon drums of diesel in bed (\~1700 lb load initially). 16 MPG gets you about 4000 miles assuming a full tank.
Half the bed left for gear. Any other questions?
No_Walrus@reddit
I also agree that this isn't a super realistic prep, but it's fairly achievable with the right equipment. For the best combo of cargo capacity and fuel economy, I'd look for a compact diesel pickup like Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger, Isuzu D-max (all non US models, so good luck there, maybe a Ram Eco Diesel?) These will achieve 30+ MPG at a slower road speeds from 45-55 mph.
I'd then swap to a 33 gallon under bank tank, like these giving me a nominal 990 mile range. There's a couple options to get you to the 100 gallons required to make 3000 miles, either you can add a permanent bed mounted tank like this or you buy 14 Jerry cans and a funnel. Fitting 14 Jerry cans into a 5 foot bed (assuming you got the double cab with a family of 5) is gonna be real tight, in either case I'd look at both a roof rack for more storage space. Also this is gonna add 6-800 lbs of weight to the vehicle before passengers and other cargo, so I'd look at higher load range tires, higher rated leaf springs for the rear, or Air Lift springs and a compressor.
The diesel option is much more flexible in my opinion, and the storage/rotation requirements are not a huge issue if it's something you are driving every day. Get a couple 300 gallon farm tanks and you can order fuel in bulk, just alternate use and keep at least one tank full. Treated diesel lasts for years, especially if you are topping it of with fresh fuel as you use it.
Skalgrin@reddit
Why would you need to travel 3 thousands miles? That is no bugout plan, that is STHF suicide. Roads will not be free nor would it be safe in such scenario. Why would you want to cross the whole USA diagonaly from LA to NY? Or why go from Madrid to Niznij Novgorod? That's insane to be honest...
This is not believable even as a preper wet dream novel. Or not for me at the very least.
davidm2232@reddit
Diesel for sure. It can last almost indefinitely if stored properly. A passat tdi can go 1000 miles on a tank if diesel with no modifications. Add in a 30 gallon tank in the trunk and you have another 900 miles minimum. Add a 55 gallon drum on top of the trunk lid for even more range
shadowlid@reddit
Closest thing I can think of for what your asking would be a wood gas tractor, pulling a trailer. I seen a guy build one on YouTube it's possible and they used wood gas trucks during WW1. Build one of those and you could do what your asking for when you get low on fuel stop for camp chop some wood, and keep on going the next morning. (Yes seasoned wood would be better but stuff that's been down for a while will work just fine).
BCVinny@reddit
You will be the ultimate attention-magnet. All kinds of people will want what you have. And will do anything to get it
Ubockinme@reddit
Which one can barbecue your friends the best?
iambecomesoil@reddit
This is the Rocket Problem. The heavier the rocket, the more fuel required to move the rocket, and the more fuel required to move that fuel, etc.
But simple estimates are a drop in fuel mileage of 25% at least for propane conversion.
Consider a vehicle at 20mpg, now 15mpg of propane. That's 200 gallons of propane at around 4.2ish pounds per gallon or let's say 848 pounds of fuel.
For a truck not so bad but that might start busting you down.
If you say that your mileage is 10mpg with the weight of fuel and supplies, you'd need 300 gallons at 1,272 pounds. You're primarily hauling fuel at this point but it's doable.
It feels like an extreme scenario you've cooked up though. In an EMP scenario, you're not going 3000 miles anywhere.
mistakenidentity888@reddit
You can burn whatever oily stuff you can find in a mechanical diesel.
Not sure how you're going to make more propane
Jupitor13@reddit
After an EMP (caused by a high altitude nuclear burst, not a ground or air burst) will destroy all electronics.
So your car won’t start, your radios won’t radio, your computers, well they are full of memories that are erased.
In your case, get a propane car. That way you can use the propane as a cooking fuel.
shikkonin@reddit
Depends on the car.
Jupitor13@reddit
You are right. A car without any kind of electronic controlled ignition, fuel system, etc.
A mechanical distributor? A carburetor? One over 25 years old?
Name a car that can survive an EMP. Other than a Radhard military vehicle.
TacTurtle@reddit
1990s Ford pickup with an IDI diesel, 1990s Dodges with Cummins 12 valves, most 2000s cars with shielded electronic and separate engine management computers and the radio antenna removed.
shikkonin@reddit
Pretty much any Diesel car with a mechanical fuel pump. So basically any Mercedes until the early 2000s or so.
Carbon87@reddit
Easy.
1994-1996 Dodge Ram 2500 with a Cummins and a Manual Transmission.
MerelyMortalModeling@reddit
EMP Isent magic and is all about wavelength and amplitude. It's wave length must be short enough to interact with an electrical element and the amplitude must be large enough to deliver energy.
In the case of most cars and assuming their computers are in the engine compartment their metal body and firewall will protect their electronics from long frequently radiation. If they are close enough to a detonation where short ER is at destructive levels they likely have bigger issues
LastEntertainment684@reddit
I’ve got a ‘94 Diesel F350. No computer so it should be fairly EMP resistant but fuel economy isn’t great at about 14mpg. With an auxiliary tank it can travel about 1000 miles on ~70 or so gallons of diesel. That’s about 500lbs of diesel.
We had a converted propane F250 at work and that got about 11mpg on the highway. So to go 1000 miles you’re talking 90 gallons of propane which ends up being about 650-700lbs with the tank. That’s like a 120gallon size tank, quite big.
I also have a Ford Lightning EV. Using a generator and the same 90 gallons of propane I could probably get closer to 1,500miles in summer. Again, you’re talking 650-700lbs.
Trying to carry 5 people, plus gear, plus fuel for 3000 miles is going to be a lot of weight and bulk. I can’t see too many solutions that would work without a “3/4 ton” or greater truck/van/suv.
I think your best bet would probably be a commercial 3/4 ton van with a smaller diesel like a Cummins 4bt. It can be fairly simple, have the payload capacity you need, and it could get over 20mpg. Which would mean getting away with “only” carrying about 1,000lbs of diesel.
Downside would be its slow, off-road capability might not be great, and you would need to cycle fuel, which is costly.
TacTurtle@reddit
Quigley 4x4 E-350 diesel van (built on a F-350 drivetrain) or a 1990s diesel Subruban
Tells-Tragedies@reddit
A vehicle with wood gas conversion will work much better for the scenario, but the scenario is absurd.
TacTurtle@reddit
Propane will never have sufficient energy density per unit volume unless you are maybe driving a literal tanker trailer and semi, and can be entirely eliminated from consideration.
1500-3000 miles with totally unblocked roads is incredibly unrealistic, as vehicles would be abandoned where the they died, especially on interstates with limited to no shoulders to pull off.
You would need something with excellent fuel economy and ability to tow a fuel trailer.
A BMW 328d Wagon for instance could get 35-40mpg if roads were completely empty and you could cruise at 55mph, so you would theoretically "only" need about 87 gallons of diesel which would weigh about 625lbs.
For practicality, let's round it up to 110 gallons in 2x 55 gallon drums which would be around 770lbs in fuel and ~100lbs in steel drum. Throw on a spare trailer and car tire and you are at roughly 1000lbs, which would fit on a small 40"x48" trailer.
roberttheiii@reddit
Go drive 3000 miles with no resupply now, today, in America / Canada. Now go someplace else, say South America, or Africa and try to do the same thing. I would wager that shortly have an EMP America would become as impassable as say South America or Africa both in terms of boarder crossings, potential hostility, and worst of off, questionable road conditions. Save up for a plane or move.
Many-Health-1673@reddit
Diesel is your best bet. Using an older truck with mechanical everything you are looking at 16 - 18 mpg tops with 5 people and gear. Find a way to polish your diesel fuel and keep extra filters and water separators handy.
Say 100 gallons of fuel for 1,500 miles at 16mpg with a little to spare. 200 gallons for 3,000 with a little to spare.
Lots of potential other problems on the road, but 200 gallons of fuel isnt hard to store.
silasmoeckel@reddit
Diesel goes bad via oxidation, bacteria, and water.
3k miles is 300 gal at 10mpg so a single oil tank in your basement keeps the temps good and stable.
Your can seal it to stop air and water (better yet replace the air on top with an inert gas like co2).
No water means no bacterial growth but add an inhibiter.
Then when your going to use it you filter the snot out of it and separate water that will keep any sludge issues at bay.
If you have some money to spend, storage filters/polishers are a thing for diesel and used in marine settings. It's pretty much the same filter set and a small pump to keep filtering it. EMP your going to need solar to power this and probably a backup setup protected just in case.
Now the vehicle truck obviously. 3/4 ton or larger. A couple sets of fuel pumps filters and injectors, just in case along with a filtering setup for found fuel. You can easily fit half of that fuel into extended tanks and a transfer in the bed. The rest in 3x55's on the trailer. 2 Trucks/trailer would be better, would go a toy hauler camper on one for living space with storage and cargo on the other (with basic sleeping/cooking).
Propane stores well I have a huge buried tank (try doing that legally with diesel nowadays). Transferring it is not trivial. You need about 1/3 more gallons of LPG than diesel. 20gal per 100lbs tank means you need 20 tanks for your trip per vehicle with little to no chance of resupply of found fuel.
Diesel can be made from plastics it's not energy efficient but it's fairly simple, same filtering setup just in case otherwise it's just a metal tank of some sort that's air tight and some piping.
fastowl76@reddit
Actually the concern is algae growth. If the tank 'breathes' it will get exposed to it as well as water vapor. It used to be before low sulfur fuel was mandated the sulfur inhibited algae growth. There are algaecides that can be added to prevent this. It is also an issue in hydaulic fluid these days as well. I have an old tractor that i am constantly fighting this issue on its hydraulic system. The tractor had cracked rubber boots on the shifters, etc. that allowed some water to get in years ago.
wwglen@reddit
Look on YouTube for videos about solar powered e-bikes.
ihatespam_yesIdo@reddit
Horses and a wagon.
phoneacct696969@reddit
I don’t like to travel that far even when things are good. Why do you need to go 3000 miles during a crises? Weird thought experiment…
Spectres_N7@reddit
Bicycle, horse, own two feet
Friendly_Shopping286@reddit
A vehicle able to run on 100% ethanol.
You can effectively store ethanol indefinitely
Top_Wolverine_4669@reddit
If I want to travel 1500 miles how much fuels do I need to carry
shikkonin@reddit
Why rely on stored fuel only? Drive a diesel and fuel it with the original Diesel fuel: plant oil.
WiskeyUniformTango@reddit
I do not feel this is a realistic prep.
If your situation were really needed, roads would be blocked with disabled vehicles, and vehicles seen running will be hijacked by large groups.
There is no way you can travel thst distance safely when no one else has fuel.
JRHLowdown3@reddit
Driving around with a huge propane tank in the back of a vehicle in a hostile environment? Yeah ah no 😄