Cookie Cutter ATP Question / Looking for Advice
Posted by Platterskill@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 35 comments
I'm 22, live in NYS. I got my PPL at 17 and had huge plans to move forward towards a professional career. Also at 17, I went to Academy of Aviation to fast-track my instrument rating. I hated the flight school completely; the instructor wasn't that great, and I didn't enjoy their pace. They tried forcing me to take my written after 2 weeks of training. I told them I didn't feel ready, and they responded by telling me I couldn't proceed with flight or sim training until I did the written. I progressed through the stages quite fast, as I'm better at flying than test taking. I left the school and returned to my local CFI to continue working. Things slowed down when I got distracted by my girlfriend at the time, and my flight training took the back burner for several years.
Fast forward to now; I work a relatively well-paying job, but I hate what I do and still want to pursue my flying career. I have 150TT, I primarily fly a PA-28-181 & a PA-28-236. At 20, I purchased a brand new Mustang GT and an F-150, and I put myself into some debt. Not sure why I did that, but I did. So for the past two years, I've been working my butt off and paying down the loans. I tried to fly as often as I could, but with New York weather and the fact that I worked night shift, things never lined up. I've flown maybe 20 hours in the past two years. I'm now in a situation where I have the savings to afford to go to flight school and still pay my bills. One vehicle is being sold, and I've got some assets to sell, as well as a decent 401(k), which I plan on cashing in to assist with living expenses while there.
I've heard horror stories about ATP, and I've heard awesome stories from ATP. I'm planning to go to Lakeland, FL. I hated the last flight school I was at, although I question if some of that was my age and place in my life at the time. I'm so eager to get this done and get into a routine of life, working the career that I want instead of a dead-end job that I dread going to. Doing part 61 at my local flight club while working nights doesn't work for me; I feel a dedicated school is my only option. I love Florida, and I would love to live there. Does anyone have opinions/suggestions as to whether I'm making a good choice or not? I like the fact that there's an almost guaranteed CFI position. Granted, CFIs are needed everywhere, and it's not hard to find students these days. I will say, however, Syracuse, NY, is not the best place for it. There is a possibility that I could get a job flying right seat in a Lear 60 once I complete CMEL and hit 750 hours due to a connection that I have. That offer has been on the table for years due to how well I fly (I don't mean to sound like that guy), and I've completely screwed it up. I'm running out of time on that. All in all, I feel like I'm getting old (lol) and about to miss my window for this career. I always told myself, "Oh, I have time, I can't get my ATP until I'm 23 anyway." but now I'm 8 months away from being 23, and I'm no closer to it than when I was 17. Any advice is appreciated.
OrionX3@reddit
I’m generally a pretty positive guy, but…
You acknowledged the bad car decisions, but there is no good reason to go to full time flight school with $30k+ of car debt and ABSOLUTELY no reason to cash out your “decent” 401k for living expenses. If you need that to get by then you need to save more money to do this. You said you’ve paid for the bad decisions but if you had you wouldn’t be thinking of paying penalties on your retirement.
You dropped out of a fast track school because you didn’t like fast track schools, now you want to go into truckloads of debt and move across the country to go to the more notoriously disliked fast track school in the country. Also, it is not a guaranteed CFI job that is marketing, which you seem to fall for pretty hard, and it is not easy to find CFI jobs at all right now.
Also, not to be like “you aren’t that guy” but bro you fly pipers. How well you fly a piper cannot even correlate to how well you fly a corporate jet. Beyond that, I almost guarantee you that offer doesn’t exist until you have 500 hours of multi time due to insurance, speaking as someone that flies corporate and knows the barriers to entry.
In summary, this is a bad idea. You need to pay off the vehicle you don’t sell, and have enough saved to not touch your retirement at a bare minimum. You’re 23, if your parents are local to you and they’d let you I’d rather move back in with them and cash flow 61 school as quick as you can with low living expenses than go to ATP. I’m tracking what you said about night shift, but it can be done. I worked with guys on night shift and we fly at the crack of dawn after they got off then they went home and went to bed. It’s manageable
Platterskill@reddit (OP)
I didn’t at all mean that because I fly a Piper I could fly a private jet. I know it’s totally different and that I’m at the bottom of the food chain lol. I meant more like, this friend (my cfi), has seen me build time and improve as a pilot and is impressed and would be willing to hire me on at a lower hour mark. He speaks all the time about pilots coming fresh from school and needing a TON of work before they even send them to flight safety to be typed. Whereas with me he knows how I was trained and it would be an easier transition. I’m sure there are barriers, but from what he told me the only insurance requirement that would affect me would be the total time of 750. Not sure how true it is, again, i’m just reiterating what I was told.
I’ll definitely look into some other options, I’m pretty much talked out of ATP. Didn’t take much I guess.
OrionX3@reddit
When did he tell you that? Because the insurance minimum problems from what I have heard were really only in the last 3-4 years
Platterskill@reddit (OP)
Thank you all for the honest advice, even the harsh advice. Perhaps it’s what I needed. I don’t have the answers or any clue as to how to finish this up the smart way, but it would seem ATP is not anywhere close to that.
I definitely made some dumb choices a few years ago with vehicles, I’ll be the first to admit it. I recognize that one or both need to be sold and then I’ll be able to focus more of my income on flight time. Thank you all for the time you took in your replies, you’ve definitely got me thinking & exploring other options.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Wow that’s awesome congrats
(I didn’t read any of that)
Ok_Bottle_7568@reddit
Why do you say atp is bad? I talk to students who go there at my local airport and they say its great
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
You talk to students not people who have experience in the industry.
Ok_Bottle_7568@reddit
Waiting for you to tell me
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
I don’t need to spoon feed you common information
No-Perspective-8245@reddit
He asked a question, you responded but didn’t answer it. Now you say “I don’t need to feed you common knowledge”
Bro what 😂
Ok_Bottle_7568@reddit
Thats reddit for ya
TxAggieMike@reddit
Please read what our friend, u/RaiseTheDed, has compiled about Flight Training at ATP.
TxAggieMike@reddit
Please read what our friend, u/RaiseTheDed, has compiled about Flight Training at ATP.
MondayNightRawr@reddit
All I read was Mustang, F150, ATP. Stop, just stop rethink everything. You’re making a lot of bad decisions get out of debt, sell one of the vehicles and rethink everything.
mustardgas_roses451@reddit
Don’t forget cashing out 401k.
CluelessPilot1971@reddit
Wait until you get to "Granted, CFIs are needed everywhere, and it's not hard to find students these days".
To OP: CFIs are having a hard time finding jobs. People move across the country for a position, and many of them can't find any employment as CFIs.
Platterskill@reddit (OP)
To clarify, I owe 32k between both the vehicles. I’ve paid the price for making those poor decisions a few years ago. I agree that there’s a lot of thought that needs to go into my next steps. I’m just not sure what I’m supposed to consider. Working my current job & trying to fly to progress isn’t working, besides a well defined flight school I guess I fail to see what other options I have. I can’t get any other sort of loan for flying unless it’s a school.
Wedge_Donovan@reddit
You have not paid the price. You still own both vehicles, which is absolutely asinine as a 22yo.
You should "consider" selling both vehicles, buying a reasonably priced used car, and paying off the car loans before you go into any more debt whatsoever, for any reason, especially flight training from an organization with a track record of hanging its grads out to dry and not having jobs for them like they promise in their marketing materials.
If you're $32k in debt now and it sucks, it's going to suck a lot worse when you're $142k in debt and can't get a CFI job at the end of ATP's "program" .
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Bruh. You owe $32k and you’re 22 years old. You need to sell one of those vehicles yesterday
Platterskill@reddit (OP)
I made 82k last year and that’s with 3 months out of work to help my mother. That’s why it was okay at the time to do what I did. It’s good money. I gave up on flying for a while as sort of given by the original post. It’s not that I can’t afford what I have, it’s that I didn’t plan on trying to finish flying when I made the decisions I made. Now I’m trying to find the best solution given the situation I’m in. I’m feeling pressure from my family, myself, as well as CFI’s. It’s what I want I’m just trying to get there fast but smart.
MondayNightRawr@reddit
$82k is not enough money to own to expensive cars. Pay off your debt, save some money, and then go flying.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Keep that job and pay off your debts and then save about $50k to pay for flight training as you go.
wtonb@reddit
This
FridayMcNight@reddit
You did it because you fell victim to Ford's highly skilled marketing team. They were able to convince you to give them heaps of money you had not yet earned for vehicles you didn't need. I'm not here to bust your balls about that. They are very good at what they do. What I'm sayin is this... you seem really close to understanding how you got duped by Ford, but not close enough to see that ATP is doing the same thing.
There is noting special about ATP. They're just an ordinary part 61 school, just focused on an aggressive up or out model. They churn out decent pilots because they "fire" the ones that can't get it done. It might be a good fir for you, and it might not, But you should understand that they need you a lot more than you need them.
Also, new CFIs are not needed everywhere. There's been a bumper crop of fresh CFIs the last few years, and even ATP doesn't hire most of the newly minted CFIs they create.
Platterskill@reddit (OP)
I certainly did fall for it, although I will say I love cars and it’s one thing that makes me who I am. I bought the car first since I had the extra money, then my daily got totaled due to getting rear ended. I bought the truck to replace it (ny winters suck, i like to use my truck for truck things so it made sense at the time). I guess I’m just looking for a solid plan as to how to finish my training. Despite how things may look, i’m not a fly by the seat of my pants kind of guy. I like things written out and planned. Although I definitely don’t want to spend 100k if there’s a cheaper and easier way.
FridayMcNight@reddit
There are a few ways to get the training cheaper:
But these points aside... you're not really asking how to get the training cheaper, you're asking how to get it faster. ATP is likely to be faster than a typical part 61 school if you're a self starter and fast learner. But faster training comes at a price. Faster and cheaper rarely go together.
Faster seems important to you because you hate your job and someone has you convinced that 22 is old.
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
The sooner you stop thinking of your vehicles and other stuff you own as "defining" yourself, the better off you'll be.
blueBaggins1@reddit
Youve already got your PPL, why not just keep working and pay your way through, you dont want a ton of debt and thats what yoilll grt from ATP. Dont double down on dumb decisions when you just dug yourself out a hole
ltcterry@reddit
This is unrealistic.
Don’t use “I hate my job” as an excuse to quit for “full time flight training.” You’ll be broke, still in debt, and unemployed. Maybe even unemployable.
Not working just adds to the cost. Both during training and after. The resume you’ll build will not be competitive. Some people just throw ATP resumes in the trash.
If you don’t like your job, find a new job. If you don’t like debt then keep working on that. If you want to fly do it locally alongside working.
2025 was a record setting year for pilot production - over 20,000 new Commercial Pilots but less than 8,000 new ATPs. Over 13,000 new instructors for about 4,000 instructor jobs.
About 1/3 of these new pilots will get hired. Tens of thousands of them will never get a flying job. There is no need to rush into that mess.
If you want to fly, by all means do so. Just use good judgement, common sense, and financial smarts to do so.
Worldx22@reddit
How do you plan to support yourself while in FL?
ATP is a terrible choice. You may as well set your money on fire. Even buying that Mustang was a better idea than going to ATP.
Also, CFIs needed everywhere? Where exactly? We got CFIs driving Uber here in FL...
TxAggieMike@reddit
please read what our friend, u/RaiseTheDed, has compiled about Flight Training at ATP.
Read Total Money Makeover and start listening to Dave Ramsey’s radio program and podcasts.
Mad_Rooster_7164@reddit
Wat
harshtruthsdelivered@reddit
Let me summarize this:
Dropped out of a fast track school because you didn't like the fast track.
Girls, cars, debt.
You want to attend another fast track school with a high probability of more debt.
Sounds great!
If I had a dollar for every low time pilot who had "a connection" that would put him into the right seat of a jet as soon as they "get x number of hours" I could retire.
Platterskill@reddit (OP)
your username did not disappoint…
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I'm 22, live in NYS. I got my PPL at 17 and had huge plans to move forward towards a professional career. Also at 17, I went to Academy of Aviation to fast-track my instrument rating. I hated the flight school completely; the instructor wasn't that great, and I didn't enjoy their pace. They tried forcing me to take my written after 2 weeks of training. I told them I didn't feel ready, and they responded by telling me I couldn't proceed with flight or sim training until I did the written. I progressed through the stages quite fast, as I'm better at flying than test taking. I left the school and returned to my local CFI to continue working. Things slowed down when I got distracted by my girlfriend at the time, and my flight training took the back burner for several years.
Fast forward to now; I work a relatively well-paying job, but I hate what I do and still want to pursue my flying career. I have 150TT, I primarily fly a PA-28-181 & a PA-28-236. At 20, I purchased a brand new Mustang GT and an F-150, and I put myself into some debt. Not sure why I did that, but I did. So for the past two years, I've been working my butt off and paying down the loans. I tried to fly as often as I could, but with New York weather and the fact that I worked night shift, things never lined up. I've flown maybe 20 hours in the past two years. I'm now in a situation where I have the savings to afford to go to flight school and still pay my bills. One vehicle is being sold, and I've got some assets to sell, as well as a decent 401(k), which I plan on cashing in to assist with living expenses while there.
I've heard horror stories about ATP, and I've heard awesome stories from ATP. I'm planning to go to Lakeland, FL. I hated the last flight school I was at, although I question if some of that was my age and place in my life at the time. I'm so eager to get this done and get into a routine of life, working the career that I want instead of a dead-end job that I dread going to. Doing part 61 at my local flight club while working nights doesn't work for me; I feel a dedicated school is my only option. I love Florida, and I would love to live there. Does anyone have opinions/suggestions as to whether I'm making a good choice or not? I like the fact that there's an almost guaranteed CFI position. Granted, CFIs are needed everywhere, and it's not hard to find students these days. I will say, however, Syracuse, NY, is not the best place for it. There is a possibility that I could get a job flying right seat in a Lear 60 once I complete CMEL and hit 750 hours due to a connection that I have. That offer has been on the table for years due to how well I fly (I don't mean to sound like that guy), and I've completely screwed it up. I'm running out of time on that. All in all, I feel like I'm getting old (lol) and about to miss my window for this career. I always told myself, "Oh, I have time, I can't get my ATP until I'm 23 anyway." but now I'm 8 months away from being 23, and I'm no closer to it than when I was 17. Any advice is appreciated.
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