Has anyone actually seen an outsourced dev team from a big Indian IT firm deliver something on time that didn’t need to be rebuilt?
Posted by eatmeat@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 217 comments
Not trying to be inflammatory, genuine question, I work in a big media company and we’ve been through this and I’m trying to understand if this is just us or a pattern.
The model seems to be: enterprise signs a big contract, gets a large team of developers who are technically competent but have zero context on the product, zero urgency about the deadline, zero accountability when something ships broken because the contract doesn’t allow for penalties on their own errors, and the onshore team spends more time writing requirements for the offshore team than they would have spent just building the thing themselves.
The billing is monthly and flat. The incentive to finish is therefore nonexistent. The incentive to scope creep and extend is enormous.
I’ve watched a six month delay on something described internally as a five minute task. I’ve watched basic features ship broken and stay broken for months. I’ve watched the same discovery meeting happen four times because the person who attended the last one left the company.
Is this the model or did we just get unlucky?
throwaway_0x90@reddit
Yup, I've seen it succeed.
ambassador_pineapple@reddit
13 years of experience at multiple scales: the answer is no.
oupablo@reddit
In my experience, it's very hard for women to get a chance to speak up at all. Having worked at companies with teams in India, at one, the best dev on one team was a woman. Any time she would try to explain something, it was almost a given that someone else on the team would try to talk over her. Her opinions weren't outright rejected but she push harder to be heard than most people on the team and on more than one occasion someone would have to cut off people trying to talk over her to give her the floor back.
Suspicious-Engineer7@reddit
DEI works
ambassador_pineapple@reddit
How did you arrive at that conclusion? I am inherently against quotas. If I am ever asked to hire more of X type of people, I will just tell them to get me good resumes of X type of people.
Hire the best person for the job. Nothing else matters.
Suspicious-Engineer7@reddit
You said yourself that this team you had was diverse
HowTheStoryEnds@reddit
A team of 8 white guys that went to MIT is also diverse, they all will have their individual strengths and weaknesses they bring to the table.
ambassador_pineapple@reddit
Absolutely. Hell of a diverse team. But it was diversity that organically emerged rather than forced.
We never sought to do it but it happened. But I understand what you mean. Misunderstood your point.
hungry_dawoodi@reddit
It is forced. Forced by your principles of merit and your organizational culture.
Left organically, people default to their own bias and comfort zones. Bond over common experiences and struggles.
In my limited experience I have seen diverse groups clustered and get all the downside of diversity without the upside in the name of “let’s not micromanage”.
But I get your point. Diversity by merit 👍🏻 diversity by quota 👎
I guess I just needed to vent 😂😂😂
WJMazepas@reddit
DEI is not about outsourcing to India my dude
talldean@reddit
I had a 45 person dev team, 40 were external from a large Indian consultancy.
Two of them were *fantastic*. Several could be fantastic when they chose to be. The rest I don't know if they even knew how to code, or were just there to fill seats so the consultancy could bill for more engineers.
I realized one of the fantastic ones was doing the bulk of work that was being represented as 40 people's worth of effort, and the other fantastic one was proactively fixing things instead of just looking busy.
The execs on my end would to have made a career limiting move to admit this wasn't working well, so they didn't admit that.
lol_alex@reddit
These guys get shit pay for shit hours and haven‘t got much of a chance to advance in their companies. They take that job as a CV entry, and go on to hopefully something better in two year‘s time.
Another thing is corporate culture. Indians hate to say no. Will not say they don‘t know the answer even if it‘s clear that they don‘t. Will never criticize or offer improvements if they think your concept sucks because it would be insulting. But in return they also don‘t take criticism well.
I had a team that was mixed Chinese / German / American and it was similar. The Chinese guys were supposed to learn from us, but they were afraid to say that they did not know how to do a task. They were also afraid to admit something had gone wrong. I actually had to do a weekly thing called „F*ck up Friday“ where we got together to discuss things that had gone wrong, and why. But us Western guys had to go first so they understood we weren‘t infallible either. It took a long time for them to warm up to the idea that we all make mistakes and it‘s OK to admit that.
There are exceptions when people have worked in a foreign company for some time and have learned that it‘s not personal, it‘s about the issue at hand.
oupablo@reddit
Well, in their defense, a lot of onshore teams work this way too. Management thinks more people means faster. They hire more people with zero consideration for capability then expect more output. A handful of people end up doing the bulk of the work while the rest do nothing or actively make things worse.
SirDale@reddit
I was testing software built by an Indian team.
They wrote a date routine and got it wrong. Any time a "29th Feb Leap Year" came along I got a 1/1/1970 date popping out.
boost2525@reddit
What's with the desire to write things that already exist in the native SDK or well known libraries? The number of times I've had to send back bad code with comments like "don't reinvent the wheel, use StringUtils" is insane.
Salty-Wrap-1741@reddit
Sounds weird to write something so universal yourself.
SirDale@reddit
Yep, wtf would anyone not grab one off the shelf?
Visa5e@reddit
Not-Invented-Here syndrome. Pretty bad with dates. You look at date libraries and they can be pretty huge. So you think 'I dont need all that, I'll just DIY.
And then you encounter the edge cases, and historical oddities and so you end up fixing them. Rinse and repeat....and then you realise why date libraries are so huge.
DisjointedHuntsville@reddit
What were these devs paid ? I could say the same for low cost software engineers in Australia.
Icy_Accident2769@reddit
Yep similar experience. They are not all incompetent, but the majority is. And the ones that are competent sadly are also the ones leaving first.
talldean@reddit
Those two, a variety of people were pushing to hire full time, and a variety of people were willing to do their damndest to sponsor a visa. I still keep up with them years later, as well, they were solid, both as developers and as people.
I suspect a lotta the others could have been solid, but the culture was setup against them *doing* that, without a big risk on their end.
onandoffhere@reddit
You've hit this on the head. Most tech orgs in India promote people not because they have the skill or deserve the bump, but because they have been with the org for enough period of the time. They think that because he/she has been at the level for so long we have to promote them. This often leads to incompetency at the decision making roles which then propagates to the individuals under them as that is what they learn and for the ones who are mildly good already, learn how to cope with them instead of furthering their skill!
K3idon@reddit
Maybe it’s cultural but they also tend not to disagree or voice concerns unless in private. Which means things that could’ve been resolved early become problems later.
ricky_clarkson@reddit
I've been on both sides, albeit not in India. It's a different kind of cultural. The culture of outsourcing vs owning, rather than a country's culture.
I was an outsourcer (thankfully only a few years) who ignored all that as it wasn't my background, and behaved like a product owner. People were scared to behave like that, due to the sales-y relationship between the two companies.
sinist3rr@reddit
There’s a theory I heard of where in any org 50% of work is done by square root of number of employees, so in that group about 6 employees would do 50% of workload.
Neither_Berry_100@reddit
I heard something similar. In small teams everyone works. As the size of the company grows you end up with a few people doing most of the work.
MakaSka@reddit
Sound less like incompetence and more like corruption on the part of the other company.
scFleetFinder@reddit
Out of curiosity, is there something in these contracts that prevent you from hiring their developers, if you wanted to do that?
FrickenHamster@reddit
Yes, theres always employee protection in contracting agreements.
Otherwise companies would just use contractors as a cheap way to poach employees. The contracting company doesn't want to lose their employees to customers.
There was ways around it, often involving delicate negotiations and finders fees. I've seen a case where this blew up because our contractor went to his boss, rather than waiting for our company to initiate the negotiation.
pwnrzero@reddit
100 percent the case in all outsources I have seen. 2-3 people do the work out of 40+ devs.
It's noticeable, we're onshoring personnel, just not quick enough imo.
thekwoka@reddit
Should have cut deals to directly hire the 2 good ones and pay them half the total comp to the 40 people
zio_neo@reddit
I has a similar experience with a remote team. 1-2 devs doing the bulk for the work for the other 8. That said I found that the more effort I put into defining requirements and providing example patterns, the better the output on the other end. Now - when you get down to that level of specificity, you're likely better off just doing the work yourself, but politics gonna politics. We had a mandate to use a certain percentage of off shore folks. I often think if roles were reversed and I was being handed a vague set of requirements with little oversight, id probably miss the mark too.
Worldly-Pie-5210@reddit
My first gig had a ukraine team. everything they shipped was buggy and needed to be refactored.
my current gig has a ukraine team which is highly competent. interestingly enough the other parts of their company aren't competent. simultaneously another team at that same company shipped us a completely broken feature.
like most things with humans, it seems to be dependent on individuals, not teams, not orgs, not countries or cultures. people are highly variable.
SequentialHustle@reddit
brazil and eastern europe have been the best countries i’ve worked with contractors from.
chicocvenancio@reddit
We have bad devs just like the rest of them. But the language barrier is a high barrier in Brazil, devs taht learn English in Brazil tend to be more inclined to learn. We also quickly abandon low paying offshoring jobs for better paying ones in companies that are full remote.
arstarsta@reddit
There are still normal distribution with different mean and standard variation even if there is overlap.
dbxp@reddit
I worked with a couple Ukrainians who were fantastic. Apologised for taking a couple hours out when the bombing started and then made up the hours in the evening 🤣
Watchful1@reddit
India is a big country and has lots of devs. Some are great, some aren't. The pros and cons of outsourcing is an important topic worthy of discussion here. But anyone suggesting that bad results from hiring Indian devs is in any way related to their culture or race will be banned. If you have that opinion, just keep it to your self.
CampfireHeadphase@reddit
I fully agree with the anti-racist stance and discussions often being out the worst in some people, but to suggest cultural differences don't matter unnecessarily limits the discussion and contradicts the lived experience of.. everyone, ever.
Sworn@reddit
He's not saying it doesn't matter, he's saying you're not allowed to discuss it regardless if true or not.
peripateticman2026@reddit
Elsewhere, where?
lWinkk@reddit
At 5:01pm in my kitchen with my non tech family members who have no idea what I’m talking about.
Dawido090@reddit
Just say "no" vro
diaop@reddit
Thank you moddy for putting it out there.
Auninc@reddit
Wow, you are getting downvoted. For a bunch of supposedly really smart guys there is a lot of racists around here it seems.
EliSka93@reddit
Nobody likes to see themselves as racist.
While I agree we should be able to discuss cultural issues, it does seem a little ridiculous to me that people think we can malign "Indian culture" quite that easily, because of just how large and culturally diverse India actually is.
Auninc@reddit
Yeah, my respect for people here just went down the drain, this is NOT how any experienced developer should conduct himself but here we are.
SuqahMahdiq@reddit
so they can take our livelihoods but we have to keep quiet. ok man. thanks.
ikariw@reddit
The developers are not taking your livelihood, the company they work for is offering a service that other companies are free to use or not - your company has made a decision to use that service.
JimDabell@reddit
I’m not going to make that argument here, but I will point out that when you ask Indians what’s up, an awful lot of them will bring up cultural problems. Blaming it on race is racist, but if Indians are saying that cultural issues contribute to the problem then I’m not going to ignore them.
codescapes@reddit
What's regrettable is that sites like Reddit being so unforgiving and ready to witch hunt with bans is that it entrenches negative perceptions by the shadow of the things you "aren't allowed to say". There is little recognition of the fact that discourse on polarising topics can be a necessary release valve and that repression of contentious / offensive perspectives can absolutely make attitudes fester.
The reflex should not be "ban XYZ" but rather "foster quality discussion". It should be more like growing a garden by picking out weeds instead of relying on threats and fear of bans. If people are throwing around slurs and aggressively agendising then get rid of them but if it's authentic discourse there should be a little charity.
It's not like people's attitudes change if they get banned, they just go to another platform that wont ban them and probably get more extreme in their position.
lardsack@reddit
its ok to be offensive you know, we're all adults here
chikamakaleyley@reddit
finally, a sense of humor
Icy_Accident2769@reddit
We should be allowed to discuss downsides of a culture. We do it with Europeans and Americans as well, every culture has bad things. India has a big downside in their way of dealing with seniority (in age and function, these are often closely related to each other).
This often results in them not saying out loud they don’t understand something. Or they don’t dare to speak up against someone in a more senior position if they have a better idea. Simply asking if they understand something is moot since most will say yes anyway. They have to adjust but we can also phrase our questions better.
PTTCollin@reddit
This has been a consistent tension between the users of the subreddit and the mods. I don't expect there will be much movement there, as both sides have both strong convictions and justifiable underlying beliefs that don't comport to each other.
Icy_Accident2769@reddit
Reddit also gives warnings for saying this out loud. It’s so stupid and must be an American thing to be this sensitive.
Majority on our field uses scrum based on empirical observation based evidence. We all observe there is something consistently going wrong when working with Indians. It’s not that they are unschooled, it’s not that they are not nice, but still projects fail. There must be a cultural mismatch in our way of working and it’s weird we can’t say it out loud or get banned.
thekwoka@reddit
You can say white people don't have culture, but to say anything negative about other cultures is a no no
aioli_boi@reddit
Yeah this is exactly why this rule exists. Racists will grab and grab and grab until it’s just them in this sub.
Go read an engineering book, stop getting your politics from 4chan and YouTube algorithms bro
SubstantialSeesaw374@reddit
The same people that signed the contract from OP control what you can say online. They don’t want to hear anything bad about their purchase. “Nananana, can’t hear you”
psyyduck@reddit
This is a very superficial read of the situation. Racism is about power. It’s sold as “Haitians are eating dogs”, and the end goal is deporting millions of brown people. The mods correctly don’t care about criticizing Europeans or Americans because there isn’t that background threat of ruining their lives.
SubstantialSeesaw374@reddit
Haven’t there been a half-dozen or more companies taken to court because they stopped hiring Americans?
PTTCollin@reddit
If you hold a strong position between the two sides, then yes a neutrally stated observation of both will read as "superficial", yes.
But the people who disagree with you feel the same way in the opposite direction. This isn't me fence sitting, I have an opinion myself, but the comment you're replying to was observing that the mods of the subreddit and the upvoted majority of the users disagree on what's appropriate discussion for the forum.
psyyduck@reddit
Again, this is a case of abuse. It sounds inflammatory to say, but it’s also accurate and your framing isn’t. It’s like you’re watching a case of domestic abuse, the woman has black eyes and you “neutrally” try to say they’re just “disagreeing”. Yes Trump won the popular vote and it’s entirely possible for the majority of users here to be racists just like him.
dubious_capybara@reddit
Why would a culture of avoiding admissions of fault, and being reactive instead of proactive be irrelevant or worthy of suppression?
SubstantialSeesaw374@reddit
I mean, I know why but I can’t say why…
jerricco@reddit
This kind of whattaboutism is why we have such low quality in the industry.
A country literally enacted policy to flood the rest of the world with poor underqualified workers. That country regretted that decision and scaled it back, recognising a lot of the issues this post brought up.
I am not sure if you are an American, but it seems to me that its an insurmountable American quality in that all discussions about a country's actions are racially motivated and justified by a racial lense.
Please choose instead to do some technical research and critical thinking for posts like this, because people on reddit and largely the US can't seem to get past these ideas clung onto from the 60s. An argument needed addressing and you, the mod, have now leaned into the argument about pure race entirely on your own.
If people are knee jerk reacting with racist content, remove it. That's your role here. Not to assume politics exist when in reality you yourself lack the understanding of a country enough to weigh in with more.
thekwoka@reddit
I used to think like this until I moved to a country with a predominant Indian population. There's absolutely a cultural component.
Deathspiral222@reddit
“Culture” isn’t a protected class for a reason.
It is completely reasonable to hire a team based on their culture. For example, culturally, Indian teams tend to be more proficient with English than, say, a randomly-selected Japanese team. It is not a problem to hire a team based on general characteristics like this.
apoleonastool@reddit
There's a straightforward question in OP's first sentence that you can't even answer.
CSAtWitsEnd@reddit
(Actually, if you have that opinion fix yourself)
Life_Rabbit_1438@reddit
Why would a competent person ever work for one of those firms. Which is why you see the same outcome every time.
50 developers earning $90k a year complete less work that a single $250k developer.
robhaswell@reddit
Every country has good and bad teams, but getting good results is much more about effective management of those teams more than anything else.
Electronic_Deal_1054@reddit
21 years in the IT, I'll keep my mouth shut about indian devs.
authentic_developer@reddit
The pattern you're describing is real but the cause is usually split. The offshore firm is optimising for contract extension - that part is true and well documented. The part that gets missed: if your onshore team spends more time writing requirements than they would have spent building the thing, the requirements process was broken before the vendor arrived. A bad spec is a bad spec regardless of who executes it.
The companies I've seen make it work had two things the others didn't. First, milestone-based contracts with clear acceptance criteria, not time-and-materials billing. Flat monthly billing is an invitation to drag things out. Second, a strong internal tech lead sitting in the overlap timezone window who owned the vendor relationship daily, not a PM forwarding emails. Without those two things the outcome is predictable regardless of whether the team is in Bangalore, Hyderabad, Warsaw, or Dallas.
IProgramSoftware@reddit
Half the Fortune 500 tech companies are run by Indians who have emigrated here. These are some of the smartest folks I have worked with. What an asinine thing to post.
anengineerandacat@reddit
Shit talent exists everywhere, they just have more of it.
I have a team of mostly of folks from India and they generally speaking do alright; the difference between the good ones and the bad ones is how they approach problems and seek out solutions.
Just interview them lightly, present a technical exam and gauge how they resolve it; if they immediately jump into coding and ask questions after they start, don't hire them, if they ask for clarity around requirements and refinement and then can code the solution out up until time (even if it's not completed) they might actually be pretty good.
Main reason I say this is because the SDLC functions off requirements, you implement after you know what your going to build and your offshore is primarily just to implement and monitor so your onshore focuses on the IP itself.
So find people that are good at translating requirements to code.
abluecolor@reddit
My last company wasted over a million, and this was a fairly small company (<200 employees, <50m revenue), over the course of two years, on an Indian firm building a mobile app for them.
They switched to a still-contract-but-US based firm that rewrote and delivered it in about 6 months.
hungry_dawoodi@reddit
Was the US based firm hiring US based engineers?
It’d be wild if they too offshored it but had a much better experience running software projects.
abluecolor@reddit
Yeah, Tekletics (I swear I have zero association with them), I liked their model. They staffed teams with a senior leading several juniors, super hungry and professional, just a great experience all around.
chunkypenguion1991@reddit
There's a lot more accountability when both companies are US based. Sure you can sue a company based in India or Brazil but good luck enforcing any judgements
arstarsta@reddit
If its big like TCS they would have a US branch and name to care about.
thekwoka@reddit
They probably change company names every contract.
juan_furia@reddit
No
farox@reddit
One time only, in 30 years in the business. But, it was a small team, doing tasks picked for them as part of a larger project and the lead was send there to manage them.
ZenaMeTepe@reddit
No. Never.
PhaseStreet9860@reddit
I currently work at a Global Capability Centre (GCC) in India. About five years ago, I worked for a service-based company. The main issue with such companies is the extremely low pay—they offer around $4,000 to $5,000 per year as CTC, which translates to roughly $300 per month in take-home salary after tax.
At the same time, they bill clients in the US around $200–$300 per day for the same employees and often add 30–40 people to a project even when it’s not necessary.
My point is that many people who are unable to secure jobs elsewhere end up joining these companies. With such low pay and minimal growth, it’s hard to stay motivated. On top of that, employees are expected to clock 8 hours a day even when there’s no real work, just to justify billing.
If you want the best delivery quality from Indian developers, service-based companies may not be the right choice.
03263@reddit
We had a many Indian contractors hired through a firm. The first one was really good. Then management hired several more and kept firing them and asking for new devs. Eventually they gave up because it was wasting too much of everyone's time trying to onboard this revolving door of contractors.
They went through 16 devs and found one good one. The first one. He became a permanent hire and no longer works through the firm.
With many of them, communication issues were significant. Some were very hard to understand speaking. They would tend to say they understood something even if they didn't, and worse say some work was done even if it wasn't. We were rolling out completely broken features and then trying to get them to fix it only to be met with confusion and finger pointing.
mburshteyn1@reddit
Yes, the contractors at big tech do fantastic work.
csueiras@reddit
God at apple they were mostly so bad.
I had to review one guy’s PR to the repo of one thing I owned and he was just adding a bunch of task.sleep all over the place. It was absolutely insane.
hungry_dawoodi@reddit
How did he get into Apple? 😓leet code? 😂
csueiras@reddit
Contractora dont really get much vetting afaik. I never had to work with contractors directly in my teams thank god.
NoCoolNameMatt@reddit
Which ones do you have experience with?
Hairless_Gash@reddit
You get what you pay for. That said your money goes further if you can deal with the downside. I managed a team from India, it seems the only guy I felt in sync with was the lead as he was put in the position to be responsible. Therefore for us it was a dead end, I forget how long I posted a year or 2 but with no ability to change things I just wanted out.
That said there was some benefit , just not what I'd expect it the team was local.
Often wonder if there every figured things out... I'm sure since companies can.
AdNecessary9427@reddit
I work for a telecom corp and unfortunately, I've heard this is a common practice. Features aren't fully delivered or key parts of the implementation are missing, yet the Jira ticket is already marked as 'Done.' Other teams have to verify it, only to find out that half the stuff doesn't even work.
That said, I wouldn't paint them all with the same brush. Many of them have knowledge and skills, it's just that you always hear the most about the fuckups and bad devs.
encryptedkraken@reddit
No but I’ve seen too many incompetent outsourced IAM engineers that only resolved simple issue by including an engineer from the west after countless meetings with large outsourced team counts and too many companies using poorly delivered apps and functioning apps because outsource devs are just ai and no skill. Not assuming all outsourced devs are bad but most are worth the pennie’s companies are trying to spend on them
alpen_kuh@reddit
It all depends on what your company is willing to pay.
If you want good quality in India you need to pay senior level salaries. But at that point it’s cheaper to outsource to Eastern European where the average dev quality and cultural alignment is better than in India.
ProfessorBamboozle@reddit
I oversaw an Indian team that helped port our ancient embedded Qt5 app to a browser web app.
They delivered on time and it was an improvement to what we had.
We were a smaller company though (~70 people) and they filled our lack of full stack developers adequately.
hungry_dawoodi@reddit
What were the key success factors of you don’t mind sharing?
PrydwenParkingOnly@reddit
For us there are four mayor succes factors.
The Indian team should be steady. Not upscaling and downscaling all the time. That wouldn’t work in a European team either. The people working for the larger firms (1000+) are not thrill seekers and prefer job security. Indian developers require a longer onboarding time in existing teams.
The steady team should have at least one lead per 5 people. The leads that we have are all working for our company for 8-15 years. Although the leads are not necessarily on the same projects as the people they lead, they still mentor, teach culture and review code on the side. Also they help with the selection process for new people. Many people won’t fit in our team due to the specialized requirements and culture.
Visit once a year. It’s important to show your face, eat, make jokes and play games together. Going there allows to learn from each other’s cultures and it shows respect which leads to motivation and confidence to speak up.
Have blended teams with on site and off shore capacity. Many Indian devs chose this career path because it pays well, not because they were born like techies. So they enjoy the repetitive work more than the European counterparts would. Together it’s a great combination. Our teams are usually never more than 6 devs. The Indian team mates are part of the team, including standups refinements retros and demos.
DisjointedHuntsville@reddit
Blame your procurement and finance teams. Not the people or the race or the “culture”.
Those “devs” are billed at poverty hourly wages for the industry and take home less than a tenth of what the company you’re outsourcing to bills you. If they’re lucky.
In a country of 1.5 Billion people, finance and procurement teams expect to get the lowest hourly billing and 100 person teams of consistent quality. There is very little evaluation of quality by the VERY FINANCE TEAMS THAT AUTHORIZE THIS BUSINESS MODEL.
This happens in Eastern Europe, South America, Africa, The Philippines and everywhere there are outsourced teams (have you worked with large teams in Bosnia? Hired Asian squads for your dev work? ) but of course, you see the market with 1.5 Billion people as the headline simply because of the mathematical majority.
For you to ragebait this crap every opportunity you get. . That’s a whole another level of resentment. The bottom line is The people spending money hiring software engineers in corporate America have no idea of quality when it comes to evaluating software engineering teams
asmkgb@reddit
I hate that part of the world from the bottom of my heart, because nothing good or of quality comes out of it, and because the greedy bastards stakeholders are leaning heavily on them.
Ysilla@reddit
I've seen it work many years back, but our (pretty large) company did things a bit differently: they sent an employee on site with them. As in the guy relocated to India and basically sat with the team for the entire duration of the project, and was the main contact point for us.
Overall cost was still really low, quality was very decent, especially since we chose the outsourced tasks well. I left that place long ago though, but heard they expanded the concept more later, a few more employees took on that role (with crazy $, since they not only keep their original salary while living in India, but also get some massive additional bonuses, including basically full covering of all living expenses)
neopointer@reddit
It doesn't matter where the IT firm is from.
In Germany, IT consultancy is very strong, in the sense that very often companies hire consultants.
But whenever I worked somewhere where consultants have worked before, almost all work they have done need to be thrown away. IT consultancy in Germany is where it concentrates the most incompetency per square meter I have ever seen.
So no, it's not about India IT firm, it's just that the business of IT consultancy doesn't care about quality at all.
sour-kiwi-dude@reddit
No.
astrorogan@reddit
I worked for a big tech company famous for laptops and shitty printers that had an enterprise side also (which was sold off a number of years ago). We also had an army of engineers spread across the globe and despite that they outsourced a piece of work to Infosys. It took a ton of time and money to built the tool.
When it came back it was so broken and disjointed that they handed to tool to myself and another engineer and we spent a month ripping it apart and fixing it properly. Some of the services we ended up building from scratch.
catmanjan2@reddit
HPE?
diaop@reddit
Here we go again. Racist redditors are at it again.
India is a poor country. Lots of people are lifted out of poverty by IT jobs.
iagovar@reddit
I'm working for IT outsourcing company where one of the business lines is to clean up after this people. We're based in Spain though.
casualPlayerThink@reddit
No. Under two decades, nope. But, as context, I have to state: every single time those companies were super cheap and meant for either cost optimization or being a scheme company in LA or London, UK to bring in the country the homies by fake claims. A decade ago I met projects in London, when a room of full of indian and bangladeshian folk hired europeans to fix their software under super short time (2 weeks, 400gbp/day) because they failed to deliver with 50-60 "engineer" under 6 months.
I have to state, this kind of company can be found anywhere, not just exclusively in india. Also, their schools doing the same half-baked half-scam type of teaching, to aim a certain company, level and directly teaching certification material to them, then helping them get temhe exams and certs, so thats why there are so many indian folks with ms/oracle/ibm/cisco and other high level certs, but cant' add 2+2.
During the year, I had the priviledge to meet nice people from india, pakistan, turkmenistan, zombabwe, columbia, mongolia, georga, mexico, japan, etc. Each of them were good expert of their field, no matter the origin country. I could write a book how many good and bad people I met....
jmking@reddit
I don't know why you're singling out Indian firms. It's the nature of consulting companies in general no matter where the hell they're based. Even with on-shore consulting companies with on-shore consultants (...and no, none of the on-shore consultants were on work visas just to shut that down in advance).
You identified all the problems - lack of context, lack of urgency or consequences, the consultants themselves getting only a fraction of what the consulting company is charging for them, high turnover, etc
thecrius@reddit
Nope.
Currently even having a google partner working alongside us for a high profile client which has 99% of the team being Indians.
It's a shitshow and all they do is try to dump work on us to cover their incompetency. They don't communicate with us, manage to give different answer to questions in the same meeting multiple times and each time differently. They don't even communicate among themselves.
Basically on top of my actual work I have to track all the bullshit they say so I can defend myself and the company I work for.
Really exhausting.
moduspol@reddit
Not from an IT firm, but I did work at a company where we had a great Indian manager who had lived in the US for a while, so he was 100% fluent in both cultures. He ran the office in India, which was 15-20 people, and it worked fairly well.
Even then, though, you still get the thing where only 2-3 of them are really good, and the rest are minimally competent. But we had our guy running the show so he had things under control. It was still tedious dealing with the time zone difference but otherwise couldn't complain.
oar335@reddit
to be fair, that describes most software engineering teams in US firms as well IMO.
jasie3k@reddit
No no, it's not like that, you see all American Devs are ✨ amazing ✨
CompetitiveProof3078@reddit
Can be good if they're well paid, trouble is the jobs are moved there to seek cost savings and so the entire point is that they're not well paid.
ILikeToHaveCookies@reddit
Adding on to this, the Indian culture is very different to the European one/American one.
The skills you need to manage an EU team do not translate to managing a Indian team/team member.
fued@reddit
nope, it will take 3x as long, they wont meet the requirements and they will nickle and dime you on any changes.
happens every single time
eskh@reddit
Going against the pinned post, but I do believe this needs its own thread:
Their insane work culture (they are online with PRs from 3 hours ago when I wake up in the EU, and are online when the US finishes their lunch) definitely relates to bad results, and I am ready to die on this hill.
You can not ship a good product while working 14+ hours a day long term, period.
Mindless-Pilot-Chef@reddit
The good developers in India are not working at these IT firms. They are building their own startup, or working for other startups. IT firms hire 1000s of people and focus on getting things delivered. There are millions of people, there is no generalisation here. There are good devs and there are bad devs everywhere
Timely_Cockroach_668@reddit
lol, only 3 YOE and already have seen this play out once. Executives are borderline retarded, but it’s self inflicted retardation. They NEED this to be inefficient so that they can justify managing the projects.
PuzzleheadedGuess435@reddit
Blud how did ur comment not get deleted for that ? Mine gets nuked immediately.
Timely_Cockroach_668@reddit
Lmao I have no clue. Didn’t realize it’s against the rules.
PuzzleheadedGuess435@reddit
Yea executive are borderline retarded. Test.
thashepherd@reddit
You won't understand how things work until you realize how they aren't
Striking-Priority635@reddit
i had something like this at my old job too
throwaway09234023322@reddit
No. I've never had them build anything that was not the most half baked fucked up mess that didn't actually meet the requirements. However, they will go on and on in meetings using buzzwords to pretend like the work is the most cutting edge shit you have ever heard of.
thekwoka@reddit
It'll be cutting edge and using jQuery 1.0
zaibuf@reddit
Hey. I saw one app using react as well, but then they installed jQuery and used that within react.
Curious_Owl197@reddit
This is the best for loop yall have ever seen, maybe ever
eatmeat@reddit (OP)
The buzzword to output ratio is genuinely one of the most impressive things I’ve ever witnessed… regression testing the smoke suite to fix a broken link while the homepage hasn’t actually worked in four months
Independent-Fun815@reddit
Have u ever thought maybe it does make sense and that I'm just wrong? Like honestly, how arrogant can you be that a contract gets signed so freely?
If the contract relationship lasts multiple renewals then it signals that both parties are getting something out of it. It doesn't mean they get equal. It's the rare deal that both parties benefit on the same magnitude. Maybe the Indian contractor is bought in as a compliance matter. To do some project that the company doesn't care about and only needs to exist for legal reasons.
thekwoka@reddit
You're assuming management is smart enough to see this.
hungry_dawoodi@reddit
Contractors are brought in for 2 reasons usually:
Low cost to ramp up Low cost to ramp down
The mismatch comes when developers failed to live up to the promise of the salesmen 😂 oldest tale in the book.
GameOfTroglodytes@reddit
Never met an executive I see.
sureyouknowurself@reddit
Never.
motocrossstar@reddit
You have to understand that the business model of these IT giants is to make as much money as possible and they’re optimizing for that. Quality of deliverables doesn’t matter as much. In fact poor quality is helpful in extending contracts. Also in order to make more money they hire talent at the lowest possible cost. Combine this with the fact that good engineers can make much more money in other companies, you get a workforce in these giants that’s utterly incompetent for the job. The execs hide it behind the usual BS of buzzwords and all. TL;DR it’s all by design. And I also hold the opinion the entity doing the outsourcing also knows this to some extent but are ok with it. Cause they also would rather not have IT as their highest cost center than have good quality software.
eatmeat@reddit (OP)
It really does seem to be designed to be poor quality sometimes - because if it takes 15 tries to get it right, you pay for the work 15 times. And you pay for 15 rounds of QA and testing!
chunkypenguion1991@reddit
They do just enough to satisfy the literal language of the contract and not an ounce of effort more. You want anything changed in even the slightest way that's a change request and you pay them more. To be fair this is business model of any outsourcing company regardless of location.
thekwoka@reddit
I'd argue even that isn't done. Most of my experiences it's like "give 3 check boxes that need checked" one is checked, the other has a circle around it, and the last is untouched.
chunkypenguion1991@reddit
This is true but at first they do ship better deliverables. Once it's far enough into the contract that the sunk cost to replace them goes up the quality goes down in equal parts
thekwoka@reddit
well, yeah, when it's "they checked that first box really well"...then I guess...
gibbocool@reddit
The other thing to understand is that talented developers will quickly get promoted and make enough to afford to move overseas where they can earn 10x more.
iamabadliar_@reddit
I'm Indian. Most of the consulting companies here pay $10k-20k per year for a mid level engineer. Startups and product based companies can easily pay $50k. Maang and other top tier companies pay >$100k. Any competent dev will find a better job quickly.
IndividualShape2468@reddit
TCS?
Ok_Influence8600@reddit
If you’re asking whether this is common in offshore development, I don’t think it is.
I’ve outsourced app development to a company in Vietnam before, and all the staff there worked with great enthusiasm.
In fact, they were so dedicated and talented that our design team was even warned we were relying on them too much.
We set them a rather tight schedule, but they still did their utmost to meet the deadlines.
hungry_dawoodi@reddit
Why are you being downvoted? Hahha you provided an adjacent point and that’s it. Nothing defamatory or rude 🙈
Ok_Influence8600@reddit
> Why are you being downvoted? Hahha you provided an adjacent point and that’s it. Nothing defamatory or rude 🙈
I’ve done it again...
I really need to take my English studies more seriously.
Translation tools aren’t always reliable either...
>How was your experience with communication? What worked well and didn’t?
Yes, there are some things that are going well.
We primarily communicate in three ways.
The first is text-based communication using Slack, with hundreds of exchanges per day.
We constantly exchange messages like, "What's the progress on the work?", "Were there any problems?", and "I need this done, is that okay?".
We especially check the work progress daily to clarify what they're doing, and we point out any problems if there are any.
The second is online meetings using Google Meet.
We often use it when things can't be conveyed well through Slack or when it's better to talk directly.
Mainly, the Vietnamese BrSE participates in our meetings to understand the meeting content. Then, the BrSE translates it to the implementation team.
Ideally, we would also understand Vietnamese, but so far, we haven't had any issues with the Vietnamese BrSE's translation, so we've concluded that we don't need to understand Vietnamese ourselves.
The third is document-based communication. Essentially, this is communication through requirements specifications, design specifications, and QA sheets.
Communication using QA sheets is particularly active, with 100 to 200 QA questions generated for each requested project.
While it might seem like too many, they provide feedback on feasibility and suggest alternative designs, making it an essential part of the project.
Our success stems from our daily efforts to communicate in various ways, minimizing misunderstandings and ensuring timely progress updates.
Also, a major factor is that we save Slack conversations so we can hold the Vietnamese team accountable if they provide false reports.
Furthermore, when the Vietnamese team is working—for example, when they're modifying the STG environment server—we check their work logs to ensure they're working correctly, so any slacking is immediately detected.
The two areas where things aren't going well are:
We lack the skills to fully understand Vietnamese.
There have been times when what we communicated between the Vietnamese team and us was completely misinterpreted. Despite exchanging messages on Slack over 50 times and even creating a Q&A sheet, this still hasn't worked.
Regarding this, during the ITb period, the Japanese side will handle it so that any misunderstandings can be recovered.
We haven't shared information with the Vietnamese side about the extent of their human resources and how much work they can be assigned.
As a result, the Vietnamese side sometimes has too much free time, or conversely, too much work, and we haven't been able to properly distribute the workload.
This is a serious problem and hasn't been resolved yet.
Their labor contract is also hourly, you see.
We want the Vietnamese side to be as productive as possible, but it's difficult to assign them the right amount of work.
Once, we left the Vietnamese side idle for about a week without assigning them any tasks.
This might be slightly different from communication, but from my perspective, the reason we're doing well with the Vietnamese side is that our executives regularly visit Vietnam to review contracts and communicate with them.
Conversely, there are also cases where the Vietnamese side works at our workplace.
That's how we try to build trust by treating our contractors like our own employees.
JimDabell@reddit
I’ve known plenty of smart and capable Indians, but none of them were part of an outsourced team. I think every project I’ve seen in the last 25 years that has been outsourced to India has fallen somewhere between grossly incompetent and outright fraud. The only person I know that I’ve ever heard say positive things about a project that was outsourced to India was being actively defrauded and just hadn’t realised it yet.
You have to bear in mind the selection bias though – good developers don’t work for sweatshops, so all the people trying to save ridiculous amounts of money by offshoring to India are generally going to get the worst of the worst.
Having said that, the developer market in India does have serious problems:
— 95% engineers in India unfit for software development jobs: study
When considering outsourcing to India, ask yourself: are you going to discover and pay for the top 5% of developers in India in order to get people who can actually code?
rrrx3@reddit
25 years in the game and I’ve yet to see it happen. But I generally blame executive dysfunction for team failure, more than anything. Doesn’t matter if they’re outsourced or not.
th3_pund1t@reddit
Outsourcing always works. Just not in the way you think it does.
You think you should get high-quality software, support, ownership, etc. Your VP thinks that they need to shave costs until they move to their next job and rinse/repeat. It works exactly as your VP wants.
eronth@reddit
I've literally never seen this setup, despite seeing plenty of terrible contract teams/setups.
JuniorAd1610@reddit
I see this sentiment a lot on Reddit and it seems to go into pretty unpleasant directions. A thing you need to understand is that WITCH companies pay their employees very poorly and thus attract the least developed talent. The average new grad joining these orgs gets $4000-$8000 a year!!. These companies are experts in over billing their customers.
Good Indian devs mostly tend to work the Indian offices of US firms or some Indian startups or move abroad with upto 10x more pay at the same level.
Curious_Owl197@reddit
The entire point of outsourcing is to lower costs isn't it? Pay peanuts get monkeys
MishkaZ@reddit
I've seen both. Like everyone else is saying, you get what you pay. One job, yes, the indian outsourced engineers were bottom of the barrel and a revolving door company. I swear we only hired them for like 3 engineers that were good. Another job, we had a contracting firm that worked on FE, lead by an inhouse dev. The team costed a pretty penny and was worth it. Very easy to work with, very good. Current company has outsourced engineers all over the globe (not just developing countries), so the bar is a lot higher. I have a QA team member from India who rips. Not only does he do a good job finding those bugs and edge cases, but he's really active during architecture drafting phase. Has flagged risks that I wasn't even aware of.
CrushgrooveSC@reddit
No. Having had to repeat this mistake more than once to learn the lesson, let me say again: no.
Individual-Praline20@reddit
Nope. Never. Since the beginning of it. The best ones just move out elsewhere. Don’t try, it will be worse afterward, 100% of the time.
Acceptable_Durian868@reddit
I've been in software for 25 years now, and not once have I seen an outsourced product go well in the medium to long term.
brainhack3r@reddit
A buddy of mine was Indian and built out an internal Indian outsourcing team at a large data provider.
They would build custom data processing for lots of other medium to large corporations and they were pretty damn good
I was brought in to handle something complicated and they did a pretty solid job.
The thing though is that they were paid like a 1/7th of what I was and honestly they all deserved better.
They spoke English really well too.
One guy was educated in the US.
old-new-programmer@reddit
On time, yes, quality? No. But it seems like this is just the norm now with AI code being pushed into everything.
IrrationalSwan@reddit
I've had some good experiences with developers based in India and hired as full time employees of the company I worked for. I've never seen outsourcing a project to an india-based consultancy work well.
OgFinish@reddit
I’ve worked at major household name companies and every single one has failed the India experiment in this exact way. Eventually they do a massive drawback and settle with 1-2 dev/qa per team and that seems to work.
No_Interaction_5206@reddit
I don’t know that it’s a problem with Indian devs so much as it’s a problem with outsourcing. Often only part of a project is outsourced there is no ownership and they no they will be cut loose when it’s complete. Company doesn’t want to pay someone to really understand the software and requirements just check some boxes.
im-ba@reddit
It's always mismanagement, IMO.
I work for a Fortune 50 company, and we have a rather huge presence in India. Tons and tons of outsourcing going on here. Over the years, I've worked with and gotten to know personally (as in, I was invited to weddings, etc.) Indian developers who work for my company.
What I found was that, just like anybody in my country (the US), if you aren't clear on expectations, deliverables, etc. then you're going to run into this problem. Deadlines can slip, costs can explode or balloon, and desynchronization can occur if you just throw work at them and don't check in with an appropriate cadence.
Personally, I would prefer to outsource to the same time zone as my company (+/- a couple of hours, max) to other countries so that it's easier to meet virtually for longer sessions.
What I did with my team members in India was I planned for one early morning (my time) and one late evening call (again, my time) per week so that they would also have a similar (i.e. late in their day, then early in their day) meeting cadence. This helped them to keep on track, and over time I started getting to know them personally and learning more about how to work with and manage them.
I see too often that the outsourced labor isn't respected. If they aren't set up for success for whatever tasks they're assigned, then of course they're going to flounder. I've seen it happen with US based teams too. But people are quick to blame them for their failures when it's really that there simply wasn't enough communication with them to get the job done.
Personally, I'm against outsourced labor in general and I think that they should tax the ever living shit out of it. It's making it really difficult for people in their respective countries to find good opportunities and corporations are using it to exploit inexpensive labor and skirt labor laws. But all of that's above my pay grade and I just work here so it's whatever. I'll work with them and it just is what it is. It's easier working with people in the same time zone as me and I think countries waste a lot of money trying to save money through outsourcing.
MedicalScore3474@reddit
Yes. One of the WITCH companies delivered something on-time at one of my old positions.
It got rebuilt anyway. Not because it didn't work (it did work well), but because they were billing a huge fraction of a million dollars just for the ability to keep using it, and another fraction to maintain it. It was cheaper to hire multiple engineers than to keep paying them.
enterprise_code_dev@reddit
What you described is exactly how it goes, I see folks calling out well there are some good and bad devs, that’s not what you care about nor what you are paying for as a business and what the OP is asking about, you are paying for staff augmentation or a project you need done, you are paying a price for that, it’s not your concern if one or two is good, either they deliver on time, quality code or they don’t, as a team, just like your team derives their value. Don’t worry about the fact you can’t charge them back because even if you could, and I did, all it led to was getting rid of every contract and getting nowhere because your company can’t afford in-house developers and if they realize they can’t scam you they won’t bid the contract. This is their second scam industry, with the phone fraud being the primary one.
Nofanta@reddit
Never. Always late and always needs to be almost totally scrapped.
steveoc64@reddit
No.
Generalisations aside .. (there are always outliers), but I’ve never worked with such a lazy and self aggrandising bunch of incompetent brown nosers, sycophants, credit takers, and responsibility deflectors.
They have made an absolute art form out of taking DGAF about project quality to a new height.
Your entire existence is merely there to cover for them, serve them, speak on their behalf, and generally make their entire life as slack and easy as is humanly possible.
catfrogbigdog@reddit
I think the correct heuristic is *cheap* software consulting teams make unmaintainable software.
I’ve worked for a few startups with non technical founders that outsourced v1 and it fell apart after scaling to dozens of users.
They’ve been Indian, Pakistani, Russian, LatAm, you name it, but the one thing they all had in common? They’ve got paid 1/10 the market rate. You get what you pay for.
cyberlordsumit@reddit
I'd rather hire Indian techies directly by vetoeing and paying them good , rather than expecting they'll be the best with 1/10th the salary as an offshore service person.
Material_Policy6327@reddit
No. I worked with one team who has a job to add a print from pdf feature. They shipped it to us. QA then was like “wait this is weird” then they printed out the pdf and held it up to the monitor. What they has built instead was something that would take a print screen of the users monitor. So when you printed the pdf out it showed the whole UI, only the page you were on and was the same size as the window in the monitor. It was both amazing to see but also wtf lol
eatmeat@reddit (OP)
But did your requirements explicitly state NOT to do it that way!?
domo__knows@reddit
My company does contractors extremely well and as I start my own company, I take their example as a way to hire them.
In the end, someone at the company needs to own delivery. No contractors will ever care about the product as much as someone who has equity or salary tied to delivery. I notice that the standards of our contractors pretty much mirror the quality of the people who manage them.
VizualAbstract4@reddit
I will assume you get what you pay for, no matter where you hire from.
And I think the common reason for horror stories are because people are going to India for talent to get the most bang for their buck.
chipstastegood@reddit
You have to oversee their work. And build in warranty for work delivered. As well as clear requirements and deliverable definitions. If you do all that then you will eventually get a good quality deliverable. It’s just that the work shifts from doing the work to overseeing and managing delivery. Large companies usually have dedicated project and program managers that dedicate a good amount of their time to this. If you’re expecting to just outsource without managing them, you’ll have a bad time
SeparateBag7445@reddit
Nope!
kcbh711@reddit
you literally get what you pay for. that simple. India has some rockstar developers. but they aren't building your custom software for pennies an hour.
BilldaCat10@reddit
The Indian rock star developers are in the US.
hungry_dawoodi@reddit
Or in India building their own business / freelancing.
Most definitely not working for sweatshops 🥲
ShakesTheClown23@reddit
Wait til you hear about Lockheed Martin
Recent_Science4709@reddit
No
BroughtMyBrownPants@reddit
Depends. Ive worked with some stellar Indian personnel who made the CEO of my company look like an imbecile and I've worked with some who I swore my 13 year old nephew could out work.
It's always subjective, based on company, culture, etc. Theres awesome developers everywhere but a lot of them just don't want to put up with the bullshit and just do what they're told, which is often some plan initiated by some ladder climbing moron.
SlinkyAvenger@reddit
Problem is a common one with bargain-bin outsourcing firms - the devs who are good soon leave for greener pastures leaving the incompetent ones.
dpsbrutoaki@reddit
I work with amazon and azure engineers at the same time and even they fail to be competent a lot of the times, so… I have yet to find a place where people set enforced, high engineering standards.
unconceivables@reddit
You happened to pick two of the worst examples, Azure engineers in particular, but Amazon has also had extremely low hiring standards for a while. Unfortunately, quality has dropped across the board almost everywhere over the years.
dpsbrutoaki@reddit
Ps.: that is just to say that if we are to enforce this kind of expectations from a consulting company, I’m not sure where you’re gonna find it. Indian or not.
io-x@reddit
This is the model.
forbiddenknowledg3@reddit
Not once have I seen contractors help us. Either they delay the project, or they ship on time but it's not what was asked (I guess these are the same things).
That said, management is usually happy so maybe I'm not seeing something. Like maybe they expected it to be even worse.
Guilty_Serve@reddit
No. It doesn't work because of fraud, nepotism, and the caste system. Every Indian venture I've ever been near bloats out into a corrupt bureaucracy. Generally the setup is simple:
Charismatic front guy for an agency or a consultancy firm promises the world to non technical leadership. Bit by bit more Indians are introduced into leadership. Those Indians then go onto exploit the ever loving shit out of their own. Had a conversation with one of these guys about Canada and he had total disgust for Canada because of how many lower caste Indians Canada has let in. He then went on to abuse the Indians we integrated as team members and treated no different than us- which works ok. Indian bureaucrats are usually In Canada I've been hired to clean up the mess of crap they've done here. I've seen a lot of fraud with them in web agencies that were fronts for immigration schemes, and all sorts of shit.
Outsourcing works to different places to a degree. It's just more expensive the better you get.
Southern_Orange3744@reddit
Would rather vibe code itself at this point
Pepston@reddit
Nope, they suck. Always.
ImNateDogg@reddit
I work on small dev teams, and context around the project and business is 100x more valuable and important in terms of building something.
Anyone you bring in that doesn't understand the business will lead to project delays and extra costs
eatmeat@reddit (OP)
This team has given me a new appreciation for what context even means. I spend hours a day explaining things that I had never considered could be interpreted more than one way!
UXyes@reddit
I’ve been doing this twenty years. I literally watched a big outsourced project failure get sunset TODAY. This was the 4th one I’ve seen/been forced to work on. I have never seen it work. Time displacement, cultural differences, language barriers, etc. It doesn’t work, or if it does I’ve never seen it.
realdevtest@reddit
Probably about 5% are reasonably competent and 1-% are actually good
Minimum-Reward3264@reddit
How is it in their business interest to deliver on time? Drag the time. When it’s done, the paycheck stops.
ventur3@reddit
No lol
sleepyguy007@reddit
not yet and i hope it doesnt change. i've gotten paid several times to rewrite a pile of trash into a decent backend or app and i've got 15 years of working left in me.
TurnUp0rTransfer@reddit
My previous company outsourced our QA testing to one of those firms and some of them lied about actually testing the tickets that were assigned to them. No communication if it was because they don’t understand the feature, just wanted to collect a paycheck I guess. That said, I still did work along with some of them who knew what they were doing but they didn’t last long in those roles as they found a better paying job and left their contracting firm.
So yeah, we got what we paid for by trying to outsource our QA to the lowest bidder
bombaytrader@reddit
Bro, they hire bottom of the barrel engineers and exploit them.
bloomsday289@reddit
There are tons of skilled Indian devs. However, they don't work for peanuts. In a field where work can be fully asynchronous and remote, if someone is working for peanuts there's probably a reason for it.
Bricktop72@reddit
The last time they never even delivered some functionality that took an email report and stuck it into a database table. We gave them 3 examples on how we did it previously, marked the code with comments on where the changes went, and had a full day handover session. Six months later they gave up. Someone else had the code dumped on him and he did the work in about 1/2 day using AI.
swizzcheeseyii@reddit
No. I’ve personally seen an 8-month project with 10 externals have to be completely rewritten in 2 months by a senior and a junior (I was the junior). And since that time I’ve literally only worked with 2 really competent engineers out of several dozen. For most external contractors their incentives and goals are simply misaligned with the contract/project and even if it’s a really bad fit in skillsets or timelines they will never admit it.
actionerror@reddit
You get what you pay for
AcceptableSimulacrum@reddit
Mostly no, sort of. I'd comment that I've worked closely with a bunch of people from those consultancies and some of the people are great, but generally those aren't the people who have the type of influence to avoid what you're describing.
TheOwlHypothesis@reddit
Only stories I have ever encountered have been the opposite
roynoise@reddit
My org, rather than let me build the damn thing myself, outsourced one of our major customer facing apps. Cost us a LOT of money, cost me a LOT of frustration and sleep (working IST), and in the end they shipped a dumpster fire mess of a white labeled product they "built" 20 years ago and had never updated.
Oh and the best part - when they finally realized they got screwed, they hired ANOTHER offshore team to make a new version.
I'm still pissed about all that, and constantly looking for a new job.
Seriously if anyone is hiring a reliable, good hang mid-senior dev, feel free to DM. Let's connect on LinkedIn.
Optimus_Primeme@reddit
$200 in Claude credits will do better work than $1mil spent on an Indian IT contract.
csueiras@reddit
I would quit any job that required me to work with those shittie firms
idunnouser@reddit
The higher ups in our company had us outsource something because they wanted it done then and there and didn’t want to give us the time to work on it. After weeks of failed meetings telling them what they’re doing does not work for us they manage to go behind our backs and tell the company they’ve finished the work and it works and we’re the ones that are causing issues.
Took their work and turns out, none of it works. Finally was heard and they pulled the plug. I spent a few days head down and finished the project. Companies paid contractors 9.5k and literally could’ve given me a week and left it with my salary.
Horror-Primary7739@reddit
We outsourced a back fill. It hasn't been a good experience. Being in an opposite time zone from the rest of the team we have very little time for a handover. If he was a solid engineer it wouldn't be so bad, but he is a coder at best. And no one has time to shepherd his code through the pipeline. Anything he is assigned keeps dragging everything behind because any change or revisions is a 24 hour delay. So either we fix his code or we wait a day for him to fix it.
The cost saving is only on paper.
scalablecory@reddit
You get what you pay for. Have seen quality code plenty of times. Also seen some shit.
Old-School8916@reddit
hell naw, this is basically the universal experience with the big indian IT outsourcing firms (infosys, TCS, wipro, etc).
I think this is why A LOT of companies have moved onto insourcing their offshoring via the GCC model (global captive center aka global capability center). that way there is less misaligned incentives.
Nearby-Middle-8991@reddit
Even then, in my experience. Put 3 PowerPoint management layers with zero technical skills on top of the lowest bidder. Everything is easy on PowerPoint, timelines get compressed, zero QA, "ship before deadline". Contractors will tick the boxes by hand if they have to and done. Nobody says no, timelines kept, everyone is happy. Once it breaks, blame something else or call modernization and carry on
Background-Golf4397@reddit
Never from a big one, small ones yea.
NegativeSemicolon@reddit
No
jcl274@reddit
in my dreams, once
No-Direction-9338@reddit
No