A320 - Struggling with line training - when to call it quits?
Posted by aeryn2244@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 112 comments
Flight training has been challenging from the get go, not the theoretical content, not the flows. My struggle has been the manual handling. I had to repeat flights when flying single engine, and multi-engine was challenging (fewer flights repeated, but had issues with flare/landing technique, couldn't handle adverse weather very well, and poor rudder authority on assymetric flights).
Long story short, I made it to the airlines and base training didn't go quite as well as I had hoped. Flat landings and inconsistent flare technique. I got another go but the winds were picking up, and my manual handling wasn't good (couldn't stabilise on final approach, therefore didn't have a good stabilised platform coming up to that 50 ft). This wasn't marked a fail and I was allowed to have another sim session, then another go. Managed to get a great day out, basically nil winds and I passed eventually.
This first set of failures, I took it hard, I cried in front of the instructor (not a good look, but in my mind the base training was supposed to be the day all my training consolidated and I could start a new chapter of training on the line, and I bungled it). I was so confident I thought I had it in the bag, I figured having passed the sim, I was ready to go. But the technique just wasn't up to par, and my confidence was completely shot. I started to think of the financial hole I had dug for myself, and what possible career I could have afterwards. Eventually passing didn't feel as good as I thought it would, perhaps because I had put so many expectations on the first day.
Anyway, I got out on the line. First week started off great, demonstrated the flows well and learned more things I wasn't exposed to in the sims. Instructors have remarked I am well ahead of where I need to be in terms of knowledge, admin, descent management, comms etc. But my handling is still poor. In that first week I got the dreaded 'priority left' on two occasions. On one of them, after the '20' call out the plane just continue to float with no indication of touching down. On the second one my pitch rate was too fast and I got the 'pitch' call.
Second week of line training, control was taken on two occasions yet again. I got the pitch callout, and I got destabilised and ended up floating and left of centerline for the other. It wasn't a great start to the week, and with wind gusts of 25-35 kts, I didn't get to do many other landings in the week, instructors didn't want to have to take control because I don't do well with weather, so they didn't want my confidence to get shot even further. On the last day, wind calm, I got two landings. The first was okay, correct flare height, good pitch rate. Manual brakes all the way so struggled just a bit with mantaining the centerline and braking at the same time, but it was adequate (could have been better). The second landing I felt I flared to high and eased off the back pressure. Turns out I flared at the right time, and needed a bit more back pressure. More sim time is being recommended.
I am really at a low point. I can't say I have tried my hand at many things in life, but for those that I have, I have either excelled, or met the standards. But with flying I can't seem to hack it. What good is it to apply all the right techniques and knowledge and get into the air only to not be able to safely land? I have read the FCTM over and over again, I've watched countless videos to see how others approach the flare. I study, I put the work in. But the manual flying is a mountain I am starting to believe I can't climb. I've had over 200 sim hours, and coming up on almost 50 hours in the aircraft (granted I have only had about 8 landings but still); this is more than enough experience to be able to get things right. And I just don't seem to be getting it.
Has anyone had issues of this magnitude, or know of those who have? And when would be a good time to call it quits? I can genuinely say I have tried my very best, it just isn't enough, and maybe I am not coachable.
And how do I move forward? I don't like wearing the uniform anymore, I feel it isn't earned and I am not at the level I should be to wear it. And I worry about future prospects as I have no savings, and nothing else to fall back on. I'm basically scr*wed. I doubt I will be given more chances to show I can manually fly and land, which means I am just counting down the days until I am let go. And when I am, I have nothing else to fall back on (I've an MPL so I can't look for opportunities elsewhere).
Anyway, this is where I am at. All tips/advice are welcome.
DisastrousTravel1183@reddit
My landings completely changed once i forcibly reminded myself to look to the end of runway at the 50 call, it really changes everything
ducky2000@reddit
Best advice is to flare it so that the mains hover about an inch or so off the ground. Then just slowly easy off the stick and let it settle. I jest, but really, just do that.
As far as actual constructive advice, at about 75', glance down at the PFD, specifically the airspeed and trend, and then look at the engines and the autothrust trend, then look back at the end of the runwawy. You can sort of get a feel for how the autothrust is going to fuck you over in the flare (it frequently does especially when it's gusty). If the speed is trending slow, get ready for a sinker and for the AT to add a ton of power in the flare causing you to float. If you are little on the fast side, the AT will start reducing power early and you can start developing a pretty good sink rate as the speed corrects back down. Once you learn to anticipate how the AT is trying to hose you, you can adjust your flare and power reduction timing accordingly.
c402c@reddit
Welcome to your first 200 hours of flying jets. Stick at it - it’s a learning experience. Stay humble and accept all the help you are offered, a good attitude carries a lot of weight.
TristanwithaT@reddit
I would teach all my students this and even after 1000+ hours of dual given… I still have to consciously tell myself on short final to look down at the end of the runway when I’m flying. It makes such a world of difference.
StageMajestic613@reddit
During the round out? I can’t see the end when flairing.
bamaham93@reddit
Until the nose covers that point on the horizon. If it does in your aircraft (usually tail wheels in a three point attitude) you still stare “through” the nose at that point while watching the Lindbergh reference; the visible runway out the side windows.
Captain_Billy@reddit
In an A320 you can see the full complete runway EVEN if you are way too high on pitch. This isn’t a single engine prop
Given__To__Fly@reddit
You're not actually looking for the end of the runway. You're looking down the runway focusing on the horizon. It'll force your peripheral vision to see the horizon coming up and you'll gain the spatial orientation of the ground coming up.
gnowbot@reddit
Awesome point.
When instructing, every time I talked a student into staring at the horizon or end of runaway, they would sense the attitude of the airplane and…drastically improve, usually nailing it.
Some of the most important moments in my learning was when the panel was covered up, and I learned to look at the horizon and the prop spinner. I could go on too much.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
I’ll just drop this here, but OP account has been banned.
dashdriver@reddit
Agree with this. It took almost 200 hours exactly until landing the bus just clicked. I still remember the exact landing where everything fell into place. I was thinking about it today actually while updating my logbook.
Keep at it OP.
Darrell456@reddit
This. At 50 ft call transition your sight from the aiming point to looking down the runway. It’s just an entirely different sight picture. And get that quitting nonsense out your mind. It’s inhibiting you. You got this.
girl_incognito@reddit
This advice... look allllll the way down that thang!
x4457@reddit
Since you’re an MPL with 50 hours in type I’m guessing you’re right around the 200-250 hour total time range?
Yeah dude, you’re new. Hang in there. This is normal for anyone with your experience level.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
This kind of post makes me wary of how Europe makes airline pilots. In the US and Canada, you can work your way up to a 160,000 jet after you’ve already flown 1000 hours. 200-300 hours total is essentially nothing.
Oxygen_Converter@reddit
We do it everyday in the US. Military threw me in a big jet with 180ish hours then said land it on a 3,000' runway after a few months of sims. My experience on the civilian side is the instructor quality is simply lower.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
180 hours in the military is the equivalent of 600 hours in the civilian world. You’re training in an 1100-horsepower turboprop.
Historical-Pin1069@reddit
Now Asia as well.
x4457@reddit
Europe has a comparable or better safety record than North America despite the drastically lower pilot experience levels for two reasons:
1) Their training programs and pipelines are much more intensive, selective, and focused on the airline world. These students start day zero knowing that they’re going to be flying one specific type for one specific airline, and are often trained by that airline to fly that airline’s way and SOP from day zero too. There’s a fascinating discussion to be had there about inability for these students and future aviators to properly adapt to abnormal circumstances or deviations from the routine, but that’s a different topic to your question.
2) The airline and air traffic environment in Europe as a whole is so incredibly rigid that it almost rewards expectation bias. This is reflected in average arrival rates, prevalence of holding, slot times/structure, etc. but the subliminal result is that if you cannot fit that round peg flight into the round peg hole, the flight just doesn’t go. They cancel or delay or whatever until the peg matches the hole., then they go. There’s zero creativity, zero drive to change the flight plan or profile unless absolutely necessary, and nearly zero adaptation from air traffic control unless again absolutely necessary. Efficiency takes a massive hit, but safety is drastically increased because you remove a ton of variables from the equation.
In other words - low time airline pilots in Europe are taught a “paint-by-numbers” style of flying instead of being taught to actually think and aviate, but it works very well in that environment because of how incredibly inflexible it is and because everybody else in the operation has the same mindset.
You should see how some of the European pilots talk about what it’s like flying in the US on the more euro-centric forums. Jokes about demanding hazard pay to cross the Atlantic are only half kidding.
And to be clear with all of this, it’s not better or worse than anything we do in North America - just substantially different. I used to be super judgmental about the low time EASA pilots being basically afraid of anything that doesn’t involve an autopilot and autothrottles to a 10,000 foot runway, but when you understand where that mentality comes from and how it fits into their operating environment, it makes way more sense. Your average western Alaska bush pilot wouldn’t survive in Europe the same way your average 300 hour A320 junior FO in Europe wouldn’t survive in Alaska. Just different.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
That sums up the differences quite well.
In the USA, flying a circling or a visual at night, in extremely busy airspace, with controllers having 4 days off a month, provides for excellent efficiency. But it comes at a cost of a midair or a runway collision here and there.
In Europe, it's not uncommon to have to sit for an hour extra on the ground, because you have a slot due to ATC staffing issues somewhere enroute, but at least you know the ATC sector won't be completely overloaded, and controllers are getting more than 1 day off a week.
Tachanka-Mayne@reddit
Funny, just yesterday I was having a conversation with someone on the other flying sub about how, according to them, most US Operators have now banned circling approaches. Meanwhile the likes of Ryanair are still operating to a long list of airports where circling is often the only option.
I have to say, I found it very hard to believe ‘most US operators’ have ‘banned’ circling approaches. They are still relatively prevalent around Europe.
LastSprinkles@reddit
Bizarre comment based seemingly on nothing but preconceptions and stereotypes. I know plenty of airline captains here in Europe with many continuing to instruct at a local flying club while working their day job at an airline. To think that people here know nothing about flying but the autopilot/autothrottle is just funny.
Detector150@reddit
Don’t worry about how we make pilots. Looking at all incidents and accidents in the USA, apparently your way of making pilots is not superior looking at the number of pilots who never should have been piloting a jet. I don’t even mean it sarcastic or condescending.
slingermcgee@reddit
How many US pilots have stalled an aircraft from cruise altitude all the way to the ground while pulling back on the stick…..I’ll wait.
Detector150@reddit
Cherry picking. But Colgan Air comes to mind. The discussion for me is about the differences in the system between USA and Europe since someone was worried. All I said was that there needs to be no worry, the American system isn’t any better. You disagree with that?
x4457@reddit
Colgan was failure to recognize a tail stall from an extremely fatigued and sick crew in an airplane that is notorious for poor handling in ice.
A different kind of condemnation of the circumstances and different kind of failure of airmanship. That crew should have never left the ground whereas the AF447 guys should have never been flying that plane with their proficiency level. Different lessons to be learned.
Detector150@reddit
Ah, I see. You’re right. My statement is invalid. The USA system is better than the European one. /s
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
To be fair, the industry changed a lot of things as a result of AF447, Colgan and the Turkish 737.
Stall recovery is taught completely differently, simulators are required to have a more expanded envelope, we have much better procedures for unreliable airspeed (which is how AF447 started), etc.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Having the shear volume in the US compared to Europe does skew the curve a bit.
Detector150@reddit
Yeah it’s not really an exact science is it. This whole discussion with the dumb downvotes, I don’t care about downvotes but it seems like some Americans are upset that I pointed out that the American system isn’t any better than the European system. I got to fly passengers jets with less than 300 hours total and for the life of me cannot see how me having had to fly 2000 hours on some single or multi prop would have made me any better or safer. It’s almost as you guys are saying „look, you’re not a very good pilot yet, why don’t you first sit in small plane for a thousand hours, after that you fly a CRJ with passengers until you’re comfortable landing, and after 20 years you may fly an A320 because until then we don’t trust you“.
HateJobLoveManU@reddit
Interesting comment to make in the thread where the European pilot is struggling
Detector150@reddit
There will always be pilots struggling everywhere. My comment was specifically aimed at someone who was worried about the European system.
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
I thought Canada put freshies in jets too though?
x4457@reddit
Not the same. In Canada you will very rarely find a 300-500 hour regional FO, but more commonly around 1000 hours.
In Europe, a 100-250 hour junior FO new hire in a 737 or A320 is the norm. Well over half I’d bet.
rockdoon@reddit
Depends on what you doing to get those hours, flying 135 jets to build time? Great experience, stuck flying in a pattern in a clapped out Cessna? Your probably picking up bad habits that will need to be unlearned at the airlines, honestly 200-300 hours is a good place because you have a decent amount of experience but you don’t have as many bad habits and are easier to mold
x4457@reddit
Nah. The 1500 hour CFI is absolutely, positively, without question the better aviator than the average 150 hour MPL graduate.
The 150 hour MPL graduate is going to be a much more disciplined, predictable, reliable systems operator in an Airbus though. They’re going to have a shorter learning curve learning the jet because that’s all they know and they’re going to just rote-memory their way through training.
Different philosophies, different experiences, different operating environments. I’d much rather have the 1500 hour CFI operating a CRJ-200 into FuckYouVille, South Dakota with a 25 knot crosswind than the MPL guy, but the MPL guy is going to do just as well if not better than the 1500 hour CFI flying into Heathrow in an A320. The MPL guy’s ability ceiling is definitely lower than the CFI’s though just based on how narrow and vanilla their flying experience actually is.
Historical-Pin1069@reddit
This is the issue with MPL. Going the conventional way CPL route is so much better for flying skills.
Historical-Pin1069@reddit
How do you know it’s MPL?
Captain_Billy@reddit
My ah ha moment for the A320 was to treat it less like an airplane and more like a lunar lander (no, i have not landed on the moon nor is it required… its a metaphor).
Little “puffs” of correction. Fundamentally the A320 controls differently than other airplanes. Everything you’ve flown before is “Yoke movement = Control surface movement”. This is not what happens in the A320.
The A320 is “Stick movement = Rate of change”. Bank change. Pitch change. The greater the stick input the greater the RATE of change. This might seem like it equates to the same thing but it doesn’t.
So, hand flying the A320 is all about “bumps” but always returning the stick to neutral. Continuous input is NOT a thing (unless you are doing steep turns or something similar and operating outside of the normal law stability parameters).
Directional bumps vs defined and extended control inputs
perispomene@reddit
If you're having issues judging your landings, you can try the Jacobson flare technique.
https://www.jacobsonflare.com/
DontAtMoi@reddit
Dawg. Look outside when others are landing. Then when you land make the outside look similar.
Watch the subtle control movements they make once they pass the threshold. Usually there’s an altitude callout they use to start easing back on the stick.
Flying jets ain’t easy sometimes, just stick with it.
Budfox_92@reddit
I also struggled on my line training with approaches and landings and it was the very last items to be signed off for me before line release.
Keep the rate of descent the same when approaching the runway and shifting your vision to outside you can cheat by quickly scanning your vsd and adjust accordingly.
At 50ft look outside at the end of the runway and at 20-30 just make a smooth flare and wrist until you see the airplanes pitch increasing just above the horizon and hold it.
It's really as simple as that in theory, what was happening to me was I was just getting a bit overloaded mentally and wasn't shifting my vision to the end of the runway at 50ft and as a result sometimes I would forget to flare.
Honestly a lot of people struggle it's normal just keep trying to improve and taking advice from the instructors it will all come together.
Otherwise-Pen70@reddit
Yes, I struggled mightily in my initial training. The simulator was kicking my ass. The instructor took me aside and told me I was not going to get thru training unless improved. This was the 727 and I was training as an F/O. In the simulator training with me was a new-hire training as a Flight engineer. When the session was over I felt like shit. This new hire (who was a former Navy Blue Angel) asked me if he could give me some advice and I said hell yes. He told me I had my seat slid too far back from the yoke amd with my long arms I was over-controlling. He told me that the next session I should slide me seat as far forward as I could and see how that worked. He also suggested I had a "death-grip" on the yoke and I should relax my grip. The next sim session began with me sliding my chair right up against the yoke. I could not believe the difference it made. The instructor stopped the sim and said: "I don't know what you ate last night or what you did last night but if you keep doing it you will pass this training". It was amazing what a difference it made. I passed the initial training and went out on IOE. Same thing, I slid my seat as far forward as I could and made my first take-off as an F/O on the 727. It went smoothly until I tried to land and I hit pretty hard. The LCA gave me some pointers which amounted to explaining on the 727 you don't really flare "you check( slight pull on the yoke) and Roll it on (push forward). "Push Forward in the flare"? Yep he said and after a couple more landings I mastered it. Jumping into a Transport Category Jet is a learning curve if all you have flown are small airplanes.
TravelinMan787@reddit
And this ladies and gentlemen is why MPL is the worst thing to ever come out of EASA
Rilex1@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
200 sim hours? Is this a EUROPE carrier?
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
Clearly isn’t USA as he mentioned base training.
Justo_ok@reddit
Curious about that too? Flying a A320 with 200-250TT??
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
Yes European second officers start flying 320s and 737s as their “regional jets” at around 200 hrs.
3nurk@reddit
To correct you — you fly as a first officer with ca 200h, not as a second officer.
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
I’ve seen videos with single stripe sitting right seat. What are they doing?
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
But 200 hrs of sim time. Holy shit, you should be able to fly the space shuttle with that much time.
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
Yeah it’s excessive lol
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It's not. With MPL, you never get a PPL, CPL or IR in light aircraft. In fact, most MPL programmes (as they are tailored to specific airline, it varies quite a bit) don't even do any multi engine training in a real aircraft, it's all sim. You learn most of the IR stuff (approaches, holds, etc.) in the sim of a multi-pilot jet.
Moreover, most airlines these days use FTDs for most of the training, so even when you're learning how to power up the airplane, set up the cockpit, brief, etc. - it's all done in an FTD or an FNPT, which counts as sim time.
WhiskyMcBisky@reddit
It's not for a MPL, his pilot licence is a completely different thing. They do like not much more than 100hrs in a total time in real aircraft and then put them in a sim doing the actual airline's SOPs. His pilot licence is both type specific and airline SOP specific, it's not worth much to any other flying job. Put a PPL holder in a A320 sim to start their IR and that's how you get 200 sim hours.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
An every day thing in most countries around the world.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Never heard of it...Clearly
CrossBamboAtTen@reddit
That’s why I educated (in the parentheses)
EpicDude007@reddit
Look at the other end of the runway. When you float you can do a slight dip so one of the main touches down, this activates partial lift dump. On the ILS you need to see a little blue inside each corner of the green square in the middle of the HSI. - It’s not easy, but you’ll get there. Just keep practicing. You’ll get there.
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
Do not quit. Let the company keep giving you training flights and sim sessions.
I was the same as you. Base training was... ok, then in line training I was ahead of the curve in every single aspect except the last 100ft on the approach. I could recite word-for-word the correct technique as per the FCTM, but in real life it just wasn't coming together. In the sim I would always flare too late or too little. In the aircraft, the captain won't let that happen, but sometimes I would over-compensate and flare too early, causing a float.
There isn't really any magic spell I can tell you to fix the issue, you just have to keep doing it. With practice, it will come. A senior instructor once told me that everyone has bad landings, even him. The difference that comes with experience is that the interval between your bad landings grows longer and longer. At one point during line training, after I'd got the hang of it, one of the instructors was going through a 'bad landing phase' and I was actually landing it better than him.
If you have a bad landing, learn what you can learn from it, then forget about it. Seriously. The only thing you'll do thinking about a previous mistake is distract yourself from what you're currently doing.
f0xns0x@reddit
In addition to the excellent advice offered already, I have two pieces of advice:
1) You have to completely remove any consideration of quitting from your mind. Give it 110% all the way until they tell you you’re fired. Be the hardest working motherf*cker they’ve ever seen until they lock you out of the building, full stop.
2) You HAVE to be a goldfish. Forget your f*ckups, immediately, and move on. DO NOT DWELL. Pilots can be very very hard on themselves, often their own worst critics. Clear your mind and fly the plane to the best of your ability at every moment, especially times like now when you feel like shit is hitting the fan. When it comes time to do your next landing, let go of everything you’ve mentioned in this post. You’re a goldfish, only aware of the thing you’re doing right now. Focus up and get it done.
Good luck, we’ve all struggled, and my landings are still sometimes terrible in the 787. You can do this. Stick it out.
zkoolie@reddit
What’s a bad landing look like in the 787? Is it like too much vertical descent?
cafe_brutale@reddit
Looks the same like in any other aircraft.
FlyingRottweiler@reddit
Lots of people struggle with the first few hundred hours. You may be in your own head and you’ll be just fine when you get into the groove.
I’m an A320 MPL instructor - feel free to get in touch if you just want to vent, chat or get advice.
Keep up the hard work!
738lazypilot@reddit
It is not your responsibility to judge your performance and call it quits, that's your instructors and examiners job, of they kept you moving forward, it's because you're still on track.
That being said, I would get more sim training, but the one you can get at home in your pc, either flight simulator or xplane or a cheap FBS in your area and do as many landings as you can as it seems to be your main issue.
It's impossible to train for a proper flare technique in a sim, but you can improve the muscle memory for your instrument scan technique while hand flying and thrust management and centre line tracking. And in a sim at home or close to you, you can reposition yourself at 1000/500ft on final and change the wind/wx conditions and do 5-10 landing per hour. Which will help with your muscle memory, instruments scan, centre line tracking, etc
GreenFlyer90@reddit
Keep at it and you'll get there. The A320 is a weird plane to get used to landing honestly. The lack of direct feedback can make it hard to establish your technique. I found landing it very tricky in the beginning too, what worked for me was really focusing on trying to cross the threshold at bang on 700fpm then looking half wad down the runway. I know some people swear to look to the end but that's what works for me. Remember that if you're floating you can release a little bit of pressure on the stick. I remember being terrified of smashing the nose into the runway but it's vital to adjust to avoid the float and drop. Also if you're coming in too fast then power is your friend, don't chop the thrust until your rate of descent is under control, particularly if you're heavy.
MIAMAN69@reddit
OP has been banned from Reddit. Very strange.
Inevitable_Panda_999@reddit
Why is this account suspended?
22Hoofhearted@reddit
For perspective, you are "hacking it" you are just working on perfecting it
EnvironmentCrafty710@reddit
There was a great talk at the Air Force Academy way back before YouTube existed (I wish I had the video). It was Human Factors for the incoming class of pilots.
He described far more elegantly than I will, the reality that every single person in the room was about to face.
He started explaining that very single person in the room was exceptional. To get into that room, you have to be. Every single one was a driven and dedicated person. They were used to excelling. School to that point in their lives was easy. If they found challenges in their coursework it was because they sought out challenges.
They were used to being the faster/fastest kids in the class. Whatever they put their minds to, they achieved.
But something fundamental was about to change for them.
He had them all look around.
"You are all exceptional. You are among your peers now."
He explained that the coursework that they were used to was written for the general population... but now they'd be doing coursework that was written for them.
That has a profound impact.
When you're used to being the head of the pack, it feels very unnerving to struggle to keep up. You start wondering what's wrong with you, when nothing is.
You've just not been challenged like this before.
I'm sure you've worked out the reason I'm telling you this story.
Welcome to it.
It's not going to "feel" good or "right".
It is going to be a struggle.
But please remember... you're one of the ones that made it into that room.
You wouldn't be there if you couldn't handle this.
Keep at it.
You got this.
Reaver_XIX@reddit
This is so true!
Flybywired-320@reddit
Dear OP.
The A320 isn’t really flying the same as your GA aircraft did so in a sense you’re expected to fly (read land) differently then what you’ve experienced in the past. You could try to approach it a little differently with this mindset. The side stick is really a steep learning curve for aircraft handling since it’s not connected to anything (other than a computer).
My advice for any landing (non gusty wind days) is to just around 20 ft call arrest the sink so that by 10 or 5 ft, you are just waiting for the wheels to touch. At that point floating will be unlikely but also a bounce or pitch problem won’t happen either. Then maintain that sight until the wheels touch. Firm landings are completely acceptable in the beginning. Just get it on the runway in the landing zone and worry about decelerating. Remember to not reduce the crab in the beginning and just correct the longitudinal after the mains have touched down in stronger crosswinds. Centerline is more important, the crab technique will improve with time. Most people aren’t comfortable landing a new jet airplane until they have 50-150 hours in it.
On my first day I was landing an A321 in gusty winds straight after my last time in the sim. Very different feeling and the most helpful thing the line instructor said was “I know in the sim they tell you not to “stir the pot” but when flying in gusty winds, you sometimes have to (momentarily) go to full stick deflection to keep wings level”. I still think about that 10 years later.
When it comes to pitch over the runway (not to het the priority left or pitch situations, try not to make large corrections but rather follow the above and by 20 ft set a pitch that slows the sink from 600-700 ft per minute to 5. Then just hold it there and don’t let the nose come up more (pitch call) and after touch down, especially due to the spoilers deploying, “fly” the nose gear onto the runway so you don’t allow the pitch to increase after touch down.
We’ve all been there, just hang in there and try to not let it get to your head. Nobody is looking for pretty or smooth landings (yet), just worry about it being a safe one. You’ll look back in a couple of years and laugh about it.
ifitgoesitsgood@reddit
This is why we have a 1500 hour rule….
Mike734@reddit
You should not be getting any down votes. We have all seen too many examples of inexperienced pilots being involved in too many accidents. Not everyone is cut out to be a pilot, let alone a captain. It’s not all that difficult but does require some specific skills.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
I can only recall one crash where the first officer held an MPL, and it couldn't have been prevented by FO having 30,000 hours.
ifitgoesitsgood@reddit
Here’s a person struggling to fly a 320 with 200 hours and people are critical of my take that we should expect more time from airline pilots.
stephen1547@reddit
Europe can do whatever it wants, but this is the reason that you don’t have 200 hour pilots flying airliners. They aren’t ready.
HorkBajirGafrash@reddit
The issue is practical. We have a fraction of the GA jobs compared to the US. The number of full time CFI positions in Europe is in the hundreds. Other type of aerial work possible to do on a CPL without getting into airlines are incredibly rare. In my country I would estimate perhaps 5 or 10 such positions.
Not defending what we do over here. I have actually seen several pilots like OP out on line training. But Europe knows they won't have any cockpit crew if we raise the hour limit on FOs.
I had my 1500 when I started on the line because I was lucky enough to score one of the few CFI jobs. And I thought my line training was difficult. Can't imagine doing it on a fresh MPL. Absolutely crazy.
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
I think the statistics would reflect that this is not true. How many millions of flight hours have low time pilots logged in airliners without incident? If it was a problem, they'd probably have adjusted by now, right?
For the record, the idea of 200 hour pilots flying airliners seems wild to me, even if the stats show otherwise. I was flying simple Citation jets in the low hundreds hour range, and I think that was fine, but those are really nothing like airliners. In any case, I am in the US, so that was never an option to begin with, but it is always strange to be flying as a passenger in Europe on a European carrier and thinking, there may be someone with 200 hours landing this thing right now lol gotta trust that people who know better than I do about this stuff are making these calls.
possieur@reddit
If you're flying ILS approaches, just follow the fds up until 100, but start scanning in and out before that. That greatly cuts your "handling" work to less than a minute.
nguyenm@reddit
First of all, if you're okay in 98% of all the competencies during training, such as knowledge, descent profile, and automation management, then it's unlikely just the flare will get you an unsatisfactorily overall on your profile.
I'd say start with the FCOM regarding Flare mode to understand what's the aircraft is doing at short final.
The A320 when at it's at 3 degree glide path/slope, and VS of -700ft/s, is already at a nose-high attitude or pitch already. While not universal, I tend to internally understand a flare to the A320 is more of a reduction in vertical speed, rather than a transition from nose-below-horizon to nose-above-horizon type of flare that's expected for training GA aircrafts. So when flaring, there's some stuff you can trick the brain into needing to slightly reduce V/S at 50ft RA, side stick neutral, then reduce it again at 40ft RA, then at 30ft RA, just flare by eyes (or feeling) to the centerline/end of runway. At 20ft, you're just cancelling out the -2 deg/s pitch down by the FBW computer for a good flare.
I'd also seconded other comments on trying to fix your posture and arm rest position. Mine's an almost-oddity of G8 with the seats rather low & forward, but it took to around ~50 sectors in the line training for me to develop such information.
Bluefoxpilot@reddit
You got this far for a reason. Stop with the self doubt and get your head back in the game.
Cessnateur@reddit
A friend of mine flew and instructed in the 320-series for many years, and I thought his impressions here were interesting:
*“The Airbus is a treat to hand-fly, especially with the autothrust engaged. I can hand-fly an ILS with one engine or two, and only make two or three control inputs all the way down final.”
“If you look at the little square in the center of the “airplane” symbol on the PFD, it shows exactly one pixel of black at each corner when the flight director crosshairs are centered. You can narrow your scan down to those four pixels and fly the whole airplane by no more reference than that.”
“I fought it a bit at first - “stirred the paint” as my instructor called the unnecessary sweeps of sidestick but a few minutes into the second simulator session realized what it took. It is like flying a spacecraft with reaction thrusters - you just give it a shot of sidestick, let go and watch it respond. When it is going where you want, you just stop making control inputs. I love it!”*
Attackpilsung@reddit
This. I fly with 3 fingers to prevent over controlling. I tap the input and wait for the effect. If I grip the control firmly, I will still sometimes over control and get into a PIO.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
It's an airbus. Read the manual and stop trying to fly it. Direct it. If things get wonky, let go of the stick for a 2 potato count. Do NOT try and flare, just arrest the descent rate.
The plane is legitimately designed to let the lowest common denominator fly it consist ely and safely, the fact that you're having trouble means you don't understand the underlying principles of the machine. This is not your fault, it's the instruction you had. Go back over the manuals, refamiliarize yourself with the underlying methodology, and accept that you're simply giving the computer requests on what you want it to do, and it's the one figuring out how to make that work.
The plane is great once you realize it's in charge and you're just a backseat driver.
Character-Shoe-7803@reddit
I just wanna emphasize, I’ve never flown the A320 series. Just the CRJ and 737. All I can say is that if you were never meant to be in the seat you wouldn’t be given the chance. Btw how tall are you? Seating position goes a long way with landing technique. As far as the stable approach criteria, I can’t really help. If you can’t fly the flight director into the ground it’ll be hard to coach you. Maybe u need a lil flight simulator set up at home. Practice on that for a while
frost08887@reddit
Are you a woman?
Frost_907@reddit
What I’ve seen from both training other people and having been through several training programs myself, pilot skill seems to follow a wave pattern during that time. You go through phases of making great progress but then you’ll go through phases of what seems like regression. Highs and lows. I think that’s pretty normal for all pilots and if you could look at the big picture you’d probably see your skill level steadily rising over time.
Keep at it and don’t get discouraged. Treat even the bad flights as learning moments and reflect on how to improve on what went wrong.
Alfvenskus@reddit
I saw you mention you could not see the end of the runway in the flare. That is a problem. Make sure your seat is set so the sight line balls ate lined up. This is very important!
InternationalMud3392@reddit
Get the idea that you can’t do it out of your head. Visualize yourself doing it properly over and over and over again. Stay positive, you got it!
lja135@reddit
These things helped me during training, though your mileage may vary.
1.) Fix your seating position. I gradually lowered and moved my seat back during training and it improved my consistency in landing and runway alignment. It might have something to do with your sight picture.
2.) Fix your grip. I used to keep my thumb on the thumb rest on the sidestick when manually flying. I found that I had a hard time correcting in variable winds because I defaulted to trying to correct with my thumb when the scenario called for greater deflections and I kept getting left behind by the aircraft.
3.) Use the RA. Try to pay attention to the pace of the RA, it helps indicates how much you need/don't need to flare.
4.) Try to stabilize as you enter Flare Mode. I tried crossing 50FT at 700FPM to make things "standard" for my flare. Even if the glide path angle is greater than 3 degrees or if I had a tailwind, I would maintain whatever FPM was required in reference to my ground speed and as I approached 50FT, I would bring it back up/down to 700FPM. If you float, just release back pressure. Do not push down, and be ready to catch it.
5.) Dont be afraid to correct for centerline as you flare. You are allowed to correct your alignment with ailerons and rudder as you de-crab, check FCTM.
6.) Don't be scared of floating. As long as your mains touch within the touchdown zone, safety shouldn't give you a call. If they don't, then go around. A go around is a normal procedure, and you calling a go around yourself tells your TRI/TRE that you haven't frozen up if you become unstablized.
At some point, things will just click and slow down for you. Just keep going, you'll get released to the line.
Turkstache@reddit
Don't select yourself out of flying. As long as they're still training you, they believe you have a future flying for them.
Some of the things you mentioned suggest that you are following procedures a fault... that is you're doing all the motions but don't understand what you're doing or why. You mentioned
and
and
...all of which suggest to me that your concept of flaring is "pull stick at right time and wait for plane to do its part... I just have to do what the text says." In other words, you're treating the stick like a button. When you've pressed it (pulled for flare), and the plane didn't do what you wanted it to (by drifting off centerline), you are trying to think of another button to press and can't so you freeze. You talk in almost a passive tone, as if the plane is inevitably doing things you can't correct because you ran out of steps in your procedure. I would also wager you make big control inputs and hold them without refining them (the airbus control concept is not going to train you out of this habit without deliberate action)
I saw this a lot as a CFI and as a military instructor and I see it on the line at my airline. I'm in no place to train you directly so I will only say so much but you need to fly the plane between steps. Going back to the first example:
no no no... YOU were holding just the right amount of back pressure (or adding backpressure at just the right rate) that your lift remained constant while the jet was slowing down. Being early or late had little to do with it. A pilot should be able to ease the jet down if flaring too early and catch the descent rate if flaring too late. They should be able to recognize it the moment it happens and begin corrections immediately (it sounds like you're committing to your pull and hoping for the best, as interpreted by the PITCH callouts you're getting). You are judging your flare by what the plane does loooong after your first input. You have to assess what that flare is going to be from the moment you move that nose.
The one thing I've said to improve people with your tendency is to increase the frequency of your corrections, decrease the magnitude. In other words, make control inputs more often and make them very small. You can try two small, quick inputs in the place of one large one. You can try varying the backpressure during the pitch up for the flare. No matter what you do, take ownership of every little motion of that aircraft.
randombrain@reddit
Are we really self-censoring "screwed" now?
This isn't tiktok. Don't comply in advance.
Historical-Pin1069@reddit
Air Arabia MPL?
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
What country are you in? And how many hours total do you have?
Historical-Pin1069@reddit
Curious are you in the states? How many checkride failures did you have total as well?
JediPenis_69@reddit
Honestly I struggled with the same thing when I started flying jets, especially the A320. What helped me immensely was lowering my seat. I was sitting with the seat alignment balls about 1/2 ball low and that helped me judge the height above the runway so much better.
Take it with a grain of salt, but if you’re at a loss, might be worth a shot 🤷🏼♂️
louie350@reddit
Fly Airbus with two fingers only. Keep at it.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Newsflash, flying a jet at 100-150h (I guess based on MPL) is pretty difficult, but we've all been there and got through it.
Yeah, no. Not even close. For someone at your level experience, you're probably looking at around 20-30 landings minimum, to get consistently good and safe landings (not greasers, nobody cares about those). You can have a good technique in the simulator, but it can't really represent thermals, gusts, rotors and other meteorological effects you face when landing a real aircraft in the real world.
How to fix it? Listen carefully to what your instructors are saying (they have a lot more experience judging your progress than you do), and practice. And then more practice. And then even more. And then some.
That's incredibly common. Sounds like you're a pretty typical book smart person, that has difficulties with handling the aircraft. On the opposite spectrum, you have people with natural ability to fly whatever they can get their hands on, but you could hit them with a book 24/7, and they wouldn't be able to learn any checklist responses, callouts, or other things.
Remember that everyone is struggling with something during training, be it knowledge, aircraft handling, flows, procedures, workload management, etc. Jumping from something doing 90 knots at full throttle to something doing 550 kts in descent with a decent tailwind, and where you arrive into the flare at three times the speed of some trainers... isn't easy. It never has been.
Remember about those hazardous attitudes you've had to learn for your ATPL exams? I think you're exhibiting one of them pretty clearly.
If you give up now, you're guaranteed to never make it through training. If you keep persisting, keep putting in the effort, and keep doing your absolute best... well, you have a pretty good chance of succeeding.
EpicRedhead13@reddit
Yeah 8 landings doesn’t feel like very many. I am transitioning to the Skyhawk and I did more than that in one lesson today. I still haven’t gotten it all the way. Good enough to be safe but not to pass a checkride.
Which_Material_3100@reddit
How is your armrest positioned? You should be able to rest your arm and fly with a relaxed grip on the stick moving only your wrist. I usually recommend starting with C-5 and adjust from there.
If you find yourself over controlling on short final momentarily let go of the stick, then come back on.
At the 50 foot call start transitioning your eyes to the end of the runway to judge your flare. If the cadence of the 50, 40, 30, 20 callouts are fast or slow adjust your sink rate based on that.
I had about 6 months of non-stellar landings in the Bus before I started to figure it out. Be patient with yourself. You got this far. Keep going
LifeTie800@reddit
Had the same issues as you. Couldn't get it, waiting for it to click. Instructors gave their advice and it never worked.
Until 1 Instructor just said remember to look at the far end of the rwy. And that was what I needed. Realized that I was distracted on doing everything FCTM, instructors, the internet said. And I forgot to do the 1 thing that was taught to us since day 1. Far end of the rwy.
After that and it started to click, of course still needed a few flights to make it into a habit and a technique that works for me.
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
I came from flying private jets. I was flying small private jets around 300-500 hours total time, but much of that was more as a learner co-pilot, with either single-pilot rated captains, or captains who knew the jet so well that they were fine operating, essentially, as a single pilot crew. Getting on the 757 with about 1500 small jet hours in my logbook was brutal for me. I wasn't even out of training when I contacted my airline's pilot peer support group because I was so riled about feeling like I didn't know what I was doing. My first landing, the training captain had to grab the yoke and yank it because I was still so used to small jets that I was going to slam it into the ground something fierce, even after passing all the sims. Like you, I went and watched all sorts of YouTube videos about approaches and landings, sitting right up near a big screen TV so I could figure out sight picture, over and over and over.
It all ended up helping and it worked out.
I have no idea what those airbus-y terms are, and how big of a deal it is to get them, but just keep going. You've made it - you're at the airlines, you've put in the work, and if you're just not getting it to the point of not being able to continue there, let them make that call. I mean, without savings, wouldn't it be a bit silly to leave without being forced out anyway? It doesn't sound like there is any smart move right now except to just keep working hard. Landings don't need to be perfect or super pretty, they just need to be safe and within standards. If you can get them there, you will be fine, and then you will refine your craft and get better and better.
ananajakq@reddit
It takes a YEAR or TWO to feel very comfortable on an airplane. The goal is 100% lack of nerves and having it in the bag when you’re flying fresh out of line indoc. The goal is that you’re safe and sufficient. The rest takes a lot of time. You need to make sure you’re safe. Finesse takes 1-2 years. Don’t be hard on yourself. Go on for some practice sims if you need. Or speak to your Chief Pilot/union about facilitating some additional training.
Enwhyme@reddit
Good luck with your PPL.
Advise on reviewing Sportys material for practice test
22Planeguy@reddit
Hey man, this is a tough spot to be in. I would bet good money that your problem isn't that you can't handle a jet well or that you're bad at flying. You're looking at a lucrative career and thinking about how you're gonna blow it. The truth is though, that you aren't.
You said it yourself, you're good at everything but the landings. You've done 8 of them in the jet. Were you good at your first 8 landings during your PPL training? I sure wasn't. It's an entirely new kind of flying in a jet. Don't be so hard on yourself.
As to when to call it quits? Never. Let them fire you before you quit. You spent too much time and money and effort to give up now. Take some leave or something if you need a break, but giving up should not be an option for you.
Mike93747743@reddit
Don’t quit. Really that simple. They can run you out of there but don’t quit. You’ll never forgive yourself if you do.
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
I’ve never flown an Airbus, but I can say that muscle memory is a HUGE part of the short final approach/landing. You’ll start to just automatically respond when a gust pushes you up, you feel it sink, etc. It takes a lot of repetition to build that muscle memory. The sim does not replicate it and the only way to learn it is to keep flying.
The-Good-Pilot@reddit
Don’t voluntarily quit unless you’re so stressed out you feel like you’re on the edge of a nervous breakdown. By the sounds of it I’m sure you have more to give.
Make sure you’re eating healthily and exercising. Swim, run, row etc, get cardio sessions in.
The airline has probably invested a lot of money in you thus far, they’re probably much more interested in getting you checked off and able to crew flights and slowly improve than straight up letting you go over something that can be fixed (shitty behaviour, non compliance etc cannot be fixed, but that’s not your issue here is it).
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
Even if you’re that stressed out I wouldn’t quit, I’d look at the options for leave that are offered by the company.
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
You are not a robot man, take it easy. To make errors and fail is human.
Why even consider quitting until someone tells you you can’t keep going? This is hazardous attitude of resignation and what dk we do about hazardous attitudes?
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Flight training has been challenging from the get go, not the theoretical content, not the flows. My struggle has been the manual handling. I had to repeat flights when flying single engine, and multi-engine was challenging (fewer flights repeated, but had issues with flare/landing technique, couldn't handle adverse weather very well, and poor rudder authority on assymetric flights).
Long story short, I made it to the airlines and base training didn't go quite as well as I had hoped. Flat landings and inconsistent flare technique. I got another go but the winds were picking up, and my manual handling wasn't good (couldn't stabilise on final approach, therefore didn't have a good stabilised platform coming up to that 50 ft). This wasn't marked a fail and I was allowed to have another sim session, then another go. Managed to get a great day out, basically nil winds and I passed eventually.
This first set of failures, I took it hard, I cried in front of the instructor (not a good look, but in my mind the base training was supposed to be the day all my training consolidated and I could start a new chapter of training on the line, and I bungled it). I was so confident I thought I had it in the bag, I figured having passed the sim, I was ready to go. But the technique just wasn't up to par, and my confidence was completely shot. I started to think of the financial hole I had dug for myself, and what possible career I could have afterwards. Eventually passing didn't feel as good as I thought it would, perhaps because I had put so many expectations on the first day.
Anyway, I got out on the line. First week started off great, demonstrated the flows well and learned more things I wasn't exposed to in the sims. Instructors have remarked I am well ahead of where I need to be in terms of knowledge, admin, descent management, comms etc. But my handling is still poor. In that first week I got the dreaded 'priority left' on two occasions. On one of them, after the '20' call out the plane just continue to float with no indication of touching down. On the second one my pitch rate was too fast and I got the 'pitch' call.
Second week of line training, control was taken on two occasions yet again. I got the pitch callout, and I got destabilised and ended up floating and left of centerline for the other. It wasn't a great start to the week, and with wind gusts of 25-35 kts, I didn't get to do many other landings in the week, instructors didn't want to have to take control because I don't do well with weather, so they didn't want my confidence to get shot even further. On the last day, wind calm, I got two landings. The first was okay, correct flare height, good pitch rate. Manual brakes all the way so struggled just a bit with mantaining the centerline and braking at the same time, but it was adequate (could have been better). The second landing I felt I flared to high and eased off the back pressure. Turns out I flared at the right time, and needed a bit more back pressure. More sim time is being recommended.
I am really at a low point. I can't say I have tried my hand at many things in life, but for those that I have, I have either excelled, or met the standards. But with flying I can't seem to hack it. What good is it to apply all the right techniques and knowledge and get into the air only to not be able to safely land? I have read the FCTM over and over again, I've watched countless videos to see how others approach the flare. I study, I put the work in. But the manual flying is a mountain I am starting to believe I can't climb. I've had over 200 sim hours, and coming up on almost 50 hours in the aircraft (granted I have only had about 8 landings but still); this is more than enough experience to be able to get things right. And I just don't seem to be getting it.
Has anyone had issues of this magnitude, or know of those who have? And when would be a good time to call it quits? I can genuinely say I have tried my very best, it just isn't enough, and maybe I am not coachable.
And how do I move forward? I don't like wearing the uniform anymore, I feel it isn't earned and I am not at the level I should be to wear it. And I worry about future prospects as I have no savings, and nothing else to fall back on. I'm basically scr*wed. I doubt I will be given more chances to show I can manually fly and land, which means I am just counting down the days until I am let go. And when I am, I have nothing else to fall back on (I've an MPL so I can't look for opportunities elsewhere).
Anyway, this is where I am at. All tips/advice are welcome.
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