Why do Pony Cars have the reputation of not being able to turn well when the “Pony Car Wars” were fought in Road Racing?
Posted by Mac-Tyson@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 42 comments
Is it just a confusion between Pony Cars (Mustang, Camaro, etc) and Full Size Muscle Cars (Charger, Ford Torino, etc) that were primarily designed for drag racing/oval racing? Or is it something else? Since it seems like this viewpoint is even shared by some motorsports fans.
BRICH999@reddit
Mustang gt nurburgring ring time(460hp): 8:18 Camaro ss ring time(460hp): 7:53 Charger hellcat ring time(707hp): 8:58
Audi rs3(394hp) ring time: 7:33 BMW m2 cs ring time(523hp): 7:25 Porsche cayman gts ring time(394hp): 7:40
Seeing sub 400hp cars beat 700hp dodge by over a minute on a very twisty track, do you disagree?
0peRightBehindYa@reddit
Two things:
A: those are muscle cars. There really aren't any modern "pony cars". Back in the 60s, muscle cars denoted full sized cars with really big engines: Torinos, Chevelles, Chargers and Challengers, etc. a Pony Car was a car segment created by the Mustang which consisted of a mid-sized car with the option of putting something a lil more potent up front. The Mustang was marketed as a secretary's car. It was basically designed to be what the Miata turned into: a gay hairdresser's car. Then Ford plunked a 289 into it and suddenly you had cheap performance in a smaller package. The Camaro soon followed, and suddenly ther was a whole new segment of midsized cars with big ass engines. And amazingly, unlike their bigger muscle car brothers, they could be made to handle fairly competently.
And
B: OP was referring to 60s and 70s pony cars....the ones who raced the Trans Am series...not modern cars.
9BALL22@reddit
Actually, muscle cars were MIDSIZE CARS with full size engines.
WhaleCanUse@reddit
The Vega, Pinto, Pacer, Gremlin were the compacts at the time. Mustang and Camaro had cousin cars that could be had with 4 doors in the Nova and Fairmont which were considered compact cars for the market but in my opinion they are just small cars.
9BALL22@reddit
Pinto and Vega may have been considered sub-compact, not sure. Pony cars were a separate catagory, available with small V8s, I6s and didn't get larger 8s until their 2nd generation.
SaveJeanie@reddit
I feel like the Mazda3 and Mazda3 Turbo are the only real pony cars left. Never you mind the 4 doors.
0peRightBehindYa@reddit
Wouldn't those fall into hot hatches?
SaveJeanie@reddit
Definitely, but still.
ScaryfatkidGT@reddit
Bet the SS 1LE beats the RS3…
Also no mention of the ZL1 1LE 🤪
BRICH999@reddit
Yeah and a 911 gt3rs beats a ss 1le, a gtd beats a ss 1le, mercedes amg gt-r beats a ss 1le etc. I tried to keep it middle of the road performance car in good faith like muscle cars are. Gets boring comparing gtd vs zr1x vs gt3rs vs amg one
ScaryfatkidGT@reddit
Those all cost twice as much or more as the comparison… like the GTD beating the ZR1 Vette… the GTD is $350,000+
DismalAd6639@reddit
The challenger is not a pony car, and you are comparing the base GT and Camaro, not the handling focused models, and they are much cheaper than the German cars you listed.
Yeah I disagree
BRICH999@reddit
No I went for middle of the road performance from both sides of the atlantic. I wasnt talking about zr1x vs gtd vs 911 gt3rs vs r8 vs amg one because those dont really represent muscle cars to me.
DismalAd6639@reddit
Why not compare the gt350 and zl1 then? They are way closer in price, but faster and cheaper than their German competitors
BRICH999@reddit
Wasnt the gt350r like 105k msrp? The gt350 w/track pack would be reasonable but the R was significantly more expensive. But sure put it in the mix as it is an excellent handling car
Gt350r(526hp) ring time: 7:32 putting it between rs3 and m2 CS.
And I know the zl1 1le is a beast but I dont know, I think in all metrics it's a bit beyond comparison with a rs3 or 718 gts. It's a track package much more like a 718 gt4 which is still quicker around the ring than a ZL1 1LE.
EventHorizonHotel@reddit
You left out the Camaro ZL1 1LE: 7:16 though
DismalAd6639@reddit
Right, I can do the same thing and compare the ZL1 to the BMW M240i - 9:02, that’s extremely embarrassing
BRICH999@reddit
In other news a gt3rs is quicker than a v6 camaro.
EventHorizonHotel@reddit
If you torture the data it will confess 😁
Not_Sure__Camacho@reddit
And the MSRP for the Camaro was pretty close, and sometimes less than those other cars.
Mac-Tyson@reddit (OP)
Would you make the argument that any of the following vehicles can’t turn well:
Volkswagen Golf: 8:15.10
BMW M3 (E46): 8:22
Ford Fiesta ST: 8:22
BRICH999@reddit
I'd say a 315hp golf beating a 707hp dodge and a 460hp mustang is impressive. A 333hp bmw that came out 24 years ago beats a 707hp dodge is impressive. And nearly on pace with a 460hp mustang.
The fiesta ST is based on a global architecture designed by mazda which is known for good handling cars.
The mustang GTD should be put in a prototype class since it is an unobtainable car that was further modified by ford. It is not a stock GTD. Nobody can just buy one. If rules dont matter, both the ID.R(6:05) and 919EVO(5:19) absolutely dust it along with 1983 porsche 956(6:11)
0peRightBehindYa@reddit
The 707hp Dodge was never meant to be a corner carver, and anyone who claims it was is a damn liar. Modern Chargers and Challengers are meant for bragging rights at the local drag strip and for humbling people from stoplight to stoplight. They aren't meant to set fast 'Ring times.
BRICH999@reddit
Which is the point I was making when OP asked why american muscle isnt known for turning
0peRightBehindYa@reddit
...except OP asked about 60s pony cars, not modern muscle cars. Totally different animals.
Mac-Tyson@reddit (OP)
I was asking about Pony Cars in general in the modern day perception not specifically 60s pony cars. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
Euphoric_Loquat_8651@reddit
Even in the pony car death rattle that was the fox body mustang, they could be made to corner pretty respectably. Not like a smaller (and stiffer) car for sure, but they were already very much phoning it in at that point. I'm not sure you can call any of them pony cars after that. They went all-in on loud HP.
0peRightBehindYa@reddit
I think the Camaro and Mustang have broken the confines of what a pony car originally encapsulated: a sporty, affordable, mid-sized coupe that blurs the line between pure sports car and pure muscle car. The Challenger was never considered a pony car. The Duster and the AMX, maybe, but the big body MOPARs were pure muscle through and through, and they never tried to hide it.
If I were to think of a modern day pony car, there really aren't any domestic offerings that fit the bill: a mid-sized, affordable, sporty, practical coupe...with a bit of an attitude.
Equivalent_Thievery@reddit
Heh, I've left tons of dodges at lights in my Fiesta ST. Yeah, they usually catch up whether or not I've let off because of the speed limit. But I know even stock, I was leaving them. I've put some distance on a 392 challenger, could hear him back at the intersection spinning tires. I'd already reached the speed limit and stopped when he blew by me.
They're just fat and only really quick at highway speeds or on a strip if they've got good enough tires and can hook.
ScaryfatkidGT@reddit
Even back then smaller lighter cars kept up with them
The Camaro and Mustang have been full one sports cars, capable of turning very well since around 2012…
Low_Living4532@reddit
Race cars have special race parts, muscle cars have mass produced cheap stuff.
The_World_Is_A_Slum@reddit
The average pony car was not a particularly good or bad handling car for it’s size and era. Big block cars were understeering pigs with poor rear axle control, but even then, the big block cars were comparatively rare. Every single one of them was based on a compact car - Falcon, Chevy II, Dart, Rambler - with no performance pretensions, although each was entirely competent.
The “sporting” options, like the Z28, Trans Am, Shelbys and so on had comprehensive suspension packages that handled far better than the standard or other performance models, and occasionally better brakes were available. Second generation Trans Ams and Z28s, in particular, handle very, very well on smoother surfaces.
TellemTom@reddit
Because it’s all relative; they’re still heavy compared to lighter roadsters.
eatingabananawrong@reddit
Mini Coopers as well!
random_agency@reddit
If you're referring to mustangs, they had a solid rear axles. That's why they turned they felt less planted. If one rear wheel hit a bump on a turn, the other wheel would be affected.
dubgeek@reddit
Are contemporary Mustangs and Camaros still considered pony cars? I've always thought of their top trim V8 models as muscle cars, but that could be my misunderstanding.
Mac-Tyson@reddit (OP)
It’s debated but most would consider the Mustang and Camaro at min pony cars but the modern Challenger is more debated.
dubgeek@reddit
Got it. Well, maybe running a solid rear axle into the 2010s (2010 Camaro, 2015 Mustang) has played a role in the handling reputation lingering despite the racing lineage?
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
It's most just bias.
That said different tools for different tasks, and racing is a poor allegory to compare factory/street cars.
mmmmmyee@reddit
Dudes that purchased pony cars didn’t really do much pony car stuff, but were popular with going straight and beauty queen stuff.
These were cars made for specific needs, like mustang and initially being a car for young people (in before secretary’s car) to get around town. And then ford and other OEMs raced them because racing is cool, and thenn their engineers tackled the cars to better perform on track
In stock form they all roll like boats
Mac-Tyson@reddit (OP)
It’s kind of like how Keiichi Tsuchiya hated the base trim Corvette but loved the higher trims and went as far as to call it the American version of a Nissan Skyline GTR.
withsexyresults@reddit
All the content of mustangs crashing leaving parking lots and for a long time it had a solid axle