An Azul Embraer E195-E2 taking off from Congonhas airport came dangerously close to a GOL Boeing 737-800 that had aborted its landing. Initial analysis indicates the Azul crew ignored the tower's request to abort takeoff
Posted by madman320@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 124 comments
Altselbutton@reddit
If they were past V1 the crew in the Embraer were absolutely right not to abort the takeoff.
Tower could have just given a left of right heading to the aircraft going around.
madman320@reddit (OP)
On the full video, the controller issued the first order to abort takeoff when the aircraft had barely begun to roll, and issued it a second time when the aircraft was still 1/3 of the way down the runway. I understand Congonhas has a short runway, but there is definitely no chance the aircraft had already reached V1, not even on the second time the tower requested it.
fedeger@reddit
In my limited portuguese, he told them to hold position, not to reject or abort, key words pilots are more likely to hear.
First, he cleared them for Take off. And once the aircraft is rolling, there is a lot of noise, as well as challenges and callouts from both pilots and sometimes even from the aircraft. So the tower saying hold position, could meant for any other aircraft. The controller should have repeated callsign and say abort/reject in a firm voice.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
No, tower was clear 'mantenha posição e aborte a decolagem", which translates to "hold position and abort take-off", loud and clear.
phaederus@reddit
Correct phraseology in Portuguese should have been "“[Indicativo], pare imediatamente, [indicativo], pare imediatamente.” according to MCA 100-16 — Fraseologia de Tráfego Aéreo, which is aligned with ICAO standard (“[CALL SIGN], STOP IMMEDIATELY, [CALL SIGN], STOP IMMEDIATELY.”)
doskkyh@reddit
While I don't disagree that using the correct terminology is important, I don't see the ambiguity of using "aborte a decolagem" instead of "cancele a decolagem". It seems to deliver the intention quite clearly.
This discussion is pointless for this incident if the Azul were already out of the frequency, though. They couldn't have misunderstood if they didn't hear it in the first place.
tavareslima@reddit
Azul shouldn’t be out of the frequency during takeoff roll though. The tower handles takeoff and landing
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Thanks for elaborating on that! I have no idea how that works here in Brazil.
fedeger@reddit
Keep in mind that you are hearing tower recording, you do not know how or if the pilots heard it “loud and clear”.
Also, for such a critical instruction, the phrase is too long and the tone too casual.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Yeah, you are correct. In the full video the controller explains to the Gol pilots that the Azul aircraft left the tower frequency before taking off, and that's why he wasn't hearing the abort commands. This is going to be a hell of an incident report and I bet Azul has 2 openings for E-Jet pilots right now.
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
Is that even allowed? It sounds wrong.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
It's not.
fedeger@reddit
That context changes things indeed.
No-Rutabaga-4750@reddit
They said both: Hold Position (Mantenha Posição) Aborte a decolagem (Abort takeoff)
Then repeated both.
After the incident the 737 reported a TCAS alert to which ATC replied that the other plane had left the frequency before takeoff was complete. (I don’t know how ATC would know that though)
Thurak0@reddit
Any aviation specialists here? Would really be interesting if tower could actually know for sure.
opotamus_zero@reddit
It's not really practical unless they transmitted.
It's technically possible - there's ways to determine if a receiver is tuned to a particular frequency. Police radar-detector-detectors and the old UK BBC tax enforcement vehicles reportedly did. MI5 officer [Peter Wright](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wright_(MI5_officer)) described using the technique to uncover Soviet spies in his book Spycatcher.
But what practical use would that be to ATC?
"we can tell your radio was tuned and switched on..."
"oh the headphone plug slipped out I guess"
Lensatic_wilkinson@reddit
I don't know if this is the case here, but some foreign airports will instruct you to change frequencies when airborne with your take-off clearance. Sounds something like this:
"Carrier 123 fly runway heading, when airborne contact departure on XXX.XX, clear for take-off runway YZ".
Stoney3K@reddit
But they were certainly not airborne before V1, and any abort instruction later than V1 would have been pointless anyway.
phaederus@reddit
None of which is in accordance to ICAO standards..
Hans_S0L0@reddit
That’s pretty significant detail to be left out in the title.
P3ktus@reddit
Captain should have his licence ripped then
Curfax@reddit
Or, (and I have no evidence this happened), maybe the pilots didn’t hear the instructions. Could be something as simple as bumping the volume or paying close attention to the aircraft performance.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Or someone keying PTT on the same frequency at the same time, but twice?
FEMA_Camp_Survivor@reddit
Note to self: never ever fly to Congonhas
baronmunchausen2000@reddit
Or rather, never ever fly Azul.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
Untill this incident I had them higher than Latam and Gol here. Best customer support and in flight comfort, IMO in Brazil, at least for regional flights. I'd rather fly and Ejet than a 737 or a320 anyday.
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
Excuse-me what? Last flight i had with azul i took an e-jet (it was actually supposed to be an A320, but they changed last minute) to my destination and an A320, don't remember if it was a neo or not, on the way back. The A320 is almost an widebody when compared to the e-jet. It feels waay less cramped.
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
I really enjoy the legroom in the Ejet. I feel cramped in a320s and even more so on Gol 737s. I think the chairs legs are different.
penang404@reddit
And after this incident, which was absolutely not their fault, you don't trust them anymore? 😂
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
I still do, but a little bit less! lol
jambox888@reddit
Could have said before, I just spent 2 weeks flying around Brazil with them lol
pac_cresco@reddit
Wait until you've read about TAM Airlines Flight 3054
SnooDogs1340@reddit
Yikes. Terrible accident :(
anonymoo5e77@reddit
With that logic don’t fly into most airports. They all have incidents, just not all of them make it to the media.
penang404@reddit
CGH is fine and probably safer than many airports this guy would fly to. But people on reddit will just say random shit because why not. It's inevitable.
rafaeldiasms@reddit
It's the second biggest airport in Brazil, more than 20 million passengers every year
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
I kinda dig landing and seeing the cellphone towers right by my window. You can also wave to people inside their apartments and workplaces.
Gabe_lima@reddit
It’s awful
kerenosabe@reddit
They gave him an instruction to turn right, but it all happened very quickly. And, as far as I can tell watching the original video (I'm not sure if the audio was perfectly in sync), the E195 was still far short of V1 when they got the first instruction to abort.
StuckinSuFu@reddit
Even knowing nothing bad actually happened... that was still stressful to watch the moment that shadow showed up.
photojourno@reddit
Also knowing what's all around Congonhas, this could have been a major catastrophe with Tenerife style numbers.
NoDoze-@reddit
But those planes dont hold enough people to reach the Tenerrife number.
iVoid@reddit
The ground potentially does.
penang404@reddit
It really doesn't.
TAM Flight 402 crashed after takeoff from CGH in 1996 with 5 ground fatalities.
Transbrasil 801 crashed in 1989 in a much more densely populated neighborhood in Guarulhos, and even then there were "only" 22 ground fatalities.
Assuming both acft have around 200-250 people on board in total, you would need an astronomical amount of ground fatalities that doesn't make sense to reach Tenerife levels.
tavareslima@reddit
737-800 holds around 180 and the 195E2 holds around 150
NoDoze-@reddit
Then that wouldn't be a tenerife scenario.
penang404@reddit
No, it doesn't.
TAM Flight 402 crashed nearby in 1996 with 5 ground fatalities, and Transbrasil 801 crashed in 1989 in a much more densely populated neighborhood in Guarulhos, and even then there were "only" 22 ground fatalities.
Assuming both acft have around 200-250 people on board in total, you would need an insane amount of ground fatalities to reach Tenerife levels, and that's just not feasible at all.
Sou_eu10@reddit
Impossible, a lot of problema occurred in the past, and never to reach Tenerife Numbers. Search about TAM 3054
josiasroig@reddit
Tenerife is in an island, Congonhas and Jabaquara are a huge, densely populated region, any crash will cause a huge disaster with the people that are passing by, working in the buildings or just living their lifes at their houses.
TAM 402 and 3054 Flights existed. The first felt into a housing complex at Luís Orsini de Castro Street, Jabaquara, taking the life of the crew, passengers and 4 people on the ground, while the latter crushed TAM Express facilities and a Shell gas station, causing a huge explosion that partially destroyed that building. In this case, 11 people in the building and a taxi driver at the gas station died. If the plane had crashed just a few meters earlier, it would have hit Washington Luís Avenue, a major, extremely busy thoroughfare, right in the middle of rush hour.
madman320@reddit (OP)
Photograph taken by a passenger aboard the Azul E195-E2 plane showing the GOL 737
acoolguy12334@reddit
Looks like a normal parallel takeoff at SFO
flightwatcher45@reddit
What a lucky photo, that's insane.
penelopiecruise@reddit
Looks like formation flying
NoDoze-@reddit
I'm sure they could hear the other plane.
flightwatcher45@reddit
Maybe on the radio lol, no way in the cabin.
NoDoze-@reddit
What!?! I've heard other planes from inside the cabin, especially ones at full throttle.
flightwatcher45@reddit
In the air parallel and that much separation and speed i truly can't imagine hearing anything and I've been in many widebody and narrow body formations
NoDoze-@reddit
Anytime I've been in the queue waiting to take off, holding for a plane to land or take off, and three times in the air when the plane had to make emergency maneuvers to avoid a collision, I've seen and clearly heard the other plane. I've even heard turbo props when they were near by. You weren't with me during those times, so you can't say I didn't hear them. LOL Maybe you should get your hearing checked...?
just_a_PAX@reddit
You've clearly never flown in a MD80/90 sitting up front. That would tell you all you need to know about hearing something outside the cabin during flight. Seems you forgot wind(air friction) exists and creates sounds.
2Slow2Nice@reddit
You okay, bud?
DadCelo@reddit
That first pic is crazy.
CGH is such a cool airport
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
CGH is (another) disaster just waiting to happen and no one will ever convince me otherwise.
That-Requirement-738@reddit
It certainly looks like it with all the city around it, especially on landing when it feel like you are 20 feet from the rooftops. But in reality its no more dangerous than the majority of city airports. In a catastrophic scenario (e.g. loosing both engine on take off), very few airports would have a happy outcome - miracle of the Hudson being one of the very few examples.
DadCelo@reddit
"waiting to happen" uhm....
Phonixrmf@reddit
Huh, I thought that airport looked familiar
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
Hence the (another)
Oh sure if you live in São Paulo, it's great. If you live nearby São Paulo, it's probably faster to go to Viracopos or Guarulhos.
Well...the SDU approach is probably one of the most sptecatular in the world...
Gabe_lima@reddit
That first photo is beautiful and frightening at the same time
Phonixrmf@reddit
Like a mushroom cloud
Chicago_Blackhawks@reddit
Insane picture
Xiaopang-Douk@reddit
I'd frame that picture and put it up on my bedroom wall if I was that passenger
mr5amcheckin@reddit
TLDR: ATC has no way of knowing what frequency you are on, or when you have switched to the next planned controller.
ATC has no way of knowing what frequency you have switched to, but they can infer you had made the switch too early if your next acknowledgment or transmission is on the departure frequency, vice the tower frequency. This assumption could be false, if they just didn’t hear the cancelled take-off. In North America standard airline practice with a clearance to “contact departure airborne” is to -not- switch from tower frequency until at least 1000 feet above ground level. So switching on the take off roll would be completely wrong, almost certainly in Portugal too for this very situation.
More likely though, is the Azul pilots just didn’t hear the cancellation of the take-off clearance. This can be because of poor radios, high density use of the frequency, task saturation or expectation bias. Pilots are people and cleared to take-off is a pretty big clearance to take back, and it happens almost never.
Finally, this situation is foreseen albeit rare. This is one reason why TCAS (collision avoidance) systems exist for aircraft in high density airspace. Errors can occur and in this instance independent transponders on the involved aircraft will have automatically interrogated each other and worked out a solution considering all factors, including proximity to the ground, far faster than ATC can come up with a plan and communicate it. While sub optimal I would suggest that the pilots did a good job correcting the errors that occurred, and the real cause for concern is quite likely the high amount of traffic in one place at one time, likely a controller being asked to cram in too many planes in at once. But that’s just conjecture.
scoobynoodles@reddit
was the TCAS triggered here? Scary
daygloviking@reddit
You’ll get a TA (Traffic Alert) but you won’t get an RA(Resolution Advisory) at low levels
doskkyh@reddit
At the end of the longer video, GOL crew reports that it indeed triggered TCAS to ATC.
zzzzzzzZZ7ZZzzzzzzz@reddit
Probably, but it doesn't warn as well at low altitudes.
atinyblip@reddit
TCAS does not trigger under 1,000ft AGL.
WankelFelix@reddit
daygloviking@reddit
We’re trained to abort up to V1if necessary
C2664@reddit
Another example of almost the entirety of all aviation accidents being caused by human (incredibly stupid) error.
k_dubious@reddit
What in the world was ATC even trying to do here? There was nowhere near enough space to fit that takeoff in front of the landing.
doskkyh@reddit
In the longer video, ATC mentions to the Gol crew that the Azul plane took longer than usual to take off and that's why they had to abort their landing. Azul then ignored the instruction to abort their take off.
phaederus@reddit
Another commenter who speaks Portugese noted that they never gave a stopping instruction, just a hold, and never even mentioned the call sign. Seems to be a 100% ATC mistake.
encyclopedist@reddit
This is incorrect. https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1t04lgk/comment/oj6v1vl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
phaederus@reddit
It's totally against ICAO standard; no call-sign, no "CANCEL TAKE-OFF" or "STOP IMMEDIATELY.
So I'd argue that no it it not incorrect that this was an ATC error.
megalopoutsa@reddit
"abort takeoff" is not clear enough whether or not it is standard phraseology?
phaederus@reddit
I know it seems minor, but pilots are trained to listen for standard phraseology. Repeated training turns into into a reaction. When you deviate from the standard, it gets ignored, especially if you're not hearing your call sign too or any urgency.
In this case it seems the pilots left frequency too early, so that obviously didn't help, but it could have been a contributing factor for sure.
WarmRoastedBean@reddit
It's almost never a single factor. Other people are saying that the pilots had already left the tower frequency which would be inappropriate if true.
The if true is important though because it sounds like you're making sweeping statements when we just don't know yet.
phaederus@reddit
Good point, that totally changes the story again. It's always swiss cheese 🫠
skippythemoonrock@reddit
GOL was throttling up for the go around and likely tightened up the gap while Azul rotated late but that was gonna be super tight either way. Very late on the turn for GOL when Azul failed to take the cancel as well.
ChrysisIgnita@reddit
I know. Why would the tower even clear take-off in the first place? Did he know the 737 was going around but think it was already clear of the runway?
TheAgedProfessor@reddit
Agreed. I don't get the intention. If there wasn't a go-around, we'd be looking at even a far worse situation.
ThatOneBr@reddit
"REPRODUCTION PROHIBITED" plastered in the middle of the screen as we sit here, watching it being reproduced lmao.
jawshoeaw@reddit
They’re asking you not to reproduce actually
GetawayDreamer87@reddit
jokes on them i can reproduce asactually
nicerob2011@reddit
You know what? I'm going to reproduce even harder!
Uninteresting_Brain@reddit
What is that supposed to mean?
nicerob2011@reddit
Uninteresting_Brain@reddit
nicerob2011@reddit
Man, it's been too long since I watched that show. Feel like an idiot for forgettin that was the next line
Uninteresting_Brain@reddit
I love this episode. When Michael tells Jim is amazing, and when Pam finds out is even better
Eggonioni@reddit
Good spirit of Shinzo Abe:
b-side61@reddit
Fuck that!
clarinetJWD@reddit
It's a good thing I don't speak Portuguese!
highvoltagelp@reddit
I'm actually reproducing this very moment as I'm watching this video
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
It's working, I guess. I don't ave any kids.
NorthEndD@reddit
yeah then they change their mind later and want grandkids and 2.1 something
Excelsior14@reddit
my brain didn't even register the text, I was looking right through it.
No-Watch-8044@reddit
It's brazil bruh, we just dont give a shit
BeachMonkey7777@reddit
Verdade!!!
Tripleberst@reddit
no copyright intended
atooraya@reddit
You wouldn’t download a plane, would you?!?!
Inner-Thought9665@reddit
Us: boos 👎🏽
Myfooty94@reddit
That looks like a close call. I've seen it happen in Sydney once too.
rotundrikishi@reddit
That was wild, that was really close.
How did it ever get to that point anyway
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
Link to the livestream, starting a few seconds before the Azul aircraft comes into view
For those that don't speak Portuguese, a curious thing.
Tower start at 11:33:20 (zulu): Azul inicie (azul start) and it cuts abruptly to three seconds later say azul 6408 mantenha a posição, aborte a decolagem. (Azul 6408 hold position, abort takeoff).
OtterVA@reddit
Seems like towers fault. They should have issued Go Around instructions to the aircraft on approach earlier, especially if the aircraft on the runways was previously cleared for takeoff and a switch departure.
yamthirdnow@reddit
Is it just me who thinks the 737 has a very low rate of climb?
N205FR@reddit
Don’t know why you are getting downvoted. That absolutely is a shallow climb rate. I suspect they hit the toga button once which triggers the shallow go around, not that it’s their fault at all, GOL is the one without any blame here.
Thurak0@reddit
There is a visible pitch up at 0:22 here. Maybe a little late, but perhaps they needed/wanted the plane to be faster. I could imagine if tower cut it relatively close (takeoff before landing), that they slowed down the approaching plane as much as they were allowed to.
Mitchz95@reddit
Looks like a repeat of that FedEx/Southwest incident in Austin in 2023.
welguisz@reddit
One big difference: it was foggy that morning and a Cat 3 ILS landing for the FedEx plane
Asianchansation@reddit
Heard a few close calls like this in US. ATC should intervene but I know during a go around, pilots are quite busy.
jimmy_bamboozy@reddit
That's me playing Tower Simulator 3. Just hand em over to departure frequency and not your problem anymore 🤣
post-explainer@reddit
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