Largish pre-motor traditional single handed sailboats?
Posted by WolflingWolfling@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 84 comments
I have a little traditional Dutch "punter" (around 19ft long, sprit main, botterfok/genoa headsail) which I learned to comfortably sail, row, and/or punt by myself, and I know of people sailing somewhat larger ones singlehandedly in a similar way, and it had me wondering: does anyone know of any old style sailing vessels without motors that would have been significantly larger or at least more seaworthy, but could still have been sailed and docked/moored etc. by a single person without much trouble?
Pic is of my own little boat.
SailToAndromeda@reddit
I love your boat, I just wanted to come in and say that. I unfortunately don't have an answer for your question, hopefully someone does.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
I love my boat too! My question was mostly out of curiosity, as I have no intention of getting rid if this cute little boat!
WolfThawra@reddit
You better not. That looks like so much fun. And just a beautiful boat tbh.
chrisxls@reddit
I disagree. OP should get rid of this boat. OP should do that by shipping it to the United States. I will provide OP an address...
(Looks so awesome!)
WolfThawra@reddit
No I can provide an address in the UK, much closer, much cheaper to get rid of it that way!
Pomme-M@reddit
But wait, I’m way ahead of you two..you see, I invited OP to visit us in the States many months ago ;) do form a queue to my aft, please
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
LOL this is actually true as well!
Pomme-M@reddit
All in the spirit of fuN, but it’s nice to think how many ports will welcome you ; )
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
It is a lot of fun indeed! I've only sailed it on a small lake (around 2km long, half a km wide or so, hardly any other trafgic there) at wind speeds up to the lower end of 4bft, but I'm greatly enjoying it so far! I didn't have any previous sailing experience when I got this one, nor any lessons ever, but it's proven to be a lovely and very forgiving "learner boat".
WolfThawra@reddit
That sounds like a great environment to learn in though, jealous 😃
tench745@reddit
Look up Joshua Slocum and his boat the Spray.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Thanks, I will!
Pomme-M@reddit
The Spray is the subject of Slocums book, one of the best known sailing biographies
its called
Sailing Alone Around the World,
which is just what Slocum did.
You might also enjoy Francis Chichester’s
The Lonely Sea and the Sky
thanks again for another wonderful post!
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
I'll look those up too! I also really enjoyed that Jan de Hartog book about a kid being taken in a by a botter skipper, and back in the day, The Old Man And The Sea (even though I seem to remember his boat didn't have sails).
Pomme-M@reddit
As a novel, The Lost Sea remains my favorite, especially for their in port activities.. I think you’ll find it’s hard to top Slocum, though.
Single_Ad_5294@reddit
How necessary is the sprit? I’ve been researching and designing a small dinghy for months, and this is very close to what I want to build. Nvm I see there’s no gaff or boom so it makes sense.
Beautiful lil boat.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
The sprit allows for a bigger mainsail surface on a very short and light mast with very primitive rigging. There are also sprit sails that still attach to a boom. I actually have a boom for this one too, but I like sailing without it.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
No blocks involved. Sail is sort of rolled up and tied to the mast. If I need to pass under a bridge, I take the sprit out, lift the mast + sail out of the bench, and lay it all down in the boat. I've also taken the mast out with the sprit still in place, but it's easier to take the sprit out first.
There's only a single block near the top of the mast, to raise my "botterfok" (basically a 120% genoa avant la lettre).
vulkoriscoming@reddit
The pilot schooners in New England were designed to be single handed on the way back after dropping the pilot off with ship coming into port.
On the way out the pilot and "the boy" would double hand the boat. The pilot would get off to pilot a ship into the harbor and "the boy" would take the schooner back into the harbor on his own. These schooners were 35-45 feet long with two masts and were very fast since the first pilot to the ship got the job.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
That's a great bit of history there!
Cptawesome23@reddit
The limit would be how you maneuver in port. If you can’t comfortable paddle it around, how you gonna park it?
I’m currently designing a collapsible rigid wing sail that uses sensors to automatically adjust the wing attitude and camber to provide ideal thrust at all times. I feel like this would solve the problem your theorizing about single handing larger boats.
My goal is to create a prototype small cargo Caribbean runner. Something that can take a motorcycle or two to the Caribbean and back on nothing but autopilot and solar power.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
In calm waters in a shallowish port, a punting pole can work wonders as well, as long as the boat isn't too heavy.
Raneynickelfire@reddit
Gaff main* tou don't have a sprit main.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Who was it that said "Don't correct somebody on something you yourself don't know" less than a day ago?
;-)
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Have you seen my mainsail? That is 100% a sprit main. No gaff, and I don't even have the boom in either!
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Have you seen my mainsail? That is 100% a sprit main. No gaff, and I don't even have the boom in either!
It doesn't really get any sprittier than my main. The sprit starts all the way under the tack, and stretches to the peak of the sail. The sail is held up by nothing but the end of the sprit at the peak, and an iron ring around the mast at the throat.
achi2019@reddit
If you look at my page I've got Esmeralda, from 1897. She's just over 30ft, Certainly pre-motor and and absolutely a breeze to handle on your own, in and out of port. She weighs about 3.2 tons.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
She's lovely!
steamer_bach@reddit
Dacht al, ik herkende de soort boot, mooie Punter, absoluut een pracht
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Ben er ook superblij mee!
Crazy_Wild_Optimist@reddit
A J24 is easy to sail alone and without power. I used to do the same with a Hobbie 33... not as easy. For something more traditional, there is the folkboat.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
I completely forgot about the folkboat!
Accomplished_Age_699@reddit
Pilot cutters?
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
I just looked them up a few minutes ago, some of those are absolutely gorgeous!
Accomplished_Age_699@reddit
Truly. Kindly Light is a work of art.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
It is!
Accomplished_Age_699@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5MhJKXAayQ
haight6716@reddit
The new England cat boats were work boats before motors. They could be pretty big - 30' or so. Beamy, stable, short retractable centerboard, gaf rigged with the mast stepped right forward, no stays. The rig was out of the way so you could stand to e.g. haul lobster pots, fish, etc. The centerboard pivots automatically if it hits bottom.
Areys pond still builds them.
https://areyspondboatyard.com/
stealy91@reddit
They have these at MIT sailing, I’m looking forward to learning to sail them this summer!
blackcatunderaladder@reddit
Wow, they're pretty.
Seschwa@reddit
It would be REAL COOL if you wanted to PM some photos of all parts of that boat. I think it looks real, real neat, and Id like to try building one. Have been weighing a small build for a whIle and floating various blueprints but not super happy with any of them.
Cool looking boat!
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Please PM me over the next coulle of weeks to remind me!
Wizard_with_a_Pipe@reddit
Looks like a Bolger design with those leeboards and hard chines.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
The basic dutch punter profile dates back to at least the 16th century, its rowed, leeboard-less versions even further back. Very similar boats made up of one to three planks for the flat bottom, a beam fore and aft, and wide boards for the sides can be found all over the world. Simple, but very effective, apparently!
KeepShtumMum@reddit
Theoretically a Galway Hooker can be sailed single handed, if you rig her for it. Hookers are similar to what already have, but super-sized, with 3 sails. They are a heavy boat and not designed for single handed, but not impossible. Maybe!
The smaller Hookers like the Gleoiteog are more feasible.
Hookers were made for Galway Bay, where the weather can be a little challenging at times.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Wow, those are huge! Beautiful boats though!
KeepShtumMum@reddit
Yeah. More than a bit of momentum when they get going. They race them sometimes. It's like watching frisky walrus on the beach.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Hahaha I can imagine!
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Reminds me of a story about a girl with a slight stammer tentatively trying to inform her dad:
Da, you kknknow when you thththought I was ststsstudying all those months? I'm afraid I was l-l-lying to you all this time... I've really become a prprpro–
At first, the old man nearly had a heart attack. Then when the word was finally out, he gasped: "Thank Fook for that, I thought you was gonna say you were a protestant!"
I'll get me coat.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
I think we need an expression: tough like a Galway hooker!
Dioxid3@reddit
I tried looking up what that wide ”paddle” on the side is and what’s it used for, but couldn’t find. It’s a beautiful boat! https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/articles/bbwadvii/index.htm
AikiFarang@reddit
It's called a leeboard and is used as a kind of liftable keel on boats designed for shallow waters. There's one on each side. Downwind both are raised, but on other courses the board on the lee side is lowered like a center board.
Dioxid3@reddit
Cool, thank you both for answering. Makes perfect sense now that you explained it but somehow it didn’t occur to me. I don’t sail… yet :’)
u/wolflingwolfling
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
I wish I could be this concise! ❤️
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
It's a "leeboard", it functions as a sort of substitute keel on windward and beam reaches. You lower the leeward leeboard into the water, and with the wind pushing the sail from the weather side, the leeboard provides the necessary "lift" in the water to prevent drift. Leeboards are often used on flat bottomed (and some round bottomed) boats instead of a keel, to allow the boats to enter ridiculously shallow waters, while still being anle to function as a proper sailboat.
poser8@reddit
Dutch!
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
It is indeed. I should spam it to r/geopuzzle!
DwayneGretzky306@reddit
Amazing boat.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Thank you! I'm in love with it myself!
real_grown_ass_man@reddit
Most flatbottom style fishing vessels were traditionally seaworthy (botters, schokkers, lemster aal, etc.) but most have been fitted with an engine during the last century. Most types also require a crew larger than one, although a small staverse jol might be doable on your own, and a lot more seaworthy than your punter.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Ah yes, good point about the Staverse jol! Botters, Schokkers, and Lemsteraken would require at least 2 people I think, most seem to have been sailed by three men, or two men and a boy. I think even a Wieringer bol / Enkhuizer bol / Vollenhovense bol requires 2 people if you don't have an engine. I suppose "spekbakken" (steel hulled schouwen) could be confidently sailed by a single skilled person as well, and they're deemed to be fairly "seaworthy" compared to my boat too.
Borgh@reddit
Yeah, I've sailed skûtsjes with two people. It's a absolute (bleep) to do and means a lot of work for both helmsman and the everything-elseman but is doable.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
That sounds like absolute madness, workload-wise! :-)
timpeduiker@reddit
I sail my two masted hoogaars regularly alone. It does have an engine. Against the wind on rivers is not so fun but as soon as there is a little bit more space it's very doable. It does cost you a little bit of performance.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Hoogaarzen are gorgeous boats too! They're almost like the bigger, sturdier, more seaworthy brothers of my little boat :-)
timpeduiker@reddit
Now that you mention it, the lines are fairly similar. Something fairly interesting by the way. Lelievletten are ridiculously seaworthy for their size dude to the very round bows. I have sailed on water that I wouldn't do with any other boat of 5.5 meters.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
The fishermen of the city of Kampen used to take pretty much the exact model "Kamper punter" as I have out on the Zuyderzee at times before it was closed of, the only real difference was that they often had a live well on board which provided some additional stability.
A slightly bigger version existed as well, with more freeboard, which they took out to sea under all normal conditions, and if necessary even in stormy weather. When the weather was too rough for the much heavier botters, "zeepunters" would still go out. That bigger version was also used quite frequently for rescue operations, as it could handle both heavy weather and very shallow grounds.
The zeepunter was just over 7 meters long and around 2 meters wide. Mine's quite a bit smaller: just over 6 meters long, and 165cm wide, typical for the "Kamper punter". But its center of resistance and center of gravity are fairly low, and its bow handles waves really well.
It cuts into oncoming waves at first, and then the widening bow is sort of "lifted through" the wave, rather than riding on top of it or plunging further into it. I find it very comfortable to sail, but I have no experience with other small boats (other than rowing or motoring), so I have little to compare it to.
timpeduiker@reddit
Very cool bit of history, thank you. I know that most fishing boats where designed to be able to handle a lot of weather because you never know what you might need to survive. Have you taken your boat out on rougher weather/bigger water?
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Nothing over 4bft, and I've only been out on the Sloterplas, a small but relatively deep lake on the Western outskirts of Amsterdam. I doubt the mast and sprit would withstand anything over 4bft, as those aren't in as good a condition as the rest of the boat seems to be. 3bft seems to be the pretty much "goldylocks zone" for this boat, depending on where the wind comes from.
Due to how narrow the lake is in some parts, and due to how irregular and shifty the surrounding area is, even the higher end of 3bft can take quite a bit of effort to cruise into at times in certain parts of the lake.
I'd love to try the Gouwzee or the Markermeer in fair weather, to see how this little tub fares when it has some space, and when the winds don't change as drastically in direction and strenght every 15 meters :-)
timpeduiker@reddit
Yeah sailing with some form of consistent wind is a lot different (also a little less interesting) (I learned to sail in a city) My experience is that from 4bft and up, flat bottom boats finally come to life. Because they are usually fairly heavy for their rig size/weight. So it might be worth experimenting. Oh and some random knowledge if you start to glue some new pieces of wood in to the spars you need at least a 10 to one taper on both ends to distribute the force over the glue line.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the advice!
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Before I bought this boat, I was also considering lelievletten, zalmdrijvers (aka zalmschouwen), the aforementioned zeepunters, and a "Hollandse boot". Ultimately, I fell in love with this one, and luckily it's in good condition, as I basically bought it at first sight!
Borgh@reddit
It probably helps a lot that the pre-steel skûtsje was a lot smaller than the ones currently floating about Friesland.
And you absolutely need the kind with winches to hoist and good reduction on the leeboard-lines
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Ahh that makes more sense then. Were the older ones similar the Frisian visaken from before the Lemster aak days?
Borgh@reddit
I don't know those specifically but think 10-14m and with a 10-20 ton max load.
real_grown_ass_man@reddit
I never heard the term "spekbak", great piece of history! But on those i guess you also have to manage the leeboards on top of the backstays and the sheets.. easy to screw up and get yourself in a pickle. not to mention the sheer mass when manouvering in port... i've seen plenty people managing larger ships on their own, but always on engine power, never sail alone.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
I have leeboards on my punter too. But it's just leeboards, mainsheet, and jibsheet on this one. And the tiller in tight manoeuvres, like tacks in unfavourable winds. Sometimes I forget to pull up the board on luff for a while after a sharp tack, but in the kind of condtions I sail in, that hasn't had any disastrous consequences so far :-)
chrisxls@reddit
So, here is a custom modern boat created here in the SF Bay. Probably inspired by all of the above. It will reset your expectations about what kind of rig one person can handle, since he sails it alone 😉
https://www.reddit.com/r/sailing/comments/1rii69p/comment/o88op2d/
jepper65@reddit
Bristol channel pilot cutters can be singlehanded, but that isn't for the faint of heart. Cornish crabbers, falmouth quay punts and other south english work boats can be singlehanded if you're skilled. A lot of smaller fishing vessel from denmark can be singlehanded.
WolflingWolfling@reddit (OP)
Thanks!
Vicker3000@reddit
Joshua Slocum's Spray was 36 feet. Sail only, and he sailed her around the world singlehandedly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_(sailing_vessel)
KK7ORD@reddit
Slocum saild the spray single handed, but he did say most sailors couldn't handle it alone.
He claimed to never use the tiller, and just trimmed it about
MaybeFiction@reddit
Another way to phrase this question is "What would be the closest thing available today to the boat Edmond Dantes sailed in The Count of Monte Cristo?"
In that book, Dumas talked about single handing as one of the particular goals of the craft, and that the buyer fairly easily spotted the boat to buy from a Genoese yacht maker basically just by wandering around the harbor. But the book gives insufficient detail to match it to a real boat.
The next "old boat from literature" that jumps to mind is probably the most cliche, the Spray, Joshua Slocum's 36 foot sailboat. It's still not clear to me after reading the book exactly what design available today would most closely match the Spray, but I am content with what I settled for, which generically is simply "a 36 foot full-keel cutter." It's not of vintage construction or design in the "age of sail" sense - it's fiberglass and metal rather than wood and fiber - but from my perspective the spirit of the challenge is met.
ppitm@reddit
The stereotypical coasting schooner in New England was run by a crew of 'man, boy and dog,' even when 70+ feet long.
No engine, just a lot of hard work and consummate skill.