New Cars Sold In America Will Be Actively Watching And Judging You And May Decide To Not Let You Drive - The Autopian
Posted by KeyboardGunner@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 299 comments
EZKTurbo@reddit
I never thought cars would become an issue of civil rights and Ai surveillance
The0verlord-@reddit
You must be incredibly naive then
jawknee530i@reddit
Seriously. Just look at back when seatbelts were required and the fights over that. Cars are a central part of American life for better or worse and that means societal fights will involve them.
Humpdat@reddit
I agree with everything you said.
But I think this is far more encroaching than a seat belt
nekmatu@reddit
This is so much different than seat belts. Not even on the same page.
The car also still works without the seat belt plugged in.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
My Civic won't disengage the parking brake if the seatbelt isn't fastened.
trivialempire@reddit
Don’t engage the parking brake.
Problem solved.
nekmatu@reddit
That’s pretty dumb.
Vazhox@reddit
Bless your heart child
Vazhox@reddit
Mhm. Stop signs, stop lights. Everyone obeys the laws one way or another. We have all been primed to obey and just let the government do what they want.
Vazhox@reddit
Put to much faith in the government, they did.
Constant_Chip_1508@reddit
I’ve been scared of my car ever since I watched Christine
Vague_Disclosure@reddit
I remember this being a micro case study in my business ethics class in college back in like 2011. It wasn't AI specific but it was about mandatory breathalyzers in new vehicles and data tracking for insurance companies. So this shit has been going on for at least 15 years.
EZKTurbo@reddit
Lmao, so you can't possibly imagine how this could go wrong in any scenario?? Lol, you probably stayed home instead of voting last time
Polak12@reddit
I’m pretty sure they called you naive on account of you saying you didn’t see this coming, not that it isn’t a civil rights and AI surveillance issue.
mastawyrm@reddit
Your two comments here contradict each other, what are you a bot?
triggered__Lefty@reddit
thanks to flock this is already a reality.
smilysmilysmooch@reddit
There is an anime called ex-driver from 2000 that is all about a future special police force tasked with shutting down AI taxis that run out of control by shooting out their sensors from their classic cars. Mediocre show overall but the world they built was pretty great Sci fi.
Greengiant304@reddit
Your car probably knows if you gained weight before you do.
wpm@reddit
Cars have been a civil rights and surveillance issue for at least a century.
holymacaronibatman@reddit
This is gonna get pushed out. The NHTSA issued a report recently how the technology isn't anywhere close to ready thankfully. Get a reliable car soon before this shit gets thrown in
Owe-No@reddit
It doesn't matter how ready the technology is, this should never be acceptable.
rental_car_fast@reddit
I think I'll take the money I would spend on a car and just get like 3 or 4 more motorcycles.
MichiganGeezer@reddit
Reliable AND rebuildable.
ChirpyRaven@reddit
I know these articles/headlines are interested in one thing (getting clicks), but my goodness do we have to take every single thing that raises concern and immediately proclaim it to be a definite thing that is ending the world as we know it?
They are looking into technology to detect impaired drivers, yes. The concept is there. But even the NHTSA has said it is not possible to do and they do not support this with current technology. Relevant passage from their report to congress just 2 months ago:
Owe-No@reddit
I don't care if it has a 100% accuracy rate. This is dystopian government overreach and is not acceptable.
BetterThanAFoon@reddit
Have you not been paying attention for the last decade? Any possible vector for collecting data, even for the purest of reasons are going to be twisted by our capitalism based society and will be monetized.
It doesn't take long. Anyone with free nav software collects data on your movement patterns to optimize advertising used on you. Your smart and connected behivles collect information on you to sell to insurance companies. Your smartphone collects an incredible amount of information to optimize advertising. Social media collects information on you and your interactions with apps and the Internet so optimize algorithms for manipulation.
No thanks. Without a comprehensive data privacy protections from surveillance from companies I don't want any new technology like this.
Hell just today I read that meta workers were able to access meta glasses feeds from users and even saw nudity and sex.
samdtho@reddit
We should be concerned. Being unconcerned is how we end up in a dystopian surveillance state and it becomes too late to back out.
ChirpyRaven@reddit
I didn't say "don't worry about this", though.
crozone@reddit
You're downplaying the alarm as if that will ever help anything. We need backlash.
Redey1290@reddit
At no point did they say “do not be concerned.” They’re saying the article is sensationalist and you need to read the law yourself. Which I did, and it sucks (in a good way for us at least).
It’s only 4 pages long and gives the Secretary of Transportation an easy out if they can’t find a suitable solution within the time frame given, which is that they have to write a report on why that is. That’s it. I imagine they’ll happily stall with that until somebody notices, and even then it’ll probably still be a fight since the NHTSA doesn’t believe it’s ready for prime time.
techtimee@reddit
So the slippery slope is real?
GermanCommentGamer@reddit
Always has been
andrewia@reddit
Yep, I've been repeating a similar comment to submissions of a similar alarmist article from Yahoo. NHTSA's reports are a polite bureaucratic way of saying they're not doing it anytime soon because it will be too impractical.
carsarefuntodrive@reddit
I'm going to need "Five 9s" of accuracy, thank you. 99.999%. That's 5 minutes and 15 seconds of error per year.
AndroidUser37@reddit
The problem is, isn't this technology mandated according to the new infrastructure bill? What's going to happen when 2027 rolls around?
whywhywhywhywhynot@reddit
no it's not. it is mandated that the NHTSA either implement it as a requirement or report to congress on why it is not doing it. Every timeline written into the law has an exemption merely requiring them to report on the status to congress. the law is written in plain understandable english and while I appreciate people freaking out the fact that this stupidly was actually written into law, at least as currently written the NHTSA can stall indefinitely as long as they write nice little reports about it.
WyrdHarper@reddit
I appreciate them highlighting how even a relatively low percent error still impacts millions of drives. 99.9% is still not great at that magnitude, but it looks great on a PR stunt.
InfraredDiarrhea@reddit
Suggested reading topic for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel%27s_nose
whatsapprocky@reddit
Cars have peaked around 2015-2017 anyways. We had a good run
vhalember@reddit
Yep.
I can afford new cars, but have ZERO interest in them. I don't want touchscreens as big as the moon, I don't want much of this tech (and I work in tech), and I certainly don't want this future false positive nightmare "anti-impairment system."
Maybe I'm "old man yells at a cloud," but I see nothing these current cars do better than those of 5-10 years ago.
dayvieee@reddit
I’m kind of in the same boat, I do want a newer Cayenne but my current one performs so well for being 10 years old and counting. I do want some newer tech but it’s not a make or break it scenario.
franksandbeans911@reddit
Hang on to it, especially if it's paid off. Replace some tired suspension pieces, maybe new tires. It doesn't take much to refresh a tired vehicle but nobody spends the time.
dayvieee@reddit
Yeah, I just replace stuff as I go or if needed. My high tone horn has been out for almost 4 years but that’s not a necessary repair. I can hear the motor going out for my active grille shutters but that’s just a time intensive fix. So far nothing mechanical yet, am on my 3rd sets of tires though.
franksandbeans911@reddit
Not hard to burn through tires. The factory tires *generally* are cheap ones just to keep the car off the ground. I burn through that first set in no time, or until I get that first screw on the road through the area too close to the sidewall to patch, whichever comes first. Busy cities are full of rogue screws just waiting for any tire.
Halofieldfan@reddit
Sometimes I wish I had the older Veloster N, fairly similar to my current car but less tech overall (I mean it’s still got the screen but it’s got none of the safety stuff.) plus they’re all 6 speeds.
franksandbeans911@reddit
I'll join you in yelling at that cloud, if we can include subscription-based functions like heated seats for rent.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
Bruh, you mean the 90s or early 2000s.
ZeroWashu@reddit
Sorry, but there is zero chance I would ever go back to an ICE given the performance and smoothness of EV drive trains. They are just too fun to drive and have far more performance that most people will ever use. ICE may have peaked by EVs took off and are not looking back.
TristanwithaT@reddit
No way, this is straight up nostalgia with rose colored glasses talking
crozone@reddit
Late 90ss luxury cars already had all of the important safety features of modern cars like full ESC. Also, no touch screens, capacitive buttons, or distracting mobile phone integration bullshit.
garden_speech@reddit
Lol, but not the features that would let them pass modern crash testing standards like... the right size crumple zones. Even some cars made after 2010 were failing the overlap frontal crash test
crozone@reddit
High end late 90s and early 2000s cars absolutely pass modern crumple zone tests. Ever seen a classic Volvo crash test?
The reason they lose stars on modern crash tests is that they don't have features like automatic braking, or pedestrian safety features. Stuff that you can probably do without if you don't use a phone while driving.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
All the most popular cars are from the 90s and the 2000s. And it's not only nostalgia. Said cars were popular even in their own time, and their popularity held through the decades. Noone is drooling over modern cars the way people were and are still drooling over 90s and 2000s cars.
Kenneth441@reddit
Sorry but newer cars are better in every way thats not subjective like looks and driving feel. Theyre faster, safer, more efficient, and more comfortable. The love for cars such as the Mk IV Supra is actually just nostalgia. If these cars were so popular and drooled over even during their time, they wouldve made and sold a lot more.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
Love how you completely missed the part where I said it's NOT nostalgia, since those cars were loved to hell even in their own time already.
And saying they are objectively better in every way is just a fucking lie, lol. I will admit they are more efficient and safer in a crash, and various asists can come in handy.
But they are fucking not more comfortable, since manufacturers opt for cheaper materials and the insides are cramped. Safety also suffers somewhat due to worse visibility in modern cars and everything being a touchscreen. Repairability is a hellhole as well, and cheap materials used in critical components will show their fangs in the long run.
parkerlewis@reddit
I have just accepted the fact that I will never own a car as good as my 2005 Saab 9-2x ever again. 5MT, 2.0T, AWD + LSD wagon for $20k.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
I mean... you can just buy a good old car again?
Alternative_Ear5542@reddit
Getting expensive and hard to maintain. Lot less parts are even available as time goes on.
triggered__Lefty@reddit
is it really more expensive than 30-40k every 5ish years?
Dinosbacsi@reddit
That's true. But I daily a car from '84. Compared to that a 2005 car must be a dream, parts wise, lol
Legend13CNS@reddit
I think it depends a lot on not just the car, like the other guy said, but the owner group of the cars. My Skyline and FR-S will have parts until the heat death of the universe because people love those cars. If push came to shove I could rebuild those entire cars from a bare chassis with only aftermarket parts. My GF has a 15 year old Volvo V70 3.2 and despite Volvos having a cult following and aftermarket support there's basically no parts for the non performance models. There's stuff on that car that just straight up isn't available unless it could be pulled off a junkyard car (which isn't that cheap anymore) or we get lucky on eBay. There's a way higher chance than I'd like that the V70 is going to the junkyard itself if anything happens that isn't a consumable or service item.
Alternative_Ear5542@reddit
Really depends on the car and how big the market for it was/is. I'm pretty sure you can get parts all day for like, a 1993 Honda Civic, but if you need parts for say... a 1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD it might get a bit trickier.
Fozzymandius@reddit
Luckily that Saab is literally just a WRX wagon so there is actually an extremely good selection of parts still available for it to this day.
franksandbeans911@reddit
Imagine a few people smiling smugly in VW Beetle. Parts for decades, simple, but none of the safety or power/efficiency. And some with no AC, they call it rolling down a window. It'd be the cockroach of cars after an EMP.
Dionegro__@reddit
It's called a Honda Fit
huffalump1@reddit
Discontinued in the US since 2020 :(
PedanticBoutBaseball@reddit
K-swap it, and then you got a fun, fast go kart that can fit some 2x4s, mulch, bead board, uncut kilos of columbian nose sugar etc.
HerefortheTuna@reddit
I loved mine too
Fozzymandius@reddit
Ah the Saabaru. I have its performance twin in the garage still. It is time to start replacing bits on it.
juwyro@reddit
Same! Maybe I'm at the point of life where I don't have the urge to get another car. It's reliable and does 99% of what I need to do.
mustangfan12@reddit
2010s cars are much nicer than 2000s cars
crozone@reddit
Only on the low end
Dinosbacsi@reddit
No, lol
crozone@reddit
Yeah nothing with a shitty touch screen with no buttons and no CD player may enter the heaven of peak
svideo@reddit
100hp engines and slushbox autos? no thanks man.
ttthrowaway987@reddit
MKIV Supra, LS1 GM coupes, VW VR6, Skylines, Viper, CTR, ITR....technically even the S2000 went on sale in 1999.
shawizkid@reddit
As a former ls1 Camaro SS owner I can assure you, I’d be much happier in a 6th gen maro, or c7 for that matter. Or ats-v. Or a c6 vette. Or any cts-v.
It was a cool car for young me, but I’d never consider buying another one today.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
I said 90s, not 70s bruh.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
Learn to drive a manual bruh. And 100hp was low end even in the 90s, unless you got a 1.2 ecoshitbox. Proper cars were already over 120hp, plus much lower in weight than current cars.
ttthrowaway987@reddit
Yep. Late 90s to early 2000s was definitely peak. Kid is crazy with that 2015+ talk.
TiaXhosa@reddit
No way, current ICEs are peak. Stock 4bangers are pushing out numbers over 350hp.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
Engines, yes. Cars, no.
well_thats_obvious@reddit
Not only are they more powerful, but more efficient too. Engine R&D didn’t stop in the 2000s
Jethro_Tell@reddit
There's a diminishing return to HP though. It's nice to have passing on the highway but I can do with a little less if it means I have a physical knobs and buttons for my climate control.
TiaXhosa@reddit
You can find plenty of cars made in the mid-late 2010s with physical buttons
Jethro_Tell@reddit
Sure, I guess the nuance is in your definition of current. I'm plenty happy with vehicles up to about 15-18 or so. Then it starts to take a turn.
Porencephaly@reddit
That doesn't mean the car is peak.
MetaTrombonist@reddit
You misspelled 1965.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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iroll20s@reddit
Depends what you're looking for. 2015-2018 were the last cars before everything started dialing home and the no buttons craze took off. I appreciate the feel of a hydraulic rack and real brakes, but power and quality of auto transmissions was on a steep upward trajectory. I'd 1000% rather own an auto from 2018 than 2000.
ChirpyRaven@reddit
Every 10 years people say this about the previous decade lol
rhunter99@reddit
A 2012 model is about as much tech as I want in a car
StrangeSmellz@reddit
Like the 2016 Ecoboost engine
kon---@reddit
Don't buy the marketing bullshit and, do not buy the car.
That's all consumers have to do. Do not buy the car.
MichiganGeezer@reddit
Eventually that could mean you don't buy ANY cars.
Maybe some smart person could insert overriding software that'll make the computer accept everything?
PeculiarAlize@reddit
The great thing about cars is they're made to be serviced and repaired. Maybe some smart person could fix an old car so you dont have to buy the new mass produced consumer grade bullshit that car manufacturers are pushing so hard
Vague_Disclosure@reddit
They'll just make it so that any tampering will brick your $40K+ asset. This also leads back to how much do you actually own your own vehicle and right to repair.
Responsible-Meringue@reddit
Wonder how that plays out since rtr is a state based legislation. Will we get an ultrafragmented market, and the car will be geolocked to a state. Lol Fuck this dystopia
tiagojpg@reddit
At some point, with so many different laws and even cultural differences from state to state, there’s bound to be talks of creating whole different countries right?
Drzhivago138@reddit
See, they tried that about 165 years ago...
tiagojpg@reddit
Do it again!
jameson71@reddit
Judging by current events, manufacturers will simply bribe the president to pass federal legislation
Vague_Disclosure@reddit
Regulatory capture and corporate lobbying is hardly a current precedent
jameson71@reddit
No but private meetings with the president that lead to specific carve outs for specific companies is a new addition to the systemic corruption.
twiddlingbits@reddit
That’s not new either, You obviously haven’t had many trips around the sun yet.
MissplacedLandmine@reddit
What a dumb thing to say as if it lends to your stance.
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jameson71@reddit
Lol
garden_speech@reddit
Bruh that shit has been going on since before our grandparents time lol, one of the examples so well known that the Federal Reserve has published a piece on it dates back to 1907 lmfao.
Facts_pls@reddit
I don't think they need to give them a bribe.
A fake award given publicly is enough.
'Stellantis peace prize' anyone?
Drzhivago138@reddit
All awards are made up.
Hustletron@reddit
I have this feeling that OEMs were pushing for this creeper nanny bs BECAUSE they want to maintain control over cars that should be as easy to mod as attaching a USB drive.
Responsible-Meringue@reddit
Primary reason you can't remap cars in any meaningful way is fleet emissions requirements, followed by safety (both physical & digital, see dodge & kia headlights theft scandals).
Would be happy if these bullshit pops n bangs tunes disappeared tho.
The answer is always money. they collect creeper data they sell said data (notice how new legislation has no provision on data protection, but EU has GDPR so non of this BS is applicable). Which has me hopeful there will be a euro tune you can flash that disables the nannies outright under the privacy law. Or I'll incorporate as an EU citizen and be protected on the backend (somehow)
trippwwa45@reddit
Forgive me but are the new ecu's that tight? BMW's seem like a simple tune unlocks a good chuck of power. Maybe those aren't full remaps.
triggered__Lefty@reddit
I think it took hptuners over a year to unlock the c8 zr1, and they're still dealing with OEM limits.
davewritescode@reddit
BMWs used to be wide open and lots of idiot owners were tuning their cars, blowing them up and even getting warranty work done for years. BMW started cracking down around 2020 and started automatically flagging cars that had unauthorized tunes the minute they were plugged into dealership diagnostics.
Up until this last year 2021+ cars needed you to physically remove the ECU and send it to a company called Femto in Europe to unlock the ECU.
So yeah BMW has very recently made it very hard to tune thanks to idiots blowing up 335s and M3s
trippwwa45@reddit
Thank you for the knowledge.
mfhorn06@reddit
They also making the buck selling consumer's data to the brokers so your insurance company can buy it from them.
RichieJ86@reddit
Seriously. It's sad, because 'we' (and by we, I mean general society) keeps buying into it for the sake of "comfort and convenience".
I haven't owned a car older than 2017 for my entire adult life. Which isn't to say I won't buy one, but if it does involve THIS, I certainly won't, or will, at least, avoid any company that tries it.
standardtissue@reddit
The DMCA literally criminalized circumvention even for research purposes. It's recognized as mostly terrible legislation that ushered in the era of "everything is a subscription." I really can't see any legislation to the effect of "we decide if your vehicle operates" not having the same bad, widespread repercussions especially given America's anti-consumer legislative environment. I just don't see how this won't become "We mistakenly thought you were late on your windshield wiper fluid platinum package monthly subscription so your car doesn't work now"
GGCRX@reddit
I'm guessing the opposite. The law does not forbid the owner from disabling the system, only professionals.
So they put the system on its own circuit, and the owner pulls the fuse. Done.
triggered__Lefty@reddit
except with this type of system that reports back to the OEM, they would know that you disabled it.
GGCRX@reddit
So? As the law stands, that's not illegal.
This new system literally adds one data point of personal information to the hundreds modern cars are already transmitting about their owners - whether they're currently drunk or not. Everything else is already being sent.
Jethro_Tell@reddit
but, you know these guys are gonna get busted selling data all the time. This didn't go through against the will of companies that are always looking to make a free dollar without offering anything of substance to the consumer.
It will be difficult to remove for a lay person and easy to hack if I had to guess.
GGCRX@reddit
Selling what data?
The car is already logging your driving behavior, destinations, etc and cross-referencing those destinations to determine where you go and what your interests are. Some are recording everything you say if they have voice-activated infotainment. They're linking that to your name, which then gets linked to your internet history.
The only new data this system will collect is if you're drunk *right now*. That's it. Everything else about you is already being collected and sold, and if you happen to have a drinking problem I guarantee that's known whether there's a breath sniffer present or not.
Jmauld@reddit
Now they know who is riding with you.
Car-face@reddit
Your phone already broadcast that to every large corporation on the planet.
Jmauld@reddit
Yes, but I can leave my phone at home when I’m doing my next heist.
MichiganGeezer@reddit
Ask the diesel guys about bypassing government mandated equipment.
Fragrant-Menu215@reddit
The difference here is that turning the spyware off won't result in a massive giant public signal that you've done it, nor will it create a public nuisance that will lead to public demands to do something about it.
Diesel bros brought everything they're dealing with now on themselves. Being an antisocial jackhole has consequences. I have zero sympathy.
GGCRX@reddit
You mean the mandate that specifically forbids anyone from disabling it? That's not a valid comparison.
future_web_dev@reddit
That means they will be required to provide support for devices older than 3 years! Check mate!
viper4011@reddit
Nah they don’t even have to do that. Any tempering will void your insurance plan or massively increase the price.
hewkii2@reddit
This is a legal requirement, not a right to repair item
MakeGovtObsolete@reddit
If removing it bricks your car, or it’s illegal to remove, it’s relevant to Right to Repair.
hewkii2@reddit
No? Having seatbelts as a requirement is not Right to Repair, and you even get ticketed for not using them.
Trendiggity@reddit
You can still drive your car without seatbelts installed.
The issue is we're getting closer to a system where a car can be remotely handicapped or disabled because you've done something to it that the manufacturer or your government doesn't like. That's the problem.
liamemsa@reddit
This already exists. I was at a dealership and asked if there was anyway to permanently disable that "turn off at stoplights" feature. They said that would void the warranty.
electricheat@reddit
they were incorrect
Zhombe@reddit
We will be 3d printing car parts and refurbing old truck frames before anyone who cares accepts this. They really don’t want to create a black / grey market for DIY cars; but this will do it.
Percentage of old truck? 1 percent. Percentage of ownership? 100 percent. Number of digital nags, ads, and big brothers? 0.
MichiganGeezer@reddit
"You can't register it until you can demonstrate your vehicle has been retrofitted with the mandated safety devices."
Our American government likes being right more than anything else.
So long as motorcycles don't have the equipment people could do ok.
HerefortheTuna@reddit
Currently the safety standards are set to year of manufacture.
Is that changing?
MichiganGeezer@reddit
Is it impossible to change when bad government pulls the "because we said so" on us.
I am politically active in the pro-gum scene. I've seen all manner of dirty tricks being pulled by people who want their results imposed upon people they dislike.
"No grandfathering" is definitely a trick in the playbook of control freaks.
Orxbane@reddit
That's exactly why I consider my right to own and operate a private vehicle is another line in the sand for as me as the other item you mentioned.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Are there people who are anti-gum? Aside from Singapore, of course.
Zhombe@reddit
Sister Mary Clarence of St. Francis Academy
Drzhivago138@reddit
"You can always tell who went to Catholic school, because they're atheists."
lonewanderer812@reddit
That's why I have a red Barchetta sitting in an old barn just in case.
BreakfastGuinness@reddit
In a country place that no one knows about hopefully
MichiganGeezer@reddit
If you're in a Rush to get somewhere that's the best car for the job.
MurphysRazor@reddit
Sounds like a desperate plan. Just hope it fits the plan.
Users5252@reddit
I hope that kit cars and home built cars will become popular, popular enough that cars like the Lotus Seven, Locosts, Midlanas, and many of the British roadsters will be given the same legal treatment as a motorcycle.
Ambitious-Concern-42@reddit
<Eventually that could mean you don't buy ANY cars.
Not in our lifetimes, probably ever, will this be the case. No way. Consumers will not have to pay for surveillance, or have nothing. That's just ridiculous.
People are acting like all the surveillance is already mandatory. Well you don't have to buy anything high tech for your home, have a doorbell cam, or indoor cams.
triggered__Lefty@reddit
You don't know the new generation. They could care less about any of this tracking. They're growing up with it right now.
Most of them are so incompetent they would be happy to not even have to drive.
Streetlgnd@reddit
Manufacturers wont exist if nobody buys their cars.
JDubStep@reddit
Then the push will go to ride share services. Following along with the rest of capitalism, you'll own nothing and like it.
iroll20s@reddit
I already have avoided buying any car made after 2019. A lot a dial home telematics and ecu locking came into play after then. (YMMV depending on brand)
Cranks_No_Start@reddit
My car’s built in the 90s are dumber than a box of rocks and that’s how I likes it.
GrynaiTaip@reddit
Mine is from the '00s and it's just dumb enough to have all the useful features without any nannies or internet connectivity.
Cranks_No_Start@reddit
IMHO mid 90s to early 00s/07 are about the best.
Carrera_996@reddit
I have been driving the same dumb rattle-trap for 26 years. I'm good.
Cranks_No_Start@reddit
My 96 is the newest one I have and I got it in 98.
Does_Not_Use_Clothes@reddit
"Eventually that could"
Unwarranted Probability: Treating a remote possibility as a certainty, assuming that a moderate step will logically result in an outrageous or extreme end.
RichieJ86@reddit
Hopefully, but in the meantime, you got to stick it to them, somehow.
As it stands, buy used and continue to buy used, or give your money elsewhere (for example, if you have short distances to commute, find other travel accommodations). I find these decisions are only done with absolute certainty when people resign their autonomy under the impression that, "Hey, it's going to happen anyway", which I don't believe if everyone stuck together and fought back. It may never go away, sure, but it also make enough of a difference that they either delay it or forget about it, entirely. Companies only get emboldened when they know they can be a pushover to consumers.
Funny enough, Louis Rossmann put out a video in the last day or so about Antropic doing A/B tests on a sample set of customers to see what they'd be willing to pay for, and I know this is a practice for most companies, too. It's disgusting. And they'll continue to do it as long as we don't say anything.
Droopy1592@reddit
Used market about to inflate again.
linkheroz@reddit
Plenty of used cars out there.
dwfmba@reddit
not when they do Cash for clunkers 2.0
TheHeroChronic@reddit
Or come up with some new obd system that all cars must comply to that the old ones will never meet
MichiganGeezer@reddit
I was going to mention sodium silicate in this discussion.
Government absolutely WILL kill cars to force an outcome in their favor.
NightFuryToni@reddit
Remember DMCA exists, they'll fine you and sue you if you do that...
deja-roo@reddit
This would be a pretty big misunderstanding of what DMCA is lol
electricheat@reddit
The parts outlawing circumvention of technological measures protecting a copyright work could well apply
Jethro_Tell@reddit
Doesn't stop abuses by well funded legal departments.
deja-roo@reddit
Yes it does. The best funded department in the world can't just invent law on its own. There is no civil remedy for workarounds, and only criminal penalties, and none of them would apply to something like this.
Again, just a pretty big misunderstanding of what DMCA is.
TheLoneStarResident@reddit
Unfortunately you need a car if you want a job, relationship, social life, etc.
no one is giving you a job without reliable transport
no woman is going to want you without a car
no friends and family is going to invite you to as many events as you would have if you didn’t have a car, or at least provide you rides
Yea you can buy used but eventually in a few years these new cars will be the used cars.
400Volts@reddit
You can just buy cars made before the model year this was implemented
garden_speech@reddit
Bruh I can't believe this isn't obvious to you, given the comments in this thread you've made about it but: (a) not everyone wants a car someone else already put a bunch of miles on, and (b) if all new cars implement this feature, then at some point in the future the "used" cars you'll have the ability to buy which don't have this feature will be very, very old.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
Yeah but there won’t be alternatives other than used cars
400Volts@reddit
Yes and? What's wrong with a used car?
trchili@reddit
Well for starters; They’re not making any new ones.
triggered__Lefty@reddit
outsides of exotics, its still cheaper to fix and restore old used cars than buy a new one.
street593@reddit
That's not a problem unless they stop making replacement parts.
400Volts@reddit
But they're are millions of them
executingsalesdaily@reddit
I’m all set for this situation. I have a 2015 Lexus with a v6 engine that’ll run to a million miles if cared for properly.
MurphysRazor@reddit
I've had multiple cars make that mark. You don't really need a Lexus or Toyota to get there. My Toyotas didn't even make the 500k mark. Though it was really close for one pickup, they were simply average. You initially bought Lexus for the dealer service reputation, which isn't as good as it used to be.
executingsalesdaily@reddit
I didn’t say other cars can’t achieve that mark and I didn’t buy new from a Lexus dealer. However, the Lexus dealer in my area is great.
Go tell someone else what they did and why. You are wrong here bud. You also sound like ai
MurphysRazor@reddit
Go pay too much money for a paperweight copy of a Benz and grab spark plug wire with your teeth so we can see how bright you really are. It ain't my fault you're so easily influnced by commercial media you act like there is no comparison.
executingsalesdaily@reddit
Get help kid. 🫠
MurphysRazor@reddit
I made a point you agreed with to some extent, and you lashed out childishly. Ha ha, hey!; guess what? You might get lashed back at. That part ain't rocket appliances and your tap dance moves to spin things onto me rather than own it and end it, or maybe add a few more pro Lexus points for us to talk about, say a lot about who needs some help d'ere Brainac. Jfc...and "Words baaad!"? Are them d'ere neck bolts metric? Because I figure d'ey're all metric and always wanted to know. I ain't your kid, pops
I ain't your pops, kid Well ok, maybe I might be. But that's a lot of us too.
boostedb1mmer@reddit
No, vote out the assholes that voted to require the tech to be developed and installed in the first place.
400Volts@reddit
So many people in these replies seem to think that buying new cars is the only thing they're allowed to do
TheLastREOSpeedwagon@reddit
People will still buy the car
Shallow_wanderer@reddit
Yeah, true - for all the "seeing the truth and being enlightened" talk I see on social media, there's hordes more people out there who are just ignorant to everything and will gladly buy whatever slop is put in front of them, let's be so damn real rn
ezagreb@reddit
Yep the day the car started doing that I’m driving a motorcycle
EastRoom8717@reddit
“I detect that your heart rate is elevated and you were showing significant signs of stress and fatigue.. “
And so she was murdered, unable to leave the scene..
Even-Promotion-4024@reddit
Would be really nice if automakers would use some of their lobbying power to oppose this instead of fighting for tariffs and against environmental standards...
Drzhivago138@reddit
The automakers either don't mind or actively want this.
smpstech@reddit
Of course they want it. New cars are already selling your driving and location data to data brokers, why not more. Where are your eyes, how well are you paying attention to the road, do you get angry and yell or are you calm? Anything to adjust your insurance premiums (up, of course, never down).
BeefCakeBilly@reddit
Why would automakers want to advertise there cars as more expensive to insure?
WarOnFlesh@reddit
Because they make $2k in profit selling you the car and another 2k in profit selling your data
BeefCakeBilly@reddit
They would sell the data regardless, having a car that costs more to insure just seems like a harder selling point.
garden_speech@reddit
I don't think that would explain why they'd want this, where this is a legally mandated driver monitoring system that's got regulatory / legal overhead.
They may want to sell your data but they are already doing that just fine, they don't need to be mandated to have another feature.
HerefortheTuna@reddit
They want it in as far as it pushes people to A. Give them money to buy a new complying car that they can mark-up
B. Pay them for parts to maintain your old vehicle to avoid the regs
liamemsa@reddit
Correct. The goal is to squeeze at much profit out of a single vehicle purchase. Instead of paying once when you buy the vehicle, now your vehicle has a dozen features locked behind subscription purchases, and they actively monitor you so they can sell your information to third party advertisers to continue to make money off you. You are the product.
colenotphil@reddit
Automakers want this as an excuse to put more expensive surveillance technology into cars, so they can collect data such as telemetry to brokers and insurance companies.
Ford for example has been talking about connected vehicles on nearly every earnings call for years now.
avoidhugeships@reddit
They are fighting this.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Which automaker is fighting it?
avoidhugeships@reddit
All of them. This is just added cost for something that does not help sell cars.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Could you provide a link for any instance where an OEM is lobbying against it?
TelephoneDesperate84@reddit
I’ve always thought it would be a good idea to make breathalyzers standard in cars. Just to start the car, no rolling tests. I know there are ways around it but it would save a lot of lives, even if it’s not a perfect solution. It also does cost a lot to get those things calibrated every month so idk
zerogee616@reddit
You've never known anybody with a breathalyzer in their car.
I've never had one but I have known people who have, they're fucking god-awful and only exist to punish drunk drivers and enrich a third party parasitizing the court system. They're much more expensive than $40, so "sensitive" the yeast from eating a sandwich will set them off, they throw false positives all the time, you have to take them to a shop to "calibrate" them every month at your own expense and you have to pull over like every 10-15 minutes to re-blow.
There's a reason the only people who have them, 100%, are people who are court-ordered to do so. There's no such thing as a "Better safe than sorry Brad" who has one just in case they hit the bar a little too hard after work because of how much of an utter borderline-counterproductive pain the absolute ass they are to have in a car.
TelephoneDesperate84@reddit
I had a breathalyzer in my car for a year. When I was 24. Wasn’t bad at all lol.
zerogee616@reddit
You must've gotten a lot better company that makes them than the people I know who did.
TelephoneDesperate84@reddit
Pretty much all car breathalyzers allow rolling tests
zerogee616@reddit
I also highly doubt they're calibrated at .04 seeing as most probation periods I'm aware of that breathalyzers are a part of mandate sobriety and come with drug and alcohol testing.
TelephoneDesperate84@reddit
I meant that you’d calibrate it at .04 if you were to make them standard
Unable_Dinner_6937@reddit
I just want a car that is affordable, drives reliably and is efficient. I don’t need it to be a rolling robotic supercomputer. I can’t believe all this technology is improving either affordability, profitability or safety.
I’m also skeptical that safety is the main objective. You ever drive to work and notice an empty police car parked in the same place on the same street every day? It’s likely there to simply record the license plates of all the cars that pass by and enter them into a central tracking database. The point seems to be surveillance for both government and commercial interests.
Iliketowork@reddit
What happens if those systems that monitor you need repair? The "owner" is suppsoe topay to repair that?
DoublePostedBroski@reddit
Do current 2027 models have this? I’m in the market for a new car.
norfatlantasanta@reddit
No. It's not likely NHTSA will enforce the technology for the next several years anyways, given that they told Congress it has a failure rate that's too high.
There are passive driver monitoring systems everywhere now, though they only really seem to buzz and beep at you and can be disabled. New Lexus models have them, and they're an option on some Subarus.
Porencephaly@reddit
Imagine being a lawmaker and thinking to yourself "the best way to stop drunk driving is with a mandatory AI-powered surveillance system in every car" instead of "an alcohol interlock would do this for like $40." I mean that would still be a shit idea, but at least it wouldn't be completely brain-dead.
zerogee616@reddit
You've never known anybody with a breathalyzer in their car.
They're fucking god-awful and only exist to punish drunk drivers and enrich a third party parasitizing the court system. They're so "sensitive" the yeast from eating a sandwich will set them off, they throw false positives all the time, you have to take them to a shop to "calibrate" them every month at your own expense and you have to pull over like every 10-15 minutes to re-blow.
There's a reason the only people who have them, 100%, are people who are court-ordered to do so. There's no such thing as a "Better safe than sorry Brad" who has one just in case they hit the bar a little too hard after work.
Porencephaly@reddit
Yeah I knew someone would probably be along to post all of that, blithely ignoring the difference between having one engineered by Toyota to interface with the vehicle and installed from the factory, as opposed to some third-party garbage installed by Joe Blow the shadetree mechanic. Did you also miss the part where I said “It would still be a shit idea?” Are you arguing me because you think I’m actually in favor of doing this?
zerogee616@reddit
lmao what makes you think one government-mandated piece of shitty tech would be better than another one? You think they're just going to magically get better overnight?
Porencephaly@reddit
Do you not think the stock infotainment system on a new Sequoia will work better with the vehicle than an aftermarket stereo installed at Best Buy?
zerogee616@reddit
Breathalyzers aren't stereos, they're not driven by consumer need and demand. They're government-mandated punitive devices where they have full reign to be as shitty as possible because Fuck You Drunk Driver, a judge ordered it so what are you going to do about it? If they're mandated to be implemented in all new vehicles I doubt there's any real push to make them better if they're mandatory regardless. Hell, the same companies are probably just going to be contracted by OEMa just like they're contracted now by municipalities.
If they wanted to make breathalyzers that don't suck, they would already exist.
Backup cameras are mandated too but cameras aren't exactly hard to make well and many, many competent cameras were refined by consumer choice and demand in the market before they were mandated in vehicles, and they were also something consumers often went out of their way to buy. Absolutely nobody does that with breathalyzers, because they suck. They started out shitty and they will remain shitty if they're mandated.
bettywhitefleshlight@reddit
The only thing I could get behind is something that detects phone usage while driving. An ear-piercing screech maybe. I guess that also goes for book readers, makeup application, eating, or any other serious distractions.
People suggest that drunk driving is the issue but distracted driving is monumentally more concerning. MADD would want to put a breathalyzer in every vehicle but that would be an unreliable and intrusive nightmare as well.
People just need to be better drivers. Less stupid. Every time I do traffic control either myself or my partner in crime nearly get killed because someone wasn't paying attention.
reddit_hater@reddit
How about no. It’s my car, I’m an adult, and I can make my own decisions. Obv drunk driving is bad but an ear piercing shriek every time I look at my phone is just as bad, like that sounds insane.
bettywhitefleshlight@reddit
If your phone is in your hand while driving you deserve a good screech to correct your actions.
triggered__Lefty@reddit
been driving with a phone in my hand for 25 years. 100 miles a day. not one accident or close call.
Its about the driver, not what they are doing.
nihil8r@reddit
strong agree, /u/bettywhitefleshlight
Morbidly_Off_Piste@reddit
Why would anyone be opposed to this?
Don't fucking drink and drive.
Users5252@reddit
I think that we need a kit car/locost movement to kick off soon, or it will be the death of the car culture as we know it.
If we had a movement where a large number of people began driving barebones, homebuilt sports cars, I think that it may result in sub 900kg cars to be given the same legal treatment as motorcycles, and allow the mass production of traditional cars that are not computers on wheels to continue.
Dark_Romantasy@reddit
So, if able, get a car from outside of America. Got it.
Fieryathen@reddit
Laughs in 98 ford ranger
theaviationhistorian@reddit
Breathalizers themselves are a hit and miss as some arrive broken from the box and have to be recalibrated frequently! Forcing this mandate will be a shitshow. This is another example of Congress passing laws without any idea of how the tech involved works.
zerogee616@reddit
That's by design, they exist to make money off of the court system.
noSSD4me@reddit
Buy the car, rip that shit out, keep driving the car, is that not an option? I mean someone will definitely find a fix around that.
luistorre5@reddit
Just gotta not buy the car, but I know some idiots are going to anyways
fuck (and I cannot stress this enough) AI
Shallow_wanderer@reddit
Some? Let's be so for real rn, it's going to be the vast majority of people
Cranks_No_Start@reddit
Some? People will buy millions of them.
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AlbatrossStrong9085@reddit
It all started with those blackbox recorders
Epsioln_Rho_Rho@reddit
Isn't that borderline agains the 4th Amendment?
HawaiiClipper@reddit
no
zkrp5108@reddit
I guess used cars from now on
sleepyguy007@reddit
well sounds like my plan of... uh driving my cayman than upgrading to another but nicer used cayman is a good plan!
HoodedNegro@reddit
Luckily I only buy old shitboxes😎
motorik@reddit
It was time to buy a new car after driving the last one for 17 years. I anticipated this sort of thing and we bought a Toyota last year that's going to speak at my funeral.
Vvette45@reddit
If you bought a new Toyota, good luck.
RedditWhileIWerk@reddit
Checkmate, surveillance state: I'll never be able to afford a new car.
FlopShanoobie@reddit
At what point will AI start monitoring your social media posts to see if you're bragging about dangerous driving or other signs you might be a danger behind the wheel.
Gloomy_Yoghurt_2836@reddit
And how do these cars communicate? Is owning a cell phone mandatory?
TW1TCHYGAM3R@reddit
Well you can vote with your wallet and not buy the vehicle.
gsj996@reddit
My 1998 gmc sierra that has a brand new motor and coat of paint looks better and better everyday.
pele4096@reddit
Coyote swap with a custom wiring harness and standalone ECU.
Tremec T56 and a Ford 8.8 IRS put back.
Infotainment by Kenwood, Sony, JBL, etc.
These sorts of problems are easily solved with tools.
KeyboardGunner@reddit (OP)
You and I have different definitions of easy...
pele4096@reddit
What AIN'T easy is going to a dealership and signing some 100 grand away or getting into a 60 month loan at whatever the interest rate is now.
Fuck that nonsense.
KeyboardGunner@reddit (OP)
We are in complete agreement on that.
jca_ftw@reddit
Wow so people constantly crave more power and more speed, they balk at speed cameras in the highway ( that allow you to go 85 without a ticket) , pedestrians and cyclists are getting killed at alarming rates, accidents are happening at record rates, auto repair bills are at an all time high, and you folks are “yeah this is the way to go”. Not to mention traffic jams are now the norm instead of the exception.
Seems like this sub is mostly inhabited by boy racers who think they are in an episode of Street Outlaws or Pinks. I’m so tired of my life being put in danger by irresponsible and stupid drivers.
Bitch bitch bitch but nobody here will propose another solution, or even admit there is a real problem on our roads, our insurance rates, and our health care premiums.
KanterBama@reddit
I actually detest these systems but fully support licensing for cars by power to weight ratio, especially one that requires recertification. But I already have disposable income that goes to motorsports, so I’m definitely in the minority.
My dream model: The standard US license should only be able to buy up to a 12:1 car (3000lbs, 250hp), a higher tier allows 10:1 cars (3000lbs, 300hp), another tier for 8:1 cars (3000lbs, 375hp), and finally the highest license allows you to drive whatever you want, but requires x hours of HPDE every year to stay current like a pilot.
My buddy bought a used Model S Plaid last summer for $55k with 8k miles on the clock. He has multiple 1XXX cars, and even he said it’s stupid how fast it is. No one should be able to pick up a piss missile that easily, it should require testing to prove you can actually handle it and have the maturity to not hurt others.
bozoconnors@reddit
Don't worry. The NHTSA won't rest until we're all rolling around in five point harnesses via autonomous bouncy bubbles with a max speed of 17mph.
koopa00@reddit
Nothing screams improved safety like losing any sense of independence and privacy. I was just thinking how much safer it feels to fly on a plane these days. I feel so safe every time I wait in line at the TSA and have a guy screaming at me to take my laptop out of the bag, and again when I land and the TSA screams at me to not take the laptop out of the bag.
The amount of horsepower available per dollar is something I've feared a little bit, regular people can get high HP EV's for dirt cheap and that is a little scary. But at the same time, we're putting more distracting devices in vehicles and people still use their phone while driving. It just seems like of all the ways to address our problems, 100% surveillance that will almost certainly be abused is NOT the answer.
Moynia@reddit
Im shocked its taken this long for an article to finally show up here on this, people on Twitter have been screaming about it all week.
puffadda@reddit
People on Twitter scream about a lot of things. It's fairly easy to game their outrage algorithm.
Seymour_Tamzarian@reddit
It was posted here 6 days ago……..
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/s/u7k9YoAX3d
KanterBama@reddit
Why can’t we be doing cool things with AI? Give my co-driver in WRC video games the ability to understand what I mean when I yell “Hans, you should have TOLD ME ‘CAUTION’ THERE!”
But no, let’s put an agent in the car, and not even one that’s cool and says things like “you can take these highway curves without braking.” Instead we get this nannycamGPT that would embarrass George Orwell as even he didn’t think populations would fall for it this easily.
I fucking hate AI because all it’s done is given money-obsessed nerds more power, not one person has asked their tool “how can I not look like a huge fucking nerd today?”
I use it at work, I know how good opus 4.7 is, we could be doing actually fucking cool things with this stuff instead of just building patterns to sell to data harvesters.
KeyboardGunner@reddit (OP)
Well said.
Bandit483@reddit
Wont buy one
xXNodensXx@reddit
I won't buy a car with this crap. If that means I never buy another new car again, so be it.
cubs223425@reddit
Considering consumers have signed away their rights, ownership, and self-control on every other thing for the last 20 years, I fully expect more idiots shouting "what do you have to hide?" as they bend over for a shiny, new toy from a megacorp.
raginghavoc89@reddit
I will never buy a car anyone or anything can remotely shut down. I would rather build and license a kit car.
Uzi_Jesus_@reddit
So car builders kits?
PositivelyAwful@reddit
It's weird how quiet the "don't tread on me" people are these days.
Significant-Pen-6049@reddit
Guess I'm hoarding more Pontiac vibes. Rust proofing chassis.
eirexe@reddit
Europe Will also have this, GSR2 regulations make stuff like this mandatory. It's all terrible...
costafilh0@reddit
Newsflash: New cars are sh1t. More at 5.
ChirpyRaven@reddit
People have been saying "new cars are shit, the older model is better" since the goddamn Model A came out.
Stu__Pidasso@reddit
You're allowed to say shit, it's okay
patientpadawan@reddit
Dont forget if you go to massie money bomb you can donate to the 1 man trying to stop this
Low_Succotash5073@reddit
(Me, drunk as hell, repeatedly slamming my feet on the dashboard of the Robotaxi) Jarvis…give me my fucking keys
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J1mj0hns0n@reddit
Then there's a quick segue into the market, be on the cheaper side and literally don't do that!
The market will correct itself
NoctD@reddit
Just mandate a stick shift instead - the impaired won't be getting very far!
Drzhivago138@reddit
mr_j_12@reddit
Haltech, link, emu master sales about to go through the roof.
Previous_Platform718@reddit
$10 says some states look into banning these in the next 10 years because they "enable impaired driving"
pleaseletmeinimcold@reddit
Very curious that the article about “New Cars Sold In America” chose a Renault 4 for the artwork. I wish we’d get the new R4, I think they look quite fun, especially in the purple color they have.
Lorenzo_Blow@reddit
Surely there will be ways to bypass the tech?
I was able to bypass the dumb auto start/stop in my wife's car, although I'm sure this wouldn't be as easy..
Emotional_Signal7883@reddit
Because car models are sold worldwide and this is only a U.S. thing, it shouldn't be impossible to just code it out.
Dinosbacsi@reddit
You can easily bypass it by not buying a car that has it.
Lorenzo_Blow@reddit
Lol jfc obviously.
I guess abstinence is the best form of birth control huh? 😂
jawknee530i@reddit
The law can dictate whatever it wants, that doesn't mean the technology to do what it's dictating exists (it doesn't). Expect this to just keep getting kicked down the road indefinitely.
mydoortotheworld@reddit
They will have to pry my old 4runner out of my cold dead hands at this point.