How is fuel paid/billed during unscheduled stops?
Posted by idkblk@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 81 comments
Let's say a plane lands somewhere, where it doesn't have a 'usual business connection' to the airport. Where the respective airline isn't known. Or let it be a private plane, Airforce One or whatever. Probably even a (financially) untrustworthy airline.
How is fuel billed an scheduled? Do pilots carry a fuel credit card like I do for a company car?
illimitable1@reddit
That's why there are two pilots. You can keep the FO as collateral.
LateralThinkerer@reddit
Are those an asset or a liability? /S
sneijder@reddit
Fuel release agreement normally comes from the airlines OCC pretty quickly.
Fuel supplier will act on behalf of a number of account possibilities.
There’s been rare (3-4 times in 20 years) where one of the crew will have to use personal credit card
Long_Pomegranate2469@reddit
Uhh, can we get 2000 in Jet fuel please? What does it cost to fill up a large plane and who's got that limit?
LearningDumbThings@reddit
Non-hedged contract fuel rates have typically been around $5-6 USD/gal (recent months notwithstanding). A large cabin Gulfstream or Global that comes in “on fumes” can uplift close to 7000 gallons.
_entrxpy@reddit
So jet fuel in the US is still cheaper than pump gas in Europe... Jfc
Bryndyn@reddit
Jet fuel in Europe is cheaper than pump gas in Europe
amontpetit@reddit
Can I run a VW on Jet A? Asking for a friend…
theeaglejax@reddit
You can if it's a diesel
TurnoverMysterious64@reddit
What’s the legality of that in Europe?
I know in the US you can run a diesel on home heating oil, but it’s very illegal to do so because it’s taxed at a much lower rate. So heating oil is dyed and if you’re caught using it outside of a furnace you’ll be in a heap of trouble.
theeaglejax@reddit
In Europe I have no idea. In the US no one is dipping the fuel tank on anything VW makes to check for taxes. Also I don't know for sure but I don't think that jet A is dyed for tax purposes the way that diesel is.
TurnoverMysterious64@reddit
You’re right, no one is doing random checks on diesel vehicles.
I’d guess any enforcement is largely limited to companies with fleets of diesel vehicles, and even then an investigation only happens if something else brings it to the attention of law enforcement. Like an anonymous tip from an unhappy employee or it’s discovered during an investigation into something unrelated and is a means to aid the primary investigation (e.g. added pressure to secure a plea/settlement, etc.).
ccanderson2309@reddit
Not a true statement. Fairly common in the USA for farm trucks (pickups and semis) to be dipped because Agricultural fuel doesn’t have road use taxes applied gasoline and diesel. The fines are big enough to offset any savings from using ag fuels
Exos9@reddit
I mentioned this in my previous comment, but in case of an accident where insurance sends out an “expert” to assess damage, they will check your ECU, and if they find it to be reprogrammed, they will deny your claim even if you’re 100% in the right, since you’re technically in breach of contract
theeaglejax@reddit
Oh no there are absolutely random fuel checks for road taxes. But it's done on obvious vehicles aka f-250 and up sized trucks that generally appear at least to be doing 'work'. Cabbage cops don't give a fuck about your diesel Jetta/rabbit.
TurnoverMysterious64@reddit
Really? I’m surprised to hear that. I figured this sort of enforcement had long been diluted to the point of being virtually non-existent. Glad it’s something that’s still policed.
00owl@reddit
It used to be something that they policed a lot more back when the population had a higher per capita of rural farm owners it made more sense to police their taxes since it was a proportionally larger share of the overall tax base.
Now it's probably only something they'd check if they had reasonable grounds or after they impound but only if they really don't like you.
Exos9@reddit
In France, extremely illegal. Your car is certified for diesel. You may use diesel. You are not allowed to use “non-drivable diesel”, (which is a red-dyed diesel with less tax used for generators or farm equipment) even though it’s the same thing just dyed.
Re-programming your car to run on jet is super duper mega illegal. However, the chances of getting caught are pretty low. The main risk is in case of an accident, insure won’t cover you because you’re driving outside the certified specs of your car listed on the registration paperwork.
_entrxpy@reddit
It's the same in Europe, heating diesel is dyed red
sneijder@reddit
No tax on Jet Fuel in Europe … amazes me to this day the ‘superglue ourselves to the runway’ gang haven’t brought it up.
Exos9@reddit
Only flying commercial, non-commercial is usually about 2x as expensive.
xxJohnxx@reddit
Jet fuel in Europe is also a lot cheaper than pump gas.
Before the recent events, you‘d pay ~1.0€/L depending on supplier and contract of course. Airlines, with good contracts, paid less.
Now you are around 2.0€/L for Jet A if you have to pay pump price.
Exos9@reddit
In Europe, jet fuel prices also depend if you’re flying commercial or private. Commercial is less expensive due to being exempt from certain taxes.
LearningDumbThings@reddit
2.0€/L is roughly the current ‘over the counter’ price for Jet on the west of the pond as well, plus or minus.
--TAXI--@reddit
DANG!
BeefPoet@reddit
That happe d to me 6 years ago with a Q300. The credit card company wouldn't give the points for it.
Exos9@reddit
I had to use my personal card to fill up my school’s PA-28 once. Having to call the bank to authorise the purchase while at the pump with weather worsening was not a fun experience.
memeboiandy@reddit
"I need 300k L for my A380 on AMEX please. What do you mean you arnt going to give me my points for 1M$ worth of fuel 😭😭😭💔💔💔"
00owl@reddit
I drove school bus for a year and we had fleet cards with Shell to fill up at any gas station that made sense for us based on our routes.
We were explicitly told to get the points cards because we got to keep the points personally even though the company was paying for the fuel.
Acrobatic-Post9811@reddit
"Sorry, we don't take American Express".
LostPilot517@reddit
You laugh but I use to work for an airline, this airline just exited bankruptcy, it was not uncommon to run the COOs personal CC for fueling a B737, as exiting bankruptcy they did not have the trust of all vendors for fuel cards and such.
A lot of things including handling, air stairs, lav service, etc would be charged to that card.
There is a receipt that gets reposted quite a bit here on Reddit of a CC transaction slip buying an aircraft on one of the Credit Cards from said company.
memeboiandy@reddit
Idk if I could everr have enough trust in an employeer to let them put 10s or 100s of thousands of dollars worth of expenses on my personal credit card. Especially if they are coming out of a bankruptcy 🤣😭
LostPilot517@reddit
Worked out well for me, I gained a highly marketable type rating, put some time in and upgraded. Moved on to the forever job.
Worst case scenario, I was coming out with the type and if things collapsed, I left on good terms from previous employer and could fall back to them. Sure beats thinking you are at your forever job and seeing it ask for government bailouts after filing for bankruptcy basically twice in a year.
WoundedAce@reddit
“Fuel Card”
notaballitsjustblue@reddit
We carry a credit card with no limit. Never used it.
Monkey_Spanker69@reddit
Is that for the big black jet, with a bedroom in it?
notaballitsjustblue@reddit
Negative
CrashSlow@reddit
My experience with aviation company cards is the limit is usually at or very close to zero.
notaballitsjustblue@reddit
Yeah I’m honestly not sure. Never had cause to use it.
idkblk@reddit (OP)
Interesting. And the pin is written on it with a pen?
holl0918@reddit
Credit, not debit.
wade822@reddit
Credit cards have pins too.
Orange3900@reddit
I recall a hijacking some years ago where a flight attendant’s credit card was used to pay for a refueling.
Crashy1620@reddit
I was a fueler at Al-Asad in Iraq during the 2000s. There was a couple of times that an AN-12 came in and of course needed fuel. They paid cash, USD. I don’t remember exact amounts, I just what a pain in the ass it was. It was like whatever USMC officer was responsible for fuel had to accept the cash and sign the ticket. It took like 3 hours.
flyghu@reddit
I taxi to the self serve pump and swipe my card.
Kitchen-Celery8374@reddit
Was on a flight once that had an unscheduled landing at some US airforce base in Asia due to weather. Funny enough they didn't take credit so took a few hours of negotiating to have the airline pay them to refuel us to get to our destination.
Quick-Caregiver-2243@reddit
The short answer is that the airplane wants to be refuelled and the airport wants to sell fuel, so both parties are willing to do what it takes to ensure an arrangement can happen.
idkblk@reddit (OP)
Well that is obvious.... But I am more interested how those arrangements finally unfold.
samiam2600@reddit
You are annoying af.
idkblk@reddit (OP)
Why? Because I'm calling out a generic answer? One party wants to buy something, and another party has to sell something --> so they have to find an arrangement. How more generic can an answer be???
Threedawg@reddit
Its because there isnt one answer. Some airlines/owners/airports do one thing, some do another.
Your question was not specific enough to get the specific answer you are demanding.
mkosmo@reddit
A credit card.
RealParity@reddit
Quite often it is indeed cash.
sneijder@reddit
On what continent ?
wileysegovia@reddit
This Paraguayan airline had to pass the hat one time in Guinea. They landed there by accident instead of Senegal.
Seven thousand dollars in cash split between 273 passengers.
Paraguayan airline lands in wrong country
unicornsausage@reddit
That's wild!
mvpilot172@reddit
Yeah I fly with Air Force guys who tell me about having cases of cash to buy gas in Africa for their cargo plane. In most places a company credit card works.
EasyAsAyeBeeSea@reddit
Same for my friends that fly to and from Columbia, gas is apparently crazy expensive there because they have to bring so much cash!
_entrxpy@reddit
moda81@reddit
I worked in an airport once. We had a Ukrainian airline on the verge of bankruptcy, so they couldn’t pay. In the end the pilot paid the bill with his own credit card.
On some airlines from Gulf states, the pilots would carry suitcases with cash, and airport personnel would receive the payment in the cockpit escorted by airport security.
idkblk@reddit (OP)
That must have been a lot of money for that pilot?!
moda81@reddit
Well, yes… but I guess it was a choice between that and dealing with all the administrative hassle of being stuck, plus having to answer to 200 angry passengers telling them:
“Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Unfortunately, we don’t have sufficient funds to pay for fuel, so please disembark the airplane and figure out how to proceed on your journey by yourselves”
trying_to_adult_here@reddit
Dispatcher here. My airline has a couple of logistics companies we pay to coordinate offline diversions. So theoretically I call them and say “hey, we diverted to BFE and we need to refuel” and they call the FBO or whoever and coordinate. I’ve seen this go very smoothly or become a complete mess with the same company.
I’ve also seen a scenario before we started using a logistics company where we paid for fuel with a credit card. The FBO had several accounts that sounded like they could be our corporate account, but the woman working there couldn’t tell which one was ours and we didn’t want to accidentally charge our fuel to someone else’s account. There were a bunch of very similar names, think World Airline, World Airlines, Word Airlines USA, World Airline Corporate, which might be us or might not, why would we have multiple accounts? So I got a manager to give them a credit card.
idkblk@reddit (OP)
That's interesting! Thank you for your response! Them = the flight crew?
trying_to_adult_here@reddit
“Them” equals the logistics company. I call the logistics company who calls everybody local and then tells me when it’s done.
The pilots shouldn’t be having to do anything, except possibly relay to the fueler how much fuel we want if the FBO/fueler doesn’t get our fuel releases normally.
idkblk@reddit (OP)
I see, and then the logistics company would pay the amount like when I order a t-shirt with a credit card? Or... just tell them the card number 'over the phone' ?
I'm just asking because it isn't always so easy (for me privately). Sometimes when I want to pay something with credit card... the F2A push message doesn't come and such stuff. Anyway, it always hasn't been completely reliable even for paying small amounts and such a fuel bill is gotta be a lot.
trying_to_adult_here@reddit
I honestly have no idea. We pay them so I don’t have to worry about it.
ScottTracy1@reddit
I work for a charter airline for perspective: fuel releases from brokers take minutes to arrange so thats preferable. Option 2 is if the handling agent or FBO has a good rate then its charged to the handling bill. Option 3 is a rare one but FD carry credit cards with them that can be used but its generally more expensive.
ForsakenRacism@reddit
You get an account with a giant fuel network like world fuel and then the FBO bills that and then you pay off your bill to world fuel or whoever
Mission_Nin@reddit
I once flew Qantas to Hong Kong and had to make an unscheduled stop in Manila for more fuel due to storms in HK. At first they wouldn't let us connect to airport power - no lights or A/C for about 15 mins. After things got sorted out the Captain came through the cabin to chat/reassure the passengers. He commented that he had to use a personal credit card for the fuel!
xxJohnxx@reddit
In Europe it is usually just billed to the company for large airlines.
We don‘t carry cash or a company credit card.
idkblk@reddit (OP)
Well in my prompt I intentionally left out the well known "large airlines"
haamfish@reddit
In your prompt 🤣🤣 we are people not an ai!!
RBR927@reddit
Speak for yourself — maybe some of us are!
Dr__-__Beeper@reddit
Cash , American dollars.
Long_Pomegranate2469@reddit
Are you flying a CIA plane?
RedAlvaroman@reddit
No, then he would pay in cocaine
Hypnotist30@reddit
The real global currency.
Inondator@reddit
Never use an airline that pays its fuel with cash briefcases, it's a strong sign that it's rotting inside and will soon go bankrupt (or have a crash and then go bankrupt).
kirabella2000@reddit
The plane usually carries several different aviation specific cards such as Viva, IOR or Skyfuel. They are simply cards linked to a pre arranged credit account. The cards are usually tied to the plane rather than person so that the aircraft owner can accurately track the fuel per aircraft.
motobassy@reddit
Some aircraft have a fuel card tied to the registration.