The FDR data from China Eastern flight 5735 indicates that the fuel switches for both engines moved to CUTOFF position within one second
Posted by wNvJungle@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 240 comments
In January of this year, a Chinese citizen filed a FOIA request to the NTSB, receiving a response yesterday (April 29, 2026).
The materials from the NTSB included a July 2022 data download report, emails between the NTSB and the CAAC (heavily redacted), and pre-crash FDR data.
The report confirms the CVR audio was downloaded in "excellent" quality and handed over to the CAAC. The NTSB retained "no CVR audio files or other raw or intermediate download files that could be used to generate audio files".
You can access these materials on github.
DoctorFrick@reddit
This seems eerily familiar...
Wyciorek@reddit
Except for no attempts to restart engines
Dreamerlax@reddit
There were 3 people in the cockpit on the flight. Either they were forced out or incapacitated.
Antares_@reddit
Or all 3 were in on it
Wyciorek@reddit
Suicide pact of 3 people? Hard to believe. But if you look at other data tracks, right after switching off the engines, plane started maneuvering - both roll and pitch. It could be a way to distract the other two from what was going on. Would they understand fast enough if the pilot in command was pretending to be fighting against plane suddenly going uncontrollable?
ZeePirate@reddit
Also the g forces you would be fighting against suddenly
ImYourHumbleNarrator@reddit
engine shutoff wouldn't be hard g's?! wear your seatbelt anyway
Sophey68@reddit
Read again
ABoutDeSouffle@reddit
Might just be a coincidence, but it seems suspicious to me that the flight originated from Kunming, the city of the 2014 terror attack.
_hlvnhlv@reddit
I honestly don't know if it's really the case, or if the Chinese authorities made it up just to use it as an excuse to crack down harder, it's so sad
putyrhandsup@reddit
Things can be both, there is a long and well documented (independently of the Chinese state) history of separatists in the region and the terror attacks they committed. These are a useful thing as a state when you want to enact oppressive surveillance and other systems
Duncan_Zhang_8964@reddit
That’s really not connected.
ABoutDeSouffle@reddit
How do you know?
Duncan_Zhang_8964@reddit
That’s my question to you.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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IllustriousMud8119@reddit
Yes, and just like Germanwings 9525 or SilkAir 185, the hardest part for the industry isn't fixing a mechanical bolt, but admitting that the "fault" was a human mind deciding to check out and take everyone with them. The patterns are identical.
neurid@reddit
This account is a bot.
ThePrussianGrippe@reddit
Most of Reddit is really bad at identifying obvious bot behavior. 2 different accounts that are two years old both ‘waking up’ at the same time and commenting in the same sub? Flagrant bot behavior.
Amphorax@reddit
stfu bot
quietflyr@reddit
stfu "stfu bot" bot
Amphorax@reddit
not a bot i just like calling em out
AdoringCHIN@reddit
Bad bot
pipboy1989@reddit
To be honest, the “people” he commented that to both have 2 year old accounts, and both have 2 comments. Those 2 comments on both accounts are: 1 on this sub and 1 on r/MarvelRivals, which is one hell of a coincidence
Keiepse@reddit
Plus the structure of all those comments (including the ones on MarvelRivals) are identical.
RimRunningRagged@reddit
I find it very hard to watch any accident investigation videos on pilot murder-suicide (or terrorism) for that very reason. There's no obvious, clean-cut solution to the issue, and that makes things very non-reassuring when it comes to flying safety.
No-Service-5389@reddit
It’s giving very much "MH370 before it disappeared" energy. The early indicators pointing to deliberate input, followed by a sudden, strategic silence from the authorities involved. The script feels rewritten but the ending is the same.
Amphorax@reddit
stfu bot
neurid@reddit
Ugh, it’s a 2 year old account with only two comments and both are from today.
djflamingo@reddit
….thats obviously a bot
KirkieSB@reddit
🤦♂️
djflamingo@reddit
^ this is a bot too
KirkieSB@reddit
You yourself are a bot. 😂
Jazzlike_Climate4189@reddit
Great job Reddit for downvoting someone pointing out an actual bot account.
YKRed@reddit
Written like AI
Airbusa3@reddit
EgyptAir 990 vibes
doigal@reddit
I’ve seen this one, it’s a tragedy.
adyrip1@reddit
So the FDR recorded the airplane being put into a dive by someone on the flight deck and now it comes out the engine switches were moved to CUTOFF. And the Chinese authorities refuse to release the report "because releasing the report might "endanger national security and societal stability"". Tinfoil hat on....
njsullyalex@reddit
Take the tinfoil hat off. The Chinese government is basically admitting it’s covering up a murder suicide
Legitimate_Snow_759@reddit
Yeah they are but this is obviously to stop copy cats. Honestly there is nothing to be gained with "hanging this on the big bell" as we say in Germany.
Experts in the industry will be aware of the risk despite the "covering up". Which is why I hope there will be some sort of mitigation to being able to just switch off the fuel like that in future airplanes or software, that goes beyond manual control...
TheAlmightySnark@reddit
Even if you could just ignore the fuel cutoff switches one is still able to pull the fire handle and close the fuel/spar valve's that way. You gotta be able to stop fuel flow during flight to an engine somehow.
praetor450@reddit
Someone who is motivated to cause harm will find a way. A few weeks back someone posted some intricate way that involved splitting the cut off switches to each side and have both pilots action their respective switch to cut off fuel. The OP couldn’t understand how their solution added complexity and points of failure to the design.
Their argument was that it would prevent accidents like this one or Air India one, but failed to see that you don’t need to sabotage the airplane to cause harm.
ic33@reddit
We can certainly prioritize making attempts to flip cutoff switches more visible to the other crew member. We can also separate the two engines' switches a bit more. That may be becoming justified with these accidents.
praetor450@reddit
The visibility I agree with, especially during an actual engine emergency that as pilot flying you might be busy hand flying (during takeoff and now have to fly complex engine out departure), having better visibility will make it easier to confirm when the pilot monitoring is running the drill.
As far a separating a bit more, that becomes debatable. How much more should they be separated? How many engine failures or precautionary engine shut downs occur compared to these type of rare events of pilot suicide? The current placement and design of the cut off switches is so that for normal ops and during emergencies both pilots have easy, unrestricted, and equal accessibility to them to actuate them as required.
TheAlmightySnark@reddit
Horrible idea's, you still need to be able to operate the aircraft on your own. We'd be better off by not ostracizing pilots for having mental issues and wishing to seek help by health professionals. But that would be a sensible thing, these accidents are not a engineering problem.
ic33@reddit
Yes, but on earlier 737's you can turn off both cutoff switches with one hand. They've already improved this some even though it's a "horrible idea's". This suggests there was room for improvement even within the existing cockpit philosophy.
If one pilot can deliberately shut down both engines and the other pilot does not immediately perceive what happened, that is at least partly a situational-awareness and human-factors problem.
Good engineering accounts for human behavior under stress, surprise, distraction, and bad intent.
Typical_Term937@reddit
It is still stupid because it is not really about national security (is it ever?) and undermines credibility for cases where the state actually has to defend nationalbsecurity.
ManifestDestinysChld@reddit
"National security" is well understood as sometimes being a euphemism for "national ego."
PeckerNash@reddit
India has joined the chat.
missingpcw@reddit
Humaaaaans have joined the chat
Dilated_Auntie6970@reddit
The chat is currently surprised with a wandering finger exploring the tensile strength of the brown crown, fleshy cheeks parted as if by a moses of the anys before being thrumped with all the rhythmic power of a steam engine piston that'd have isambard kingdom Brunel in awe of the forces of cosmic rodgering
Kichigai@reddit
It's not national security, it's “national security and societal stability.”
They don't want the flying public to freak out and worry about suicidal pilots.
Deep-Zucchini-9322@reddit
it's about societal stability
RobustManifesto@reddit
How do you mitigate? Making planes safe from pilots deliberately crashing them will make them less safe for every other flight; it’s mutually exclusive.
trackday21@reddit
I agree. We're already living in this space though. Airlines increasingly micromanage how pilots fly, implement IT systems to monitor their flying, to shield the airlines against risk. The medical side makes it impossible to seek help for mental health issues without putting the pilots career and mental health in further jeapordy.
Fluffy-Proof-5175@reddit
Shame we still haven’t figured out mental health even after 3 crashes
trackday21@reddit
I would throw MH370 on the list too.
luvsads@reddit
Software and System engineers do this all the time with autonomous vehicles and ground control/pilot in command. Vehicle needs sophisticated runtime assurance and the operator control interface needs to be gated using context and Situational Awareness
Fair_Measurement_758@reddit
Oh dear can't see that going wrong
luvsads@reddit
I mean, there's never a 0% chance. That said, autonomous flight-safety systems aren't new at all and have been around for decades. RTA specifically is extremely well vetted, tested, and supported. NASA and all US military branches require RTA or at least simplex architecture for essentially all Group 5 aircraft and most other groups as well.
All I'm saying is that some of the smartest people in the world have developed, researched, and verified the safety and reliability of these kinds of systems. Anyone with basic sense should trust them over the opinions and doubts of cynical reddit users lmao
Telepornographer@reddit
Have you heard of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302?
RobustManifesto@reddit
Everything you said gives me chills
luvsads@reddit
I'd usually agree, but modern RTA and other safety systems are extremely robust. If it can get DAL-A certified I'm kosher with it
TinyCopy5841@reddit
Yes, limiting the control authority of the pilots to an envelope that a computer system deems acceptable to an even higher degree than current envelope protections do. Which already caused severe mishaps when the computer malfunctioned. So it can only be done if you introduce another point of failure.
Soft_Walrus_3605@reddit
Is that really a risk here? Any pilot would be able to figure this one out
Legitimate_Snow_759@reddit
It's not only about pilots... it's also about other people that want to take their life.
Automatedluxury@reddit
Just to be clear, suicide contagion doesn't mean we stop talking about suicide or cover it up. Not to say thats what you're implying, but there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread.
Its more to do with sensationlist reporting, focusing on people's personal lives, methods etc. Very few people have this method at their disposal and those that do are probably aware of the high profile cases regardless.
Handled correctly, high profile suicides can have the opposite effect too. Kurt Cobain is a good example, the local narrative in Seattle focused on access to mental health support, checking in on people, it was all presented very sympatheticly despite him being a teen icon (biggest contagion risk group). Suicides actually went down following that response.
TJhambone09@reddit
Ehh... Sensationalist reporting and romanticism are but one part of the contagion. Suicide also spreads within peer groups, and is always a marginal game. I'm not saying that the reaction here is correct, as that's far far far outside my bailiwick, but there's good reason to be concerned about the contagion spreading among pilots even if there's no "Heathers"-style external buzz.
Automatedluxury@reddit
There's probably something to learn from spree killer contagion as well, which is also a reasonable well researched topic.
I personally think China are just doing this because they have a history of shutting down awkward discussions as a state, but there's a lot of research needed into how to work with pilot mental health. Very few jobs will shut you down so quickly for just entering onto the mild side of depression, which at least 1/3rd of people will suffer from. So the culture is to keep it to yourself. I think maybe there's a better balance to be found somewhere so that pilots can approach this with their employers in a collaborative way.
PeckerNash@reddit
I agree with you 100% in the context of the developed world. In other places and cultures, suicide and mental health issues are still a taboo subject which are swept under the rug. Mostly for reasons of saving face.
PmMeUrTinyAsianTits@reddit
Do you think that's the issue with suicide contagion? Normal people just aren't smart enough to figure out a way to kill themselves, like pilots, and i guess that's whats stops it from spreading more?
It's not about the ability to kill yourself. Suicide reporting doesn't cause a wave of suicide because suddenly people know how. That's been trivial knowledge to acquire for a long time.
TJhambone09@reddit
Yes.
"Suicide contagion" is the term for it.
Protip19@reddit
Wouldn't the best method to stop copycats be open dialogue so other pilots and airlines can be on alert for suicidal co-pilots?
no-more-nazis@reddit
Hey buddy you sound kinda like a suicidal pilot
TinyCopy5841@reddit
By that logic then there is no need to publicize any finding or report at all. Experts with a need to know will know about it and take measures to solve it, rest of us don't actually need to know in the grand scheme of things.
Kichigai@reddit
Welcome to China, where the government decides what you need to know.
hughcifer-106103@reddit
same as every other government.
TinyCopy5841@reddit
Right, but the argument that I'm responding to seems to imply that this is a good idea and non authoritarian states should follow China's example.
Long_Pomegranate2469@reddit
While I do want to read the report it's also well studied that publicizing suicides causes copycats.
sasslett@reddit
Yep, as a former journalist we were never to publish the names of those who committed suicide or mass murder events (such as shootings) and in covering such things we were to focus on the event and the victims, not the perpetrator(s) for this exact reason.
Uh... Obviously the state of media has changed quite a bit. Hence "former" journalist.
Gear_Electronic@reddit
But who can do that? Not us normal people. If a pilot wants to do that, they can do it anyway disclosing it or not.
Long_Pomegranate2469@reddit
And most wouldn't have the idea in first place. It's a well known phenomenon that after newspapers would publish about suicide by train there would be many followups in the coming days. It drastically reduced when they stopped writing about it.
If you wildly publicize it you'll end up having more pilots getting the idea, or maybe a bus driver driving off a cliff.
The important part is that they investigated it, drew the conclusions, acted on them, and compensated the victims. From what I can gather this all happened. The NTSB obviously had all the information otherwise there would have been a bigger stink.
China didn't make up some wild story about it, they suppressed the news to the wider public. This will also protect the families of the pilots who might get targeted for revenge.
Who is to say which system is better
VanillaTortilla@reddit
I guess China and India aren't too different after all.
thrownjunk@reddit
Same counties. One just 20 year ahead of the curve economically.
Automatedluxury@reddit
You don't even really have to read between the lines on this one, basically an admission in roundabout terms.
Mushicage@reddit
The careful language almost makes it worse, tbh. When agencies start using phrases like “national security and societal stability” around data that points this clearly, it stops sounding like uncertainty and starts sounding like everyone knows what the report would say if it was released cleanly.
Amphorax@reddit
stfu bot
AlexisFR@reddit
Do you ever say anything else?
Amphorax@reddit
I do! :)
ExplorationGeo@reddit
Reminds me of the rhetoric around EgyptAir 990. From the Egyptian government, before the first phone call was made to start the investigation, it could simply not have been that the pilot brought it down.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
Yep. Old style 737 levers you can shut off fuel to both engines with one hand. Pointer and middle finger each pull one out and down
Source - me, 737 pilot
Not my picture, found online. The new quadrant has the updated style with integrated fire light that made it on some of the last run NGs
Spandexcelly@reddit
Just like they did with the Covid origins.
No_Society_7875@reddit
ICAO Annex 13 guidelines are supposed to prioritize safety over "national stability," yet we keep seeing these black holes in investigations whenever the truth is politically inconvenient. If it was a Boeing mechanical issue, they would have screamed it from the rooftops to clear the airline's name.
Ill-Positive9955@reddit
You don't even need the tinfoil hat at this point. When the data says "delicate manual inputs were made to override the autopilot" and the government says "releasing this would destabilize society," they aren't hiding a mechanical failure—they're hiding a motive.
Gullible-Ad7220@reddit
This is insane, never thought of FO would shut down both engine within 1s before. As a citizen of China, also as an aviation lover, I'm now doing the best to let people of RPC know what really happened with the risk of getting banned or even more serious, but I'd like to take the Risk, some other lovers are doing the same thing. people should know the truth, those victims families have the right to know it, There's no excuses hiding the truth in terms of endanger national security.
N205FR@reddit
Here’s what I don’t understand: wouldn’t it be better (“save more face”) to be fully transparent, from a safety concern/accident statistics aspect?
Prior to this, China held the world record for amount of flying hours in a row without accidents, I believe the first country to reach 100 million flights without an accident (the US came close between 2009 and 2025 if you exclude cargo accidents & one person on WN1380). If they reveal the cause here, they can CONTINUE to claim this, now probably over 120 million flights now, since it wouldn’t count as an accident. As “societally disruptive” as they think it’s going to be, it would also imply there’s nothing wrong with CRM training, nothing wrong with the controls of the world’s second most popular jetliner (also 2nd in China), nothing wrong with CFM56 engines, basically nothing fundamentally wrong. Think back to Azerbaijan, when it happened we were all wondering what mechanical failure could cause all three hydraulics to fail, when it was revealed to be missiles a day later, it brought relief- in a tragic way- that told us this was not a CRM issue, not a design issue, not a MX issue, but a one off criminal event.
Basically what I’m saying is they should be more transparent as that would restore some public confidence that it’s not an aviation safety issue.
Dilated_Auntie6970@reddit
Not really, a lot was made after this happened about the progress of the home grown c919. Plenty of my Chinese friends pledged never to take boeing flights again.
bnn8217483@reddit
Apparently the word transparency does not exist in government’s dictionary in China 😅
harveyzheng88@reddit
As a Chinese I totally agree your words, very reasonable.
dakjelle@reddit
China
Transparency
Equals = lol
Tiny-Plum2713@reddit
This got very limited news coverage when it happened and is basically forgotten by anyone not in aviation at this point. It's exactly how they want it to be.
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
Isn't that a huge flaw in the FDR system? IIRC, there were other accidents where the same thing happened.
za419@reddit
New aircraft are required to have recorders that can continue without the engines (hence why we have data from AI171 in the same situation), but the 737 is old and not subject to that requirement.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It is, but the 737 has a limited power supply due to no RAT - everything essential is powered by (usually two) batteries, and if you had to pick from captain having flight instruments and navigation, radios and commmunications for both pilots, and engine igniters to work for an engine relight, or powering the FDR, which one would you pick?
railker@reddit
Jeju 2216 being the most recent one, with the seeming accidental shutdown of the wrong engine leading to a power loss and thus a dropout of data on the FDR.
A problem that's slowly being fixed, the Enhanced Airborne Flight Recorder on the 787 has an independent power supply (but only for the forward one, each being a combined FDR/CVR).
thirty-thirty-thirty@reddit
I'm curious why the FDR stops recording when fuel cutoffs go to OFF?
Only the CVR has a battery?
Independent-Size-258@reddit
If this is real it kinda reinforces the pilot suicide theory, shutting off the engines would prevent any kind of recovery after nose downing the plane.
Would also explain the complete silence by the Chinese government. Like the German wing flight this would cause mass hysteria and loss of confidence in the aviation industry greater than any mechanical failure or accidental pilot input.
KangarooWeird9974@reddit
The Germanwings catastrophy didn‘t create „mass hysteria“ or loss of confidence in aviation.
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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Independent-Size-258@reddit
That's poor grammar/phrasing on my part, what I was trying to say was this is similar to the germanwing event would cause mass hysteria regarding aviation in China. While I would argue the germanwing event fundamentally changed aviation and how it handles mental health and procedures but that's unrelated here.
China had a robust high speed rail system, where as the aviation industry there is plagued by delays due military / civil airspace ownership. With a existing alternative any loss of confidence would basically kill the aviation industry there for years.
This obviously doesn't justify their response here nor their entire political system, this isn't /r/politics. Just making sense of why they responded this way.
adyrip1@reddit
Having lived in a totalitarian regime, I can tell you people can put 2 and 2 together. The govt lying or hiding things doesn't fool anyone in China, or very few, it's mostly about face saving for the Party. They don't want to accept what happened since in Asian culture losing face is a major concern.
pjakma@reddit
Suicide is also very very much a social taboo in China, AIUI.
cRyz8@reddit
Chinese citizens are smart enough to use the method of elimination to figure out the true reason behind this tragedy, based on information given by the government. There are plenty of analysis video on Bilibili.com.
TinyGift8278@reddit
if everyone clearly knows they are lying and hiding and covering it up, how does that save face ?!
adyrip1@reddit
You raise a good point and indeed it makes no sense. But some how all dictatorial regimes act like that.
Internally, nobody in the country can publicly state the govt is full of shit, because they go straight to jail or worse. So everyone pretends they believe the lies and the govt pretends they believe that their lies are believed.
Externally, no political leaders will say the CCP is full of shit, because they risk a political crisis and economic war with China. So they pretend they don't know why the aircraft crashed and won't open the topic.
Hence, the CCP can pretend their version of the truth is true.
KirkieSB@reddit
It saves face in the official world, on paper.
A government can always downplay what people THINK or BELIEVE (they just FEEL they know something but have no proof) as conspiracy theories or something like that.
Independent-Size-258@reddit
Honest question here, did the Chinese government give another reason for the crash or just not give one?
You make a good point on not losing face having a impact here. Last I saw the Indian government is also fighting air indian pilot murder suicide flight cause too.
railker@reddit
Their preliminary in 2022 and then updates in 2023 and 2024 all just said 'We couldn't find anything', basically.
2023 they said the investigation was ongoing as the accident was 'very complicated and very rare'.
2024 was 'no anomalies found, still investigating'.
March 2025 was the last update, that releasing an interim report might "endanger national security and societal stability".
Independent-Size-258@reddit
Ah yea that's classic face saving there.Not straight up lying and say it's cause by something else or it didn't happen at all but not give any concrete response either.
Easier to say we're still looking and hope people eventually forget about it than admit a single pilot can kill hundreds of people at any time and there is nothing we can do to prevent it.
-Mandarin@reddit
Love that people are still functioning under McCarthy era red-scare logic. China is communist when it does something bad, but capitalist when it succeeds. Flawless logic there, bud
Bitter-Cheetah-2294@reddit
I kind of get it though, the point of accident investigations is to learn and prevent similar incidents from happening in the future. Pilot suicide is one of the few cases where effecting meaningful prevention is difficult. Realistically what is gained safety wise from publishing this?
TinyCopy5841@reddit
Nothing is gained from publishing any report at all. All reports (whether they include pilot error, mechanical malfunction, other human error or deliberate actions or sabotage) could be kept strictly confidential and on a need to know basis. Even if they were only accessible to industry professionals and the public public would learn nothing about the causes and the mitigation strategies, safety would not be impacted at all.
Prevention is not done by the general public and we do not have any actual need to know about the causes of plane crashes. The only reason why every report is released by western countries (even if embarrassing) is because of an attitude of transparency.
TheCatOfWar@reddit
I guess the silver lining is that pretending it never happened is slightly better than trying to deflect by claiming the fuel switches were defective and create hysteria around them.
collegefootballfan69@reddit
So who was on the plane that they wanted to eliminate?
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TankSharp9959@reddit
yeah i live in this shit hole they don't let victim's family mourn at the site and take it down from the internet
restartrepeat@reddit
What the hell does this have to do with the former president... oh
that FDR.
Right.
ency6171@reddit
Chinese citizen as in Chinese national and not Chinese-American?
Didn't know a foreigner could file FOIA to an US agency.. Interesting.
wNvJungle@reddit (OP)
It's in the FAQs. No one realized that before though...
xpkranger@reddit
TiL, thanks for that!
ency6171@reddit
Apparently foreign governments can too as well huh.
ABoutDeSouffle@reddit
I just don't understand why there are still FDR's out there which do not have a backup battery that spans something like 15min.
This is probably (along with the CVR's) the most important tool to analyze plane crashes and yet, if just cuts out if power to the engines is lost? Does it re-engage if the RAT is deployed?
FJ60GatewayDrug@reddit
Because they were certified before new rules, and new FDRs are required to have backup batteries, but that change hasn’t made it everywhere yet. I don’t know if it’s required to change or is being done at a D-check or what.
Yes it would, assuming the plane has a RAT—which 737s don’t.
Baud_Olofsson@reddit
This was a Boeing 737. It does not have a RAT.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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Funny-Bit-4148@reddit
Can anyone eli5?
SoftBreezeWanderer@reddit
turn off engine then turn left. oh no hit ground by accident (or maybe on purpose?)! big fire everyone heaven
npre@reddit
You shouldn’t explain this to a 5 year old
Dreamerlax@reddit
Based citizen. I genuinely hope nothing happens to them considering how it’s impossible to expect a truthful report from CAAC, which is overdue.
Reddog1999@reddit
The “based Chinese citizen” was probably a political call to decide to release the report
SoftBreezeWanderer@reddit
"Nothing ever happens"
skev079@reddit
No doubt it's a pilot suiside, whoever requested this and uploaded to Github is courageous for sure. Hopefully he remains safe in China.
cunt-fucka@reddit
They need to start mandating one social worker in cockpits
Themasterofgoats@reddit
That’s eerie certainly but I have to think that the case of CAAC not releasing the report has to give credence to the pilot suicide theory, which as we know, is unfortunately very possible. If there was stronger evidence to support dual engine failure in this manner why wouldn’t they be open about that? I doubt they would hold back against blaming Boeing for a design flaw
TallAndFeathered@reddit
This is textbook mianzi, or saving face. It looks bad, potentially causing a loss of trust in authority. Therefore it gets covered up, blocked, erased whatever. There is no consideration here of being open about it, cooperating with, or allowing foreign entities data that appears to tarnish a Chinese company or government oversight agency.
Saving face is not exclusively Chinese, as we’ve seen with the Air India situation.
aceofangel@reddit
Yeah great idea to blast it out so that someone else may do a ‘copycat suicide’.
Come on, think a bit first.
TheGacAttack@reddit
Your assertion is that concealing the details of a crash investigation is a good thing because it helps protect the rest of the world?
Am I understanding you correctly?
aceofangel@reddit
Yes you are. It is a murder/suicide.
aljama1991@reddit
So keeping it quiet and allowing speculation is better?
aceofangel@reddit
Of course, what's the upside to allowing speculation?
Tachanka-Mayne@reddit
The irony being that to the rest of the world it doesn’t save face, it just makes them look like an underdeveloped country.
Kichigai@reddit
I don't think they care about that, it's more about the domestic audience.
Numerous-Comb-9370@reddit
There's an element of that but overall there is no upside for them to publicize a suicide case, it won't improve aviation safety, and if the suicider want to use the incident to draw attention like is the case in many mass shootings it could very well motivate further incidents.
aljama1991@reddit
The information about the engine cut off switches is aligned with the pilot murder-suicide theory.
The inference is that one of the pilots threw the switches.
KirkieSB@reddit
The files are now also saved to the Wikipedia article of the crash: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:China_Eastern_Airlines_Flight_5735_NTSB_documents
KirkieSB@reddit
Two hours later: Files removed from Github. Why?
EasterliesWP@reddit
Because the citizen based in China would be charged with "endanger national security and societal stability".
KirkieSB@reddit
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:China_Eastern_Airlines_Flight_5735_NTSB_documents
KirkieSB@reddit
Too late, the files are out there somewhere else.
So why did he upload the files at all in the first place? It does not make much sense.
TranceForLife1996@reddit
This is almost similar to EgyptAir Flight 990 when the pilot shut down the engines whilst nosediving the plane.
Chaoshero5567@reddit
the hell?
TimWinnie8964@reddit
Chinese government: It may harm national security and social stability
So that's why 🫢 They just can't let their people know those pilots could do such things, as they can't let them know that government is illegal to exist
Independent-Size-258@reddit
This was the one that went nose down vertical at 30k ft right? Losing both engines wouldn't cause that kind of event on its own.
DasMo19@reddit
Nope, and even the windmilling engines still produce hydraulic pressure next to the automatic RAT deployment.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
737 doesn’t have a RAT
DasMo19@reddit
Ok, I’ll never fly on one these again.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
737 doesn't need a RAT.
You can move the elevators, ailerons and the stabilizer trim without a drop of hydraulic fluid anywhere in the system, and without a single amp of electrical current anywhere in the airplane.
railker@reddit
Why do you think it even needs one?
TheDrMonocle@reddit
Spoken like someone who truely knows nothing of aviation but pretends to.
DasMo19@reddit
Ok, what makes you feel better.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Ok cool. No one cares lol
You obviously can’t tell the difference between a 737 and a a320 anyway
rvr600@reddit
People quick to say no RAT but not pointing out manual reversion.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
No one is doing manual reversion going that fast. And it takes a lot of turns of the handle to actually do anything
railker@reddit
Handle? Isn't manual reversion in the 737 just ... congratulations you have no power steering now, continue as normal? Thought it's all physical connections
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Trim tab to help raise the nose.
railker@reddit
No RAT on the 737.
DoctorFrick@reddit
The data above shows the fuel switches both moved to idle cutoff, and then the pitch angle moved gradually through -20 to -40 degrees.
Charlie3PO@reddit
I think the roll through 360 degrees with peak roll rates around 50 deg/sec it's very telling. Multiple points in the data where the wheel was held full left. That's mostly why the pitch fell so much, because it was literally doing an aileron roll.
I think this data basically rules out any last shreds of doubt. Sure, pilots in the past have done all sorts of wild things with the flight controls and put planes into all sorts of unusual attitudes while disoriented, but to put both engine master switches to fuel off and then hold full left aileron? It's truely beyond doubt now.
enakcm@reddit
The vertical acceleration data is also crazy...
iamnerdyquiteoften@reddit
Agree and I assume you would cause those inputs to the controls after turning off the engines to make it very difficult for anyone to physically do anything due to the g forces - as think about it you would have all your weight on the yoke forward and left.
chateau86@reddit
Sounds like a reverse Fedex 705 situation.
Lenassa@reddit
Per wiki "CAAC said no faults or abnormalities were found in the aircraft's systems, structures or engines" so following their decision to not release a report it's unlikely to be any other scenario but murder suicide or terrorist attack.
Lyravus@reddit
The CCTV footage of that crash is nuts. Thing was in a straight 90 degree dive. What a shitty way to go.
Ender_D@reddit
Well, this is as much of a final confirmation for pilot suicide as we’ll get.
ImissTBBT@reddit
The CAAC said they will not release their report so as not to damage the moral of the Chinese people.
That has got to mean the CVR captured audio indicating this was a deliberate act.
Surely if it was mechanical or electrical or even just accidental, then releasing the report would exonerate the crew and the airline.
Not releasing the data smells of cover up
LeadingFrosty2060@reddit
习以常
External_Back5119@reddit
github repo deleted
who got backup of those emails?
bnn8217483@reddit
Some one forked it https://github.com/sixplatemizu/take_out
External_Back5119@reddit
thanks a lot, bro! but I didn't see the "emails between the NTSB and the CAAC"
EasterliesWP@reddit
Someone uploaded them to Wikimedia Commons.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:China_Eastern_Airlines_Flight_5735_NTSB_documents
wNvJungle@reddit (OP)
Thankfully someone archived it
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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torsten_dev@reddit
Perhaps, a country where discussions pilot suicide "endanger national security and social stability" has a mental health problem.
angelic_sun@reddit
but with three people in the cockpit how possible can it really be they all decided to do this?
with no attempts of recovery visible either they had to have been incapacitated or compliant which i think is unlikely honestly
euanmorse@reddit
Unless I’m missing something, there would be 2 people in the cockpit of a 737-800. If one of the cockpit crew goes to the toilet, then there is only 1.
angelic_sun@reddit
usually yes, but i have seen talk about 3 people multiple times now? i assumed a jump seat was taken, if im misinformed that is a plausible explanation though
Admiral_Cloudberg@reddit
The docs above contain some data on the crew, buried in one of the emails. There was a third pilot on the flight deck, a second officer. Captain had 7,000 hours and the FO was near retirement age with 34,000 hours, clearly a very experienced captain who had been demoted for some reason.
The flight data don't appear to show any response from the left control column when the right control column was pushed nose down, so I would speculate that the captain might not have been in the cockpit. S/O would have been in the jumpseat, hard for him to do anything from there.
Bukusuma@reddit
Have somebody in China to check up on each of the Cockpit Crew's families. See what happened to them in the aftermath of the crash. It should be very telling as to which one the Chinese government is suspicious of.
External_Back5119@reddit
bro, where to find those emails?
angelic_sun@reddit
i agree from the jumpseat it is hard to do anything, but i am suprised the data does not indicate a struggle in the entire time whatsoever, with anyone in the cockpit, that is weird in my opinion
Admiral_Cloudberg@reddit
The flight data cuts out only 15 seconds after the first abnormal inputs so there might not have been time for a struggle with the S/O. Also, as I said, the lack of inputs on the left control column that would otherwise suggest a struggle strongly indicate the captain was not in the cockpit.
angelic_sun@reddit
i agree, i am just suprised theres no sign of struggle for those 15 seconds
the captain being out of the cockpit or at the very least incapacitated seems pretty sure, but i do wonder what happened with whoever sat in the jumpseat, allthough i do not think we will get any kind of answer on that
it is also important to mention it might be made harder to do anything from the Jumpseat when you are doing barrel rolls and are pitching down 40 degrees in such a short time
Admiral_Cloudberg@reddit
It's worth noting that on the 737 the jumpseat partially blocks the cockpit door, if the captain had left the cockpit the jumpseater would have had to stand up and fold up the seat to let him by. As a result it's also possible the S/O was not seated and would have been thrown quite violently
Caligulaonreddit@reddit
first, unlikely but possible.
second, it can also be a terrorist attack. china is not that stable as it may seem.
KeyboardGunner@reddit
The GitHub link is dead.
Admiral_Cloudberg@reddit
People have downloaded the whole thing as a zip file. I have it. I don't know how to share it over reddit but it's out there, it's not lost. Thanks to the original uploader from China for their sacrifice
KirkieSB@reddit
There are many free filesharing services out there. Use Dropbox or something like that. Just post a download link to the saved zip file there.
hoppla1232@reddit
What the hell? The person you're responding to linked the file on another hosting platform, from where it was deleted within 20mins, and then both their comments were deleted from Reddit aswell? That stinks
railker@reddit
KeyboardGunner@reddit
Yeah I grabbed it too. I uploaded it and added a link in my comment.
wNvJungle@reddit (OP)
The news is spreading in China now. It seems the uploader deleted it under pressure, and I don't blame him.
airport-codes@reddit
I am a bot.
^(If you are the OP and this comment is inaccurate or unwanted, reply below with "bad bot" and it will be deleted.)
wNvJungle@reddit (OP)
bad bot
Elios000@reddit
wrong FDR bot
TeMuBeBalalaika@reddit
What a waste of technology... beep beep boop.
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
Your post has been removed for breaking the r/aviation rules.
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Not_MyName@reddit
Bad bot
cheetuzz@reddit
On the graph on p.27 of the report, it looks like the control column was pushed down (forward) with up to 80 lbs of force, as pitch angle decreased from 0 to -30°
https://github.com/haohaoh4/take_out/blob/main/report.pdf
Monocular_sir@reddit
It’s off github already. Im getting 404 error
EasterliesWP@reddit
Fork: https://github.com/sixplatemizu/take_out
Main_Violinist_3372@reddit
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the CAAC report on this basically point to pilot suicide if you read between the lines?
harveyzheng88@reddit
wNvJungle indicates OP is a CS player probably from China. 你是国人吗？我喜欢老帅哥alex，哈哈。这内容太爆了，是你发的邮件？
wNvJungle@reddit (OP)
真不是我，那位老哥现在也有点慌了
harveyzheng88@reddit
已经传到知乎上了，高低够喝一壶了
PM_meyourbreasts@reddit
How does the NTSB have data on a crash that happened in china? Just curious
Odd-Hearing2685@reddit
they helped with the investigation, it's in the report
railker@reddit
Yeah, 18 of the 33 pages of the main section of the report are all 'Here's how we unfucked the boards so the data could be recovered' after CAAC tried and failed to get any data off of them.
Same reason the NTSB had the Air India 171 boxes sent to them, they're the world pros even if they're not actually involved in the accident, and same reason I believe they were involved in the recovery of data from the black boxes of the crashed Airbus of Air France 447. In the documentary there's a clearly American dude advising the team on how to get the boards out in the lab.
talon_262@reddit
Because the incident aircraft, a Boeing 737-800, was built in the US..
International protocol for aircraft crashes is for the the aircraft manufacturer (and those of the aircraft's major systems, such as engines and the 'black box') and the investigative agency of record of those manufacturers' country of origin to be involved in investigations, especially those with fatalities and/or hull losses.
goro-n@reddit
Because the plane was made by Boeing, an American company, so NTSB is involved to see if there’s any defects with the plane that caused it
ILikeFlyingMachines@reddit
Do they use the same fuel switches as the 787?
bp4850@reddit
Whilst I'm not answering your question directly, the fuel cutoff switches in the 787 are not just on or off with one wire. The switch actually contains multiple switches (four poles for the specific examples in the 787) with multiple discrete outputs. The switch moving to cutoff also does not literally cut off the power to the outputs, instead it applies power to a different set of outputs. These include to the EEC, the spar fuel valve, the main fuel valve and a few other things that I can't remember. The control signal is sent via relays, so the current flows at the switch are kept at an acceptable level.
In short the fuel doesn't turn off because the switch is interrupted, you have to actively power the opposite poles of the switch to turn the fuel off.
Stoney3K@reddit
Does it even control any power directly in the 787? I thought it was a double-redundant digital input into the EEC (which is always powered) which only serves as an 'engine on/off request' and the EEC determines what to do with it, just like an ignition switch on a modern car.
There were a few separate contacts on the switch as well, one of them directly into the FDR.
bp4850@reddit
The spar fuel valve and the main fuel valve are controlled separately from the EEC, as I understand it the EEC can't turn the fuel on or off.
same_same1@reddit
No. An older style that accomplishes the same basic functions.
bepi_s@reddit
What happened on that flight was done on purpose... it's pretty obvious
lfcallen@reddit
Since I needed the background, here it is.
China Eastern Airlines Flight 5735 (MU5735) was a domestic passenger flight from Kunming Changshui International Airport to its planned destination, Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport in China. At 14:23 China Standard Time (06:23 UTC) on 21 March 2022,[2] the Boeing 737-89P aircraft descended steeply mid-flight and struck the ground at high speed in Teng County, Wuzhou, Guangxi, killing all 132 passengers and crew on board. It is the third deadliest aviation accident in China,[a] the deadliest in the history of China Eastern Airlines, and the deadliest plane crash in 2022.[3] The Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) is responsible for the investigation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Eastern_Airlines_Flight_5735
the_last_rebel_@reddit
it's horrible to experience doing a barrel roll without engines before death...
post-explainer@reddit
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