How easy is it to bluff 'Dual Given' as a new CFI

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spacecadet2399@reddit

What's to stop two CFI's from splitting time and refreshing each other on straight and level, climbs, turns, and descents, and logging it as dual given to boost their resume?

What's to stop anyone from logging anything? It's your logbook. Plenty of people have fudged their logbooks in various ways. It's gonna come back and bite you at some point, though.

Flight schools may or may not do very thorough logbook audits but airlines do. They look for patterns that they know have been used before to fudge numbers. They may not be able to prove that any given flight was fudged, but they can see a pattern and know if a whole category of flight time was fudged, and they don't need proof. They're not looking to report you to the FAA. They just need a reason not to hire you. A suspicious logbook is a pretty good reason.

Want to know why you sometimes see posts from people saying they can't find airline jobs despite 3,000 hours as a CFI or whatever? There's part of your answer. And they probably don't even know it.

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redditburner_5000@reddit

Nobody is going to know when you log it, but logging a lot of that will show when your actual skill level doesn't match your logged skill level. At a technical level, you're describing abuse of a flight instructor certificate which is a thing and something the FAA will punish if they can make it stick.

The feds hate liars. They hate liars more than anything else and they will crucify them with glee when they're found out.

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Worried-Ebb-1699@reddit

If you think falsification is worth the “always looking over your shoulder”. Then, You do you.

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SSMDive@reddit

Questionable at best, fraud at worst. The question would be why were you "teaching" a widebody CPT an ILS approach? Why would you be "teaching" a CFI XC? The easy answer is you would not. Baring the "student" being a complete moron, they were more than capable without you.

Would you get caught? Likely no. But you also are not likely to get caught just logging dual given every single time you fly by yourself. Heck, buy a plane without ADSB and you can log to 1500 in a few months! But both will show in your actual skills and the cost of getting caught is significant.

Logbooks are mainly on the honor system. If I found out you lied about them, I could not trust you anymore.

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Swimming_Way_7372@reddit

There are stories of an instructor sitting in the back seat giving instruction to the instructor thats giving instruction to the student flying. The whole thing is honor based and some people get away with making up a lit of time and they slip though the cracks.

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SSMDive@reddit

Worst I ever saw.... non-CFI owned a complex plane. Another person was working on PPL. So they had the student in the left seat, owner in the right for insurance, and a the CFI in the back. All three logged the time.

The student because he was "getting instruction", the CFI because he was "giving dual", and the owner because he was "safety pilot". I told the CFI I sure as hell would not tell anyone and he told me it was perfectly legal... He sent me § 61.195 (2)(i) and he told me that it had two positions, and that it didn't say he needed to be at one of them.

I sent him the Williams letter https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2018/Williams_2018_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

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Cessnateur@reddit

I suspect it would require less mental energy to simply provide the flight instruction claimed than to formulate stories and constantly wonder about whether doing otherwise will bite you in the ass one day.

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ltcterry@reddit

"Splitting time" is sort of a defined-ish thing. If you are "splitting time" then it's definitely not dual given/received.

A lot of logbook time is on the honor system. Lots of people are logging "safety pilot" time when no one is wearing the hood. Is instruction really happening in your two-CFI scenario? If not, it's not dual given/received. If the instructor didn't sign the "trainee's" logbook it's not dual given/received.

Too much dual received creates a less positive impression on a resume than solo time.

If the skills in the cockpit don't really sync with the hours supposedly in the logbook that's gonna be obvious when someone flies with you. Or looks to hire you for a job. Keep it as honest as you can. You're signing a lot of government forms saying it's accurate.

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RGN_Preacher@reddit

You’ll soon come to learn that wide body captains that don’t fly their own GA planes more than once a month are going to need lots of “refreshers”.

I’m guessing you’re in a position of needing experience to be hired to get more experience. Be creative, you can find one thing you’re better at than someone and teach them to improve in flight.

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Skynet_lives@reddit

My first dual given was to a WN captain with 25,000TT who was just getting back into GA. 10hrs of GA familiarity in his new (to him) 182.

He wasn’t even going to log it, until I told him I need to sign his logbook so I could log it.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

If a school has a dual given requirement, it's likely in the hundreds.

Good luck paying for hundreds of hours, may as well just time build at that point.

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shrunkenhead041@reddit

Why do you think an airline captain wouldn't want/need to practice ILS approaches in a light GA plane, if they are regularly flying GA? They might be current in a 737, and legal to do it in a 172, but flying approaches in one is not the same as the other.

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Ok_Witness179@reddit

When you get a new job, they review your logbook. They're very good at spotting stuff like that.

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VileInventor@reddit

Yes, all of the above. “Baron XC familiarization”. “BFR Practice” and so on.

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vanhawk28@reddit

Because as a cfi on the receiving end if you have dual received and the explanation is straight and level and interviewer is gunna look at you like you are stupid most likely.

But also a lot of log book records are very much on the honor system. Just remember all it takes is the airlines getting a whiff of falsehood and they will tear it apart with a fine tooth comb. Just like ppl try to pad time a few points on flights. Probably not going to be caught for small amounts. But if they happen to see anything to doubt they’ll check records and if you are found to be lying about your logs you’ve just kissed the career good bye. Better to it all by the book aboveboard with no hinky business.

Besides, the small amount of hours you could get that way are meaningless. What are you gunna get, 20 hours maybe that way before it’s exceedingly clear what you are doing? Thats a weeks worth of work once you finally find a job

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EliteEthos@reddit

Do you think the intent of dual given is to fluff your logbook with BS flights?

Plenty of people get hired with zero dual given. You should stick to honesty. It’ll get you farther.

How many hours do you think it should take a “refresh” a CFI on those basic items? 1 hour? Maybe 2?

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Can I just take up another CFI and 'refresh' him on straight and level cross country flight and log it as dual given?

Can I take up a wide body airline captain and 'refresh' him on ILS approaches and log it as dual given?

Obviously, both of the pilots above don't need this. I'm not a CFI, but seeing all the post on here about how it's impossible to get a job as a fresh CFI with Zero dual given, What's to stop two CFI's from splitting time and refreshing each other on straight and level, climbs, turns, and descents, and logging it as dual given to boost their resume?

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