What are these spots and why don’t newer planes have them?
Posted by Secure_Tooth_5545@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 101 comments
Posted by Secure_Tooth_5545@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 101 comments
j3pipercub@reddit
STOP CALLING THEM NAVIGATION WINDOWS FFS.
The "eyebrows" were used once upon a time when pilots were allowed to do pilot things and fly tight visual circuits in jets. This is not a totally safe practice compared to straight in long approaches so now the vast majority of operations have banned 'circling approaches'
The reason the windows are removed or not even installed in later models of 737s is because they have a bad habit of delaminating.
Tachanka-Mayne@reddit
Which operators have banned circling approaches? I know for a fact my company hasn’t, and Ryanair (one of the largest operator of 737s) have plenty of destinations where circling is often the only option.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
In the US circling is normally limited to VMC only, if there's no exemption for stabilized approach criteria you can't do one in lower visibility anyway. Since you are either on a published approach or on final by 3 miles to meet the criteria the windows, which allow a much tighter pattern, are redundant for those operators. While you may be circling, you aren't circling at 1-1.5 miles from the airport.
What does Ryanair allow?
Tachanka-Mayne@reddit
I don’t know about Ryanair specifically, but my operator has separate approach stabilisation for circling approaches- config by 500’, wings level by 300’
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
US operates basically decided that ignoring the benefits of stabilized approaches for circling made not only reduced the benefits in the worst cases but also caused people to try to pretend every approach was circuling and wasn't worth the added risk for the times it'd be needed. They did made special exceptions for specific airports but those have their own RNPs now that are included in stabilized approach criteria.
Mrstucco@reddit
Did a circling approach into PHL on a Southwest flight one time in the wee hours of the morning. It was sporty to say the least. Maybe not a true circling approach, but we flew the downwind leg and just turned straight into short final.
CannonAFB_unofficial@reddit
Meanwhile I’m here beating up the night pattern in a KC-135 like she’s a clapped out FBO 172.
McCheesing@reddit
Gear down call my base ;)
j3pipercub@reddit
I am genuinely jealous.
thepuppysmuggler@reddit
The black on the nose helped with sun glare and the spots on top are windows for celestial navigation
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Those weren't for a sextant, although early 747s and 707s had a sextant port for celestial navigation. The eyebrow windows are for low level manuevering to increase visibility across the cockpitb in a turn. Most airlines don't do real circling approaches anymore so they are redundant. You'll still see some 737s either with them or with metal block off panels where they were removed although later 737NGs and the Maxes just have solid metal there. The structure underneath is still the same though.
Any_Internet6100@reddit
The 717s still have the upper windows
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I remember this guy years ago going on a company message board about the FOs on that or another DC-9 family derivative and how they thought they could block the windows in flight and how he had to stop them because they were so important. He wanted input on how others approached it.
The conversation did not go how he thought it would.
Mrstucco@reddit
Back in the day, you’d see them blocked off with newspapers or charts.
Sparky_the_Asian@reddit
I believe in any cockpit photo of the KC-135s, the eyebrows are covered up with newspaper. Wonder why they never formally blocked them even during the giant overhaul
redchavo@reddit
Because it would cost a ton of money. Mind you, not the actual work and materials but the paperwork. Aviation bureaucracy is crazy expensive.
sargentmyself@reddit
Every one I've ever seen that still had the windows also had 5 layers of newspaper
aloha993@reddit
Why block them off? I can understand they’re not needed anymore, but what’s wrong with keeping them if they’re already there?
redchavo@reddit
The sun will burn you alive
therocketflyer@reddit
They are annoying a the sun at 37,000 feet will give you cancer far faster than you think it will. Most pilots millennial and younger take sun in the flight deck seriously because we see the senior guys with chunks cut out of their faces.
ABoutDeSouffle@reddit
Seriously? I always thought that the glass would block UV.
Js987@reddit
Windows never block all of it, same reason some people manage to get a mild sunburn after a full day in the car.
Desperate-Score3949@reddit
They do, I think it is like 2x the amount of melanoma.
JoePetroni@reddit
Maintenance- at some point they will have to be replaced.
Mongoose151@reddit
It gets sunny in the cockpit.
Cdn_Brown_Recluse@reddit
Like Philadelphia?
Aditya1311@reddit
Move past it ya jabroni
OriginalAPO@reddit
Always wanted a sunroof. Got one. Never remove the cover until after dark or rainy days.
mck1117@reddit
aluminum panels are lighter and that saves fuel
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Because a bald pilot would step off the plane with a sunburn on the top of his head.
bynapkinart@reddit
The sun makes the cockpit hot for one
Bwilk50@reddit
From what I understand the sun glare through them was a pain for some pilots. Most of time they were covered from the inside with papers are whatever. Also simplicity of the design. The less holes you don’t have to cut in a pressure hull the better. So think long term maintenance savings.
McFestus@reddit
Every component has a cost.
Kowallaonskis@reddit
Some 727's had the sextant port too! It was pretty rare and basically never used. I have an old coworker who flew them for DHL and he said a couple of this airplanes had the sextant port and a navigator's table.
Novel_Paramedic_2625@reddit
I remember an instructor broadly going over celestial nav during flight school… im so glad INS exists lmao.
Taptrick@reddit
We have eyebrow windows on the P-3 they are helpful when turning tight final flying cross-cockpit. Not something civilian airliners need to worry about these days. So they got rid of them.
nasadowsk@reddit
ISTR reading the 747 had a port in the ceiling for popping a sextant through. And a few other planes had ports on them or observation or navigation.
TweakJK@reddit
A couple of my C130Ts have them still. First time I climbed in one and saw that I said "Wait hold up is this for a sextant?"
Malthas130@reddit
You mean the fart sucker? (An O2 hose extension fits perfectly onto the port. Great for vacuuming at altitude)
TweakJK@reddit
No flippin way.
Next time I'm over stealing parts off the old Fat Albert I'm going to check that. That's the only one near me with a sextant port right now.
RAAFStupot@reddit
My understanding is the eyebrow windows are to help visibility turning towards the runway on the opposite to the pilot. In a bank, the runway may be otherwise obscured by the cockpit ceiling.
Celestial navigation used astrodomes on the top of the fuselage.
CH86CN@reddit
For circling approaches I believe. A bunch of the 717s that got retired recently had them
Stealth022@reddit
It's not on their new livery, but WestJet used to have the sun glare spots on their 737's!
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/12062981
TypicalRecon@reddit
Only one type of 737 ever got a sextant and it was the USAF T-43 which has been out of service for about 15 years.
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/115567/flying-classroom-retires-after-37-years-of-service/
LingonberryAlert8773@reddit
What’s the black & white square in the middle of the fuselage on the older plane?
WesternJob2078@reddit
Those would be windows and a nose, they’re mainly decorational.
danit0ba94@reddit
That's called the tip of the nose.
Planes still have them. .—.
SportTawk@reddit
Those spots as you call them are in fact windows!
Spud2599@reddit
Well, the ones above the windows are....drum roll please...WINDOWS!
Not sure what you're circling on the nose cone though...
Secure_Tooth_5545@reddit (OP)
Both black spots is what I BADLY circled
cobblepots99@reddit
OP, I added a comment below but figured I’d reply to you directly. The nose black spot is for rain erosion with a secondary benefit for glare. They used a more robust paint on the nose back then. Paints have improved since then as well as that paint is worse for radar transparency. Modern radars have higher class requirements than back then. Wind shear being a driver.
windas_98@reddit
The black spots are windows! At least the ones aboce the windows.
Some1-Somewhere@reddit
Older radomes had to be black for... Some technical reason?
Newer paint is radar transparent so you can paint the radome.
cobblepots99@reddit
A lot of repeat comments on the nose black spot being for glare. While that may have been a benefit, it’s really for rain erosion. The black is a more rubbery paint than the paint aft of it. Paint technology is much better now for rain erosion so it’s not as needed.
That paint is also not as radar transparent. As radar requirements increased they wanted a more transparent paint on the leading edge.
Source: 4 years at a Radome engineering and manufacturing company
Perfect_Big_5907@reddit
And that folks is what a real 737 is supposed to look like ! Not the crap Boeing is pushing on us today.
freneticboarder@reddit
I'm just waiting for this to be bastardized by r/ shittyaskflying...
mediocre_bro@reddit
Is that an old-school QR code above the over-wing emergency exit door?
Fishbulb2000@reddit
I initially thought that was what the question was about. Looks like a the paint job on an old crash test dummy.
jskoker@reddit
As others have said, the ones above the cockpit are eyebrow windows. They increased vision, but pilots and maintenance hated them, so they were removed.
The black paint on the upper side of the nose reduced glare.
The black dot on the front of the nose was special paint that did not interfere with the weather radar.
TheyCallMeGeno71@reddit
No kidding on the maintenance. So many inspections and AD’s. Just a nightmare of paperwork if there was anything ever wrong with one during an inspection
Emotional-Anteater39@reddit
Why aren’t noses black now?
BarryDM@reddit
New paints are not as glossy I’m told.
Rootsman64@reddit
Worked for a cargo airline back when DC8's and 707's were the deal back then. Those eyebrow windows literally all had newspaper solidly taped into them. I jokingly asked one of the pilots once how do they navigate without them. He looked at me in all seriousness and said 'We fly at night. We need our sleep too' before busting out in laughter.
McCheesing@reddit
boopy nose is for weather radar signal absorption
Spin737@reddit
Why you people think a 737 would need celestial navigation is beyond me.
christopher_mtrl@reddit
The 747, which first flew two years after the first 737, had a sextant port for celestial navigation. The 737 does not, but it's not exactly far fetched to think the same would be on the 737.
Spin737@reddit
Different missions. A-7 first flight was around the same time, too. That doesn’t mean they had a sextant.
Spin737@reddit
The 747 was crossing oceans and doing remote continental ops.
DashTrash21@reddit
Got ourselves a big shot!
737-200's routinely flew to remote and gravel strips in the far north in a time before IRS and GPS.
Spin737@reddit
And that’s why they used NDBs and VORs.
ObscureMoniker@reddit
What gets me is that all the people repeating the celestial navigation rumor don't think about all the awesome fun banking maneuvers the pilots would need to do to get a good look straight up through the eyebrow windows.
British_Rover@reddit
I don't know why but I find the baby 737 adorable.
Jackriecken@reddit
Those are called "eyebrow windows", another use for them is formation flying. The 737 is an evolution of the Boeing 367-80 concept (707 concept) and the cockpit section is basically the same which is why eyebrow windows stayed. Newer jets no longer have them due to increased complexity and maintenance cost.
WEAPONSGRADEPOTATO2@reddit
because you touch yourself at night
MoccaLG@reddit
josedgm3@reddit
People already stated what are those in other comments.
I use them to identify very old airplanes quickly. Both things are not longer used because regulations and technologies changed.
These are the car tail fins of aviation.
FancyMac@reddit
Seems like that airplane is missing a door....
Mediocre-Catch9580@reddit
The spots on the roof near the wing.
Would that be the weighted center of the plane?
ilikeithot360@reddit
Center of gravity- point of maximum lift. It is not the same as center of balance. Center of balance makes the airplane unflyable.
pessimus_even@reddit
I'm more interested in the white and black box on the center of the fuselage
ilikeithot360@reddit
That marks the center of gravity on the air frame. It is where the aircraft balances aerodynamically , but is not the same as center of balance. Center of balance, where the distribution of the aircraft’s weight is equal front to back along the fuselage, would make the airplane un flyable because it usually results in a tail heavy condition.
tavareslima@reddit
The two spots on top are actually windows. They called it eyebrow windows. Iirc, it has something to do with the possibility of performing stellar navigation and thus it doesn’t have much utility these days, so many older 737’s got them removed and new ones simply don’t have them.
The nose was black to reduce sunlight reflection into the cockpit. I don’t know why that stopped, maybe it just wasn’t effective
Ancient_Narwhal_9524@reddit
The eyebrow windows are so you can keep the runway in sight when circling.
The 737 wasn’t designed to do ocean crossings where they would have needed a navigator.
The Boeings that did have a provision (707, 747) had a port in the cockpit ceiling that could be opened to accommodate a periscope sextant. I’m told they also came in handy to get rid of cigarette smoke.
ThirdSunRising@reddit
aviation in the 1970s was lit
King_TUT_of_pugs@reddit
The black was actually rubber to protect the fiberglass underneath from damage during flight, hail, snow, and rail. This was back when fiberglass was weaker and constantly eroded which would let water in and would cause mass corrosion. Hence we put the rubber on top to prevent erosion.
Great_Specialist_267@reddit
Eyebrow windows were an option on 737’s right up until the most current ones. They were a carry over from the 707/C-137 which shared a cockpit structure and were really useful for mid air refuelling (not a regular option on civilian aircraft but an option on the E-7 and P-8).
slothrop516@reddit
P-8 has no windows like that for aerial refueling that might just have been a navy choice though
jetserf@reddit
The area on the nose used to be where some periodic maintenance occurred, including oil checks. Later these checks moved directly to the engines themselves after a rash of job related injuries and lawsuits. /s
YogurtWild@reddit
Maybe they are upgraded with new equipment?
okflyer00@reddit
Windows. The brow windows became optional in the 80s, I believe after the 737 Classic models (those with the CFM 56 engines). Also optional became the airstairs. The latter is found on the P-8 Poseidon though, a current production 737 derivative.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Ryanair also has air stairs on their Max 8200s, they may have the rear stairs too
jjamesr539@reddit
The black spots above the windshield are more windows, which used to be installed for better visibility during a turn as it can be difficult to see from the opposite side of the flight deck while in a bank. They were nixed in later designs because they didn’t help very much, turned the flight deck into more of a greenhouse, and changes in how a plane was flown along with avionics improvements made them redundant. The black nosecone is just paint, it’s an aesthetic choice, not a functional one, while the black paint between the nosecone and windshield is meant to reduce glare.
kylleo@reddit
nose on the 737 was a glare shield, still present on some somewhat modern aircraft but like mostly russian, ukranian, and chinese. the one near the tops are actually windows, they were used for both better visibilty during tight turns and celestial navigation.
Secure_Tooth_5545@reddit (OP)
Bfdi/ii fan spotted
kylleo@reddit
im not even in the osc community anymore legit
i just kept the pfp partly cause im too lazy to change it
but yeah cool i guess
confusedguy1212@reddit
I could be wrong but I think the windows on the roof of the cockpit of original 737s were there for celestial navigation? Maybe I’m wrong.
MBT70@reddit
Celestial navigation requires a clear 360 degree view from my understanding, besides that the early 737s apparently didnt have the necessary equipment for it - at least not in production. The most common sentiment I've seen is that they were somehow helpful in steep banked turns or pattern navigation? Not sure.
hillcountryflying@reddit
the black application over the nose was to reduce glare. notice how shiny the rest of the plane is. No longer needed.
Those squares over the windshield are also windows, to assist with visibility in a turn and maybe even celestial navigation if that was required.
mr_bots@reddit
The windows that everyone pointed out went away because navigation has improved so much they weren’t needed and glass is heavy. Though funny enough a new build 737 max will still have openings in the cockpit paneling for those windows even though they aren’t there.
ZX_StarFox@reddit
Large circle is paint. Small circle is the eyebrow windows, used for navigation pre gps/glass cockpits
frix86@reddit
They look like camera tracking marks.