Too much heel due to old sails?
Posted by klerksdorp_sphere@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 47 comments
Today I was out with my 23 ft boat (swing keel), 18 to 25 knots of wind, very gusty. Had the second reef (of 2) in, with full jib (it's a 100% jib, quite small).
Despite usually going out in 5-15 knots, I felt quite comfortable with the conditions, however I believe the boat had too much heel most of the time. Even lost control of the rudder once.
And I wasn't very fast either, 4.5 to 5.5 knots, while I often hit 6 in 10 to 12 knots of wind.
Since I already had the second reef in, I was wondering what I'd do in 25-30 knots or more. I'd probably have to go jib or main only, which certainly wasn't the boat designer's intent.
Now my sails are quite old and baggy, so I was wondering if that might be the reason for a lot of heel with not much speed?
Quint87@reddit
Ease the main sheet when you start to heel too much for comfort.
DadBodFacade@reddit
Yes... And,
Technically, first was the traveler if you have one.
Second, if you are easing the mainsheet be sure to tighten the vang prior to easing the sheet so the sail stays as depowered as possible. Twist will increase power until you begin to luff.
Of course, this all assumes youve flattens the sail as much as possible with outhaul/foot and halyard/luff tension even in while reefed.
Acrobatic_Show8919@reddit
This is flat out wrong. Pun intended =p Leech tension powers the sail, twist spills power.
Turbulent_Act77@reddit
He's actually flat out correct. I'd let him trim main while we race offshore, because he actually understands it.
Flat means depowered. Period. Twist adds power, until you twist off so much the top is spilling off then it depowers and floggs the sail.
Vang, sheet, outhaul + Cunningham (or reef line) and backstay all flatten the sail. You can keep them all hard on and drop traveler to reduce heel and further reduce power. It's a better option than easing, to a point. Once you hit the bottom of the traveler you are out of options and have to ease, but keeping the sail shape and adjusting only the traveler means you can rapidly power back up if you want to, and you will be flatter and faster.
Acrobatic_Show8919@reddit
OK buddy, you sure whaling on the vang with a baggy blown out dacron main will depower more than twisting it off? Keep in mind hes not sailing the Medcup.
Turbulent_Act77@reddit
Depends on the boat and controls, but assuming he can put on backstay hard and bend the rig (pulls the belly out of the sail), Cunningham and halyard to pull the draft forward, outhaul to flatten the foot, then applying both vang & sheet to tighten the leach while dropping traveler will be both flatter and faster than twisting off the sail, and it won't flog the crap out of it either.
Now if your boat doesn't have those controls, or the sail is so absurdly blown out they aren't able to flatten it, your only option is to twist off the sail and flog it.
If you are lacking proper sail control to do these things on your boat, then you are sailing with a limited set of tools than many other people are sailing with, and so yes twist and flog is your only option, but that doesn't mean it's a good one that you should be striving for or advising someone else of, just because you don't have better options available to you.
Acrobatic_Show8919@reddit
Bro, quit with the chatgpt replies.
Turbulent_Act77@reddit
That is a 100% human answer, from someone who's got tens of thousands of miles sailed, with over half of it racing, including time as helmsman on a 69ft all carbon mini maxi, and skipper of a 75ft luxury custom race yacht.
But sure, dismiss nearly 2 decades of high level and. International competition experience and skill, because it sounds like AI to you...
Acrobatic_Show8919@reddit
coughbullshitcough
Raneynickelfire@reddit
No, literally everything they just said is backwards.
Don't correct somebody on something you yourself don't know.
nmperson@reddit
Every single thing you’ve typed is incorrect.
SVLibertine@reddit
Like, seriously. I had to re-read that post a few times before going WTF.
Acrobatic_Show8919@reddit
Clearly the pro sailors jobs are safe feom AI until the clankers log some hours on the water.
DadBodFacade@reddit
I think my perspective is the difference between AI slop and actual sailing physics which don't change whether you have new or old sails - it's just easier to get adjustments to work with newer less stretchy sails
From what I understand (40+ years of performance & cruising sailing) TWIST actually powers up a sail in most conditions where there is wind gradient. Whereas LUFFING depowers a sail. Of course as you ease the sheet, the luffing will start at the head and go to the foot of the sail which makes people think twist depowers a sail.
You can see this principle at work someone does actually eases a main in puff and the boat heels more initially (powering up) and then as the sail begins to luff you see the heeling decrease as the sail actually depowers.
Acrobatic_Show8919@reddit
Now there are two bots replying? Jesus Christ, enough.
DadBodFacade@reddit
Beep Bop Boop.
Enjoy your notification.
Acrobatic_Show8919@reddit
shakes fist angrily
SVLibertine@reddit
*Laughs in 🤖 *
DadBodFacade@reddit
Wait. So in a gust you:
Then
To decrease heel?
** BTW. I'm discussing vang sheeting, keeping the leech closed as you ease angle of attack and basically extending the workable distance of your traveler. Takes a lot of tension, but works well until you start dipping the boom in the water at which point you have too much sail area up.
Just easing the main and vang is just going to flog the crap out of your main.
nmperson@reddit
If we’re vang sheeting, then why does it matter if i ease traveler or main first? When trying to depower, tightening the vang will decrease twist. Twist depowers the sails in high winds.
DadBodFacade@reddit
Because the traveler is often easier to adjust than the main sheet. Though you make a point, you can do either. I just start with the traveler.
Turbulent_Act77@reddit
Cruising sailors often never learn how to properly use a traveler, likely because many cruising boats don't have one, or if they do it's so small it can't be dropped enough to depower or change much. The ones I've known that never learned from racing only used it as a fine tune for weather helm, and rarely at that.
Also for boats that have in mast furlers, it's not like they can effectively manipulate the sail shape to adjust for conditions, the only options likely available to them are sheet and furl.
DadBodFacade@reddit
Yeah... My current boat doesn't have a traveler, and I miss it. Loved working the traveler to essentially steer my old boat in a good breeze upwind. But, the family wanted nicer beds & more ice cream, so no more traveler for me. Though, the cockpit is much easier to walkaround now.
Turbulent_Act77@reddit
You should study performance sail trim more, every single thing he wrote was spot on correct. It would seem to me that he has been or is a main trimmer on successful race boats. This is the difference in skill between an average cruising sailor and a competitive racer / trimmer.
Raneynickelfire@reddit
What in the world are you talking about....that's literally backwards.
Who told you that? That's very, very wrong.
TriXandApple@reddit
With a 110% genoa and 2 reefs, you arn't going to have much authority with the main. Only option is to pinch up in the gusts.
Secret-Temperature71@reddit
A possible cause, often overlooked, is a shrunken main bolt. The main is sewn to the bolt, the bolt shrinks making the sail a bag. I have known this to happen in other boats and it happened on mine. Some sailmakers call it BS, others say it is real.
My PERSONAL experience, on a 515 sq ft main. Sailmaker said it was real but could not address it for some reason. I laid it out tied off the head, put a cable pulley on the foot and hauled until it came loose. The rope ran up the sail 6”. I had to cut the seizing first. Made a noticeable difference.
Turbulent_Act77@reddit
It's a real thing with old bolt rope sails, not much of a thing with modern sails on any type of track system. Also depends on the bolt rope material.
Generally prevented by making sure you are hoisting to the black band that's on most masts to indicate full hoist position every time, it usually requires a lot more luff tension than cruisers generally crank on.
Senior-Jellyfish-452@reddit
Some great comments already but also check the position of your reef lines at the aft end of the boom. Make sure that they are in position that ensures the mainsail is flat when the reef is in. As having them a couple of inches too far forward will result in a reef that is baggy or deep when you want a flatter sail. And ensure that when you put the reef that the rear reefing line is fully wound in. As this has the same effect roughly as tighting or easing the outhaul.
H-713@reddit
First, even decent sails can be "baggy" if you're not set up correctly. Sail controls (and yes, your halyards are sail controls whether you like it or not), rig setup, jib lead/clewboard position, etc. all make a real difference in how controllable the boat feels. Some boats have more adjustability of these controls than others, but all have some. There are lots of online resources on how to use sail controls for depowering - the racing oriented ones are usually the most useful.
Second, bolt ropes. They shrink. Sometimes a lot. Both luff and foot. This makes the sail ridiculously baggy. It's not hard to cut the bolt rope stitches (usually at the tack) and ease that tension. This is standard practice on racing sails once they're more than \~2 years old.
If the sails in question are really worn out, then just replace them. At a certain point it's not worth fighting with.
Then-Price-5314@reddit
Bagged out sails make you heel more, yeah. If you can afford it, new sails will change your life.
The noise can be annoying if they’re not trimmed right, though. 🤣
I * miss sailing
jaxn@reddit
did you adjust your rig tension? you likely also need more tension on your rig.
J109@reddit
Is it possible your bulkheads or chainplates are moving?
pdq_sailor@reddit
Yes its entirely possible.. Dacron sails bag out (stretch as they age... full sails develop more heeling force than flatter cut sails do...
RobHealey222@reddit
Halyard tension/Not feathering or dumping the main. I assume you were going upwind? because loosing the rudder on any other point of sail means you were overpowered with too much sail up, or were not easing the mainsail in the gusts. I have suffered with baggy sails, but assuming you were feathering the main in the gusts, and going upwind, then the baggy jib is the most likely culprit. Or you had a fat person sitting to leeward.
Upwind is all about the jib/genoa. In the gusts the main can be loose and flapping , as long as the jib is hauling the boat forward and it won't do that well if it is baggy. The windier it is the tighter the jib halyard should be, that helps to flatten the sail. Once a tight halyard stops flattening the sail it's time to have it recut, (if the sailcloth is in good condition) or you need a new one.
DadBodFacade@reddit
You also may find the "slow" feeling of the boat is just due to size, weight and keel configuration.
20+ knots of wind is a lot for most smaller. Swing keel boats, especially as the sea state rises. Not unsafe necessarily, just not what most boats of these size and configuration are designed and optimized to sail in.
I have to imagine a swing keel is kept light to make it easier to swing, this it won't provide the same righting moment of a fixed keel.
johnbro27@reddit
Baggy sails move the draft aft, get more heel and less drive.
Note when you reef--you should have to reef both sails. If the boat is balanced without any reefs, and you reef only the main, you've moved the center of effort forward so you will get less weather helm and possibly lee helm. Many many years ago, I had a Ranger 26 with hank-on jib but it had reef cringles on the foot so it could be reefed along with the main.
katrk824@reddit
Idk about the reefing having to be done on both sails… my boat will sail best on 15-25 with a single reef in the main and full head sail. 20+ and then I do a second reef and will furl the headsail to 80-100% (unfurled is like 110%) depending on gusts. Balance is boat specific.
the-montser@reddit
Yeah that’s completely dependent on the boat, but even as a rule of thumb, it’s generally wrong.
In general, most boats will sail better with progressively smaller headsails (to a point of course) before reefing the main.
But it really does depend on the boat.
FirmEstablishment941@reddit
What point of sail are you comparing between the two scenarios? A beam reach is going to be your fastest point of sail and then it’s down to the design and resulting polars of your boat as to what you’ll hit on other points of sail.
As others have mentioned sail shape is a factor as is spilling wind. Too much heel and you’re losing power.
Waterlifer@reddit
Probably a combination of factors. Hull shape and windage play a role including things like a SUP on deck or lifeline netting. Too much weight (stuff) aboard contributes. Sails certainly can too and if they're older or obviously in poor shape then new sails will help.
Some (many) 23' boats just don't do well in 25 kts though so I would not assume that new sails will solve everything.
jh937hfiu3hrhv9@reddit
Time to break out another thousand, and another thousand, and...
FredIsAThing@reddit
Yes, and you'll point better with new sails as well.
ReddityKK@reddit
G27’ light boat. Getting new main and Genoa significantly reduced heeling.
throwleboomerang@reddit
There are a lot of potential reasons to go slow in heavy wind, here's what I think could be causing trouble:
I'd recommend evaluating sail trim first (since it's the cheapest option!) then I'd see about finding a used #3 or similar jib, then maybe a newer, flatter main if all else fails.
get_MEAN_yall@reddit
Yes when the wind picks up you want to flatten your sails, especially the main. If you have sails that are so old and stretched that you can't, you'll have a lot of parasitic drag and the boat will heel excessively.
daysailor70@reddit
Yes, that is the source of your excessive heel. The higher the wind, the flatter you want your sails, as well as releasing the traveler a bit to depower the boat. Baggy, blown out sails can't be depowered and you will feel rather then go fast.