Thinking about moving to Southern Europe
Posted by Reasonable-Dust-8268@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 19 comments
My partner and I have been living abroad for more than 10 years. We haven't particularly loved any of the countries we've lived in so far (that includes UK, France and Netherlands). We've been in Netherlands the longest, but there's a few things we've never been able to really adapt to, so we're thinking about moving. We both have EU passports, speak fluent English, French, enough Dutch (not that I imagine it would help anywhere else), Italian and some Spanish. My partner has a remote job so he would be the main income source for the first while, I however would need to set up again my studio wherever I go (I organize creative workshops).
Would Italy or Spain be a good option? My mother was Italian so my Italian is ok, but all the Italians I know always complain about their own country and that it's especially hard for anyone with a creative job.
I don't know Spain at all on the other hand, and I am thinking of spending a month there before moving, but I don't think it's enough time to really get an idea of what the country is like. We have definitely been spoiled by some good things here in northern Europe (like the efficiency of certain things), but I don't think that's reason enough to spend all of one's life in the same place.
We haven't considered other countries because of the language barrier mostly, but maybe Portugal would also be a possible choice?
Any insights or suggestions are appreciated!
Int3lligent-Pen1s@reddit
good news, eu passports skip the entire visa nightmare, so this is purely lifestyle and cost. From andalucía, about 4 yrs in, i think spain wins on weather, food, and cost outside madrid and barcelona. Valencia and málaga already have huuuge expat communities so you skip the lonely first 6 months. Italy is gorgeous but the paperwork even for eu residents is a sport. portugal got around 30% pricier in last 3 years and locals are visibly fed up. i tjhink about month confirms you don't hate a place, not that you'll thrive, so pick 2 cities and split the time. Lol italians complain about italy, but every spaniard i know complains about spain constantly. weight that against "is the food incredible." most of us picked the food.
Reasonable-Dust-8268@reddit (OP)
Ah thanksx for the info. Lots of people have different insights into Spain, this is very useful. I realise no place is perfect, of course! And language will be top priority no matter where, after struggling with Dutch I hope everything else won't seem as tough.. I think the financial aspect is always the scariest just because, as someone else mentioned, moving always costs money. We're being mindful of trying to set us up so that we can move without too many worries, security nest on the side, a remote job, etc, but we're trying to get a feeling for what will give us the best chances to succeed and also where we will like it more, lots of things to process. Good food helps, as always. Thanks again!
Cold_Acadia_847@reddit
Portugal? Não. Vai para Espanha ou Itália.
MigJorn@reddit
I think Spain is a good option, as long as you move to a region that only speaks Spanish (unless you’re up for learning two languages instead of one). But don’t expect things to be much better than in France or Italy, maybe actually worse in terms of bureaucracy, affordable housing, services, wages, etc.
Reasonable-Dust-8268@reddit (OP)
Oh, maybe I should have specified. I do like France, we have friends there and we left mostly because I was offered a good job elsewhere years ago. We did consider it now, however France is a bit expensive, and Spain, or Italy would allow us to live a bit more comfortably, especially considering that I would have to start my activity again from almost zero, so we'd be relying on one income for the beginning.
If you have experienced both , I would actually really be interested in a comparison between Italy and Spain!
Bobzeub@reddit
Catalonia could be a nice compromise if you already have a handle on French , Catalan is understandable-ish .
But that’s also adding another language into the mix .
I’d for Girona . I personally don’t like Barcelona. Mostly because the tourists ruined the city.
Reasonable-Dust-8268@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into it!
iqqiiqqiiqqiiqqiiqqi@reddit
Have you thought of Ticino? Italian speaking with Swiss efficiency.
dallyan@reddit
Ticino is sooo boring.
number1alien@reddit
Nah, any place that combines Italian food with Swiss-quality ice hockey gets my vote.
Tardislass@reddit
Honestly, it sounds like you will never be happy anywhere and are looking for a utopian. Spain is an amazing place to vacation, and to retire. Being a working age person who needs unemployment is far harder. Lots of Spaniards moonlight because one salary isn’t enough to provide for a family. Housing is insanely expensive for the crappy construction you get. And finally Spaniards work long hours. Siestas are a thing of the past.
The happiest expats in Spain are retired and not worrying about a paycheck. You should definitely come and live as a resident for 6 months. Dont sightsee every day or go out to eat. Find a flat in a residential area instead of the center of town. You may love it or not.
Puzzleheaded-Sun7418@reddit
I’m Spanish, I have lived for many years in the Netherlands and now I’m back in Spain. What do you like from there and what do you expect from life in the south? Lifestyle and rhythm is very different.
One thing that sucks comparing both countries is bureocracy. Here you need to: 1. Speak the language 2. Understand how to navigate the country and how things work
And even though it’s slower than in the Netherlands, where almost everything is very clear and done with an app.
I don’t mind since for me all the other things are better than this so good overcomes the bad so to speak. I also know how to navigate it and one thing that works better is explaining your problem, talking to people patiently and usually it gets resolved one way or another (bending rules is easier if you have a weird case and it’s not contemplated, unlike the Netherlands where rules are very strict). But in general is slower and less efficient in that regard.
Reasonable-Dust-8268@reddit (OP)
I do appreciate efficiency and have probably gotten spoiled over the years on things like filing taxes and getting responses quickly from the Belastingdienst, or setting up an appointment with any public service with a click. But I do get frustrated with the rigidity of things sometimes, it's very hard to get people to understand and operate outside of the box. And sometimes that also ends up translating in long waiting times because that's just how things work and bending the rules is just not an option. I like the internationality of the place I've chosen, which offers access to a very diverse environment (and that's pretty important to someone like me with an artistic background), but I think that could also be true if I moved to/near a big city in Spain?
Puzzleheaded-Sun7418@reddit
It depends to be honest. As I said for me the lifestyle is very different and it matters a lot. I do enjoy the collective life over the individualistic. I enjoy the meal times and slow rhythm sometimes (although we go much faster everywhere since I live in a big city and we are all the time rushing). I enjoy nature and weather and food a ton more. I enjoy feeling included easily and spontaneously and especially not have to book in the agenda two months in advance.
But it is less international oriented and if you don’t speak the language forget about integrating fully.
Reasonable-Dust-8268@reddit (OP)
Haha, I totally get the 2 month in advance thing. I don't think I ever got used to it. I think learning a country's language is a bit of a given anywhere, but I totally understand your point, coming from Netherlands where you could in theory get by with just English for a pretty long time. There are some similarities in what you say compared to Italy, or at least the memories I have of my times spent there. Do you think it would be hard to set up an art studio in a big city once the language is mastered? Are people interested in creative activities and workshops?
Puzzleheaded-Sun7418@reddit
There are people interested in creative activities of course, big cities here are much bigger than any city in NL. For me coming from Madrid, Amsterdam felt like a village, in terms of options of what to do or food or anything really. But I think living of art is hard no matter where
Reasonable-Dust-8268@reddit (OP)
Ah, yes it's a hard living. Thanks for your insight!
lluluna@reddit
Yes, definitely spend some time in a country before considering moving there. This is the minimum that you can do. Also, watch out that spending time as a tourist in a country like Spain is a very different experience as living/being a resident. It's still better than no experience at all.
The previous reply mentioned 2 very important things and I totally agree with him/her. That is learn the language, especially when you need to deal with the local government as a resident and learn how the system works... For everything. The system can be vastly different from English-speaking countries.
Puzzleheaded-Sun7418@reddit
Very true about your last paragraph too! Salaries and cost of life is very different. I basically lost money coming back and I live way more frugal now because of that.