Why doesn't bank angle warning state if it is left or right bank?
Posted by akunal@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 36 comments
I was watching Sriwijaya flight 182 video by Mentour, and one of the comments asked why is it that the audible warning only says "bank angle" and not "left bank angle" or "right bank".
Is there a reason why that is the case? I watched lots of crash videos where the pilot turned to the side already upset because of no situational awareness.
This seems like a too good to be true solution, what am I missing?
Pillow_connoisseur@reddit
In a stressful situation, I can see it raise a question of whether it’s an instruction or indication of status. For instance, “Left bank” in principle is an indication of state, but can easily be misinterpreted as “bank left”.
Not saying this is a concrete reason for why, but I can see this being a potential reason.
Popular-Rock6853@reddit
It would be even more confusing for non-native speakers.
FZ_Milkshake@reddit
Yes, safety instructions need to be absolutely unambiguous, TCAS (and to my knowledge other communications/signals to the pilots) is giving advisories of what to do, it never states a condition that the pilots have to work out themselves.
Stoney3K@reddit
"PULL UP!" on the GPWS is also pretty unambiguous.
lochiel@reddit
As anyone who has biked on a multi-use path can tell you, the phrase "Coming up on your left" will cause most people to jump to the left, directly in front of you. (It doesn't matter how far away you are; it's always a jump and never something useful like "do absolutely nothing")
SelectAirline7459@reddit
People tend to drift in the direction they look. They look towards the wider part of the path they’re on. So that means when they look back they move towards the center of the path.
Some don’t look back, they just move towards the closer edge, which is the safest thing to do. So “coming through” is probably a better call if they’re close to an edge.
If they’re in the middle, just slow down until they head one direction or another.
If they’ve got ear plugs or headsets with music turned up to 11, well, then just hope for the best.
erlendursmari@reddit
Exactly my experience. I now always just say "bike behind you" and people will mostly do the correct thing with that information.
old_righty@reddit
“On your left”
SuperFriendlyAv8or@reddit
As a runner I second this. I've started just saying "coming through!" and letting them make the decision 😂
Ok_Airline_9182@reddit
"Bitchin' Betty" in the F-18 gives pretty direct an unambiguous commands like "ROLL LEFT, ROLL LEFT." So there are definitely systems where it can work.
Far-Yellow9303@reddit
Firstly I agree with your assessment, secondly I love that username
purduepilot@reddit
737 has a ROLL LEFT and ROLL RIGHT voice aural with an red arrow on the PFD for extreme bank angle situations.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
You'll hear BANK ANGLE first and if you keep going it'll then say ROLL LEFT/RIGHT.
purduepilot@reddit
Correct.
retiredaaer@reddit
Because that is why God invented the Attitude Indicator and the FAA requires pilots to be able to see.
akunal@reddit (OP)
In an ideal scenario where the pilot has perfect situational awareness and is able to read their instrumentation, of course there won't be a need for it. But the accidents I saw, for example the one linked in post, was about pilot not even looking at their instruments. [Time stamped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3-tqHr5CME&t=1415s]
I'm not a pilot so of course I can be wrong. But airline safety should be engineered in a fool-proof way, even a perfectly trained pilot might just freeze up (yes I know pilot selections and trainings are really hard, but no system produces 100% results).
Tagging also u/BeenThereDoneThat65
Icy-Ninja-622@reddit
That is a very good point. Often, the problem isn't simply freezing up, but responding in an impulsive way, instead of an intelligent way. When there is a risk of banking in the wrong direction in response to "bank angle", training to bank right when you hear "bank right" might produce a better response.
CollegeStation17155@reddit
Over 40 years ago (long before TCAS), I helped a grad student do a project for a human factors class simulating several options to avoid a collision using a heads up display showing an aircraft symbol superimposed on on a "desired glide path" crosshair centered on the display that they would be following to an airport with simulated collision craft appearing on the display. Issuing a verbal "COLLISION" gave the longest response time, highlighting the collision craft was a bit better, but the BEST option was to move the plane symbol away from the crosshairs in a direction that the (nonprofessional) "pilot" test subjects would instinctively respond to put it back on target away from the collision.
Icy-Ninja-622@reddit
That is interesting, thank you for sharing.
BTW I'm reminded of the difference between Soviet and Western attitude indicators. The Soviet indicators pivot an aircraft symbol relative to a "horizon" that is horizontal relative to the aircraft, and the Western indicators keep an artificial horizon aligned with the actual horizon.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Well I am a pilot. And I don’t need bitchin betty telling me which direction of bank I need to be concerned with. I have instruments that I can read.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
The downvotes are all non-pilots that think they know better
Icy-Ninja-622@reddit
The problem is that sometimes, even experienced pilots may respond in impulsive ways that make the problem worse. It's not that they're generally stupid or incompetent, but that their mental state at the time impairs their performance. Please at least watch the part of the Mentour Pilot video linked above which shows what happened.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
Boeings do say ROLL LEFT/RIGHT.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Because I do t need to know the direction when I have three attitude indicators on the flight deck showing me the bank angle
AvroAvery@reddit
Guy in the video clearly did
Stoney3K@reddit
As well as a giant attitude indicator right in front of you through the 4 panes of glass separating the aircraft from the rest of the atmosphere.
SrPoofPoof@reddit
737 MAX introduced a “ROLL LEFT” and “ROLL RIGHT” annunciation, as well as a red roll arrow that prompts on the PFD. Was really helpful in the sims doing upset recovery.
Positive_Culture_330@reddit
Because they feel it and the see it.
747ER@reddit
You now have 178 seconds.
flightist@reddit
And now you’re dead.
22Planeguy@reddit
My experience is that "bank angle" warnings are more of a preemptive warning intended to get the pilot to check the attitude. There is (at least on some jets) another level where there is a "roll left/right" command that is instructing you what to do. It's pretty tough to get to the point where that warning is going off though.
doom_pizza@reddit
737 max will point in the correct direction to roll.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
NGs too, if equipped with the Enhanced Bank Angle Warning.
flightist@reddit
Only if your airline bought the silver-tier or above safety equipment package.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Sky pointer. Hate them
beautiful_world81@reddit
Interesting. Actually a very good question. I would like to know the same :D thanks