Ukraine Faces Risk of Tougher EU Loan Terms to Get Aid Payouts
Posted by EsperaDeus@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 82 comments
Posted by EsperaDeus@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 82 comments
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Lmao.
And to think that someone still believes Ukraine wouldn't be left with nothing but debts at the end of the conflict. No, no, keep fighting. A couple more years and hundred more billions in debt later you will surely win.
CubeOfDestiny@reddit
well war do be expensive, personally I'd always choose western debt over russian soldiers pillaging, slaughtering and raping their way through my country, although being from Poland i might be ever so slightly biased to prefer western dominance over russian one
SujiroKimisuge@reddit
Russia's demands for Ukraine before the war were mild as fuck. Ukrainians were led by the nose to the abyss, courtesy of Nuland with muffins lmao.
Kuro-Dev@reddit
Besides that germany had magnitudes more of debt to re0ay and managed because other western nations helped germany rebuild after the war, heping creat what we now call "the economic wonder of germany"
We need to have a proper plan dor ukraine after the war for good investment and rebuilding. Maybe we can help elevate them to a germany or at least france-like level.
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Dude, the situation between post ww2 Germany and Ukraine is vastly different.
Germany was heavy industrialized country with booming population. So it made sense to invest in it because you knew it would bring large yields. Ukraine has a dwindling and old population that will become even smaller when borders are opened, war-torn industry and infrastructure, most of which wasn't even up to modern standards and most of which was in Donetsk region, which is lost.
With current demographic trend the only way for Ukraine to even have a chance to rebuild to at least pre-war level, they would have to import a lot of migrants. And Ukranians are, I don't if you know, are rather conservative nation. So most of them would probably hate it, which in terms would produce even more conflict.
And all of that's beside the ridiculous amount of war-related trauma amongst the populace.
There is no plan. There is no possibility of elevation. Europe just wants ukranians to keep wearing russia and when they no longer can, they would be discarded as a useless tool.
SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit
It's not our job to tell Ukraine to surrender though is it?
Or does your script say we are at fault by enabling them to kill russians? Do you think Ukraine wouldn't gut its society economically if not for EU funds?
jka76@reddit
But we are not obliged to finance them for free either. Think ww2 Land Lease program. UK afaik repaid that debt pretty recently. And UK charged Czechoslovakia for all military equipment used by their soldiers who were fighting for UK. Even for pilots defending Britain in Battle of Britain. I can understand charging for other soldiers, but for Battle of Britain guys equipment? Without those pilots it would not be won. Britain did not have own ...
SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit
The money is ultimately backed with the russian frozen assets which under union law can't be released until reparations are paid. Only ongoing interest of 1-3 billion per year is paid by the EU
Lopsided-Selection85@reddit
The money is backed by wishful thinking that the winning side in a war is going to pay reparations...
SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit
The frozen assets and money are already in the EU, waiting for a legal casus belli. The package deal conditions included this.
Surely you don't think we're expecting russia to wire us the 90 billion € peacefully?
Lopsided-Selection85@reddit
Of course not. But we tried to grab the money and failed to find a way to do it. If we do, Russia will simply sue us in 3rd countries and recoup their losses from assets in those. Even keeping them frozen is not forever, once the war is over Russia will again sue us arguing that there is no legal reason for indefinate freeze and it amounts to confiscation. And that is actually true.
jka76@reddit
Retroactive law in conflict with international one. But hey ... And there is only 150b in frozen assets. Loans from eu to ukraune are already close or over that sum.
Azzagtot@reddit
It's by your support Ukraine is still fighting by kidnapping man from streets.
They can't protest, their press is state controlled. All they can do is hide for month and years in their appartments or with their relatives.
Ukrainian men are not willing to fight for their country. They hide or desert.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_desertion_crisis
If not for your "support" this war would be long over and ended like Georgian war. And be sure, that when this war will be over, many Ukrainians would hate you all for what you did to their country.
SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit
It's a war, what do you honestly expect? that Ukraine bows down to russia who has repeatedly shown to be unreliable?
You can't blame the government for trying to keep Ukraine sovereign.
And still, I said that even if EU funds failed to be approved, Ukraine could slash more governmental functions to continue fighting, deepening the humanitarian crisis even further.
your account just keeps parroting russian talking points in about how russia is actually the victim and how everyone else should just surrender, hope you're getting paid at least.
Azzagtot@reddit
I expected that Ukraine would surrender and agree with Russia demands. Which would be better for the interests of their people.
But Ukrainian government is not acting in best interest of Ukrainians, since it's a puppet government that puts acts in the interests of it's masters while ukrainian citizens can't change anything or simply leave their country, in case they are males.
Do you want an example of successful country that surrendered to Russia? Georgia.
Take a peak at history and you will find Finland.
Kuro-Dev@reddit
My brother in christ, germany was far from "industrialised" by the end of the war. They got bombed to oblivion and had to be rebuilt from the ground up. Just look at this map-porn: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1o3sbhi/percentage_of_destruction_of_german_cities_at_the/ There was no industry. but you're right, it is different. Ukraine still has industry left. They can also earn money by selling Armaments to other european countries and probbaly even middle eastern ones. Their anti-drone capabilities are highly sought after right now. Those profits can in part be used to service loans and also be reinvested to diversify their economy. Properly managed I can see multiple ways for ukraine out of a potential debt spiral.
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
What you fail to take into account is that industry at the time was far less advanced. Right now to make your industry at least semi-valuable for the rest of the world you need a lot more money and a much competent workforce. Germany managed to hop back up precisely because of that - it took much less time and resources to build and industry back then.
Your second mistake is that you don't undress the elephant in the room - population. Ukraine has around 28 million people left in it(not my bias, their officials say so), most of whom are older generation. It will become even less when borders are opened and people start leaving the country. Be that out of fear of another war, however unlikely, or because their business and livelihood was destroyed by war and they would rather try something in the much more stable country.
Drone tech is not something only Ukraine can produce. It is much simpler to lease a technology and build a production line in Europe, like they already do now. They don't need Ukraine or ukranians for that.
Ukraine lost Donbass and its coal. It lost Mariupol and Azovstal, that produced most of the country's steel. It lost the most densely populated and industrialized part of the country. The only port they have now is Odessa, that is constantly under russian bombardment. Their energy generation is so bad, that even now their officials admit that rebuilding to pre-war level would take a decade, forget possible improvement for new industry.
Their fertility is the lowest in Europe and I doubt it would change dramatically when the war is over. The amount of people with war-related trauma would be frankly astonishing.
There is literally no way for Ukraine to return to pre-war level.
75bytes@reddit
lol sure mighty stronger than ever europe will just discard their biggest counter to russia. real talk
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Why invest in Ukraine if you can use this money to invest in your own military? They would probably use some technology, but they don't need ukranians for them.
75bytes@reddit
two cons: your people go war instead and go war having NO experience. strong alliance is really no brainer
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Well, they already do that - they let ukranians weaken russia. After that they would have more time to prepare their own military. Investing in Ukraine to rebuild it is futile.
75bytes@reddit
very questionable logic. abandoning ukraine will make russia stronger and increase europe defence costs accordingly to compensate. plus the reasons above, own people will die and no veteran expertise. that’s pretty simple game theory situation with obvious optimal strategy
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Not sure what is your point here. Make it a forever war? What exactly is "not abandoning Ukraine"?
75bytes@reddit
guarantee russia deterring with funding and actions, achieve stable status quo
chillichampion@reddit
You surely didn’t have any problem with your country invading, pillaging and destroying Iraq along with the Americans. You guys are such eternal victims.
CubeOfDestiny@reddit
ah yes, I am a pole, therefore I have to be fine with everything poland has ever done, what next? you'll accuse me of supporting polish conquest of lviv?
NoPriorThreat@reddit
vs do not fight and get genocided?
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Did the people of Crimea and Melitopol get... genocided?
NoPriorThreat@reddit
You mean the one hiding in a theater and getting bombed by russians?
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Did they "get genocided"? Or are you confusing with the ones hiding today afraid of being snatched by the TCC?
NoPriorThreat@reddit
yes, they were genocided https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_theatre_airstrike
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Genocide is a big word for what you are implying here.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Genocide is made up of such acts. Russians keep continuosly bombing civilian home with an aim to eradicate ukrainian people.
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Keeps? Have you seem the civilian casualty number of this war?
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Yes. Everyday, there is civilian home bombed. Do you deny it?
AlbertoRossonero@reddit
Everyday there is hundreds of drones, thousands of artillery rounds, FABS, and dozens of missiles being fired. With the amount of air defense and electronic jammers being used I would be shocked if there wasn’t some kind of collateral damage.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
yet, there is almost no civilian deaths on russian side.
Eexoduis@reddit
It’s only relatively low compared to conflicts like those in Sudan and Gaza because of the competence and relative power of the Ukrainian army. Hamas and the RSF and the Malian junta have nowhere near the same funding.
19osemi@reddit
Russia is kidnapping Ukrainian children and taking them to Russia, they also bombed a cancer ward if I’m not completely wrong. That’s to say being in debt is a million times better than being occupied by Russia
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Russia removed kids from the frontline, yes. But did Ukraine release a list of the ones they say it was kidnapped?
The cancer ward happened in 2024?
Chipay@reddit
Yes, the Crimean Tatars
Azzagtot@reddit
Is there a genocide going on?
sakezaf123@reddit
Nope, there is a genocide going on. It's extremely easy to find information on all the ukrainian children russians are literally stealing.
Large_Awareness_9416@reddit
Yes, they should've left them next to the active warzone. It's better to let the children die as a ukranians that let them live in Russia.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
they can send them to their families in ukraine instead.
Azzagtot@reddit
And they are doing just that, but you would not know about it, since you live in a propaganda bubble.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
you are living in propaganda. Do they at least pay enough for spreading it?
datNomad@reddit
Lmao. Dude, don't you have a better argument?
NoPriorThreat@reddit
I will gladly provide a counter-argument to his argument. However, he didnt provide any yet.
datNomad@reddit
You must be blind then. His argument is that Russia is returning evacuated kids based on requests from their families. You can verify this information, search for news articles. Instead you just accused him of spreading propaganda, while doing it yourself.
Your flair fits you well. EU flairs are known for being brainwashed propaganda enjoyers.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Except they are not, they returned at max few hundreds, while keeping at least 20 000 in Russia. Moreover, you don't create a catalogue of kids for "adoption" if you intend returning them to their homeland. If they wanted they could send them all to Ukraine and stop bombing their fellow citizens in their homes. They didnt do anything like that.
datNomad@reddit
Provide reliable proof please. When last peace talks took place in Turkey, Russia requested a list of "kidnapped" children. Ukraine provided list of 300+ names. Where the number 20k came from?
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Source is his other link. He himself provide a source for 20k.
datNomad@reddit
Duh. Have you even opened this link? It doesn't have any kind of prove for this number. Just vague statement without any source.
As I said, dude, you're propaganda enjoyer. It's your choice, but please, don't push this bullshit on sane people, we're not on r/worldnews.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
I do. It is my cousin killed by russians in Ukraine.
sakezaf123@reddit
Jesus man, just look at any reporting on how russians looking to "adopt them" can browse through the list. It's a human market, not help for children.
I know you've got to repeat the propaganda bullshit, but come one, these are literally kids sold to be maids/slaves.
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
Please tell me you see the irony?
sakezaf123@reddit
You can just look at literal russian state media's reporting on the website russian parents can choose, or the interviews they do with russians keeping children clearly unwell, or the militant russian nationalism they are being fed at the occupied ukrainian territories. Russia isn't hiding it, I'm not sure why you westerners try to. Sure, a lot of people don't bother checking russian state media, but you just can.
KronusTempus@reddit
So far you’ve failed to provide any actual evidence. Ukraine claims that tens of thousands of children were “kidnapped” but only provided a list of 300 or so children who were all moved to Russia away from a war zone because their parents either could not be found or were killed.
But I’m sure that a state of the art eurobot such as yourself would prefer that Zelensky got his little hands on some future soldiers to be kidnapped into a van and shipped off to the front to die. So when will you comply will Zelenskys request to transfer Ukrainians who fled to Europe from the war back to fight? Hes waiting
Luesal2@reddit
The reason i know you are full of shit is precisely because i can understand russian.
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
I'm sure it was accidental but you seem to have completely abandoned your previous point about 'children being sold as slaves/maids'
Azzagtot@reddit
Bring us this site.
Luesal2@reddit
The only one spreading propaganda bullshit is you. Takes no time to investigate what's really happening and it's surprisingly what poster above you is talking about.
crusadertank@reddit
Then why don't you go and tell the UN this information that you have?
Because the UN investigation reported no genocide against Ukraine. So if you have information that they didn't have access to then you should tell them
The UN team said it can amount to a war crime, not genocide
Azzagtot@reddit
But for some misterious reason Russia chose to not leave kids in active war zone and evacuate them. They are also being returned, if their parents or relatives are alive and provide needed documents, proving relativity.
https://commission.europa.eu/topics/eu-solidarity-ukraine/bringing-ukrainian-children-back-home_en
While Ukraine claims thousands of stolen kids, they for some reason provided list of only 339 of them during talks in 2025.
https://mindev.gov.ua/en/news/mizhnarodna-spilnota-zaklykaie-rosiiu-nehaino-povernuty-ukrainskykh-ditei
NoPriorThreat@reddit
oh, you are one of those "Bucha didnt happen"
crusadertank@reddit
UN investigation team
Not everything bad has to be a genocide
NoPriorThreat@reddit
— Dmitry Medvedev, 15 June 2022
— Maria Zakharova, 19 June 2022
— Pavel Gubarev, 11 October 2022
— Head of the Duma Committee on International Affairs Leonid Slutsky, 12 December 2022
crusadertank@reddit
Go and read the link I provided. The UN team saw all of these comments and said that whilst concerning, it does not mean they there is a genocide going on in Ukraine
So its funny that you can quote all the random people you like, the UN has said its not a genocide even with them
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Random people? Really? Calling Ukrainians non-humans is not directed at Ukrainians as an ethnic group?
Again, I said get genocided. What do you think happens to Ukraine when they capitulate?
crusadertank@reddit
Point to where any of the people you quoted called Ukrainians non humans
Medvedev said that the Ukrainian state should not exist
Zakharova said that Ukrainian borders will never be the same
Neither talk about Ukrainians as an ethnicity but only the state. That's not genocide
Gubarev was speaking about those who fight against the DPR
He doesn't speak about Ukrainians as an ethnic group, not genocide
Slutsky talks about Nazis. Now unless you are implying all Ukrainians are Nazis, which Slutsky specifically doesnt, he is not talking about Ukrainians as an ethnicity and this isn't genocide
Please go and learn what genoicde is because none of your quotes support your point
And yes random people. To prove genocide you would have to show that the Russian government is actively trying to eliminate the Ukrainian population.
And as the UN themselves said, this is not the case. The UN looked at all of this and said there was no genocide. You are just wrong calling it as one
Yeah and you are wrong. There has been no genocide in Ukraine from either side
My sister in law is Ukrainian living in Russia, Crimea specifically. Life is ok there and they do well. Even if the whole of Ukraine were to disappear to Russia, life would be largely the same for most people.
NoPriorThreat@reddit
Gubarev was speaking about all ukrainians.
There were some jews living in Nazi germany even during Holocaust.
crusadertank@reddit
Source: I want it to be true
Gubarev was speaking about those who opposed Russia. Russians who supported Ukraine he was against, Ukrainians who supported Russia he was not
It was on political not ethnic lines as would be required for genocide
Plus as a note on him in general. He was a gunner for an anti-aircraft system at the time he said that. Hardly anyone in power. But despite this he was arrested for extemism
If you want to pick somebody representing the plans of the Russian government, he is not the one to choose
You asked me a question and I answered. Based on my personal experience Ukrainians live just fine in Russia
You are welcome to show documents showing how the Russian government plans to genocide Ukrainians, but you should show it to the UN first as they are agreeing with what I am saying, not what you are saying
Lopsided-Selection85@reddit
Shh... We stopped accusing Russia of the BS genocide a while ago.
Accusing Russia of a genocide makes people look into the real genocide that is being perpetrated by our middle eastern ally. So we don't do it any more.
ChefCurryYumYum@reddit
War is expensive but I'd rather my country take on debt than live under Putin's rule.
BasicBanter@reddit
That’s normally what happens. The uk was basically bankrupted by the end of ww1 & ww2
Chipay@reddit
You understand that the proposed changes would increase government income, right?
Removing preferential VAT rates for self-employed Ukrainian nationals is in line with the EU and IMF goal of creating a more open world economy.
The EPP's goal has always been the ascension of Ukraine into the EU, and that won't happen until Ukraine opens its markets. With this, Ukraine gets the money it needs, the EU gets the reforms it wants and the ruling party can argue that their hands were tied when they implement this deeply unpopular reform.
Upset-Basil4459@reddit
Ukraine's debt to GDP recently hit 100% and is only going to keep getting higher as the war goes on. Even if they somehow don't lose the war, they're going to be crippled for decades from this debt
Chipay@reddit
Europe's debt was massive after WW2 and it rebuilt just fine, the trick is in the loan conditions. The IMF and EU loans are much more favorable than what any nation can normally get.
SeniorExamination@reddit
And it's going to be in Europe's best interest for Ukraine to remain strong in order to deter Russia from trying again in a decade.
Chipay@reddit
A decade is a long time. It's hard to imagine the state Russia, Ukraine and the EU will be by then.
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