Ukraine Faces Risk of Tougher EU Loan Terms to Get Aid Payouts

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Large_Awareness_9416@reddit

Lmao.

And to think that someone still believes Ukraine wouldn't be left with nothing but debts at the end of the conflict. No, no, keep fighting. A couple more years and hundred more billions in debt later you will surely win.

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CubeOfDestiny@reddit

well war do be expensive, personally I'd always choose western debt over russian soldiers pillaging, slaughtering and raping their way through my country, although being from Poland i might be ever so slightly biased to prefer western dominance over russian one

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SujiroKimisuge@reddit

Russia's demands for Ukraine before the war were mild as fuck. Ukrainians were led by the nose to the abyss, courtesy of Nuland with muffins lmao.

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Kuro-Dev@reddit

Besides that germany had magnitudes more of debt to re0ay and managed because other western nations helped germany rebuild after the war, heping creat what we now call "the economic wonder of germany"

We need to have a proper plan dor ukraine after the war for good investment and rebuilding. Maybe we can help elevate them to a germany or at least france-like level.

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Large_Awareness_9416@reddit

Dude, the situation between post ww2 Germany and Ukraine is vastly different.

Germany was heavy industrialized country with booming population. So it made sense to invest in it because you knew it would bring large yields. Ukraine has a dwindling and old population that will become even smaller when borders are opened, war-torn industry and infrastructure, most of which wasn't even up to modern standards and most of which was in Donetsk region, which is lost.

With current demographic trend the only way for Ukraine to even have a chance to rebuild to at least pre-war level, they would have to import a lot of migrants. And Ukranians are, I don't if you know, are rather conservative nation. So most of them would probably hate it, which in terms would produce even more conflict.

And all of that's beside the ridiculous amount of war-related trauma amongst the populace.

There is no plan. There is no possibility of elevation. Europe just wants ukranians to keep wearing russia and when they no longer can, they would be discarded as a useless tool.

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SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit

It's not our job to tell Ukraine to surrender though is it?

Or does your script say we are at fault by enabling them to kill russians? Do you think Ukraine wouldn't gut its society economically if not for EU funds?

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jka76@reddit

But we are not obliged to finance them for free either. Think ww2 Land Lease program. UK afaik repaid that debt pretty recently. And UK charged Czechoslovakia for all military equipment used by their soldiers who were fighting for UK. Even for pilots defending Britain in Battle of Britain. I can understand charging for other soldiers, but for Battle of Britain guys equipment? Without those pilots it would not be won. Britain did not have own ...

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SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit

The money is ultimately backed with the russian frozen assets which under union law can't be released until reparations are paid. Only ongoing interest of 1-3 billion per year is paid by the EU

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Lopsided-Selection85@reddit

The money is backed by wishful thinking that the winning side in a war is going to pay reparations...

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SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit

The frozen assets and money are already in the EU, waiting for a legal casus belli. The package deal conditions included this.

Surely you don't think we're expecting russia to wire us the 90 billion € peacefully?

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Lopsided-Selection85@reddit

Of course not. But we tried to grab the money and failed to find a way to do it. If we do, Russia will simply sue us in 3rd countries and recoup their losses from assets in those. Even keeping them frozen is not forever, once the war is over Russia will again sue us arguing that there is no legal reason for indefinate freeze and it amounts to confiscation. And that is actually true.

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jka76@reddit

Retroactive law in conflict with international one. But hey ... And there is only 150b in frozen assets. Loans from eu to ukraune are already close or over that sum.

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Azzagtot@reddit

It's by your support Ukraine is still fighting by kidnapping man from streets.

They can't protest, their press is state controlled. All they can do is hide for month and years in their appartments or with their relatives.

Ukrainian men are not willing to fight for their country. They hide or desert.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_desertion_crisis

If not for your "support" this war would be long over and ended like Georgian war. And be sure, that when this war will be over, many Ukrainians would hate you all for what you did to their country.

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SpudroTuskuTarsu@reddit

It's a war, what do you honestly expect? that Ukraine bows down to russia who has repeatedly shown to be unreliable?

You can't blame the government for trying to keep Ukraine sovereign.

And still, I said that even if EU funds failed to be approved, Ukraine could slash more governmental functions to continue fighting, deepening the humanitarian crisis even further.

your account just keeps parroting russian talking points in about how russia is actually the victim and how everyone else should just surrender, hope you're getting paid at least.

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Azzagtot@reddit

I expected that Ukraine would surrender and agree with Russia demands. Which would be better for the interests of their people.

But Ukrainian government is not acting in best interest of Ukrainians, since it's a puppet government that puts acts in the interests of it's masters while ukrainian citizens can't change anything or simply leave their country, in case they are males.

Do you want an example of successful country that surrendered to Russia? Georgia.
Take a peak at history and you will find Finland.

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Kuro-Dev@reddit

My brother in christ, germany was far from "industrialised" by the end of the war. They got bombed to oblivion and had to be rebuilt from the ground up. Just look at this map-porn: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1o3sbhi/percentage_of_destruction_of_german_cities_at_the/ There was no industry. but you're right, it is different. Ukraine still has industry left. They can also earn money by selling Armaments to other european countries and probbaly even middle eastern ones. Their anti-drone capabilities are highly sought after right now. Those profits can in part be used to service loans and also be reinvested to diversify their economy. Properly managed I can see multiple ways for ukraine out of a potential debt spiral.

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Large_Awareness_9416@reddit

What you fail to take into account is that industry at the time was far less advanced. Right now to make your industry at least semi-valuable for the rest of the world you need a lot more money and a much competent workforce. Germany managed to hop back up precisely because of that - it took much less time and resources to build and industry back then.

Your second mistake is that you don't undress the elephant in the room - population. Ukraine has around 28 million people left in it(not my bias, their officials say so), most of whom are older generation. It will become even less when borders are opened and people start leaving the country. Be that out of fear of another war, however unlikely, or because their business and livelihood was destroyed by war and they would rather try something in the much more stable country.

Drone tech is not something only Ukraine can produce. It is much simpler to lease a technology and build a production line in Europe, like they already do now. They don't need Ukraine or ukranians for that.

Ukraine lost Donbass and its coal. It lost Mariupol and Azovstal, that produced most of the country's steel. It lost the most densely populated and industrialized part of the country. The only port they have now is Odessa, that is constantly under russian bombardment. Their energy generation is so bad, that even now their officials admit that rebuilding to pre-war level would take a decade, forget possible improvement for new industry.

Their fertility is the lowest in Europe and I doubt it would change dramatically when the war is over. The amount of people with war-related trauma would be frankly astonishing.

There is literally no way for Ukraine to return to pre-war level.

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75bytes@reddit

lol sure mighty stronger than ever europe will just discard their biggest counter to russia. real talk

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Large_Awareness_9416@reddit

Why invest in Ukraine if you can use this money to invest in your own military? They would probably use some technology, but they don't need ukranians for them.

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75bytes@reddit

two cons: your people go war instead and go war having NO experience. strong alliance is really no brainer

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Large_Awareness_9416@reddit

Well, they already do that - they let ukranians weaken russia. After that they would have more time to prepare their own military. Investing in Ukraine to rebuild it is futile.

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75bytes@reddit

very questionable logic. abandoning ukraine will make russia stronger and increase europe defence costs accordingly to compensate. plus the reasons above, own people will die and no veteran expertise. that’s pretty simple game theory situation with obvious optimal strategy

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CluelessExxpat@reddit

Not sure what is your point here. Make it a forever war? What exactly is "not abandoning Ukraine"?

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75bytes@reddit

guarantee russia deterring with funding and actions, achieve stable status quo

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chillichampion@reddit

You surely didn’t have any problem with your country invading, pillaging and destroying Iraq along with the Americans. You guys are such eternal victims.

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CubeOfDestiny@reddit

ah yes, I am a pole, therefore I have to be fine with everything poland has ever done, what next? you'll accuse me of supporting polish conquest of lviv?

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