Insane request from airline
Posted by Busy-Agent-8380@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 167 comments
What’s up yall. I’m an instructor who got onboarded to the envoy cadet program last spring. I absolutely love this company, got benefits, a bonus and even a Veterans Day challenge coin so I’m absolutely in love with what this company is and want to end up here for my full regional time.
Last month I hit my ATP hours and emailed to start onboarding. I did my drug test and all the paperwork and last week I got a call. The call was from Envoy saying the Captains Review Board reviewed my file and think I need to get 100 hours of Actual IMC time before I can start training… I thought it was surely a miscommunication but I confirmed the other day that that’s exactly what my file says. My resume is nothing crazy impressive. Failed instrument stage 1 and 2 for ground knowledge and the instrument checkride on the oral for not knowing what contact approach minimums were (this was during COVID so all training was online so my ground knowledge was TERRIBLE) I did fail my multi checkride on the single engine approach also (had to shoot a VOR approach for the first time ever in the plane because of expired database and didn’t switch my CDI in time)
So obviously my resume isn’t too impressive but I have friends who are going through training with multiple instrument failures and on the flight portion too and didn’t have any issue with CRB.
Every coworker and envoy friend has a jaw dropping reaction to what I’ve been told. Has anybody been told something crazy like this recently? I’m in Oklahoma so the amount of time it would take to get the 70 actual I need would be 1-2 years. (I’m a gold seal instructor so my school only wants me to teach CFI so I can’t even get IFR students)
Does anybody have any recommendations? Should I see if I can ask and try to go through CRB again with an updated resume showing my gold seal and success as an instructor? It’s just so frustrating watching people with similar resumes go off to the airlines while I’m being told my ground knowledge was bad when I was 19 (currently 24) so I need to fly IFR the next 2 years when there’s captains there that don’t even have that time
Any advice would be greatly appreciative, I love this company and really don’t want to apply elsewhere but it seems it’d be easier to go to republic and then just jump over
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
Nobody with less than 100 hours IMC should be anywhere near the flight deck of a transport aircraft. 1,500 hours and a dribble of IMC time is a perfect example of what’s wrong with so much of the pilot training pipeline. I agree with the review board.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
There’s guys flying 175s with less than 20 actual time right now unironically
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
Yeah, ask me why I don’t fly the regionals.
Weasel474@reddit
They've got a pretty dang good safety record. Many people get into a transport category jet with little actual, but a ton of sim practice and instrument instruction. Not the same thing for sure, but it's worked out pretty well.
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
It’s worked out pretty well so far because the older captains are holding down the experience needed to keep these R-ATP Specials from killing their pax. Wearing foggles in Cessna operated by a school that doesn’t allow flights when the weather is IFR, or when the winds are greater than 12 knots, and allows cancellations for personal minimums, does NOT prepare a pilot to split cells in a jet in a work environment where personal
BigC208@reddit
100 hours actual is pretty hard to get instructing. Even on the East Coast. All my flights are at night and under IFR, at 9 or 10,000ft. Fly about 500 hours per year and maybe 10 hours actual. I only log the time I’m in the soup. On most IMC days that’s maybe .2 out of a 1 hour leg. Basically the climb out and approach. You need to get a job with a FedEx Feeder flying a Caravan in the North East, flying cancelled checks or medical specimen for Labcorp and Quest Diagnostics. Good luck.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
Is flying canceled checks still a thing? I had a lot of friends build hours doing that back in the early '90s. But I thought that went away with scan machines and such
BigC208@reddit
Scratch flying cancelled checks. I thought there were still a few operators out there like Airnet and Bank Air but they’re doing other things now.
boobooaboo@reddit
Hey bud, airline flying is all about instrument flying.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Very aware of that, love instrument flying. Just think the request of 100 actual is crazy when there’s captains that don’t have that time
boobooaboo@reddit
Your captains almost assuredly have accrued 100 actually in their 1000 121 flying. You’re the one who’s demonstrated that instrument flying is a struggle, that’s your reality.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Every captain I know at envoy has yet to hit 100 actual so no…
boobooaboo@reddit
Yikes
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
How much total time were you at then?
boobooaboo@reddit
I was instructing in Seattle. I had 100+ actual before I even hit 750 total time. Maybe even 500.
zendil13@reddit
Damn y’all be hitting 1500 hours and only 30 actual to apply for an IFR flying job and it’s normal? Crazy looking in from the mil side.
skylaneguy@reddit
Don’t you guys fly C17s with like 300 hours TT?
zendil13@reddit
Fair enough. Just commenting on the disparity between the hours requirement and the tiny proportion of IMC
Urrolnis@reddit
But their training is so much better in the military! That's why they crash into airliners!
Prestigious-Bend1662@reddit
I had no idea one could go to a regional airline with multiple check ride failures. Back in my time in USAF pilot training, every flight was graded, not just the 6 check rides we had in the year leading up to receiving our wings. A couple of unsatisfactory flights and you were out, sent to nav school or home. A busted check ride was likely the end of pilot trading as well. Even after one was at your assigned aircraft, a failed check ride, for anything other than some not flying related detail (failing to safe an ejection seat or maybe a failure for missing a paperwork item, likely meant your chances of a career in USAF flying was over ( no promotions).
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Envoy doesn’t even know who you are. Go some place else that isn’t trying to let you go.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
But I love her
anonymous4071@reddit
You know in the movies when the pretty popular girl asks the kid no one knows to the prom, but it’s all really just a mean prank….?
This is kinda like that.
f1racer328@reddit
But you can’t fix her.
anonymous4071@reddit
My only advice is to stop simping for a company that doesn’t give a shit about you.
mentholpod86@reddit
Bluey knows ball
anonymous4071@reddit
It’s Bandit….
Shapoopie86@reddit
This advice goes for all companies—legacies, cargo, LLCs. None of them give a rat turd about you.
cincocerodos@reddit
I always remember "it's not personal, it's just business." which is a nice way of saying "they'd throw my family on the street the second it made financial sense for them."
throwaway_tiredcap@reddit
Do these WO benefits still come with all the strings attached? Back in the day I was regional-agnostic. But plenty of my peers signed on the dotted line like a boot signing that 25% car loan for a new mustang.
So while not tethered to MQ like the OO and YX contracts, a CFI is going to be bound by the terms and unable to pay them back. I suspect this post is vibe check and a reality check. OP isn’t in the queue at any other regional, it would take a long time to even get in anywhere else, a 5 year commitment (after whatever waiting period) wouldn’t be worth it, and the 70 hours or IMC would come sooner than another airline CJO and date.
The timeline to 70 of actual IMC is challenging. Assuming he could fly somewhere where bugsmashers and IMC are compatible, and log 2 solid hours a day of actual, that’s 35 days. Even if he could do this 1 day a week consistently (presumably has some time off between all his CFI candidates), that’s 8 months. And the bigger hurdle is the cost. A CFI isn’t gonna have $15k just sitting around.
The situation is unfortunate all around. As dumb as it is though, somehow getting 70 hours of actual is going to be quicker than trying to apply everywhere else and see if he gets any other CJOs. Not cheaper, and not easier, but it’s quicker. And circumvents whatever payback terms he’s bound to from his MQ benefits.
OzrielArelius@reddit
they gave him a coin tho...
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
The coin was sick tho fr
Headoutdaplane@reddit
Imagine how many free drinks you could get by throwing that baby on a bar!!! Everyone that didn't have theirs would have to buy
Computerized-Cash@reddit
Easy to say when you’re already at an airline. Gotta take and work with what you have in this environment.
shansta7000@reddit
But OP doesn't have this so he doesn't have to take and work with it.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Ok so OP will just have to wait 2 years until they have 100 hours of actual.
Yeah, great advice
Computerized-Cash@reddit
Yeah if you take it at face value he should definitely find something else. He definitely needs to try and fight it in the meantime.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
They’ve already made up their mind.
Telling someone to get 100 hours of actual is like telling someone to go spend $15k or else they won’t hire you. Because you can’t do “safety pilot” time with someone else. They want OP to leave on their own.
TornadoTim60@reddit
Hey how convenient! From OPs other comments, sounds like they gave him exactly $15K (and flight benefits) to be in the cadet program.
anonymous4071@reddit
how else are you supposed to take it…?
the guys is better off spending time and money applying elsewhere and doing some interview prep than doing whatever it takes to get 100 hours actual IMC.
because at this point he doesn’t have anything.
Computerized-Cash@reddit
Not sure about you but I’d be feverishly trying to fight it or getting a better alternative out of HR rather than 100 IMC.
anonymous4071@reddit
Kneecapping yourself because you “love this company” is exactly what you shouldn’t be doing in this environment.
Apply anywhere else.
Obsessing over a regional of all places is just gonna lead to disappointment.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
The ERJ-175 is just so nice, I don’t want to end up in PSAs shitty CRJs
Outrageous-Wolf-2599@reddit
Lmao grow up dude
Moseiselybrothers@reddit
You should, it sounds like you need to learn to actually fly a plane in actual shit conditions and that is exactly what a CRJ will do for.
anonymous4071@reddit
This guys needs a couple years in the deuce canoe
SMELLYJELLY72@reddit
good lord the crj won’t kill you
anonymous4071@reddit
but…but… no autothrottles! air stairs! no under wing engines! oh the travesty!
TornadoTim60@reddit
What an absolutely garbage take.
Is this a shitpost?
To quote a song from 2011: “I don't see how you can hate from outside of the club, you can't even get in!"
pattern_altitude@reddit
Would you rather chase an airframe or a job that the company actually wants to give you?
anonymous4071@reddit
It’s a regional jet, who cares. If you want to waste your time, that’s your choice.
You’re basically making the decision to waste years of seniority and money over shiny jet syndrome at a regional. You should really have a good long think about that.
Also, leave my precious CRJ alone. You want to learn how to really fly a jet, fly a CRJ. You’ll benefit more from it than you can even imagine. Leave the lazy flying for the legacies.
MeatServo1@reddit
100%
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
And you calling this request “insane“ shows just how thoroughly unprepared you are to bear the responsibility of ferrying dozens of souls safely to their destinations through every kind of weather under the sun.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Just calling it insane because it’s the first time it’s been asked from my program in a decade. No problem with wanting better pilots in your pipeline but definitely hard request for a guy in Oklahoma who only teaches CFI students
TheVillianOfValley@reddit
Got your CFII?
No_Advice_9017@reddit
Way to post about an extremely specific situation that will easily get traced back to you- Enjoy looking for a regional job elsewhere
Moseiselybrothers@reddit
Honest advice: So you failed two instrument stage checks, then the instrument checkride, plus another one before ever getting to an airline, and you want to fly the 175 because its easier? Man I would say take the hint and learn to fly in some real conditions, before you end up on line somewhere and shit really hits the fan and you kill some people. You say your record is not "too impressive", I'd say you are pretty darn lucky you got the invite at all these days. Even if you get hired somewhere else I would invest in myself to get my actual IFR skills up so you don't do yourself even more damage later by either washing out of training or smashing up a plane or worse.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
I have 400 hours of instrument given and 140 hours of total instrument bro. IFR does not scare me and I am fully proficient in IFR flight. I just teach CFI initial and there’s not much weather in Oklahoma😭 Never said the 175 was easier, it’s just a great aircraft and I know I’m going to be solid wherever I end up.
burnheartmusic@reddit
Ah yes the true colors of OP present themselves. Bro. IFR does not scare me. I know I’m Going to be solid. You clearly can’t see it but you have some hazardous attitudes going on here.
Airlines also take personality into the equation. You may be a good pilot but either weird or way too much of a bro (which I’m leaning towards here). Good luck.
Urrolnis@reddit
If IFR doesn't scare you, just a little bit, in a piston single, you're not giving it enough respect.
burnheartmusic@reddit
Exactly what I got from this too. “Bro” sounds overconfident, especially after failing so much on instrument.
Urrolnis@reddit
Instrument won't even give you warning that its about to kill you. It just will. Very little room for error. You should be scared of it. At minimum, a healthy dose of respect.
Instrument should be treated like a zookeeper in the lion's exhibit. You're safe, but you've got to respect the wild animal that's allowing you to still breathe.
geekmug@reddit
Instrument given is assumed to be VMC and you aren't wearing the foggles.
One of the biggest limitations of building all your hours as a CFI is that you never fly anywhere on a schedule and demonstrate that you know how to accomplish that with real WX. Instead, about 10% of my logbook is actual IMC in the en route environment. Your job is a significant limiting factor to you building experience that makes you an obvious hire.
mattguthmiller@reddit
This is a terrible attitude to have. And how do you have 140 hours of instrument if not 100 of actual? Did it just take you an insanely long time to get your instrument? That would be another huge red flag. Flying IFR in actual is a very different experience than flying under the hood too. It sounds like maybe you need to move somewhere other than Oklahoma if that’s your concern and just get the experience anyone flying for an airline should have anyway. It’s never about checking boxes, it’s about airmanship.
Urrolnis@reddit
There may be some of that time building under the hood with another student involved here. In which case, were either of them ACTUALLY under the hood the entire time?
Moseiselybrothers@reddit
No offense, because we've all been there, bro, but sitting next to someone wearing foggles is not the same as flying cargo at night by yourself. And your whole post comes off like you need some humility and to get out there and do some real world flying, which is a bit shocking considering your record so far.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Acting like im here claiming to be the best pilot in the world. Everybody has to start somewhere and the entire point of cadet programs is to hire instructors from good schools to start building experience
Huge_Analysis_1298@reddit
Starting to see why they don't want to hire you now. Thank God you weren't my instructor with this attitude. Swallow some humility, realize you ARENT proficient in IF yet. If you were, you wouldn't of failed a bunch of times.
Also I don't know how it is there but here, if you fail simple ground stuff, that's worse than failing a flight, you can prepare everything on the ground, never a reason to not know the basics
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
No. The point of cadet programs is to keep their regional staffed and they have thousands of applicants right now.
For them it makes more sense to hire someone more competitive with less instrument failures.
m4a785m@reddit
That’s the attitude everyone that fails their initial type has lol
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
You teach CFI initial in Oklahoma, failed a bunch of IFR checks, and expect an airline to believe you're proficient in IFR? Good luck with that
Fulcrum58@reddit
How much do 141 stage check failures affect you? Or is it in OP’s case the stage check for the cadet program?
IM_REFUELING@reddit
Even DAL and AAL ask for stage check fails in their application. Doesn't matter much to the big boys, but I would think it makes a much bigger difference for a regional since this will be OPs first training course in a jet
Formal_Syrup_4596@reddit
I’m glad someone said this.. It’s exactly what I was thinking while reading the post.
bgrant902@reddit
Not an airline pilot so take this with a grain of salt but I live in Indy and therefore know many Republic pilots. I’ve never heard anything but great things, so if you want the Embraer then just go fly it there.
iamflyipilot@reddit
100 actual? How? I have around 4500 hrs TT and maybe 20 actual.
anonymous4071@reddit
doing what kind of flying? and where?
iamflyipilot@reddit
Aerial survey, all over the lower 48 year round.
dakk33@reddit
Do you like… fly for a living? How only 20 actual ? Wtf
iamflyipilot@reddit
Yes. Most of it (3000 ish hours) are aerial survey. Unsurprisingly the survey work is done in VMC. But I file for almost all of the “ferry” flights from one job site to another. But even then I don’t find myself in actual IMC conditions very long. So plenty of IFR flying experience but very little “actual” time.
Worried-Ebb-1699@reddit
Jesus. 100 ACTUAL? Uhh… sorry, but I’d ask them to clarify.
Do they mean 10? Maybe 5? Like who the hell has 100h of actual IMC?
mctomtom@reddit
I am a CFI/CFII in Seattle and I have over 100hrs actual. It’s easy to get up here. Got 30 during my instrument training alone.
Goop290@reddit
Fedex feeder in Seattle.... not happy bout it but hit 100 actual
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Have started thinking about spending the summer in Alaska or Seattle. Not going to find any non convective weather here in Oklahoma
Largos_@reddit
Just make sure you fly something FIKI, the IMC is certainly there but there’s a lot of days you can’t take advantage of it due to freezing levels.
TheFlyingWanker@reddit
300 actual here, scud running the northeast for 2 years
Huge_Analysis_1298@reddit
I miss my times scud running. Some real fun cowboy shit 😂
Wedge_Donovan@reddit
I do, and I have under 1500 total time. I went to a job fair recently and talked with recruiters from multiple regionals who said that at least 25 actual IMC makes you competitive but that they'd ideally like to see at least 50.
As a jet pilot with over 100 actual, I can assure you that having to learn a jet and relearn/rebuild instrument proficiency at the same time, is way harder than being instrument proficient and only having to learn the jet.
Foggles are in no way comparable to the real thing. You have to go seek out IMC. Beating around the pattern or going up for 1.5 to do practice approaches under the hood to get/keep your 6HITs every couple months isn't going to cut it in this market.
PenAdventurous2328@reddit
I love this part: “it seems it’d be easier to go to Republic and then just jump over”
Listen friend,
A. Why are you wanting to play regional hopscotch?
B. Seems like you’re after the E175, which Republic also flies, so if you got a job there, that should satisfy your desire to fly the Embraer over the CRJ…
C. As a regional company, word on the street is Republic > Envoy anyway (Though how different are any of the regionals REALLY)
D. Not that that matters anyway because no one is getting class dates at Republic either
E. Most regionals won’t hire someone with 3 checkride failures, and Republic doesn’t even take people from their own cadet program/flight school with 3 checkride failures. I realize you only have 2, but Envoy is probably looking at your training record as a whole and sees someone with no experience in IMC and weak instrument skills, which is all you’re doing at an airline. Unfortunately, whatever they are seeing must be pretty egregious, and my guess is that if Envoy picked up on some red flags, other companies might as well.
Advice: I understand your frustration but you have to play the game. Stop being choosey about companies and jets. Put your app in everywhere and take the first available job you’re offered. In the meantime, work on getting your 100 hours of IMC because, honestly, that might be faster than getting another offer for a different regional in this hiring market.
73Heavy@reddit
+1 for apply everywhere and take the job you get offered
Cerberusmut@reddit
Until very recently this was the way. You apply to everyone and hope you get one, if you’re lucky you got two and then had to make a decision. This was the same process at both regionals and majors. Only until very recent (the last 6-8yrs) was someone able to say “I want to work at _____airline” and then get pissed if they didn’t get the job offer.
You DO NOT want to get comfortable at a regional. They ALL treat you like crap compared to a major. You need to look at it as a stepping stone and that’s it. Yes, some people make a career out of the regionals for one reason or another but if possible you want to get your experience and repeat the above statement of applying to move on.
I once had a captain tell me the best piece of advice he had in regard to regionals was to pick the crappiest one. When asked why, his response was “so you hate going to work every day and it motivates you to get the hell out”.
Good luck.
Splitzer_sdk@reddit
This. Better to be less comfortable at your regional. I have first hand experience to speak to this. Got hired by ExpressJet in 2007. Should have been more motivated to get out. Made it to the majors, but it took 14 years basically due to getting comfortable and not working hard enough to make my resume more competitive. If xjt had not gone under during the pandemic I’d probably still be there. Then when they did go under, I had to do the work to get more competitive in a much less desirable time period. Part of it was the lost decade, of course, but part of it was allowing myself to get comfortable at a regional. (Some of the getting comfortable was necessary, as the years between 2008-2019 it was pretty hard to get hired by a major if you hadn’t flown the space shuttle. But still, I could have been in a better position sooner).
Splitzer_sdk@reddit
That being said, the alternate narrative is that if you get stuck somewhere for awhile through no fault of your own— you might need to find a way to be at least marginally happy there for a lengthy stay. Both versions have merit. I guess best option is just stay motivated and keep working hard to get to the next step whether it’s because you hate your regional or not.
Splitzer_sdk@reddit
This. Better to be less comfortable at your regional. I have first hand experience to speak to this. Got hired by ExpressJet in 2007. Should have been more motivated to get out. Made it to the majors, but it took 14 years basically due to getting comfortable and not working hard enough to make my resume more competitive. If xjt had not gone under during the pandemic I’d probably still be there. Then when they did go under, I had to do the work to get more competitive in a much less desirable time period. Part of it was the lost decade, of course, but part of it was allowing myself to get comfortable at a regional. (Some of the getting constable was necessary, as the years between 2008-2019 it was pretty hard to get hired by a major if you hadn’t flown the space shuttle. But still, I could have been in a better position sooner).
naterthepilot2@reddit
It sounds like they have 30 hours actual as they said they’d need 70 more. I think that’s pretty decent IMC experience for an instructor going for a regional. There are plenty of people still getting hired at regionals with way less actual than that. Also I’m not involved in Pilot hiring but if I was, OP being a Gold Seal instructor would matter more to me than the 2 checkride failures, especially when 1 of them was a COVID era knowledge failure for not knowing the minimums of a contact approach 💀
Assuming OP is being truthful in their post here, there’s a regional out there that will hire them. Don’t get stuck on pursuing (any) one airline.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
It’s definitely super frustrating to have my early failures looked at instead of my success in my last 900 hours. I saw one reddit post saying a gold seal is worthless so thank you for this opinion!
And yea trust me you can bet your ass every one of my students knows every single detail about what a contact approach is now💀
PenAdventurous2328@reddit
It’s not just you, though, that’s just aviation. Most people’s failures are “early failures.” Most checkrides (and subsequently most failures) happen at low hours and then you work toward your 1,500. You know?
Idk, I get what you’re saying but almost every pilot everywhere has their early failures looked at, at every job interview ever. That’s just the nature of aviation. Do I personally think that’s the most valuable metric of someone’s piloting ability? Absofuckinglutely not. But they haven’t come up with a better way, so this is the system you’re in.
To reference the FOI, I’m sure you’re familiar with the fantasy defense mechanism where the student focuses on ideal situations or "should-be" scenarios rather than dealing with the reality of their performance, limitations, required standards or even the situation they are in. The reality is, you have checkride failures. The fact that they happened early in your career is irrelevant. Any checkride fail will be evaluated by a future employer, so you’ll just have to accept that and begin to move forward.
Again, I recommend just applying to as many jobs as you can.. 135, 121 regionals.. keep flying in the meantime, and don’t dwell on the past. Just focus on the future. Feeling frustrated or victimized isn’t going to serve you in the long run and that also won’t be what anyone wants to pick up on from a candidate in an interview.
Good luck with everything! Just keep moving forward.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Yes sir, appreciate the good and honest advice. Definitely know the system is flawed but it’s the best we have
RBZL@reddit
https://i.imgflip.com/6o6ogc.gif
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Let me dream man
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of the request. It would be quicker for me to go to a whole other airline then re apply rather than do what they’re doing. I actually didn’t know republic had E175s so I appreciate that, haven’t done any research into them but it’s time I start
wheatthiccss@reddit
I’d rather get more actual and get hired by Envoy than sign republic’s training contract. Miss me with that. That being said, take what you can get.
PenAdventurous2328@reddit
Eh, I’m going to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
It’s taking most people on average approximately 3 years to get hired from a regional to a mainline.. gotta get the hours to qualify for upgrade and then get competitive PIC time. Some are getting hired with less, some it takes a little longer.
The brickyard contract in almost every rendition is either a 5 year total commitment, or 2 year commitment as PIC.
Getting 100 hours in a Cessna in Oklahoma is going to take this kid 2 years anyway. (Perusing some of the comments, he’s stated that he only has 30 of his 1,500 in IMC, and only teaches CFI candidates.) If OP went that route, it would be an approx. 2+ year delay to get to Envoy, 2 years of lost seniority at a regional, and then 3 more (ish) to have a hope of moving onto a major. And that’s provided the movement is still the same/similar. It might slow down, it might speed up. It’s my understanding that upgrades at the regional level are slowing down. After 2 years of flying around getting prop plane IMC hours, the market could be even more saturated. But say it swings the other way, why not put yourself in the best possible position? And that’s turbine time > IMC in a single engine.
My take is that, while any contract is crap, it’s not SO crappy as not to take it. 5 years total/2 years PIC is honestly about what it’s taking people to move onto the majors anyway and if anyone is fortunate enough to get scooped up before the terms of the regional contract are out, just pay the penalty.
But are they even still doing the training contract anyway? I thought not but I could be wrong. Don’t really keep up with that stuff outside of what I hear through the grapevine.
bamfcoco1@reddit
Im going to disagree with you saying “most people” go from a regional to mainline in 3 years. Very few in the grand scheme do it in 3. Maybe during the post COVID boom. Most people are 5+ OTS, 7+ for flow programs, and some regional lifers. A small proportion are going to a major in 3 years.
PenAdventurous2328@reddit
I actually agree with you! But that kind of reinforces my argument. There are people going quicker than 5 years or less than 2 of PIC, but overall, those contract terms are close to what people would be doing at a regional anyway, which was the point I was going for.
Computerized-Cash@reddit
I went through something similar with another AA WO Cadet program. Made my point very clear through email by writing the exact reg and subsection that proves my times are applicable to the ATP cert (I was counting sim time towards total time).
Now if they are considering your history of instrument flight and made a decision that they want to see more IMC time before they pay for a instrument-heavy certification, they really (unfortunately) hold all the cards. If you can’t change their minds I’d suggest asking if you can get that sim time under the hood or even get a fresh IPC in a MEL to prove you can fly instrument effectively. And yes I’d include you’re a gold seal and list how many IRA/CFII passes you have in particular if any.
Bunslow@reddit
...and did your emailed point-making get you anywhere?
Computerized-Cash@reddit
Yes, saved me a month of instruction moved my CJO up a month.
notryanreynolds_@reddit
OP, keep in mind you may be the only person that the review board has recently requested get 100 hours actual IMC. There is also a non zero chance a member of that board (or someone they know) is on this sub. It would be quite easy to track this post to you, so be mindful of what is said on here.
OrangeWritten@reddit
This post directly contrasting with all the other posts saying Envoy doesn’t care about him at all is gold.
LoungeFlyZ@reddit
Come to the PNW and bang out the 70 IMC in two weeks.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Definitely think it’d be worth finding a hobbyist up there who needs a right seat filled there rather than wait for some clouds down here to pop up
AKPilotz@reddit
100 hours of imc is not jaw dropping or crazy….
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
For an instructor who doesn’t teach instrument anymore and lives in a sunny and clear sky state… it low key is.
MeatServo1@reddit
Either you want the job and will do it, or you won't. They don't need you and don't care about you. Right now you're not even a plot for them. Play their game or move on. Also, if you go to a regional, don't leave your seniority to go to another regional. That's dumb unless you're furloughed, bought out, or have a significant change in circumstances like getting divorced and moving somewhere else, etc.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Just crazy to give me $15k and flight benefits then tell me you don’t need me just yet when you’re at max training capacity
the_devils_advocates@reddit
Dude you clearly struggled with instruments and they said they want you to fly more instruments. Seems pretty straight forward to me. They’re giving you a chance with multiple failures. I wouldn’t sleep on that fact.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
My issue is I have zero struggle with instrument, I failed on ground knowledge years ago and have learned well and taught all my students how to pass the same ride I failed. Just crazy to see my recent success with instrument knowledge be ignored and think flying 70 more hours of actual IMC would make up for me not knowing what a contact approach was when I was early in my training
the_devils_advocates@reddit
I think you’re looking into it too much, or giving too much credit to those who review applications. It’s very systematic. The fact you had students pass instrument is great, 70 hours of actual while still being on this side of the dirt is nice, but failures are failures. What you said is all great stuff to discuss on an interview, but doesn’t bridge the gap right now and if you want to compete with those that don’t have them or have a chance at a job right now, you have to ask “how high?” when they say jump. In this case, they said jump, AND told you how high (100 actual) and you’ve complained and rationalized your failure to COVID online training and came to complain about it online. You aren’t your friends unfortunately. If you think you can get hired elsewhere, give it a shot. From what I’m seeing, you should be lucky they’re still considering you
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Genuinely not trying to complain just wanted to see if similar requests are being made now that the demand in the market is shrinking and if anybody knew what I could do
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
The airlines have and will continue to do way more expensive expenditures for way less smart reasons. Just the nature of the business..
azbrewcrew@reddit
I ferried an empty airliner with a toilet and a mechanic onboard to an AOG airplane and then ferried back all because the parts courier was going to take 13 hours or so…2 hour call out and 3 hour flight and the AOG plane back in service hours before the courier would have arrived. Probably one of the worlds most expensive toilets flying around out there 😂
the_devils_advocates@reddit
I always said that an airplane is really just a flying porta potty where everyone is waiting to take their turn
MeatServo1@reddit
Sure, they're at max capacity, but there are at least a couple hundred of people just like you, ready to start right this second. And there'll be another dozen before the month is over, and another dozen the week after that, and so on. If there's a contract, make them dismiss you from the cadet program. It won't go on your PRIA because it's not a training program and it's not employment, and it's truthfully and honestly explained as "they told me I needed 100 hours of actual IMC time before they would assign me a class date, but [reason you applied to work for the people interviewing you]." If there's no contract, you can hold on for a while, but even if you could reliably log actual IMC 90% of every flight, you'd need at least 111 hours to get that time. Even splitting a 172 at RMFS at $45 an hour, it's still approaching $5k before room and board, travel costs, and ancillary expenses flying for probably two weeks straight. The tldr is this is them gently suggesting you move along and look elsewhere.
Redfish680@reddit
A couple hundred without the failures.
Veritech-1@reddit
What is your total instrument time? Actual/simulated?
Ok_Witness179@reddit
Lol nah, $15k is nothing to the airlines.
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
pennies, really
YugeWaterBottle@reddit
Lol "i love this company, they gave me a challenge coin..." but they haven't even hired you.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
I’m military so it was just a Veterans Day coin for employees, just very minor small thing people never see out there
YugeWaterBottle@reddit
You're such a sucker
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
I’m in the military bro what do you expect. How do you think I got into that
Urrolnis@reddit
OP, I'm sorry you're going through this and that you got somewhat bait and switched by being in their cadet program...
But "Hey, we notice you've got some issues with instrument, so we want to see more instrument experience" is AWESOME! I'd love to see the industry move towards this when it comes to training failures vs an arbitrary "X number of failures means you'll never succeed".
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
It is really comforting to see an airline care about failures in a correct way, just want to be able to correct it in a more realistic way. I failed on ground knowledge, I’d rather go retake the instrument checkride 20 times than wait all day to find a cloud
Urrolnis@reddit
100 hours may be extreme in my opinion, I'd say 50 hours.
That said, lots of people would kill to be in your shoes to get around a ground knowledge failure on a fairly obscure approach type by just flying more. I'm absolutely not calling you ungrateful, 100 hours is a lot especially for something as circumstantial as IMC, but that's an incredible opportunity to correct failures!
Look on the bright side, as gloomy as it is, you have that chance to succeed still. Many people have failures that locked them out of the industry forever. You can overcome!
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Yea it’s pretty much settled in that I’m happy to be where I am but is tough to see all my coworkers with the same resume in training right now
ragedracer1977@reddit
Man, I’m just coming up on 1500 hours, all flown in my own planes, instrument rated since 2017. I seek out instrument conditions. I’ve still only managed to get 47.3 actual in 9 years. I’ve flown coast to coast, in and out of Mexico, etc. I’d have to move to socal and fly around at 1500’ for 6 months to get another 50 haha
planedude1114@reddit
Same here. Instrument rating for 2.5 years and only about 6 hours actual as PIC
DrHookEmMD@reddit
Coming up on 5000 TT, and I’ve got 310 IMC, this may be a subtle hint to look elsewhere.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Yeah I was gonna say I'm almost 5000TT with about 330 IMC... This just sounds unreasonable unless the subtext is "go get a job flying instruments and then come back to us" which I guess I'd believe
SoaringEagle469@reddit
But guys they gave him a challenge coin
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
It was a sick coin
hoptopic2333@reddit
Just find a way to do it brother. You are lucky you got hired
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
I’m definitely not blind to still being fortunate for having an offer
EagleE4@reddit
How many hours of actual instrument do you have
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
31 hours so far, which I didn’t think was too bad
AceofdaBase@reddit
Would they let you do it in an AATD simulator?
derkricket@reddit
Research the feasibility of spending some time in the Bay Area flying in the fog. A CFII from out that way can chime in as to how fast you’d rack up the actual IMC, what time of year you could expect fog on a consistent basis, etc.
KittyHawk_media@reddit
It is a dumb requirement by the airline. If it was a concern, it seems that they could require some IFR simulator time. If your heart is set on it, go rent a plane and fly every time it’s overcast. Or ask them to allow at least some of the time to be in an approved simulator. Regardless, don’t hold out for a particular regional airline. Take any flying job that is a step up into jet or turbo-prop or even a multi-piston. It’s all better than instructing and will give you real world experience, including actual IFR. Don’t beat yourself up over failures. Just show how they helped you learn to focus and be better prepared. Keep it positive and show that you fixed what was wrong and moved on. Don’t fall in love with any job. It’s all the same at the end of the day, regardless of what you’re flying. Remember that first love you had? And then the luster eventually wore off and you were looking for every way out of the relationship? That’s how any regional job will be! Bottom line, take any job that gets you into larger, more complicated airplanes at this stage. - Bob
21jeeper@reddit
Can we get a TLDR?
so-average@reddit
I had tuition reimbursement with SkyWest, got close to my hours and emailed them. They didn’t respond fast enough so I applied to a carrier that would get me a type rating. Paid back SkyWest’s money and went to the 737 carrier. Best decision I ever made. Even with some of the career progression delays I’ve had here I’ll still beat multiple instructor friends to the legacies, whom left a year before me for SkyWest.
Diver_105@reddit
Did you downplay your checkride failures during the CRB like you did in the post? Generally the advice is to take full responsibility and demonstrate how you used the fail to become a better pilot. If you brushed off the fails like in the post they may have saw that as concerning.
WastingMyTime8@reddit
This. No excuses.
Busy-Agent-8380@reddit (OP)
Oh yea I gave the full “this is what happened this is what I learned and I’m glad I went through this”
Diver_105@reddit
Oh wow. I’ve never heard of captains review boards ending in requests for more hours regardless. Good luck.
TornadoTim60@reddit
Just a point of clarity here, from what I know: applicants don’t sit in the CRB process. That happens after interviews at the WOs. The captains review board is a group of CAs reading the interview notes and answers to questions, reviewing the paperwork, and apparently giving a “Yes,” “No,” or “Yes, but..” recommendation to the hiring process
YamComprehensive7186@reddit
You've got multiple failures and they're even considering you? Take the advice and get some time under your belt.
tooflytotry@reddit
I won’t lie, 100 hours of actual is a pretty steep request. I guarantee most of the people here criticizing you didn’t have that when they went to the airlines. But anyway…
If I were you I’d apply to every regional there is if you haven’t already. And do what you can to build that time while continuing to negotiate. It sucks but right now we need regionals more than they need us, and they have all the cards.
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
I haven't logged 100 hours of actual instrument and I've been flying for 18 years.
PilotBurner44@reddit
As someone who worked for 4 different regionals, my advice is: pick one, and stick with it. Do your time, and move on. Moving laterally to another regional isn't going to do you any favors and it will just make for more difficult questions come Major interview time. I've met plenty of people that have worked at each of the regionals, and I don't think any of them are worth delaying or derailing your career over. Envoy, which is the successor to American Eagle isn't anything special.
Apply elsewhere, and while you wait, ask for another CRB. If they say "gent bent", go somewhere else.
I'm guessing they're trying to thin down and delay their hiring but still keeping people in their silly little program.
Imaginary_Amoeba3461@reddit
I’d start applying elsewhere in order of preference, but you can’t afford to be picky.
In the meantime try to get more IMC by changing jobs /appeal to them but don’t count on that.
That’s the only option you have.
dakk33@reddit
To be honest man I’d just be glad they are giving you a shot in this climate with all those failures. Tough cookie to swallow maybe, but sounds like you have an excuse for all those failures apart from just “I wasn’t up to snuff.” I wouldn’t be pledging any kind of allegiance to them though. If another opportunity comes along..take it. In the mean time, do what you gotta do to get hired and don’t look a gift horse in the mouth
PristineJackfruit693@reddit
There’s a lot of harsh people here and I get it but, get a job where you can. Reach out to all of them, it’s great that you have invested time and commitment into researching envoy and that you love their values, that’s very important. Never however let it stop you from getting time or experience at another airline. You can always move over from another airline! If you really really love them also, make sure you’re going to your networking meetings like sun n fun, rtag, lpa, wai, obap, etc. earn those brownie points and keep bothering those recruiters until they know your name.
VFRintoIMC@reddit
Apply for another job. Also don’t try to get actual time while cfiing. That’s gonna take forever. Get a job flying caravan somewhere and get 135 time.
CommuterType@reddit
Please say "hired" don't enable their corporate speak bullshit
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
What’s up yall. I’m an instructor who got onboarded to the envoy cadet program last spring. I absolutely love this company, got benefits, a bonus and even a Veterans Day challenge coin so I’m absolutely in love with what this company is and want to end up here for my full regional time.
Last month I hit my ATP hours and emailed to start onboarding. I did my drug test and all the paperwork and last week I got a call. The call was from Envoy saying the Captains Review Board reviewed my file and think I need to get 100 hours of Actual IMC time before I can start training… I thought it was surely a miscommunication but I confirmed the other day that that’s exactly what my file says. My resume is nothing crazy impressive. Failed instrument stage 1 and 2 for ground knowledge and the instrument checkride on the oral for not knowing what contact approach minimums were (this was during COVID so all training was online so my ground knowledge was TERRIBLE) I did fail my multi checkride on the single engine approach also (had to shoot a VOR approach for the first time ever in the plane because of expired database and didn’t switch my CDI in time)
So obviously my resume isn’t too impressive but I have friends who are going through training with multiple instrument failures and on the flight portion too and didn’t have any issue with CRB.
Every coworker and envoy friend has a jaw dropping reaction to what I’ve been told. Has anybody been told something crazy like this recently? I’m in Oklahoma so the amount of time it would take to get the 70 actual I need would be 1-2 years. (I’m a gold seal instructor so my school only wants me to teach CFI so I can’t even get IFR students)
Does anybody have any recommendations? Should I see if I can ask and try to go through CRB again with an updated resume showing my gold seal and success as an instructor? It’s just so frustrating watching people with similar resumes go off to the airlines while I’m being told my ground knowledge was bad when I was 19 (currently 24) so I need to fly IFR the next 2 years when there’s captains there that don’t even have that time
Any advice would be greatly appreciative, I love this company and really don’t want to apply elsewhere but it seems it’d be easier to go to republic and then just jump over
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