Are US Supreme Court Judges Cabinet Members Constitutionally?
Posted by manolosandmartinis44@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 63 comments
I'm a foreigner and don't know, but I'm curious and nor does my (American) wife. Many thanks in advance for putting up with my basic questions with decorum!
Vulpix_lover@reddit
No, they are under the Judicial branch. Cabinet members fall under Executive branch
pgm123@reddit
And, also, there is no cabinet mentioned in the Constitution. There are department heads and the president is instructed to get their views in writing, but that isn't inherently the same thing as a cabinet.
JtotheC23@reddit
I mean, they kinda are? The title "the cabinet" wasn't officially given to them until the 25th Amendment in 1967, but they've been referred to as the cabinet since Washington, just as an unofficial name.
albertnormandy@reddit
It wasn’t in the Constitution when Washington did it either.
JtotheC23@reddit
The name wasn’t officially given to them in the constitution until the 25th amendment, but they were referred to as “the cabinet” as an unofficially title as early as Washington.
albertnormandy@reddit
I know, but the idea of a cabinet was not in the constitution. Washington did it and the tradition stuck.
MyUsername2459@reddit
They're implied in the wording of the 25th Amendment, Paragraph 4.
"and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide"
. . .the Cabinet would be the "principal officers of the executive departments", but that sole special Constitutional role could, by definition, somehow be supplanted in that role by another body if Congress wished.
JtotheC23@reddit
They're mentioned in Article 2, section 2. The 25th is just the first time they're referred to as the "Cabinet."
SirTwitchALot@reddit
/thread
Vulpix_lover@reddit
?
bloodectomy@reddit
Coding joke
The slash denotes "end of current command"
Dave_A480@reddit
Not really coding....
IRC joke (early online chat system)....
Channel commands started with slashes....
/slap A_huge_asshole
Dave_A slaps A_HugeAsshole around with a large trout!
There was also /kick and /ban among other things.....
Ameisen@reddit
First off, as has been said, it's from markup (XML or HTML specifically) - it is used to indicate the closing of a tag.
Second,
/slapis not an IRC command. The mIRC has custom actions which mapped to commands, including slapping, but those were represented by/mein the end.maclainanderson@reddit
No, it's coding. Or rather markup. In html or xml, you open tags with the tag name in brackets, then close it with the tag name in brackets with a slash in front of the name. E.g.
Vulpix_lover@reddit
Ah
JtotheC23@reddit
As others said, the Cabinet is exclusively members of the executive branch, and it consists of the heads of each of the 15 executive departments (state department, defense department, treasury, etc). They have the title secretary, similar to other countries.
The rest of the cabinet consists of obviously the president, the vice president, and sometimes the president's chief-of-staff (not always historically, but all recent ones have been).
The supreme court are their own branch of the government, completely seperate from the executive and legislature.
QueenShewolf@reddit
No. Cabinet members are directly picked by the president. The president can NOMINATE a Supreme Court Judge who is then approved by the Senate. This only happens when a judge's seat is vacant due to their predecessor dying or resigning.
TankDestroyerSarg@reddit
No. The highest level of government in the USA is called Federal. The Federal Government is broken down into three completely separate branches that work to balance each other out; Executive, Legislative and Judicial. The Cabinet is part of the Executive Branch, and is tasked with managing the various departments that actually carry out the work of the government. Run the Military, Tax and Disperse funds, Run Embassies, etc. The Supreme Court is in the Judicial Branch and is not subordinate to the Cabinet or the President. It's the same with State governments
aoeuismyhomekeys@reddit
One more thing: judges at the Supreme Court and state Supreme courts are called justices rather than judges. (Tons of Americans make the same mistake)
OpeningChipmunk1700@reddit
Indeed, but (oddly) the state supreme court is not necessarily the highest in the state. In New York, it is the lowest.
B_A_Beder@reddit
Are there any exceptions like that other than NY?
OpeningChipmunk1700@reddit
I do not know. Texas has a split system, where the highest court for civil appeals is different from the highest court for criminal appeals.
garrett_w87@reddit
Interesting. What’s the highest then? In Texas, the Supreme Court is the highest.
OpeningChipmunk1700@reddit
The Court of Appeals, which is the intermediate level in most states with 3 levels and in the federal system.
manolosandmartinis44@reddit (OP)
As did this Dutchman, my apologies.
Accomplished-Park480@reddit
During oral arguments a couple of decades ago, an attorney kept referring to the Justices as judges and some of the Justices kept correcting the attorney until Justice John Paul Stevens said something like "it's ok, the Constitution doesn't make the distinction either." And if you look at Article III of the Constitution (deals with the judiciary) there is no mention for Justices or Associate Justices as they are often referred to. There is a reference to the Chief Justice and officially that title is Chief Justice of the United States, not Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. So the fact that Justice has become the accepted title for the members of the Supreme Court, that is not based on the Constitution. No apologies are warranted.
aoeuismyhomekeys@reddit
No worries, they're effectively the exact same role, they just have a fancier title. I just felt like I'd add that since none of the other commenters hadn't yet.
Practical-Ordinary-6@reddit
They are somewhat different in that they don't "judge" trials with defendants the way most judges do. They work at the appellate level (they hear appeals to the outcomes of previous trials, with some special cases being the exception) where they review cases that have already been tried or they review challenges to legislation. So it is a different focus. Having said that I don't know where the difference of calling them justice has came from and if it has any relation to that.
Ok-Race-1677@reddit
Try Google
cyvaquero@reddit
I work in the Judiciary. No, we are a separate branch from the Executive and the Legislative.
Hey-Bud-Lets-Party@reddit
In most republics there is a separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judicial branches. One of your posts says you are from the Netherlands, so in that aspect it is similar to your own government.
manolosandmartinis44@reddit (OP)
I'm not sure this is the case.
In the Netherlands, the head of the executive -- our prime minister -- is the leader of the largest cobbled-together bloc in the lower house of parliament, and judges are answerable to Parliament. All other ministers must be members of the lower house of Parliament as well.
Hey-Bud-Lets-Party@reddit
I’m reading up now.
manolosandmartinis44@reddit (OP)
You aren't expected to be familiar with the vagaries of Dutch politics. Our prime minister is here today, gone tomorrow. Hell, if climate change comes in its worst case, the country will disappear under the sea. sigh
Hey-Bud-Lets-Party@reddit
I know about the parliamentary stuff, but I was most surprised that the Supreme Court doesn’t rule on the constitutionality of laws.
manolosandmartinis44@reddit (OP)
It does, just has the upper house of parliament and king (in theory) as final checks.
DrBlankslate@reddit
No. The Cabinet is part of the Executive branch. The Supreme Court is part of the Judicial branch. They are not the same branches of government at all.
RepresentativeAir735@reddit
No. Cabinet secretaries are part of the executive (ie president) branch.
The Supreme Court is a separate branch. It's members are nominated by the executive and confirmed by the legislative branch (congress).
Ok_Kiwi8365@reddit
The nomination and confirmation may be the source of their confusion since cabinet secretaries (along with many executive branch and judicial officials) face the same process, but members of the judiciary are not subject to the authority of the president
Practical-Ordinary-6@reddit
One very interesting addition to that list that I really didn't know about until fairly recent years is that top level military officers have to be approved for top level commands by the Senate. I don't know if they word it exactly the same way but it's another sort of confirmation by the Senate.
One thing I didn't know also that's related to to that is that three and four star generals don't just get promoted individually as three and four star generals. The three and four stars are associated with specific jobs. The stars go with the jobs more than the person. So if they're going to be appointed to that job they get promoted to that number of stars and have those stars while they're in that role. The Senate has the individually approve them for that sort of promotion.
KittyBungholeFire@reddit
They are chosen (nominated) by the president, then the Senate gives their "advice and consent" (hearings and confirmation vote), but once confirmed they serve for life and, often to the consternation of the president who chose them, they don't always make rulings that the president who nominated them (or the senators who voted for them) agrees with. This is why they're called an "independent judiciary."
Ok_Kiwi8365@reddit
Ya.
RingGiver@reddit
No.
Cabinet members are the secretaries of the various executive departments. They act on behalf of the president and have authority delegated from the president's authority as described in Article II of the Constitution. The Supreme Court's role is described in Article III.
The Department of Justice has prosecutors and some law enforcement agencies and its cabinet guy is the only one who's not called "Secretary of [department]."
For the most part, judges are not part of any cabinet department. Well, sort of. There are actually several times more judges in various agencies which fall under cabinet departments than the 900 or so Article III judges of the Supreme Court and lower courts. The Article II judges don't have the same kind of authority, though: Article II judges are much more limited in scope of their authority. They generally have comparable authority to an Article III judge on a federal district court within the area that they focus on, but it's typically focused on a specific area. Examples include immigration judges, administrative law judges (who work in a specific agency and handle disputes according to the Administrative Procedures Act, a lot of agencies employ administrative law judges), and the United States Tax Court.
As far as I'm aware, the largest group of non-Article III judges who handle any criminal cases are in the military. The military has its own legal system, with a few thousand lawyers who are commissioned as military officers. Most of them act as attorneys (generally, they start their career as prosecutors and then do other things). Some of the higher-ranking ones are appointed as judges in the military's system. The highest court in the military's system (which is still subject to review by the Supreme Court, but not as directly as civilian courts) is composed of a panel of judges who are not military officers.
Penguin_Life_Now@reddit
No, US Supreme Court justices are appointed for life (or until they choose to retire) nominated by the current president, then confirmed by the Senate, and have few duties other than being a Judge on the Supreme court.
manolosandmartinis44@reddit (OP)
Can they not resign?
Practical-Ordinary-6@reddit
They can, but they don't usually resign, they usually retire at a ripe old age. Or not, and then they die in office. Nothing except actual malfeasance allows them to be removed and they retire when they are ready.
Legal_Bed_1506@reddit
They are judicial branch members, not executive, so no. An easy way to tell if someone is a cabinet member their title will start with “Secretary of xyz” for US Departments, and “Director of xyz” or “Administrator of xyz” for other various agencies and offices that may or may not be part of the cabinet during each presidency. Cabinet members are advisors to the President and heads of important departments/agencies/offices. The principal advisor to the President in regards to legal matters is the Attorney General (one of the ones that doesn’t follow the same format as other cabinet members). The Attorney General is also the head of the Department of Justice (think FBI, DEA, ATF, etc) and the chief law enforcement officer of the US. The person though who is more or less the lawyer of the USA is the Solicitor General, which is under the Attorney General
Practical-Ordinary-6@reddit
With the exception that the leader of ministry is usually an elected politician. Whereas in the US, they are never elected politicians. They might have been elected politicians in the past and might be so again in the future but while there are department head they are serving under appointment by the president.
VanDenBroeck@reddit
Your American wife must have failed US history and government classes.
LeilLikeNeil@reddit
Nope.
Brave_Mess_3155@reddit
Their actually cupboard members
capsrock02@reddit
No
richbiatches@reddit
Mo
ATLien_3000@reddit
No.
The Cabinet is not really defined in the Constitution.
itds@reddit
Seems like it, doesn’t it?
sneezhousing@reddit
No they aren't part of executive branch at all.
lewisfairchild@reddit
no
dancingbanana123@reddit
There are three branches of government in the US: the legislative branch (passes and writes laws), the executive branch (enforces laws), and the judiciary branch (interprets laws). The president is at the top of the executive branch and their cabinet is basically the people that fall directly under the president in the executive branch. The Supreme Court is at the top of the judiciary branch, meant to be nearly independent from the president, and basically have final say over what the laws (and particularly the constitution) mean. While the president can choose to fire any members of their cabinet, they can't fire members of the supreme court. Supreme Court Justices, once sworn in, serve for life (or until they choose to resign, like when they're too old). The only way to forcibly remove a Justice would be to impeach them and remove them from office, which requires 2/3rds of congress (legislative branch) to agree.
Living_Fig_6386@reddit
No. Cabinet members are part of the Executive Branch of government. Supreme Court Justices are part of a different branch of government, the Judicial Branch. The Legislative Branch creates the laws, the Executive implements and enforces them, and the Judicial settles questions of law and violations thereof.
MyUsername2459@reddit
No.
The US government has three separate and equal branches, the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.
The Cabinet really isn't a Constitutional position, it's defined by law. The 25th Amendment implies cabinet members in it, but that's something that can be defined by law. The Cabinet are the appointed leaders of the various departments and major agencies of government. The Cabinet are all ultimately accountable to the President, who can fire them.
The members of the Supreme Court compose the highest level of the Judicial Branch of government, which is separate and not accountable to the President. They're part of a completely separate branch of government.
_WeSellBlankets_@reddit
No, the cabinet is made up of the heads of the various Departments of the executive branch. Treasury Department, Department of Education, Department of Defense, State Department, etc.
Grindar1986@reddit
Cabinet members are the heads of the departments under the Executive branch. Supreme Court is the Judiciary, it's own branch of government.
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