Getting real -- did a pre-buy inspection today....
Posted by FlyRvR@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 23 comments
I have not talked to the inspector yet. I had good vibes about this before getting the inspection done, and although some of this seems OK, normal wear, or can be fixed and negotiated. There are some things that seem... odd......
He did a general look around the aircraft, then focused on the engine today. He will look for corrosion, and other air frame stuff tomorrow.
Engine is near TBO, no metal in filter checks, good compressions, and two good oil analysis points, waiting on a third. The owner flies it regularly.
It is a Mooney M20E, IO-360-A1A engine.
Here is a shared drive with inspection photos.
Here is the quick write-up I got from the inspector:
Compressions are as follows:
#1: 75/80 #2: 70/80 #3: 76/80 #4: 77/80 (Previous were: 78 74 72 74)
The following discrepancies have been noted so far:
- -RH wing tip damage, dented
- -Paint missing at many fastener, rivets and leading edges leading to surface corrosion
- -Upper cowl fwd interior sheetmetal damaged due to chaffing by baffles.
- -RH and LH aileron trailing edges dented and wavy
- -RH elevator has patch repair, research required if allowable and balanced
- -LH Elevator youtube trailing edge spray painted
- -Flaps inbd trailing edges notched, stock? Research required.
- -Rudder control rods contacting tail cone and RH elevator, may require rigging
- -LH wing upper 2nd panel from inbd has paint patch.
- -LH wing outbd edge has a repair strip or doubler, research required.
- -Some instrument labeling worn and or unlegible
- -Generator belt loose
- -Generator braket broken, one bracket may be missing, aft generator hardware missing
- -Generator contacting fuel control levers
- -Loose exhasut pipe at ball joint
- -Exhaust pipe hardware has been chaffing on firewall, worn aluminum and notched due to hardware
- -Engine control cables chaffing on engine mouts and firewall.
- -Engine oil return couplings leaking
- -Cylinder 1 and 2 seaping at bases
- -Crankshaft seal leaking
- -loose clamps and broken zip ties inside engine bay
- -incorrect baffling and selants used
- -lower engine shock mounts appear worn
I'd really appreciate feedback as this will be a big decision in the next day or two, so I'm looking for as much as I can get. I'll update after contacting the inspector.
phxcobraz@reddit
Having owned a Mooney for 5yrs now and done enough annuals, I can’t image that laundry list of serious items still existing. You’re looking at a neglected and improperly maintained aircraft. I would absolutely walk. You can find plenty of other well cared for examples.
FlyRvR@reddit (OP)
Yeah. And the mechanic kept finding things as he was buttoning it up after I called off further digging: unapproved welding. And the EGT probes are actually cut….
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
Doesn't sounds good to me with that long list.
If it stopped at item 11 there I might feel better but the stuff after 11 with the engine adding up with the items up to 11 points to a plane that has fair bit of deferred maintenance items.
Generator stuff and the scuffing plus all those engine bay issues could be pointing to engine vibrations, which could be valve issues, which could be a cam shaft.
Crankshaft seal is not a big or expensive job. Points to maybe a preference to not fix unless absolutely necessary.
Did you get a flight in it with the owner? If not was it with some excuse? If they said yes and you went did you notice anything?
ThatOnePilotDude@reddit
Long lists are good, it means the pre-buy mechanic is actually doing the inspection.
Long lists with a lot of non-insignificant problems on the other hand…
FlyRvR@reddit (OP)
yeah, I'm happy with the long list. The thing I'm curious about is sort of a reference point for what he was thinking when he made the list. In other words, yes, a 1966 aircraft will have a dent on the wing, so does that belong on the same list as the generator issues?
Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to walk from this one. I was liking what I was seeing on the surface, and the logs are the best of the five I've looked at.
Here is something really odd about this -- This aircraft had an extensive annual and lots of normal, but needed work done at Maxwell's in Texas just 9 months ago. It was very well documented. They have a good reputation, and several people were telling me that that annual could almost be considered a freebee pre-buy. Maybe the current owner really did tinker with his plane in ways only an A/P should!!
I spent about $1000+ today, that's just gone, but I was fairly close to throwing caution to the wind... could have been worse.
I will walk for now.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
That $1000 isn’t gone. It may have saved you tens of thousand or even your life.
You should recage your thoughts on that spend so you don’t neglect it for a future potential purchase.
CombOdd2117@reddit
I once walked away from $6k. I thank God I did. The next plane was so much better it made $6k look like peanuts.
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
Just saw the picture for number 22. No this guy's been doing shit on his own or have a mechanic who pencil whips the annuals IMHO.
Nnumber@reddit
This sounds like a neglected bird. Control surface issues abound. Every control surface has some sort of issue.
Most concerning are the rudder push pull tubes contacting the tail cone. Something is not quite right about that. Sometimes the piano hinge.
IIRC patches are not allowed for elevator surfaces in the Mooney SRM. The proper repair is a reskin of the surface. I sincerely doubt that patched elevator is in balance. You’re going to have to take it off to check anyway.
Ask the inspector to look under the seats to inspect the spar, forward landing gear bays for spar, and pull the sidewall to look at the tubular frame. These are the corrosion cancer places for a Mooney.
I’d run away from this one. Tells you much more about how this plane was not maintained. Prebuy guy probably saved you $20000 of dealing with squawks.
FlyRvR@reddit (OP)
I should say, I'm really not worried about the small dents, paint chips. I think I'm right in these things being normal and fixable. I'm mainly asking about the items dealing with the engine area.
Nnumber@reddit
The small debts include control surfaces. You should worry about those.
WelderNo4099@reddit
Can’t speak to the Mooney or the list. But you definetly got a good prebuy inspector!
Select_Respond_8627@reddit
Pre-buy inspections are simply negotiating tools. Your mechanic is giving you plenty of tools to work with and from the looks of it most of this stuff is minor old airplane things that should be addressed but aren’t ‘deal breakers’ for most people.
The only things I’d be really concerned about are the base gasket leaks they’ve been unable to fix.
Also, you hired a guy to do a full pre-buy and report, you should let him finish it and consult with him further. No one here has seen the airplane, he has.
Santos_Dumont@reddit
How badly do you want to own a 50 year old airplane? You know how a 50 year old airplane makes it to 70 years? You are going to have to pay to fix all of that eventually.
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
Read the list. Most of that is very minor shit. Very little important stuff on the list
Santos_Dumont@reddit
Having owned a 50 year old Mooney I guarantee there’s stuff not on that list. I don’t even see anything Mooney specific on the list which makes me question the MX familiarity with Mooneys.
When were the magnetos last serviced? When were the gear mounts last replaced? How much time is on the alternator/voltage regulator/ vacuum pump? Does it have the speed brake mod, were those serviced in the past 1000 hrs? Is the gear tension within spec? Fuel pump age? Are the flaps hydraulic? When was the flap pump last serviced? Is the gear electric or manual? If manual what is the wear status of the receiver? If electric when was the motor last replaced? Does the emergency gear crank work?
Select_Respond_8627@reddit
Well, the pre-buy isn’t done yet.
I’m not going to judge a mechanic over a partial pre-buy report.
ThatOnePilotDude@reddit
Speaking on the things I know a little about. Leaking oil isn’t the worst thing ever. I say that but the last time we had a cylinder leaking on an engine and went to change the seal, the entire case was corroded and we pulled the stud out. Core had to be sent out and the plane was down for a few months.
FlyRvR@reddit (OP)
The cylinders have been pulled a few times to try to fix a leak. I was hoping not to hear that there was still a leak. Seems to suggest that the leak isn't due to a bad seal, or.... but could be an unseen crack......
I am leaning towards walking away, but I do need to discuss this with the inspector.
Antique-Kitchen-1896@reddit
FYI is cylinders are pulled one at a time usually no risk. If they had pull multiple unless they did them one at a time there is a risk of losing tension on the case if not taken care to use a fake plate to re-torque the bolts to clamp the case while the jugs are off. If the case tension is lost the crank bearings can shift and lead to bad things.
ThatHellacopterGuy@reddit
A&P (but not IA, and not in GA) opinion:
All of these gripes are things that should’ve been noted during an annual inspection.
A couple appearing since the last annual? Sure, that’s possible.
All of them appearing since the last annual? I don’t think so, Tim.
I’m getting “owner was paying for a logbook entry, not an annual inspection” vibes from this.
OrganicBenzene@reddit
Check 337s? I’d walk
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I have not talked to the inspector yet. I had good vibes about this before getting the inspection done, and although some of this seems OK, normal wear, or can be fixed and negotiated. There are some things that seem... odd......
He did a general look around the aircraft, then focused on the engine today. He will look for corrosion, and other air frame stuff tomorrow.
Engine is near TBO, no metal in filter checks, good compressions, and two good oil analysis points, waiting on a third. The owner flies it regularly.
It is a Mooney M20E, IO-360-A1A engine.
Here is a shared drive with inspection photos.
Here is the quick write-up I got from the inspector:
Compressions are as follows:
#1: 75/80 #2: 70/80 #3: 76/80 #4: 77/80 (Previous were: 78 74 72 74)
The following discrepancies have been noted so far:
I'd really appreciate feedback as this will be a big decision in the next day or two, so I'm looking for as much as I can get. I'll update after contacting the inspector.
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