Moving breaker box to the outside
Posted by judginUhoes@reddit | plano | View on Reddit | 38 comments
Can someone share what the inspection process was like? Do we need to make the whole house up to code (like GFCI’s everywhere) I’m just concerned that it’ll open a can of worms to get the breaker box updated and moved outside. Do they check the whole house or is it just the outside where the box is?
TraceNinja@reddit
Had an old pacific breaker box that was causing problems and we had someone come out to take a look. They told us that new plano codes said we had to relocate to outside the house.
Good news is that the inspection was just on the outside breaker, nothing inside. Bad news is now I'm wondering if I got taken for a ride. It definitely wasn't cheap, like 10k worth of work.
talltxn66@reddit
Depends on when you had it done - I had mine done about 10 years ago and it was about $5k. If you had it done in the last 7years or so, I can see $10k. Depends a lot on the electrician - but you were not take for a ride. Those federal pacific boxes are bad news.
TraceNinja@reddit
Yeah this was two or three years ago.
Not mad at all about replacing the box. When the tech told me what it was I started digging and agreed about needing to replace it. If its not code requirement to move the box outside the garage then I was definitely misled.
talltxn66@reddit
My apologies, I didn’t catch the part about the box already being in the garage. They should have been able to replace the box in the existing location without moving it outside. I’m not sure I would jump immediately to being mislead though - the electrician may have misunderstood the code requirements. The difference in cost probably wouldn’t have been that much different.
mistiquefog@reddit
Why would you want to expose your breaker box to rain and hail?
I would not do such a change to my own home
Snobolski@reddit
I'm taking it you've never looked closely at the back wall of commercial properties. Electrical panels do just fine outside.
DonutAdmirable9831@reddit
Can you please tell us the reason for attempting to do so?
judginUhoes@reddit (OP)
My electrician suggested doing so when we requested a quote for an update and I was under the impression it was recommended in newer homes. (Be gentle I’m new to homeownership 🥲)
Snobolski@reddit
We bought a late-1960s house with an original Federal Pacific panel in a closet. Panel was full and we wanted to add some more circuits.
It's the "in a closet" part that requires relocating the panel because current code doesn't allow panel to be in a closet. If the current one is on an outside wall of the house, the job isn't too complex. They remove your current panel, use the enclosure as a junction box, and run wires from each circuit thru the wall to the new panel. We had that work done, along with a new mast for the "drop" from the pole, for around $3000 in 2015-2016, including permits.
Always get a few estimates and ask for references.
JPhi1618@reddit
I’m going to assume there was a miscommunication, because putting the breaker panel outside is a crazy thing to suggest. Unless you have a panel from the 70s or 80s, there’s most likely no reason to replace it - there’s almost never a reason to move it.
Be very weary of any AC, electricians or plumbers, or really anyone that is recommending major work. They can use scare tactics and hard sales pitches to make it seem needed.
judginUhoes@reddit (OP)
It’s the original panel from the 70’s
JPhi1618@reddit
If it’s a federal pacific (usually has colored handles on the breakers) then it would need to be replaced. You can usually put the new one and the same place. Get other quotes and opinions.
talltxn66@reddit
Sorry, you can’t put the new one and the same place if it’s located in a closet. You either have to move it to the garage (very very expensive) or put it on the outside wall (also expensive, but nowhere close to moving it to the garage)
talltxn66@reddit
I would definitely have another electrician look at it, but your current electrician may well be correct, especially if it is a Federal Pacific box. My insurance company would t insure the my house when I bought it until The box was replaced.
flilmawinstone@reddit
New to home ownership : I suggest you find I nice YouTube home repair channel and spend your free time getting up to speed. Otherwise you are going to waste a lot of $ having contractors do things you could do yourself (e.g basic toilet repair, lock replacement) or wasting even more $$$ doing things that aren’t necessary because some shady contractor saw an opportunity to take advantage (e.g. moving an electrical panel outside)
DonutAdmirable9831@reddit
You need a new electrician
JustJamieJam@reddit
I’d never buy a house with an outside electric box because my first thought would be it’d be very easy for a murderer or intruder to shut my power off without even getting inside yet!!
Snobolski@reddit
If that's your first thought you need to switch to a different flavor of media consumption.
Sec0nd_Mouse@reddit
It’s easy enough to snip off the “security” tag on your meter and pop out the meter. Don’t overthink it. Just put a lock on your panel.
It’s intentionally easy because the fire department wants it that way. First thing they do at a structure fire is kill power and gas.
DarienLambert@reddit
Is code now to have an outdoor shutoff, sadly. Even when the rest of the panel is inside. It’s for fire safety.
Distribution-Radiant@reddit
Why?
Code in Plano doesn't require the breaker box to be outside. IIRC it just requires a main disconnect outside. In an older house with a 100A (or less) service, they can just cut the tag on the meter and yank it to kill power in an emergency. Most panels are in the garage; the fire department are experts at getting through a closed garage door and throwing the main breaker if it happens to be inside (and they're almost always in the garage).
But yes, generally major changes like that require bringing everything up to code. Including GFCIs, AFCIs, etc. Your old panel will probably get turned into a junction box and get a flat cover, with the new panel directly under or next to the meter. You're looking at a small fortune to relocate a panel though - at least $10k.
Try to keep the panel where it's at; if nothing else, so it can be grandfathered.
talltxn66@reddit
Yeah, that won’t work on houses in Plano built in the 70’s because most boxes are in a closet, which is an against code now. To move it from a closet to the garage would probably add about $15k minimum to the already expensive process ($5k minimum) of replacing a defective box like Federal Pacific. You are correct, the old panel becomes a junction box and is screwed shut.
Distribution-Radiant@reddit
Ah crap, I forgot about them being in a closet. I lived in a 60s apartment with the panel not only in a coat closet, but it was a Zinsco too. Discovered they don't trip when a ceiling light shorted out and rained sparks down until I killed the breaker (wall switch melted during this, couldn't turn it off).
Ultimately, the upgrades are dictated by the inspector. Plano switched to the 2023 NEC pretty recently - but most houses I've been in use GFCI outlets in bathrooms and kitchens (usually 1 per, then daisy chained for the room) instead of a breaker... it's cheaper.
My mom's 1995 house has a GFCI in the garage that also handles the original outside outlets (they had two added for landscape lighting and a small backyard fountain, they're individual GFCIs). Then one in each bathroom, and one in the kitchen to protect every outlet in the kitchen.
My last apartment (though it was an 80s build in Garland, originally built as condos by the infamous Danny Faulkner) was weird... the only GFCIs were in the bathroom and the outlet closest to the sink. Every kitchen outlet had its own "breaker" (Federal Pacific of course, but they did trip when the compressor died on my AC). Around 2017 they sent in a crew that replaced EVERY kitchen outlet with a GFCI (and they did it live... no way would I do that), but that was after they'd had a fire in another building.
judginUhoes@reddit (OP)
Thank you! Can you elaborate on it being “grandfathered”
Distribution-Radiant@reddit
"Grandfathered" being it applies to code when the structure was built. Major modifications often require bringing everything up to whatever version of the NEC (National Electric Code) that the jurisdiction has adopted. Plano current operates under the 2023 version, which is pretty strict about GFCIs and AFCIs. I'm not saying this is a bad thing at all - GFCIs and AFCIs do save lives - but it gets expensive really fast. If they can get away with not replacing the panel for whatever you're doing, it can probably be grandfathered - even if they're just adding an outside disconnect.
A panel replacement may or may not trigger this, even if not moved (100% if moved, 50/50 if not moved if it's a like for like service... i.e. still 100 amp). Your best bet is to ask the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) inspector exactly what they want done to make it compliant, along with your licensed electrician. Your electrician should be familiar with the local code if they're decent and pulled a permit (most of DFW operates under 2020-2023 NEC). If they didn't pull a permit, you may have trouble selling later.
GheistHund374@reddit
Why....why do you want to do this?
talltxn66@reddit
Probably because the existing box is one that has been proven to be a fire hazard - like Federal Pacific boxes have been. Federal Pacific boxes are common on houses built in Plano in the 70’e and before. the box on my house had to be changed when I bought it because the lender and insurer wouldn’t Participate if it wasn’t.
Cloudy_Automation@reddit
One thing you can do which is cheaper than replacing the breaker panel is to replace the meter enclosure with a meter enclosure with up to 4 breakers. You don't need a main breaker for up to 4 breakers. This allows leaving the existing panel where it is and feeding it from one of the breakers in the meter enclosure sized like the old panel's main breaker. This leaves the existing breaker panel alone, leaving everything coming out of that panel alone. It becomes a sub-panel. Then, you can add new circuits to the other 3 breakers. This saves the labor of disconnecting and reconnecting all the circuits from the old panel.
This will require up to date two-point grounding, and removing the ground-neutral bond from what is now the sub-panel. Typically, the hot, cold, and gas piping (if metalic) need to be bonded to the ground in the meter enclosure, which is your new main panel.
If you need a service upgrade (e.g. from 100A), that may require the utility to install more capable wiring from the transformer to the meter, but again, you can still use this approach to keep the existing breaker panel and it's downstream connections.
Houses built in the 70s and 80s are not easily converted to GFCI and AFI because of neutral stealing used to install 3-way light switches at the time. AFIs mostly protect against people running extension cords under a carpet which is always getting walked on, eventually cracking the insulation. But, modern houses with AFIs usually have enough receptacles to not need extension cords running under carpeting. Yes, there are other possible issues, but they are much less common.
Regular_or_BQ@reddit
Sounds like you need a more honest electrician. We have a 1990s build and have had a lot of reno done. Collin County Electrical is family owned and operated, and did a great job at a fair price. Rodney is a young retired vet and said he'd be here at 0900. 0857 this man is parked and sat in the truck until 0900 and knocked on the door! He gave me great advice, and did what he committed to at the price I was quoted (in writing). We've used him three times now including upgrading the breaker box.
I side eye 90% of the contractors in this area so I truly do like this electrician and fully recommend him.
Txag1989@reddit
Many older homes have breaker boxes in clothes closets. That is no longer allowed by code. Many/most breaker boxes of this time (federal pacific and zinsco) are unsafe. The easiest/cheapest/least obtrusive fix if you need to replace your breaker box that’s in a closet is to move it to the other side of the wall, outside. I don’t believe code allows you to cover/obstruct your breaker box any longer, so most people don’t want it flipped onto a bedroom, bathroom, or other visible wall. If your breaker box is in your garage, utility room, etc, you don’t generally need to move it outside due to code or esthetics.
Accomplished_Wash_97@reddit
Not an electrician, but my understanding is (at least in my town) that code doesn't require panel to be outside - only a cut-off so that FD can shut it off.
Txag1989@reddit
Many houses in Plano have panels in closets. Code (not specific to Plano) no longer allows this. There are likely other restrictions I’m not aware of. If you have an unsafe federal pacific or zinsco panel in a closet and replace it, you have to move it outside. If it’s in your garage, you are fine.
Dabduthermucker@reddit
We spent 1.5k to have the main breaker installed outside on top of what we spent to have the panel replaced. I couldn't wrap my little brain around having the panel outside.
Dabduthermucker@reddit
Ours was inside the garage. We had the separate cutoff installed outside and the new panel where the old panel was. It was 1.5k more to do it that way but I couldn't wrap my little brain around having the panel outside. I feel like its been simpler to add circuits than it would have been had we not done that.
judginUhoes@reddit (OP)
Sorry I think I meant my electric panel….
one_is_enough@reddit
They are the same thing. I think everyone is wondering why you want to do this. Because, as you guessed, it will open a can of worms.
nalditopr@reddit
It's a stupid idea.
PM_ME_YER_MUDFLAPS@reddit
Breaker box needs to stay inside. A weatherproof one would basically double the price and the risk of problems.