Warning to those considering ATP Flight School
Posted by Subject_Donkey_698@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 71 comments
I used to work for them, and they are about as unethical as it gets when it comes to business practice. One example is that they will force new graduates to go work admin jobs like training support or admissions for 14 weeks at a time rather than actually instruct because they don’t want to pay salaried people to do those jobs. Meanwhile, those new instructors are losing out on over three months of time building just so they can save a few dollars on labor costs.
They will promise “39 career tracks” and airline partnerships that haven‘t been taking new cadets for ages.
They will kick out CFIs immediately after they reach 1500 hours.
The base tuition is $124K, and that doesn’t include check rides. They will trick and pressure applicants into taking Sallie Mae loans that are regularly in the range of 15%-18%.
All this, and you don’t get a college degree or R-ATP minimums. They advertise the program can be completed in 12 months or less, but that rarely ever happens. They are lying through their teeth lol.
If you want to learn how to fly commercially, stay far away from ATP. There are so many better options.
No-Cell-8208@reddit
Any school that requires upfront payment (most 141s) is working off of a pyramid model. They have to drop you after 1,500 hours because if they kept CFIs on after, it would clog the pipeline. You'd have more instructors at the top than students at the bottom. They also need a certain percentage of students to fail, because then they get the payment without having to deliver the service.
Not new - your only advantage with ATP is that they're less likely than others to go tango uniform with your money before you finish. Most of you are too young to remember, but look up Jet University or Silver State Helicopters.
Mrfunkyclouds@reddit
Dont forget, atp pads thier numbers of pass rates to maintain government funding. But the way they keep that is by simply kicking out students at the snap of thier fingers on xride fail. So on paper, they say they have like a 90% pass rate or somthing to keep Sallie Mae funding and other contracts. When in reality its not that at all. They just remove you from the system if you are projected to take to long. Can't be a statistic if you dont exsist.
Curious_Response3663@reddit
Only thing I really have to say to this is that it is another avenue for people to checkout give it a look if you put in the work the outcome is the same as everywhere else I got done with atp in 8 months you just have to put your head down and grind it out and also the 14 weeks is just for the front of the line spot into a training center it isn’t mandatory to work there just if you really want that spot you better do the twelve weeks.
Brotein40@reddit
Back when I was looking into ATP it was about 80K. I did the math, paying minimum I would have paid about 180K throughout the life of the loan and paying as much as I can it would’ve still been about 120K.
The catch is if I had bit the bullet I would’ve finished in 7 months (instead of 3 years) which is 2018,which means there is a chance I would’ve been a a regional CA or major FO now. I paid as you go- which took me much longer to get to where I would’ve want.
Take this comment how you will.
RaiseTheDed@reddit
It was probably a better deal when it was 80k. It's now 55% more expensive.
The loans didn't make sense then, imagine the loan now with a 124k price tag. Some have posted their loan details here, and they're paying 250k-300k by the end of the loan.
Wonderful-Cricket106@reddit
There is no debating that the program is expensive, but I don’t understand why people clutch their pearls about it as if the value isn’t there.
I went through ATP from 0 to MEI in 11 months with no checkride failures. Would I recommend people go? No, because I don’t want my recommendation to be the catalyst for someone being in the hole.
But to pretend the value isn’t there is simply delusional. The average person who pays as they go, takes what, maybe 4 years to get their ratings? While the vast majority of ATP students get in & out in 12 months.
Assuming all other factors stay the same between the ATP student and pay-as-you-go student, the ATP student will have 2-3 years of seniority over the other. That’s 2-3 years of FO pay, and hundreds of numbers in seniority
I am not yet at the legacies, but I’d be willing to bet that a good handful of captains would pay $120k for a 3-year boost in seniority. Again, I don’t recommend anyone go to ATP, but I personally have no regrets.
Also, if you decide to use the full life of the 15yr loan and let the interest get your amount paid to a quarter million dollars while making captain pay, that’s on you, and there’s probably no helping you with that kind of financial decision making.
This is gonna get downvoted to hell but not a single lie was told.
imme267@reddit
ATP hate in this sub has become such a circle jerk that there's no point trying to post a positive POV of it. You mention 2-3 years bump at the BEGINNING of a career, but what about the last 2-3 years when you are making 300k+? That, plus the 401k factored in could easily be an extra million. But sure, 30 years ago you saved 50k by going to a mom and pop.
cfyellaaa@reddit
I had a similar experience. Went through 0 to CFI, CFII, MEI in about 12 months. Chose not to work for ATP and went to teach at a mom and pop shop. 2 years and 1500 hours later landed at a regional. Spent 7 years progressing through FO, CA, and LCA while making +400k. Focused on paying off my loans instead of buying sports cars and boats. Saved a bunch of money and took a big pay cut but now on my second year at a legacy. The value of ATP is that they can get you done faster than almost anywhere else if you put in the work. Sure you can go somewhere else and fly everyday but not many people have that kind of cash on hand which means you’ll be taking breaks to work. More breaks mean more hours and money spent repeating lessons. Getting a seniority number asap is the key to job security and being able to start paying things off.
RaiseTheDed@reddit
Of course, it's entirely situational. I works for plenty of people, it doesn't for some.
The post I wrote includes not only the bad and the ugly but the good too. I just want people to be informed of what there getting into.
issa_knife23@reddit
I did ATP in 2020 when it was 85k and came out about $100k in the hole. 6 years later still owe 80k. I am a FO on a 320 close to upgrading tho. Not at a legacy however. If I paid as I went I’d probably still be in training or instructing
Brotein40@reddit
It has its place in the aviation community…but 95% of people has no business giving them their business and need to understand what they signed.
RaiseTheDed@reddit
Yeah, it works for people, but it can be devastating to the 18 year old who couldn't handle it and dropped out/got kicked out in the middle of commercial.
Which is why I made a whole post about ATP, and comment it on every post I see when someone mentions the school. I don't want to dissuade people from going there, but I want them to understand what they're signing up for.
Brotein40@reddit
Oh yeah. In my mind this is for 38 years old former semi-successful sales rep trying for a career change, or military drone guys switching over… iconically that’s how ATP starts.
BasilProfessional09@reddit
Yep ATP was worth it from 2018-2022. I’m a regional CA now in my twenties and it worked out for me.
TristanwithaT@reddit
I paid 65k for instrument through CFII back in 2019 with a 6% fixed loan rate. Insane how much it’s gone up now
scudrunner14@reddit
I was quoted last summer at 91 grand for instrument-CFII and that wasn’t even including examiner fees. Not to mention they don’t even include MEI anymore. I almost asked the dude on the phone if lube was included with that price
Distinct-Medium-6150@reddit
I was thinking between ascent aviation in van nuys or sling pilot academy which should I go for ?
Maleficent-Basil8626@reddit
Just because YOU had issues with it doesn’t make it a bad place to train, it’s expensive as shit, yeah, but they do a damn good job preparing you for the airlines.
I finished my program in 10 months, with a checkride failure
I never had to work for admin to get an instructing job, that is a voluntary position to take to guarantee you get a job at the training center you want immediately after you finish your time at admin, that doesn’t mean you can’t get a spot there sooner
Once I hit 1500 I left ON MY OWN, I was actually offered that if I wanted to, I could stay on for a period of time. They didn’t kick me out.
This being said, the corporate side of things at ATP is a complete mess, a lot of things get lost in the weeds of things. It’s corporate making decisions on pilot, which… is exactly how it happens in the airlines. You’re just another seniority number in the airlines, and people can’t overlook your every step along the way.
There are some people at ATP that most are not so fond of, I’m looking at you RDOT of the East… but once again, you’ll have that anywhere regardless of what you’re doing.
ATP does a FANTASTIC job of training you for the airline training environment. Out of my new hire class, 6 of us went to ATP, 6 were 141/other part 61 people, and 2 were previous 135 experience. All 6 of the ATP guys went thru with zero failures/retests on any check event. That 6 that went elsewhere had 5 people need recheck events. ATP drills it into you from day one how airline training will go and how it will be, I can’t say that they do that elsewhere. If you’re looking for airline specific training, go to ATP.
85inchweener@reddit
ATP got me my PPL in 8 months. Yes. Just the PPL.
Minute-Illustrator64@reddit
Stay away from AOA too
Human-Iron9265@reddit
I did the program in 8 months. Saw others do it in a similar time frame. To say it “rarely” happens that people even finish in 12 months is just incorrect. This was also nearly 4 years ago, when you still had MEI added to the list of certs.
ZanderBWC@reddit
I've never been to ATP, but every flight school I've been to has been pretty unethical too 😭
Subject_Donkey_698@reddit (OP)
It was particularly sickening to me to see brand new graduates get forced to work shitty admin jobs after they paid all that money and should have been instructing. They are all promised jobs as CFI’s upon graduation.
Lil_Pump_Jetski@reddit
ATP has its flaws but this just isn’t true. ATP has a setup where if you are a graduate and want to work at your home training center even though they aren’t hiring for it, you can work admin for however long to get guaranteed a spot there. It’s optional otherwise you are free to apply to locations with openings
OzrielArelius@reddit
at least they got a job... what do you want them to do? most CFIs can't get a job right now, not sure what you expect
bureaucrat37@reddit
Nothing new. That’s the way it’s been since the 90’s. Not a secret.
Itchy-Bus-4780@reddit
ugh fr all these schools just out here tryna scam us smh
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
Not Twin Oaks in Portland OR!
BasilProfessional09@reddit
It’s just a cut throat business that usually looses more money than it makes.
320sim@reddit
I once met a guy who ATP sold the whole training AND the “time build to 1500 hrs program” to. He took out a loan for 250k thinking he'd walk right onto a six figure 121 job and the hiring madness door shut right in his face. and Over two years later he has no pilot job. He works line at an FBO and only flies for his biannual flight review. I can’t imagine what having that debt is like just as he becomes more and more unhirable. I think ATP makes more unrealistic promises than other flight schools I've seen
No-Foundation-8034@reddit
One guy i knew had 109k at 11.5% with monthly minimum payment at 1700. Was saying he would hit minimums in a year, be off a couple months later, and pay the loan off in 2 or 3 years.
Hit minimums 6-8 months past anticipated and last i heard still hasn’t got called by anyone.
AtrophiedTraining@reddit
Right?!! There is so much shadyness in the flight schools owners. I think the thin margins make it happen.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
Shop owner selling pickaxes to gold miners comes to mind
No-Cookie6847@reddit
It’s a gamble. I did ATP, great instructor, 0 fails, 13 month, and never had a problem finding a job after. My colleagues who failed or dropped out were usually bad performers. Also Sallie Mae at 4%. I’d do it again.
TheMonkeyPickler@reddit
Aint nobody grtting a 4% loan these days. Good for you though that was a great deal.
LawManActual@reddit
I never understand why of all of the legitimate criticisms you can levy at ATP we have to go with these inflammatory posts about them.
Look, I went in with my private already and finished the program in 4 months. Stepped right into a job there and instructed 1,000 hours in 12 months, then stepped right into an airline job within 2 weeks.
All that on a 75k multi engine program. With no failures. I feel like my money was well spent. Show me another program that takes a private pilot and gets them on property at an airline in 14 months… I got exactly what I paid for.
I’ve said it before and will keep saying it, that program isn’t for college aged kids. They don’t take it seriously enough, or respect the degree of risk involved and that’s the problem, it’s not an ATP problem. People that came in that had been in the workforce, not college, did just fine.
kdbleeep@reddit
Yeah, I think we know by now to stay away from ATP.
Brotein40@reddit
So this is AI account? I’m so confused his profile says it is automated
kdbleeep@reddit
No, Reddit's automated bot finder is not fully accurate.
Brotein40@reddit
That sure sounds like something an AI would say.
kdbleeep@reddit
Oh shit, maybe I am AI.
Subject_Donkey_698@reddit (OP)
I’m not an AI, and I did create a new account to try and stay anonymous just on the off chance someone from ATP decides to try to sue me for libel or something lol
Weasel474@reddit
And yet tomorrow we'll still get 8 posts saying "I read all the negatives about ATP but really think I'm different, is a 30% loan ok?"
kdbleeep@reddit
You can't help people who don't want to be helped!
Air_Warrior@reddit
Always deserves repeating
OzrielArelius@reddit
aside from it being really expensive, nothing else really stood out to me as inherently bad
73Heavy@reddit
I went through atp and instructed there for about 2 years. As an instructor, I can’t tell you the number of times they would tell me to just push someone through or “add a few hours on”. I finally started asking them if they felt that course of action was in line with their core value of “integrity with the student’s investment”. I don’t think I was well liked amongst the higher ups
AIRdomination@reddit
Take as old as time lol.
spicyramen321@reddit
ATP was great in my experience, especially as a student and I put up with stuff as an instructor just to build my time. The experience is what you make of it. Yes it’s a full time job and hard, yes you need to make some sacrifices to get through. From what I’ve seen, most people talking bad about ATP couldn’t handle the intense training and expectations or liked to make excuses for everything they could. If you can make it through ATPs fast track program you can make it through regional airline training, and you can make it through legacy airline training. It prepares you for what it takes to succeed.
rkba260@reddit
Its like you didnt ask any of your instructors or do any due diligence...
I did their program and bounced to instruct elsewhere.
Also, I did their program in 10 months and that included a delay waiting for an MEI DOE.
benbalooky@reddit
ATP is short for 'Abusive Tuition Pit'
gigabyte898@reddit
I always heard “Assume The Position” lol
BullpenCatcher@reddit
Always Taxiing Planes.. as they want you doing full stop taxi backs on most all pattern work.
Alternatively - Assholes Taking Paychecks
Effective-Scratch673@reddit
"Always Taxiing Planes.. as they want you doing full stop taxi backs on most all pattern work."
Damn. First time I'm hearing that one. That sucks
GoobScoob@reddit
What part of this is unethical? They only have so many students and giving someone an admin job to keep them busy is better than just putting them out on their ass in this job market.
As for the partnerships and cadet programs you might as well blame the whole industry for that because it’s not new nor is it unique to ATP.
Kick out at 1500 - gotta make room for the next guy who is stuck doing an admin job.
“Trick and pressure applicants into taking Sallie Mae” - you’re an adult making a life changing financial decision. The only way someone is surprised by any of this is if they don’t do their homework.
Don’t get me wrong, ATP has its downsides but you don’t seem to be understanding the full picture both in terms of ATP as an organization and the state of the industry as a whole. If the job market was hot right now you’d already be at the airlines making $$ and not here on Reddit complaining.
Torvaldicus_Unknown@reddit
Found the ATP guy
GoobScoob@reddit
I am an alumni. It worked for me. I’ve been around the world and I’m debt free. I have former students at legacy airlines now. I don’t owe ATP anything and I’m certainly not trying to advertise for them. If I believed it was shit I would say it was shit but the reality is the vast majority of graduates are out having successful careers, not sitting here bitching on Reddit. Many of them hit the hiring wave and are at the airlines whereas those who took the slower route are sitting on the sidelines.
Again, I’m not saying it’s the best option and like all big schools it has issues but this post reads like a disenfranchised teenager wrote it. OP is - I assume - a grown man blaming the job market and his own lack of diligence for his misfortunes.
Subject_Donkey_698@reddit (OP)
I’m not a pilot, I did admin work for them when I was there. How would you feel if you just spent $124K on your flight training and had to go work for training support for 4 months immediately after? It’s a particularly shitty, cheap move.
GoobScoob@reddit
Let’s see 90% of newly minted CFIs right now are finding NO work. If I was a new CFI and someone offered me an aviation related job I would say thank you and put my head down and work till a flying position opened up.
How would you suggest the problem be remedied? Just hire everybody who graduates right away as a CFI? You would have way too many instructors. They’ll be sitting around flying 12 hours a month making $500 1099. There aren’t enough students. This isn’t even a new phenomenon.
Even in the best of times there’s always been way more grads than students. Again- this is not unique to ATP. Every large flight school that produces CFIs has this ratio.
When I finished back in the day there weren’t any slots available. Hell there wasn’t even any admin work. I put my name on the waitlist and went on with my life- assuming no other spot would open up. I instructed elsewhere for about 6 months and then a spot did open up and I took it.
I feel for green CFIs right now, I really do- but getting on here and moaning about how “unethical” ATP is both naive and just flat out wrong. If anybody is surprised at the bleak job prospects after they finish then they simply didn’t do their diligence.
Effective-Scratch673@reddit
"The vast majority of graduates..."
First of all the vast majority didn't graduate. So the vast majority of ATP candidates are left paying huge debts with no aviation careers
GoodLuckAndGodspeed@reddit
Listen, I think everyone needs to make the best choice of flight instruction that works for them, their budget, goals, etc. I'm just looking to give my 2 cents on ATP as someone who has flown with two mom and pop flight schools, and ATP. Both sides have their pros and cons.
The $ with ATP is high, no way around it, but most students I trained with and knew from other training centers were also done with their training within a year. ATP does help facilitate your application/ entry to some cadet programs, but obviously admission is at the discretion of the airline, not ATP.
It's very clear that they will only keep you on for up to 1500 hours, this isn't hidden. CFIs do not need to do any admin work in order to get hired; it's an option as something of an "internship" in order to have a bit more personal influence over your Indoc date/ training center location. Not everyone gets hired at the end of training to instruct. Sometimes its performance-based/ sometimes its just bad timing in the hiring cycle.
ATP is up front with the costs you'll incur. That doesn't necessarily make the $100K+ in fees easier to swallow, but the prices are up-front. Sally Mae can be excessive, but know what's financially smart for you before you commit to anything. Checkrides are on you (unless there's a promotion they occasionally run), and this is also clearly stated. The training timeline is condensed, and while pricey, they do get you your certs. If you stick to the curriculum/ timeline, it will likely be less than a year (YMMV). My instructors have all been knowledgeable, professional, and easy to fly with. Occasionally I'll hear of a baf apple instructor, the exact same as other flight schools I've trained with, (once discovered, they're often let go from ATP).
I'm switching careers (like a lot of folks), and may have different views/priorities from others. I'm not saying OP is wrong; everyone has their own opinions, but my experience with ATP has been generally positive. You may like what I have to say, or maybe you don't like it- I just want to share my perspective for all those out there seeking information. Shoot me a message if you have questions or comments.
TL;DR ATP is pricey, but is clear about about costs, timeline, job prospects, etc. They don't pay DPE fees (unless you sign up during a promotion). You aren't guaranteed a job on completion, but you don't have to work admin unless you decide to (which could expedite your timeline to an instructor position). You aren't guaranteed acceptance into cadet programs just by being in ATP, but they facilitate the connection. Like most things, it's what you make of it. Do your due diligence to ensure you're making the most informed decision you can in regards to your own flight training.
EliteEthos@reddit
It’s almost like we have an FAQ for this reason…
lil_layne@reddit
Wait their 124k doesn’t include checkrides? I knew it didn’t include living expenses but you pay them 124k and that doesn’t include the checkride fees? Wtf
Subject_Donkey_698@reddit (OP)
Current tuition is $123,995 for PPL-CFI-I (No MEI, mind you) and doesn’t include checkrides or a living stipend.
BrianBash@reddit
I’m just saying…I’m not shady. Follow the insta for homegrown flight school stuff.
FSFreakman21@reddit
I would surmise that most people on this sub have probably heard of ATP and know it’s a pilot mill that attracts young people with shiny jet syndrome. However Flying Magazine and AOPA are happy to take their money to display their full page ads in their publications and have no incentive to stop doing so.
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
Glad to hear things are still the same 20+ years later.
MangledX@reddit
Gasp. ATP does shady business?? Get outta here..
Askacfi23@reddit
I started ATP in 2018 graduated accordingly. Their program is cut throat but I got lucky with the hiring spree that followed. Back then tuition was 65k but out of five people I started with, i was the only one who finished the program accordingly and now as an airline pilot. I still do not recommend them.
iflyfreight@reddit
This is my favorite song
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I used to work for them, and they are about as unethical as it gets when it comes to business practice. One example is that they will force new graduates to go work admin jobs like training support or admissions for 14 weeks at a time rather than actually instruct because they don’t want to pay salaried people to do those jobs. Meanwhile, those new instructors are losing out on over three months of time building just so they can save a few dollars on labor costs.
They will promise “39 career tracks” and airline partnerships that haven‘t been taking new cadets for ages.
They will kick out CFIs immediately after they reach 1500 hours.
The base tuition is $124K, and that doesn’t include check rides. They will trick and pressure applicants into taking Sallie Mae loans that are regularly in the range of 15%-18%.
All this, and you don’t get a college degree or R-ATP minimums. They advertise the program can be completed in 12 months or less, but that rarely ever happens. They are lying through their teeth lol.
If you want to learn how to fly commercially, stay far away from ATP. There are so many better options.
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