Why don't Greek neighbourhoods have space and greenery as seen in most other Balkan and Eastern European countries?
Posted by Happy-Hour88@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 111 comments
I liked the ancient stuff and the Glyphada beaches in Athens but nothing else. Even tge residential districts were too much concrete, very few parks, didn't see many playgrounds. No space between the flats and there's this feeling concrete is everywhere and it feels claustrophobic.
I know Greek climate is hell in summer but places like Serres or Drama don't have much warmer summers than Bulgarian cities and yet even there tye apartment buildings are too packed close together.
Aside from the beaches I couldn't find a place within Athens to escape the claustrophobic feeling and experience wide open spaces.
peepmet@reddit
Others have mentioned parts of it but here is more coherent response.
For well over a thousand years Athens was a very small settlement. At some points it was almost uninhabited. In the early 1800s hundreds it only had a population of a few thousand people.
In 1834, shortly after Greece gained independence the newly installed king Otto decided to make it his capital, largely due to its historical significance. This led to an immediate spike in population as people moved to the new capital. Greece's economy however was still an agricultural one which meant that the majority of the population still lived in the countryside outside of urban centers.
The next important milestone is the refugee crisis of the 1920s. Approximately 1.500.000 people came to Greece and most of them came to Athens. This lit a fire under the government and they adopted a Khrushchev style solution of "build as much as possible as quickly as possible". But even then, Athens remained a small city. The problems wouldn't arrive until later.
The next and most important milestone came in the time after WW2. Starting in the late 50s Greece experienced a wave of industrialization driven by tarrifs and other protectionist measures. For the sake of convenience all these new factories were built in Athens. Thus there was suddenly a massive demand for workers in the capital, a demand that the poor people in the countryside were more than happy to fulfill.
Starting in the early 60s, there was a massive wave of internal migration and all these people wanted homes to live in, which created even more demand for workers who wanted homes to live in... and so on.
This is where "antiparohi" comes in. It's a very simple thing. Someone who owns a piece of land sells it to a developer but instead of receiving cash he receives a number of apartments in the building that will be constructed. This method allowed rapid development without requiring the construction companies to take huge loans or to keep large cash reserves.
Antiparohi however is not to blame for the modern shape of Athens. It was just a tool. The real reasons are far simpler. Corruption and incompetence. Incompetence because there was very little urban planning. Corruption because what little planning there was, was ignored and no one did anything to enforce it.
So, there you have it. The TLDR history of the city.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Thanks! I wonder where do children from Athens play, I don't remember seeing any playgrounds there even in residential neighborhood. I often visit them as a tourist to see how living there would feel. I noticed because playgrounds are abundant in Sofia.
peepmet@reddit
In my municipality there are some playgrounds as well as squares and "mini parks" for lack of a better term.
I don't know which residential neighborhoods you visited. Maybe they were there but they were small so you missed them. Maybe you didn't see them because you went to crappy neighborhoods that didn't have them.
PS. My municipality isn't one of rich ones (I know people are going to say that).
Willing-Actuator-509@reddit
First of all Greece is not Eastern European or Balkan culturally. Second have you ever been in Naples?
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Because of city planning. You should see the newer districts in Sofia where city has sold every single plot of land available and no public spaces exist
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
And why Greece has always sucked at city planning? It was always Capitalist. Communism did most things wrong but urban planning was generally good (aside from some exceptions like the Romanian commies' tendency of destroying historic city cores to build commie flats like in Giurgiu).
Vaisiamarrr@reddit
Hey, even in Romania there are good examples of communist city planning like Drumul Taberei and Balta Alba neighbourhoods in Bucharest
SuspiciousShock8294@reddit
I'd argue something similar about Belgrade. "Communist" architecture is the last (imo) example of urban planning that had a human persons life in mind. Great thing to check out in that regard is Lazaro Kardenas walkway and Savski kej in Novi Beograd ,,blokovi'', by the Sava river.. And last of those were built in late 70's early 80's.
None of the subsequent urban development (regardless of how it looks - and it does not look great) had to do only with money and exploatation of each square centimetre for the sole purpose of either making or laundering money (or usually both) through construction.
And i am sad to say that it does not look if anything will change in the future.
skviki@reddit
Novi Beigrad has big green areas. But is totally “detached”.
Communist urban planing more often than not “teaches” and “shapes” the individual. Modernism as s movement in free societies played with that delusion too but it died out. A very smart artistic critique of modernism you can find in movies by Jacques Tati.
Best and most determined urban planners were also fascists but most of all the nazis. Fascist EUR us such an example. Looks nice and photographs nice but is a little alien and detached. People don’t like to be “taught”, that feeling “removes” them. Speers plans for Germania also looked well in models and I’d argue on that scale they even may have worked.
The continuation of these architectual ideas after the was with modernist movements, as it was before the war (very socialistically inspired - where socialism is just another side of the coin from fascism), and they created a modernist city in Brasilia - doesn’t work it is alienating. My father’s uncle was one of the building engineers for Niemeyer and I’ve been there a couple of times. Interesting and fascinating to visit, very nice architectural and planning creation but a monument to what happens if you let ideology in a proffession go to far and become a god complex - meliorating human beings through creating space for them, luke they’re lemmings.
Dawncracker_555@reddit
Do not forget Cerak Vinogradi. That neighbourhood is an example of QOL centered urban planning full of walkable spaces.
SuspiciousShock8294@reddit
Right! Bravo! Actually that is the prime example of what an urban development made "to a measure of a human life in a city" should be.
I do not go there often myself, and that's why i didn't think of it, but that place is really nice, imo. It was built later than the last NBG block was. I think it was finished in the late 80's, and it was even designated as a "cultural & historic" landmark, as an urban space of great architectural significance by the state... Which, sadly, does not hold much meaning and value in Serbia anymore. RIP Hotel Jugoslavija!
skviki@reddit
It has zero to do with capitalism though. Zero. There are good practices of good city planing and bad regardless of the system. And the obsession with monumentalism in socialist systems created vast concrete open spaces without greenery.
I don’t how you deduct it’s “capitalism” by drawing cherrypicked lines to “prove” your point round that area? Why do capitalist west cities have greenery then? Or will we deduce on isolated and cherrypicked sample? Come on … stop with those cheap arguments. It may be easy to impress freshmen uni girls but it isn’t serious converstation.
NoTackle718@reddit
You do realize Greece had various fascist dictatorships with a controlled economy or variations of that for most of the twentieth century right? That doesn't really provide this "capitalist" dream of exponential development either.
Ok-Chef1896@reddit
Being a fascist dictatorship does not disqualify the country from being capitalist.
Capitalism is not only when a country is a liberal democracy.
NoTackle718@reddit
Controlled economy is the term you should have focused on instead. There was no economic function that was not fudged during that time, and trade did not follow capitalist guidelines. I'm not saying it was a socialist economy, but comparing communist with capitalist is extremely simplistic and does not say anything about the economics of those countries. Even Soviet countries had variations of economies and would not be adequately described as simply communist.
Ok-Chef1896@reddit
Communism is not an economic system on its own.
Communism is simply Marx's vision of future society, a classless society without a state - he does not go into details how would economy of such society work.
Socialism, according to Lenin, is a step stone to communism and involves complete state control over the economy - a centrally planned economy - what is between a full market economy and centrally planned economy is a socialist market economy in China (the key distinction is large SOE contribution of economy and strong party oversight).
Fascism on other hand has many characterstics, but fundamentally it is not trying to dismantle capitalism. Some capitalist will be favored (government goons) over others, the competition won't be fair, but at the end of the day the means of production are owned by select few (as long as they are buddy buddy with the state).
So yeah. What was in place in Greece was capitalism, not the most humane version of capitalism, but capitalism nonetheless. Like is said, capitalism in context of liberal democracies is a relative modern thing - capitalism was definitely a thing before WW1 era, and back then the markets were hardly free and very much influenced by political forces.
NoTackle718@reddit
Thanks for the unnecessary overview of socialism and communism but you still don't address the main issue. Check out corporatism - saying the word capitalism in this context means nothing, unless you think the economy of fascist Italy was also capitalist in its function. I'm not referring to ideological direction, I'm talking about function. If you think that a controlled economy in a fascist country functions the same as an economy in a liberal democracy (despite both being described as capitalist) then you're not paying attention to any of the defining elements of that economy eg. Degree of state interventionism, abolition of labor market or not, international trade restrictions etc
Ok-Chef1896@reddit
Well, corporatism is also capitalism in function, the wealth is controlled by select few. It's just not the more kind and fair capitalism we enjoy under liberal democracies.
I agree that the functions are not the same, but underlaying mechanism and power distribution is what makes both capitalist.
I think I'm just looking it from a more theoretical standpoint, while you are looking at the more practical side of it.
NoTackle718@reddit
We're discussing urban development and how that is funded by the state - why would the theoretical aspect interest me here? I get that you're not wrong but I don't get why you need to die on this hill right now.
Full disclosure my politics are on the far left end of the spectrum, but in this case distinguishing the flavor of capitalism we're discussing is kind of important. The extreme state interventionism in building housing played a huge role in how Greek cities developed, as well as the forced destruction of small agriculture and coerced urbanization of populations. This was only made possible by a controlled economy, and mentioning it as capitalist vs communist would somehow imply "why didn't this country evolve the same way as Sweden?" Both are capitalist, right? The answer is in the function of the state and how the economy was controlled by it in this case, which goes against a lot of the "pure" capitalist dogma anyway and is argued by many to not even really fit the definition of capitalism other than money good people bad mentality which is the most abstract level of what it even means.
Ok-Chef1896@reddit
You were implying that Greece was somehow not capitalist, at least that was my understanding - apologies if that is not the case.
The reason is the people, the Sweden, and the Nordics had very strong worker movements, which lead to the "compromise" towards the workers and the society as a whole leading to the modern Nordic countries.
In case of Greece the communists got crushed in the Civil war and by proxy the working class got pacified which results in a more brutal for of capitalism.
And why is this important? Well for capitalism to not degenerate into extremely exploitative form a strong class consciousness is required.
What is more interesting to me, historically, why didn't fascism arise in Sweden, but it did arise in Greece after the war (and then got the blessing from to deal with commies)? In Spain we also see the rise of fascism, and then the subsequent civil war, and not the compromise with the working class that we saw in Nordic countries.
> The answer is in the function of the state and how the economy was controlled by it in this case, which goes against a lot of the "pure" capitalist dogma anyway and is argued by many to not even really fit the definition of capitalism other than money good people bad mentality which is the most abstract level of what it even means.
I think we sort of agree, it's just the topic is very nuanced.
NoTackle718@reddit
Again, I don't need you to explain the question "why not like Sweden" to me, i said it was implied by the person saying that Greece wasn't even communist (and therefore had no reason to have such badly designed cities, according to them). There is nuance and that is why it is important to point out the element of fascist economics - which you dismissed but now say is nuanced. I don't think we're disagreeing per se but you definitely have been trying to be contrary to something.
I was not implying that Greece was not capitalist, but that there is a sea of difference between a fascist state and a socialist or liberal Democratic state, and not only ideological difference. You choose to emphasize ideology or explaining to me why fascism developed - not relevant and a rather superficial analysis of it anyway. I've explained what I found relevant and you've nitpicked it from start to finish with strangely generic replies, so I don't get where you're taking this thread anymore.
Xawlet@reddit
Urban planning is one of the most corrupted state bodies in Greece.
foxgirlmoon@reddit
The capitalist dream is a city that maximizes immediate profit. There's no space in a capitalist dream city for greenery, because that doesn't make money.
So I've no idea why you mentioned that as a positive lol
PckMan@reddit
Because the government rarely ever had enough money or willingness to acquire land through eminent domain and who owns what has always been something very difficult to determine. Especially exacerbated through ottoman times when certain people were awarded land with bery vague documents like "standing on x hill, everything you see till y tree on the east and up till the creek to the west". Documents like these were still valid even though hill names changed, trees died and creeks dried up, so a lot of land was contested.
So when the time came for urban planning the government simply twiddled their thumbs and did nothing. They had no intention of securing land for proper roads, infrastructure, parks etc so they built on whatever was left after the houses were built.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
I’d say it is because they didn’t regulate the zoning and the influx of people. They practically flooded Athens with people as the population increased by over 2 million since 1950. This meant prioritising housing over planning. Meanwhile Bulgaria had restricted access to living in big cities and an indirect ownership via housing allocation. This gave them time to plan the whole expansion with streets and parks which shape new districts even to this day. The central government had the ability to choose where, when and why people would be living depending on their needs. They literally created Dimitrovgrad out of thin air just because they needed a city there.
monkeychasedweasel@reddit
Also, Athens (and Greece) was flooded with people in the 1920s - a big population exchange happened. One can argue that with the Balkan Wars, WWI, war with Turkey, WWII, civil war, and the junta, most resources hurriedly went to figuring out where to put people rather than meticulously plan it out.
Perfect-Mind831@reddit
You should see Varna… There was a huge iconic pool place with mineral water where we learned how to swim in the winter and practiced outside in the summer. They built apartment blocks on a fucking mineral source! Everyone should die in hell for that.
GoffRockerboss@reddit
Sofia's new districts are on another level of urban hellscape. Not only no public spaces exist, nobody planned to put any schools or hospitals there.
Fearless_Function633@reddit
Because they are , for a big part , middle Eastern/ anatolian people so that's way the similarity between greek cities with cities like Beirut.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Yeah, too bad. I consider the Greek nature superior to ours but the way their cities actually look like makes them places where I wouldn't really feel good living in. I need my space.
Fearless_Function633@reddit
Many greek cities especially Athens are mental illness inducing places "designed" for rats to live. I live in Greece and i can tell you that's the truth. Whatever they ll tell you its for the most part greeks fault who live like this ,even if the come up with many excuses to say to you. As you said Greece was wonderful nature, islands , mountains, beaches and some beautiful traditional rural places. Urban places are trash.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
A lot of comments already said it but - arid and Mediterranean.
You have geographically balkan countries like Bosnia whose northern part of the country is essentially flat land and greenery. The 4 seasons happen there, with neither winter nor summer being mild.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Climate has little to do with the way Greek cities look. I know North African cities are tightly packed like that but Dubai and Doha generally have more space between the buildings and similar climates.
Also, the concrete and lack of plants make the heat island effect even worse.
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Climate has a lot to do with it man
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
What about Mareseille and its banlieus then?
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
What about Marseille? lol
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Same climate as Athens, has neighborhoods like Sofia and other ex socialist capitals.
kuhinjski@reddit
Dude i remember as a kid going on vacation to greece every year and on the way back i would watch how the grass turns from yellow to green as you pass from greece/macedonia to serbia. Even macedonia is fried up, not to mention greece.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
The Ionian islands and nearby continential areas are greener than the rest of the country.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Dubai and Doha are very recently built, not to mention completely artificial.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Camels near Skopje, North Macedonia 19th century
Aleksag@reddit
In a communist countries whole planned neighborhoods were built at a time. Those city blocks were built on new modernist principles which favor a lot of greenery and big buildings scattered across parks.
Greece didn’t have that, their street pattern is more traditional and unplanned , similar to new built neighborhoods in many Balkan countries. Interestingly in Serbia we had mix of both, even during communism, you can imagine which parts of cities are seen more favorably even today…
-kenjo-@reddit
Because it was never communist
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Neither was Mareseille but it has banlieus that looked like that when new, even the climate is similar to Athens.
-kenjo-@reddit
Western europe is different story since it was always more developed but in easern its just communist regimes city planning was pretty decent, so Greece had none of that
gorat@reddit
Not communist. So there was no centralized plan. You can see very similar in Turkey Istanbul.
Cities were built up from 1 story building to 5-6 story buildings from developers that looked to max profit. Best construction was concrete box polykatoikia. Any neighborhood that survived just happened to have its own building code. (very few areas).
Original-Hall-9832@reddit
That's because Greece was never under Socialism or Communism which builds on grand and planned scale by focusing on liveability and personal space. Under capitalism it's only profit maximizing and treating people like $. The more you build and destroy space - the more you can sell for profit.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Neither was France but Mareseille has banlieus that look similar.
Original-Hall-9832@reddit
France had grand beautification projects in the 19th century. Greece never had that. All of their cities were basically Ottoman backwater villages which saw urban "development" in the second the half of the 20th century. A period of capitalism's late stage existence when nothing else but money matters. Add on top of that the the corruption levels in Greece since basically forever and you've gotten their modern look...
Bubbly_Youth8703@reddit
I'm guessing topography played a big role.
Eastern_Weather_8748@reddit
The picture looks quite depressing, despite it being green. Not sure it’s that much better than the concrete jungle in Athens.
ThatOneDude1_1@reddit
Greece has more similarities with Turkey than any Balkan country out there tbh
Fandago_@reddit
Because of Karamanlis and the great “antiparohi”. All plot / old house owners gave their property to a civil engineer in exchange of an apartment or two for free. State never cared about parks or trees in the city
Rumbling_Butterfly1@reddit
This is the right answer
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Somewhat like what is happening to houses since the change to capitalism in Bulgaria. As a result we have some neighbourhoods called the new ghettos.
Fandago_@reddit
Answering your question “why Greek cities always sucked since Greece was a capitalist country since for ever”. That’s a good question and the reasons are complex. At least in my point of view :
1) historical reasons: Greece (as many countries around ) is an old territory with many towns (or even former villages ) having ancient design focusing accessing mostly the sea. Athens had the opportunity to put solid foundations for a modern European structure but I don’t know what happened there. Thessaloniki on the other hand was already populated and crowded I would say even since 1800. Although the city had a great opportunity to be rebuilt after the fire of 1917 , the new design focused on “nice buildings” ( i.e Aristotle square etc ) Ottomans of course never cared about parks.
2) some disasters : Massacres , fires civil wars (after 1912 ) and suburban poverty pushed the governments to focus on accommodating the incoming population to the cities from the villages . As a result ugly big blocks were built to cover this need. In 60s this was the end of any hope to have a good aesthetic in the cities.
Last Greeks were Ottomans meaning the Greek citizens have never experienced a European “renaissance”. We had our Greek renaissance around 1780-1820 but it was focusing on the identity. Therefore the aesthetic was always based on survival and efficiency (driving to non efficient cities)
No-Championship-4632@reddit
Because climate?
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
B.S.
Marseille has similar climate and has banlieues.
Double-Bowler2950@reddit
I don't know why you keep comparing with Marseille here, which is not exactly the model for a nicely planned city with lots of greenery (except in the richer banlieus, which is apparently what you are referring to).
There are very few Mediterranean cities with plenty of greenery. Perhaps Turin the most.
No-Championship-4632@reddit
You are comparing to other Balkan capitals, not Marseille. With that level of maintenance of green areas that we have in Bulgaria, if we had Athens' climate, the outcome would have been similar even in commie era residential neighbourhoods.
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
Athens is a horizontal, spread out city due to having relatively few high rises and most housing being low rise 4 storey apartment buildings or detached houses. There is simply too little land left to waste it on green spaces, sidewalks or other frivolities.
Because it's so spread out and the metro / urban railway network is pretty old and decrepit you end up with lots of people trying to commute in cars and absolutely horrible traffic jams.
Young_Owl99@reddit
Another thing that we are similar unfortunetly.
The main reason is same with the problem of Turkish capital. Both Athens and Ankara rapidly became the capital. Even though Athens have ancient importance, it didn’t have such level of importance or population in neither Romans, Byzantines or Ottomans. So when Greeks decided to make it the capital is grew too fast.
Ankara had the same and even worse fate. It didn’t have the importance that Athens had. At least Athens have tourism now.
Self-Bitter@reddit
It is the sudden influx of refugees / immigrants (ours in 1920s and after the Civil war) so the population "inflation" happened in periods where finding somewhere to stay was a much more urgent need that the "luxury" of city planning. Of course corruption and lack of any interest both from governments and people never fixed this problem.
Athens was much more charming (although still poor) small city, in the early 20th century with tons of neoclassical houses.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
It's not the 1920s. It still looked quite nice in the 1940s and 1950s. It was the 1960s-1980s where lots of pretty buildings got destroyed.
Proof:
https://i.redd.it/21b50qcki1y51.jpg
Self-Bitter@reddit
That is true but the dense building pattern, with the narrow streets and the limited green spaces started earlier. Also the grey apartment blocks appeared in the 1950's and the majority of these was constructed by the 1970's . That was a lasting result of the never-ending wars (esp in the 40s) that destroyed the countryside and left no other option than leaving for Athens or abroad (USA, Australia etc).
Young_Owl99@reddit
I would love to see Athens like that. Rapid population increase messes up everything. Wonder how Athens would be if it never lost its importance and used as capital in several empires.
Even a more prepared city like İstanbul became really ugly because of it. At least the centers are still has its charm.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
That’s because Athens turned from a town of few thousand people to a big city of millions in a very short period of time. There was a construction boom and they built without a proper plan. This rapid urban development combined with corruption didn’t allow for a spacious city to be developed. And it’s not only the green spaces…of all the places in the world I have visited, Athens probably has the worst sidewalks too.
It’s a shame because Athens’ topography had lots of potential, streams all over, hills, flat areas, sea side, mountains. Unfortunately that’s the situation right now and it’s hard to change, although I think there is definitely hope in the future.
Nevertheless, Athens also has quite big regional differences, northern, southern “suburbs” and some other areas are much greener, prettier and more spacious than what your average visitor in Athens is used to. I recommend exploring around on google earth to see the different areas.
That said, this is the bad side of Athens that we are talking about but it has many more better things to offer.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
I was hoping they will expose the river as planned but I think they did nothing.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
Never heard of such a plan to be honest. You can see still parts of the old rivers in few spots around Athens though
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/04/athens-buried-rivers-stream-favoured-by-plato-could-see-light-of-day
thanasis87kav@reddit
Because it is Southern Europe, is drier than the Balkan and East European countries in the most part. Many of its peri-urban forests are artificial pine woods, which are terrible for Mediterranean climate wildfires and the urban planning of the 70s when the construction boom happened, disregarded the need for canopy, something that starts shifting lately in major towns and cities.
Substratas@reddit
False. Eastern Europe is overall drier than Greece. Balkan is not a ”wetter” area - the Balkan peninsula differs way more in biomes, average winter temperatures & precipiation rates between east & west than it does between north & south.
Nikoschalkis1@reddit
I dunno bro Athens in general is probably the most arid area in Greece. Historically too. There are inscriptions from a Byzantine scholar who specifically wrote that he'd much prefer Constantinople's climate to Athens due to it being too dry
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Why not move your capital to Preveza?
Nikoschalkis1@reddit
Temperate rainforest ahh town.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
There is very different vegetation growing in and around Athens than most of the Balkans. Athens is a proper Mediterranean city. It’s also one of the sunniest cities in Europe and while some areas in Balkans are as “dry” as areas in Greece, Greece is noticeably warmer.
Eastern Europe seems drier than Greece because it’s very cold there during the winter and the temperatures falls below zero. I don’t see how you can compare the two, they are very different geographical areas. It’s not about if it’s wetter/drier or warmer/colder. One has continental climate, the other has coastal Mediterranean climate.
Why don’t you share an environmental zone map instead or a phytoclimatic map?
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Mareseille is similar in climate to Athens but has banlieus that looked like that when new, so it's possible.
Substantial-Peach-90@reddit
Combine the maps and you get a clear and actual picture of the area
Electronic-Ad-6191@reddit
The numbers on the second image are really not close. Im pretry sure the first one is not right too, i might be wrong. Coolmapseveryday? Is that only on instagram ? does http://worldclim.com/ even exist actually?
thanasis87kav@reddit
"In the most part", I said. Still, Athens has significantly less precipitation than any other Balkan or European capital. Since it’s home to about 30% of Greece’s population, the OP has likely seen photos of the city that prompted this question. Average Yearly Precipitation for Cities in Europe
StudentMuch1491@reddit
It’s arid and Mediterranean.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Mareseille is similar in climate to Athens but has banlieus that looked like that when new, so it's possible to be done.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Mareseille is similar in climate to Athens but has banlieus that looked like that when new, so it's possible.
apollotonkosmo@reddit
Apartment from the terrible short-sighted city planning and concrete culture, Greece has also a very dry weather.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
So does Mareseille but it has banlieus
Substratas@reddit
Which country are these pictures from?
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
All are from Sofia, Bulgaria. Except the second photo which is from Bratislava, Slovakia.
Organic_Contract_172@reddit
Knew it was former Czechoslovakia
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
I love Petrzalka more than I like the rest of Bratislava actually.
Salt_Fennel8876@reddit
The reason is one—corruption. It would have been the same in Bulgaria too, if large-scale urban planning hadn't taken place during communism. Now corruption is the same in big cities, and construction is reckless. The new neighborhoods in Sofia look like Athens and Thessaloniki. But since the base is good, the majority of the city still looks sufficiently green and spacious. But at these construction rates, it might not stay that way forever.
ThePurpleKing159@reddit
Split, Croatia is becoming a favela
EternalPrince54@reddit
what do you mean? there are neighbourhoods like that just not in the city centre lol
CapitalScarcity5573@reddit
Because water is fuking expensive over there and the climate tends to be rather dry, same as soil
Zinc-Roof_22@reddit
Residential districts... were? Centre of Athens? That's closer to NY, really. Try the suburbs.
PckMan@reddit
There are tons of green spaces. Not in the city centers though.
nobody1568@reddit
Serres literally has 40+ degrees summers. And apartment buildings aren't really that packed. But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with hot summers?
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Some people claim Greek cities have the flats so close together because it's very hot so wide open spaces with dry grass wouldn't be appropriate. I disagree. There are countries just as dry and hot with wide spaces between the flats and they're doing just fine.
nobody1568@reddit
I still don't understand but, regardless, who are these people?
lara2412@reddit
А friend of a friend
Stromovik@reddit
Rest of Balkans are former second world. Soo centralized planning with trees as sound absorbers and dust absorbers. Greece is a first world
Archaeopteryx111@reddit
Greece, first world compared to what? 😆
Stromovik@reddit
To Romania ! So much free copper ! XD
Seriously first world was NATO , second world was Warsaw pact , third world neutral. Switzerland technically third world
Archaeopteryx111@reddit
OK, maybe fifty years ago, but that designation isn’t useful anymore. Turkey is part of the OECD and Romania and Bulgaria aren’t, even tho they’re richer than turkey now.
Early-Show2886@reddit
yes romania is interesting.
Camels in Dobrogea, Romania, end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
More like third world. Athens looks like some North African city.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Topolovgrad, Bulgaria , once camels
Early-Show2886@reddit
Amfissa, Greece 19th century camels there...
markohf12@reddit
Climate also makes a big difference. Gevgelija is very gray compared to Skopje even tho the urban planning is the same.
TiredOperator420@reddit
I think it's the same as old neighbourhoods in Poland, they were designed by commies for people.
Happy-Hour88@reddit (OP)
Yes, those green neighbourhoods with good transport links and infrastructure are literally the only good thing about Communism.
Excellent_Jeweler_43@reddit
Tbf I have to hand it to commies for one thing that those commie blocks were insanely practical and well designed infrastructure-wise