CFI might be taking advantage of me
Posted by Jaded-Resource5585@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 59 comments
I travel a lot for my job (like twice a month), and I’m lucky enough that the flight school I got my ratings at lets me take one of their planes for these trips to time build. The only thing is I can’t take it overnight because they need it the next day for instruction. One of the instructors at this school has offered to go with me, and I thought he just wanted to build time, because he said he won’t be charging me an instructor fee.
He recently told me that I should have been logging every trip we have done as dual time received so that he could log it as well. This would be around 30 hours at this point. For context, I am an instrument rated private pilot who took a break to time build and is now working on commercial at my school, so I am acting PIC during these trips, and he will often sit in the passenger seat and take a nap while I fly to the destination.
I don’t see why I should have to log dual for a cross country just because an instructor was there, especially if he wasn’t teaching me anything or sometimes even awake for the trip. But he is starting to get pushy about it, demanding to see my logbook and has apparently logged every leg I have flown as dual given, but I don’t have these as dual entries or a signature in my logbook.
I feel like he is taking advantage of me to lie about his hours, and I don’t want to be complicit in that. I also hope to go to the airlines one day, and I feel like an excessive amount of dual cross country after earning my ratings will look suspicious and hurt my chances, but I want to know how other people see the situation. Any advice is appreciated.
nyplanez@reddit
I’m confused, do you need the instructor to fly with you to bring the plane back because you’re staying overnight?
It feels it’s pretty easy to make some compromise happen here. Like “hey I don’t mind logging dual but you can’t be asleep and at least have me shoot an approach under the hood or something. At least instruct me a little bit. “
I don’t think having “excessive dual cross country time” will hurt your chances. If anyone asks about it you could just say that was the schools policy. Really doubt anyone will care.
At the end of the day if you don’t want to log dual you should just not bring an instructor with you. I think it’s good to get a lot of solo time. I did most of my hour building for my commercial license solo, and I would not have wanted to do it with an instructor.
NationalLaw478@reddit
Honestly I think dual XC looks better than flying around solo burning holes in the sky.
nyplanez@reddit
I built a lot of solo xc and it made me much more confident. Especially the night solo xc time. I feel like flying with a CFI you always have someone next to you who can bail you out if you are making a mistake.
NationalLaw478@reddit
I don’t disagree with you, but I know airlines don’t like timebuilding at all.
I did a lot of IFR timebuilding after I hit a plateau with CFI and I learned a ton.
nyplanez@reddit
I think they don’t like time building when it’s in lieu of getting a job. Like people that buy an airplane and fly around for hundreds of hours instead of working as a CFI or another job. The only time building I did was to get to the 250 mark to get my commercial.
NationalLaw478@reddit
Oh yes, that’s what I was talking about. Getting hours for certs or ratings is fine. There’s a regional that is currently requiring 60% of hours be dual given.
NotYourAverageJoe99@reddit
Which regional?
nolaflygirl@reddit
Exactly. I did a ton of interesting, challenging solo time after PPL & while working on CPL. Makes you a much better pilot.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
Dual given or dual received? I think dual xc received would look weaker than single pilot xc. Single pilot you are making the decisions not acting on what the CFI says.
BreadfruitOdd9974@reddit
Look, others have summarized more or less well enough the consensus about the instructor, his motivations, and the seemingly lack of legality of what he is doing.
What I can't understand is what exactly you think the situation is? why do you think the cfi offered to go with you exactly? I think rather than worrying about 'solo xc' or 'dual xc' any hiring airline will be more concerned with your general judgment and awareness, and given that this is such an obvious case and you seem totally oblivious to what's going on, i reckon this doesnt reflect well on you.
Mazer1415@reddit
This used to be very common back in the day. I’ve seen an instructor in the back seat, a safety pilot and a person under the hood all logging time. Splitting legal loopholes. But at least everyone was splitting the cost.
Smacked_ducky@reddit
I think a lot of people are missing the point. At my flight school, commercial students who need to build time rent the aircraft, and if an instructor wants to come along, they can. The student logs the time, XC, and dual received, while the instructor logs time and dual given. The student isn’t charged for the instructor, so it’s beneficial for both, and there’s nothing in the regs that prohibits it.
Smacked_ducky@reddit
If he’s charging you, then I understand the backlash you don’t need to be paying for him. But there’s nothing wrong with getting extra dual received. I was never questioned about it in any interview or logbook audit. No airline or company is going to scrutinize you for having a bit more dual, or care whether your time-building was solo or with an instructor for a commercial cert.
Smacked_ducky@reddit
If he’s charging you then I can understand the backlash as you don’t need to pay for him, nothing wrong with more dual received. I was never questioned about it on any interview or logbook audit. No airline or company is gonna eyeball you for having a little more dual received or care that you went solo or not on your time builds to get a commercial cert
makgross@reddit
He IS accepting additional liability by being there, even if he’s asleep. There is precedent for naming instructors as PIC in an accident, and ding them for not interceding, even when asleep in the back seat.
And it’s not costing you anything.
EezyBake@reddit
Had a similar situation where a school I was interviewing for asked me to help out and “chaperone” a ppl on a few cross country flights. They were time building in a new plane and didn’t have much solo time. School wanted me to ensure they didn’t ding the plane or make any mistakes like busting an airspace. I was down for it, but they didn’t let me log it since I’m acting as a “passenger.” I was pretty much acting as CFI without logging any dual or PIC.
I wonder what would have happened had something gone awry, since I’m not technically PIC but still a CFI in the plane.
nolaflygirl@reddit
I think they would've gone after you as the most senior-rated pilot.
KCPilot17@reddit
Sources? Genuinely curious.
HappiestAnt122@reddit
I was told almost exactly this story in my CFI ground school (CFI asleep in the backseat, ppl friend busts a bravo, FAA comes after CFI as the highest rated person on the airplane, or something like that) and I haven’t been able to verify it. There is obviously plenty of precedent for blaming the CFI when the student messes up and instruction is actively being given. I don’t think thats controversial. But I cannot find a single documented instance of a CFI in the backseat, much less asleep, who was held responsible when they had no flying duties. This guy though would still be opening himself up to that if he is sitting there presumably logging dual given and PIC.
makgross@reddit
The backseat story seems to come from an AOPA article in the 90s.
However, here is an example where a flight instructor giving instruction was held as PIC even though the student was qualified to do so. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001212X19735&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA
This then reduces to the question, what qualifies as giving instruction?
bhalter80@reddit
I doubt this guy realizes that
FridayMcNight@reddit
True, but if the CFI in question understood this and cared about it, he could have had the 2 minute conversation with OP before the flight to say something like: "Hey man, I incur some liability for being an instructor in the right seat even when you're doing all the work. Do you mind if we log this as dual instruction to compensate me for the small risk?"
It's also possible that the CFI thinks he had that conversation and OP doesn't. Sometimes communication is hard.
nolaflygirl@reddit
I agree w/ you. You didn't have an agreement -- in writing or otherwise-- w/ this CFI for him to tag along & log YOUR PIC time! He isn't even teaching you during these trips, so he can't log it. He's a pax!
Of course he said he's not charging you, bc he can't...it's not a lesson! The school told you, you can use the plane, so tell him you're not comfortable w/ him logging dual bc that's not true, & that it's best for you just go by yourself.
Also, what right does he have to see your logbook if he's not your personal CFI. Or is he? In any case, these are YOUR PIC hrs. Don't take him along anymore. Don't even tell him when you're going. And arrive earlier than usual so you takeoff before he even knows it. What can he do to you? If the owner of the school said you can take the plane, can he mess that up for you?
VileInventor@reddit
He’s loop holing for hours, you both get to log it if you put dual received. Just pretty unethical.
bhalter80@reddit
And yet legal which is the key part
VileInventor@reddit
Yeah there’s a certain airline who didn’t want more than 25% of their cadets hours to be leisure flying. The way a lot of people got around that was going up with a friend or other CFI and just logging dual in whatever. For example G1000 training.
bhalter80@reddit
"Baron XC familiarization" ... just sayin
Ok_Big_3300@reddit
Twice a month isnt a lot for traveling
VipKyle@reddit
Ask him to pay half, seems fair.
Downtown-Bite5598@reddit
He IS taking advantage of you. He want's the "dual-given" for his time, because as an instructor he also gets PIC time, and he can't log "SIC" in a plane that is single-pilot certified (unless operating under an OpSpec that requires a two-pilot crew of course). So if he isn't instructing, he'd only be a safety pilot....not really a type of hours that any 135 or 121 operation cares about.
fatespawn@reddit
It’s really no big deal. Tell him no thanks. Unless the FAR’s required him to be there, it’s not dual unless you both agree it’s dual. Even if the flight school said “you have to have an instructor on board” that’s not necessarily dual. The FAA doesn’t care. That’s something you agree on BEFORE you take off. And it IS a big deal. You should have a definitive understanding on who is the pilot in command.
Redfish680@reddit
So… he’s just a passenger.
olek2012@reddit
Logging dual while the CFI is napping is wild. At that point they are only a passenger
jjamesr539@reddit
Why did you think he was offering to go with you for free? I’m not saying he should be getting pushy or that it’s appropriate, or that it wasn’t on him to communicate what he actually wanted, but it’s also not exactly shocking.
Flat-Row7968@reddit
Yeah idk I feel like people are over reacting a bit why else would the dude want to go, it’s not like he’s asking for money or anything lol. He should have the told this dude before him 100%, but it also doesn’t effect him either. Having a lot of dual received means nothing…
redditburner_5000@reddit
Have a chat with him. He hasn't been signing your book, so he knows it's not dual. He can't even pretend to be surprised.
I think he's milking you for time.
Levelset with him that it's not dual, or ask for his pro-rata share from here on out if he wants it logged and make him send you what he plans to teach before you meet him at the airport.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
He is not milking you for time, he is flat out lying about his time and riding with you so he can feel better about it, even though legally that would not make any difference. If he is not signing your logbook, he is not giving you instruction.
Just stop inviting him, and don’t let him get ahold of your logbook or he is likely to start signing it without your permission.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
This fucking industry..... Somebody is always trying to play the system.
We had a new copilot in a 135 with a PPD opspec that told one of his classmates he was logging his flights as pic/dual given because he was an MEI.
Our Chief Pilot called him in and asked for the new guy's log book so he could sign the flights off per the fare/opspec. Apparently the dudes face turned white and he stammered something about having to bring it in later because it was electronic.
If you are gonna do shit like that, just keep your mouth shut. But, I think the people that do that shit cannot do that simple thing.
OP: I would tell the guy you aren't gonna have him sign your logbook, but he cannot whatever he pleases in his own. That'll make him sweat a bit. And no more flights with him.
ChipmunkWorth9901@reddit
Happened to me too, some of these CFIs see pre-commercial students as free Hobbs because of all of the time building in between ratings,
Guy once billed me for 7 hours of instruction after sitting in my right seat doing nothing all day while I took him on a free vaca to PNS
A lot of loser CFIs out there that will pretend to be your friend for Hobbs
I got into a flight club and he hit me up and told me to let him know if I ever need a right seater, I told him I only do time splitting these days because I’m running out of funds,
Never heard from him again 😂
AtrophiedTraining@reddit
I see these CFIs just being slimy out there and it shocks me.
Meanwhile I give my students 1.5 hour of ground teaching them all the things they are going to face in the flight for the day and debriefing everything they didn't understand all to make their cockpit time as low as possible, texting them back right away when they have questions etc - and they are upset I charged 0.5 of ground.
lurking-constantly@reddit
If this individual was not providing you with instruction, and you hadn’t agreed that the flights would be instructional fights beforehand, it seems unethical for you to then be pressured to log instructional time. More importantly- your logbook is your logbook aside from instruction required for a rating or flights required to demonstrate currency you can choose to log as much as little as you want. The reality too, is that if this individual ends up going to the airline and has a bunch of dual given in their logbook, no one’s going to call you to verify whether you also logged the time as dual received if they were to be investigated it. It’s possible someone could reach out to you, but at that point, they’re the one who’s going to be getting in trouble and not you.
bhalter80@reddit
On top of this they didn't even minimally comply with 61.51 which requires that THEY sign your logbook and describe the training you've received in the flight. If they were serious about logging it as dual they should have been acting like an instructor all along.
Right now all they're doing is mooching off of you for free flight time so unless you enjoy their company or want to help tell them that you want to go solo
CluelessPilot1971@reddit
Maybe have the instructor wear a hood, OP will act as PIC, taxi and take off/land, and then the instructor will do all the flying. This way OP can sit back, relax and then log all the hours (while the instructor can also log the actual flying time without bugging OP about dual received).
bhalter80@reddit
I mean there's no real difference between what the instructor is doing and them pencil whipping their logbook. Just save everyone a bunch of hassle and hand them a sharp pen
CluelessPilot1971@reddit
You're being very inconsistent here. One sentence you're talking about a pencil, then you're talking about a pen. Make up your mind, man!
bhalter80@reddit
Pen whipping just leaves a lot of room for confusion
bobnuthead@reddit
Aside from not providing instruction, he’s required to sign your logbook for the dual given. He either sees and signs your logbook after each flight, or he knows it technically isn’t properly accounted for. There is not a legal scenario for him where he logs dual given and isn’t signing your book too.
WizKhalizta@reddit
Grift. Tell him get lost.
G25777K@reddit
Your paying for it, he's not. Since your PIC you get to log the PIC hours. He gets zero time logged. Screw the dual time he never made it clear and why would you want him there to log dual time when you rented the aircraft out specifically to log PIC time.
bikeahh@reddit
You are not “acting PIC”, you ARE the PIC unless you’ve discussed the arrangement and he is instructing.
If he’s just snoozing but logging the dual/instruction given, why bother to actually go? For all the experience he’s acquiring, he may as well just put it in his logbook and sit at home watching Netflix.
Unhappy_Sprinkles121@reddit
Good topic to bring up to a chief pilot
HappiestAnt122@reddit
I agree how pushy they are being is a little weird, though, that said, you do say yourself that you assumed from the beginning they wanted to time build. For that to work they have to be instructing you which basically means you need to be logging dual received. One of the privileges of a CFI certificate if the ability to log PIC when the other pilot is the sole manipulator of the flight controls (61.51.e.3). I’m not really sure you logging it is technically a requirement, that regulation just says flight instructors can log PIC time when instructing provided the CFI is rated in the plane, but some AC or other documentation may elaborate on that.
Now especially with him not being very, let’s say present, in the flight, I can understand if you’d be uncomfortable logging it. If you are rated in the plane and current then there is no requirement for you to log it at all, let alone as dual received, but just know that’s why he wants you to log it. There isn’t any problem with you having more dual received than you need, so no harm in doing it to help him out. That said, it is strange though that he wants you to log it but hasn’t asked about signing you logbook for that time at all, that would be a requirement for you to log the dual received so unless you didn’t mention it but he has asked then he’s missing something there. All around a weird situation, I can definitely see why you want to stay away from it.
Brotein40@reddit
He shouldn’t have been getting hours if you’re just flying yourself around with no need for a safety pilot.
FridayMcNight@reddit
He's kinda full of shit; logging as dual probably benefits him, and might benefit you if any of those flights satisfy your commercial instructional aeronautic experience requirements in 61.129 (3).
But you're not obligated to log dual just because the dude napping in the right holds a CFI certificate (and to state the obvious, if you didn't know it was dual received, it wasn't).
Ted_Striker02@reddit
He can’t make you log dual given. If he wants to log dual received that’s on him. I don’t believe that a dual given entry needs to be accomplished with a dual received entry… could be wrong on that. My suggestion is to not let him tag along with you anymore. Is there any benefit for you to have him ride along?
WhiteoutDota@reddit
The dual given entry is the required one, nobody requires instructors to log dual received. 14 CFR 61.189(a)
RaiseTheDed@reddit
He just wants the hours to meet ATP minimums. He can log whatever he wants, but if you're PIC, and he's just a passenger, you sign for the aircraft, and he doesn't teach you anything, you don't have to let him see your logbook.
Imo, if he had asked before he started coming with you and you both came to an agreement beforehand, ok. But now that he's being pushy and a douche after the fact, it's unprofessional.
cpt_ppppp@reddit
It it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
I'd trust your gut on this one of I were you
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I travel a lot for my job (like twice a month), and I’m lucky enough that the flight school I got my ratings at lets me take one of their planes for these trips to time build. The only thing is I can’t take it overnight because they need it the next day for instruction. One of the instructors at this school has offered to go with me, and I thought he just wanted to build time, because he said he won’t be charging me an instructor fee.
He recently told me that I should have been logging every trip we have done as dual time received so that he could log it as well. This would be around 30 hours at this point. For context, I am an instrument rated private pilot who took a break to time build and is now working on commercial at my school, so I am acting PIC during these trips, and he will often sit in the passenger seat and take a nap while I fly to the destination.
I don’t see why I should have to log dual for a cross country just because an instructor was there, especially if he wasn’t teaching me anything or sometimes even awake for the trip. But he is starting to get pushy about it, demanding to see my logbook and has apparently logged every leg I have flown as dual given, but I don’t have these as dual entries or a signature in my logbook.
I feel like he is taking advantage of me to lie about his hours, and I don’t want to be complicit in that. I also hope to go to the airlines one day, and I feel like an excessive amount of dual cross country after earning my ratings will look suspicious and hurt my chances, but I want to know how other people see the situation. Any advice is appreciated.
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.