Why is it taboo to discuss your wages at work?
Posted by thunderfart_99@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 232 comments
At my workplace we have been advised by our bosses not to discuss our wages at all, and anybody caught doing so would be subject to a disciplinary. Yet I found out recently that at a rival firm, the salaries are significantly larger than at ours. I nearly flipped a lid when I found this out - especially staying at my current company where my salary has not really gone up with the cost of living and inflation. I'm worse off financially than I was five years ago despite earning a higher salary on paper, which is why I'm looking at new jobs.
I just don't get why it is generally considered taboo - especially when people have mortgages, bills and food to survive. At the end of the day most companies do not give a fuck about you one bit, as long as you make them money.
Typical-Newspaper409@reddit
It's taboo because it allows the company to keep screwing some of you over.
The disciplinary threat is somewhat empty. They can tell you not to discuss it on company time, but they can't ban you from talking about it when you're off the clock.
Historical_Owl_1635@reddit
Tbf it can sometimes be in the employees best interest too, especially if you’re the one earning significantly more than your peers.
MazrimReddit@reddit
I often know I am paid more than people at the same level because I negotiate hard and am in an industry where you have room to with specialised skills.
I wouldn't mind a law saying everyone has to know for example, but i'm not going to go out of my way to share that with colleagues
Historical_Owl_1635@reddit
I’ve seen it happen before when people find out, you usually see more resentment and scrutiny towards the person on the higher salary than towards the company.
MazrimReddit@reddit
yeah, mostly because it's rarely who is the top performer who gets the most it's who is willing to keep asking for raises
JohnsGimpyHand@reddit
So the person with the most agency
clicketybooboo@reddit
why not ? fear of resentment ? what if it helped them out ?
Historical_Owl_1635@reddit
In an ideal world sure.
In the real world salaries are competitive, both internally and externally.
Ivashkin@reddit
Indeed, it's either going to be a discussion which makes you feel bad because you find out you earn less, or a discussion which makes you feel bad because you earn more.
Forsaken-Original-28@reddit
They can't tell you not to discuss it on company time either
CredibleCranberry@reddit
Not true. They can tell you, it would only be illegal if they took action against an individual who was discussing salary to discover discrimination against a protected characteristic as per the equality act.
Discussing it in general isn't legally protected.
TheTjalian@reddit
I was discussing it with someone of a differing gender/race/disability/age bracket. Job done.
CredibleCranberry@reddit
It would have to be for the purpose of discovering discrimination. That alone wouldn't be enough.
turntupytgirl@reddit
it absolutely would what other kind of evidence are you expecting? a brain scan?
MD564@reddit
It's in everyone's interest to discuss wages especially minorities and women.
NibblyPig@reddit
Not everyone's interest.
Workplaces are full of people that are petty and vindictive.
People are quick to decide that others aren't worth what they're being paid, or that they feel they 'deserve' more.
By all means people should be free to discuss it if they want. But it's not in the interest of high achievers. People often feel annoyed and disgruntled when they find out someone else earns more than they do, even across roles and experience bands. "I'm on 30k, just found out steve is on 40k!!! He doesn't deserve that just for having a 'senior' title.
Personally, I negotiate my pay quite hard and I often use a lot of leverage to get it, I keep it to myself or close friends, everyone else doesn't need to know because I don't want them giving me evils.
ibiacmbyww@reddit
Found the manager 🙄
NibblyPig@reddit
Nah, but I am well paid and I've seen people be very jealous of that fact when they found out.
ibiacmbyww@reddit
Would it not be a better world if pay were discussed openly, then, so your employer can't pull a fast one on the people being paid less? No more evils, that way.
NibblyPig@reddit
No, your employer isn't your mum and dad. The only person that should be responsible for how much you earn is you. Fire up totaljobs and find what's out there at your experience level. If it's more than what you're earning now, make a case to earn more with your employer. If they refuse, then apply for a new job.
And no, when people find out they sometimes become resentful. They shouldn't be legally prevented but it's not in everyone's interest to tell people what you earn.
I mean even outside the workplace, we don't always share what we earn, because other people can feel jealous of us or form judgemental opinions.
ibiacmbyww@reddit
You, sir, are an entitled prick with no idea how the world works.
JohnsGimpyHand@reddit
You live in a very sheltered world if openly discussing what you earn doesn’t have some negative consequences. It’s legal and people should push for what they deserve but some people absolutely do not take other people’s fortune well.
Mundo7@reddit
haha entitled prick, yet doing their best to earn what they can. it’s not his fault that others aren’t doing the same
NibblyPig@reddit
That's the exact mentality I describe. Amazing.
emdave@reddit
Surely it depends on the scenario? E.g. if you're in a 9-5 office / retail / factory job etc., then knowing the salary ranges for similar roles is useful to keep employers (in so far as it's not an oxymoron...) honest - particularly with the shafting of disadvantaged groups, or exploiting long-timers vs new hires (either way) etc. But if you're a senior professional, and you're more directly personally responsible for negotiating a specific salary level that reflects your particular skills / experience etc., or if you're self-employed etc., then you may wish to keep salary info to yourself?
NibblyPig@reddit
Ultimately it's up to you if you want to share it or not, based on if it'd be useful.
If you were a new hire and you suspected from the moaning of others that you were being paid more despite their experience you might keep that to yourself.
There's always a problem that if you're desperate to fill a role during a shortage that you may need to offer more money.
But if say a major retailer goes bust and suddenly there's a glut of extra unemployed shop floor workers, people would be up in arms if they lowered people's salary in line with the market rate going down...
tom-mart@reddit
What salary I negotiated with my employer is only between me and my employer. I don't care what others are earning, it's their agreement and has nothing to do with me.
Felon88@reddit
Cause they want control and leverage.
LHG_93@reddit
Under Section 77 of the Equality Act 2010, employers cannot enforce "pay secrecy" clauses to stop you from discussing your salary for the purpose of identifying discrimination. If you are facing disciplinary action, it is highly recommended to speak with ACAS (https://www.acas.org.uk) or a union representative. They provide free and impartial advice on UK employment law.
Mysterious_Use4478@reddit
I’m surprised to see you’re the only person in the thread to point out that it’s illegal!
Whatiii@reddit
Only if its for the purpose of identifying discrimination.
So if you have one female colleague in a similar position you are now collecting data to see if there is discrimination. The same if there is one colleague who meets any criteria that could cause discrimination.
postbox134@reddit
Hey mate, I'm paid this how much are you paid? Oh cool. I just wanted to check if they were discriminating against Steves.
PJP2810@reddit
Being named Steve isn't a Protected Characteristic
postbox134@reddit
Ok - I was checking about discrimination of people aged 32-33, male, married
glasgowgeg@reddit
This only applies if the discussion is for the purpose of identifying a pay discrepancy that would be illegal under the equality act.
Obviously difficult to prove, but not as simple and clear cut as you suggest.
GastricallyStretched@reddit
Does that mean employees should preface every conversation about their pay with something like this?
glasgowgeg@reddit
It means if two people who don't differ in any Equality Act categories are discussing pay, it'll be more difficult to claim it's for the purposes of identifying a discrepancy.
PsycommuSystem@reddit
I know you're just stating the facts, so this is not a go at you at all. But for example if both me and my colleague are male white, not religious, don't identify as a protected sexuality etc that is a protected characteristic - then employers are entitled to just ban me from sharing what I make so my colleague can check they're not being exploited for less pay? It feels wrong.
RobertTheSpruce@reddit
You're bisexual and want to check that your wage is not inferior to your heterosexual colleague. It would be illegal for them to stop you.
ceeearan@reddit
Remember, all sexualities are protected, all races etc, even if the focus of most cases where the act is referenced are the traditionally marginalised ones.
OMGItsCheezWTF@reddit
The wording explicitly says "having or not having" a protected characteristic. But even then, everyone has a race. You can't compare without a baseline.
Dependent-Panic-9457@reddit
Superb point. I was talking to my white, middle class, rugby club pals from uni about pay in order to establish a baseline - prior to comparing with Sandra’s take home
OMGItsCheezWTF@reddit
The point is that it makes it hard to demonstrate your disclosure wasn't a protected pay disclosure. Which means an expensive tribunal for employers looking to prevent discussion of pay (an employer will be forced to spend thousands before a tribunal even happens)
Dependent-Panic-9457@reddit
I get it
Dependent-Panic-9457@reddit
Surely one of you can temporarily believe in god, for discussion purposes
LHG_93@reddit
They can’t outright ban it, and it would open up a whole can of worms if they tried. See it all before. Generally doesn’t go well for the employer.
glasgowgeg@reddit
It means it's more difficult for you to prove the discussion was related to a protected characteristic.
PsycommuSystem@reddit
I just don't think it should need to be related to a protected characteristic at all, that's all. Seems like a strange distinction/place to draw the line.
glasgowgeg@reddit
Entirely reasonable, but the fact is that it legally is.
LowarnFox@reddit
To identify discrimination you absolutely need to discuss pay with others in your category because otherwise how do you know if there's a pattern across eg all female staff, or if it's just something that's specific to you that isn't discrimination?
Equally discussing pay with others of your class can be important in identifying indirect discrimination eg it's well known that some groups are way more likely to negotiate pay than others. If my female colleague tells me they negotiated their pay aggressively and got a higher salary than me for the same work that could still be evidence of indirect discrimination.
I can't possibly know what I'd find out before discussing pay so in practice as long as I can show I suspect discrimination for some reason I can discuss pay with whoever I like.
TheAdminsAreNazis@reddit
Hidden disabilities and various invisible protected characteristics mean that employers who try to discipline employees for this are pretty dumb. The chance of that blowing up in their face is massive and any manager stupid enough to risk being sued over discrimination shouldn't be a manager.
Pigflap_Batterbox@reddit
Which would be hilarious as it literally screams that they are paying people differently due to the equality act!
LHG_93@reddit
Smart cookie this one!
LHG_93@reddit
Obviously op is worried about discrimination
glasgowgeg@reddit
No they're not, they're concerned a competitor pays more.
Tao626@reddit
Then their employer should get competitive.
glasgowgeg@reddit
Sure, but that's irrelevant to the Equality Act and legislation regarding pay discussion.
Historical_Cobbler@reddit
It should also be remembered that people aren’t obliged to tell the truth of the wages and most people lie to simply not be the worst performer and to berate others.
I have in my time a fair few complaining about another persons pay when they’ve been told wrong. I’m not allowed to share others pay details so I have to let them believe a lie.
Even had one guy quit over “pay”, he actually earned more than the other person.
WitShortage@reddit
You've perfectly described why managers don't want you discussing salaries.
Of course, they can't stop you, and they cannot discipline you for doing it.
DarkLordTofer@reddit
You’ve answered the question here. They pay you less than another firm. They don’t want you discussing wages because they don’t want you finding out that the new hire is getting paid more than you because they had to pay the market rate to hire and you’re all paid below the market rate. Collective bargaining and an open pay structure with roles given a defined job description, list of duties, and pay scale is the fairest way to go.
Flashy-Cucumber-3794@reddit
People get jealous when pay is private and they discover you're on more than them for the same role.
I do niche work for £1000/day and I'm sure it upsets some of the office staff at the company I do bits of work for 😅
Daveger4@reddit
I find it’s best not to know. If you do your job and are happy with what you are getting paid then why would you want to know what others are getting.
It’s will only annoy you if you are not on the highest and lead to a bad work life
NoFewSatan@reddit
Great. So completely fine and fair for you if someone new comes in who does exactly the same work as you but gets £15,000 extra a year?
Daveger4@reddit
To be honest I do what I consider a fairly normal job, it’s not high enough paid to assume someone would get 15k more than me. There may be a difference of 1-2k between people doing my job. I don’t need to know if I’m the highest paid or not. I would guess at least 75% off uk workers are in the same situation wages wise
I know that I get paid what I consider a fair amount to do my job (which I enjoy). If we discussed wages and I found out I was on less then that would make me want to leave if I don’t get the same. Why would I want to do that? I’m happy with my work life and wages
NoFewSatan@reddit
This is how we end up with the gender pay gap.
Daveger4@reddit
No it’s not, look at the average wage for your job in your area. If you are around that in wages then accept a job that pays what you are happy with.
NoFewSatan@reddit
Yeah, this is literally how we end up with wage disparity
Daveger4@reddit
Only if you work on the assumption everyone does exactly the same work within set roles, in my experience this is rarely the case. On that basis there should be difference in wages.
You can look up the average wage in your area for your job. If you are happy you are within that bracket then I don’t see why you would want to know what others are earning
DevilsAdvocate1662@reddit
Try working for the NHS, the NHS pay bands are easy to find all over the internet
Obvious-Water569@reddit
Not only is taking disciplinary action for discussing pay illegal, threatening disciplinary action for discussing pay is potentially illegal.
Do you have this in writing? If you do, your boss is playing a dangerous little game.
random_banana_bloke@reddit
I have discussed pay with my co workers, we are roughly on the same salaries and the company as far as i can see is pretty fair and a good payer. Many places I have worked at that discourage it but I feel people should be paid as accordance to thier skillset and it annoys me if thats not done.
RUJOKING2020@reddit
I used to work for Starling Bank, and we were initially told that we shouldn't be discussing our wages amongst the team. When we all got to know each other better, we started discussing our pay and found out that for the exact same role and responsibilities, there was an 8k pay gap between the highest and lowest. As a team, we kicked off and refused to do anything that we deemed difficult. Fast forward a month, and everyone got a pay rise so we were all on the same amount as thr highest paid.
The only people this doesn't benefit are the company. I am all for discussing wages.
NibblyPig@reddit
Unless the company decides to adjust your pay so you're all earning the middle of the range.
Then the guy who negotiated more because he demonstrated how he has a lot of experience in technologies and strategies the company is moving into is being paid the same as the guy that has no idea but has been at the company 15 years and got grandfathered into the same job title.
He then is irritated and stops working hard for a while until he's able to leave the company.
Kyle_2099@reddit
That's... not how anything works. My pay is in my contract. If they went and tried to pay me less, and I didn't agree to it, they couldn't.
NibblyPig@reddit
If you're salaried, they can't pay you less, but they can not pay you more.
They can say no raise for you, 3% raise for people in the middle, 10% raise for people at the bottom, now you all earn the same.
Or they could make your role redundant but that's more unlikely and a bit of a nuclear option.
Kyle_2099@reddit
I'm not going to complain if they raise everyone they're underpaying up to what I'm contracted.
NibblyPig@reddit
You wouldn't be happy if you got no raise and felt you were the hardest worker though, while the people you considered to be poorer performers or less experienced got bumped to your salary.
It makes people resentful or feel under appreciated.
Kyle_2099@reddit
You probably shouldn't go around telling people you don't know what they'll feel in a situation. Not only are you wrong, but it's rude.
fazeUPfromTHEgraveUP@reddit
I never understood it until I started earning above a certain amount. Our company recently posted a list of all job titles and the salary range attached to them, I have a unique title which outed me as being in the top 25% of earners at the company. Im the highest paid non manager by a fair bit, there were a lot of unhappy people. What they don’t realise is my contribution is critical to the business and its future. They on the other hand could leave, never comeback and nobody would notice. It must of been a headache for senior management to deal with.
rictay44@reddit
Other people might be making more money than you for doing less work or lower quality work than you. How would you feel then?
SmugDruggler95@reddit
I've rarely worked a job where it wasnt obvious that someone was doing less than work for more money that me.
That doesnt matter.
I worry about if im being paid well for my time.
scuderia91@reddit
Feel like I’m being taken advantage of and do something about it. The alternative is live in ignorance of the fact your employer is exploiting you.
NibblyPig@reddit
Often the people that feel the most annoyed are those passed over for better opportunities because they have a tragic work ethic and are not high achievers, they would certainly feel taken advantage of but their ability to anything about it is non-existent, so they just resort to sulking and being passive-aggressive. Best to keep quiet in my experience.
scuderia91@reddit
So we should all weaken our bargaining because some lazy twats are going to get depressed that their laziness is getting them nowhere.
We’ve been very open at our workplace about our salaries and it’s led to several people either successfully pushing for pay rises or leaving for better money. People who’d been sat on those poor salaries for years under the misapprehension that they were earning the same as everyone else doing similar work.
I guess for some ignorance is bliss. But for me I want to know if I’m earning less than my colleagues. And if I was because I was under achieving the that puts the ball back in my court to work towards improving that or to accept the lesser expectations and the lower pay that comes with them.
Wind-and-Waystones@reddit
There's also the side of the coin where you aren't aware of how much a coworker does or additional responsibilities they have and perceive yourself to be worth more than them, and become aggrieved when you find out you aren't. I've definitely seen that one happen a few times.
Coming from the management side, my advice has always been "You're free to discuss salaries but best in mind when discussing them that you don't have all of the information that is used when deciding salaries. Speak to your line manager, but to have a productive conversation don't start with why is X on more than me, ask why am I on less than X"
While the question might sound the exact same you're asking them to justify your pay and not to justify somebody else's, this lets you segue into the conversation of how you can be earning more.
queefybean@reddit
Yep - I’ve just found out they’ve hired someone in my team with next to no experience as a trainee and he’s paid the same as me ( a woman ) with 5 years transferable experience, 2 years in the field and much more. But I’m fucked, cos I can’t admit I know!
KrytenLister@reddit
Of course you can. Why not?
queefybean@reddit
Well, we’ve been told not to discuss wages so I don’t want to get in trouble.
Alastair097@reddit
Just ask for more money ffs
queefybean@reddit
Amazing, thanks champ
Alastair097@reddit
I'm serious. I've done it a few times now with success each time
someguyhaunter@reddit
And sometimes asking for more money can get you permenantly barred from progressing in that company, I've seen as much in my work... And yes they can do that, as long as OP can't prove it's done due to the wage request then there's nothing which can be done. And before you say they need to switch jobs, do you know if it's easy or hard to get a job in their chosen area or subject?
You can't just tell them to do it when you don't know their situation (which seems at least a little dicey as they've told employees not to discuss wages), based on your very anecdotal experience. By giving crappy advice you run the risk of hurting someone else's future.
OP needs to weigh up the risks in their own work environment and consider if it's worth it or not.
peppermint_aero@reddit
Give ACAS a ring. You may have legal protection for discussing wages if you think there's sex discrimination at play.
KrytenLister@reddit
They can’t prevent you from discussing salary. It’s your legal right.
I get where you’re coming from, it can feel intimidating or uncomfortable, but nobody else is going to fight your corner for you in these situations. You need to be brave and back yourself.
One thing I would say is don’t automatically assume malice or sexism on their part when you start the conversation. You risk starting off on the wrong foot.
If you’ve been there a long time, the market rate for the position might’ve changed significantly, and that’s just what it costs to hire someone in that role now.
That doesn’t mean it’s right for you not to be fairly compensated, but it’s a reason the disparity might exist.
Ask to sit down with your line manager, tell you’re aware of the discrepancy and feel your experience warrants an increase in line with current market rates.
And be prepared to leave if you have to. If you don’t like their answer, it’s going to result in you feeling pretty shit about the company and your place in it.
sihasihasi@reddit
They can't stop you. It's your own information which you can choose to share how you like.
Curious_Orange8592@reddit
It's illegal to prevent employees from discussing wages
Specialist_Catch_800@reddit
You can't be in trouble since your discussion was clearly for the purpose of identifying discrimination
Enough_Response@reddit
First of all, don't get mad just because someone else is getting theirs. Be happy for them that someone is successful at negotiating wages.
The issue seems to be that you've let your own wages stagnate for 5 years. (This is why typically people recommend switching jobs every 3 years to maximise pay rises).
If a boss doesn't have to pay you more, they wont.
queefybean@reddit
To be fair, it’s his first full time job and it’s literally a trainee role so I don’t really think he’s negotiated his wage.
I’ve only been with the company for two years, and the five years previously was in a slightly different sector. I made the slight career change to this company at near minimum wage and have since been promoted once, whereas he came in immediately at my wage, so I don’t think what you’ve said applies here.
Enough_Response@reddit
> I don’t really think he’s negotiated his wage.
That depends on the industry, which hasn't been mentioned. University graduates doing "their first job" absolutely still take trainee roles in some industries and can absolutely negotiate pay if they came out with a First.
Enough_Response@reddit
> I don’t really think he’s negotiated his wage.
That depends on the industry, which hasn't been mentioned. University graduates doing "their first job" absolutely still take trainee roles in some industries and can absolutely negotiate pay if they came out with a First.
ClevelandWomble@reddit
Just say you were chatting in the pub. Free speech and all that. Unless you have an NDA they can't stop you.
MichaelBealesBurner@reddit
That’s why you’re better off not knowing , unless you just want to be pissed off or have something else lined up
NoFewSatan@reddit
No, you're better off knowing so that you can make your case for a reasonable increase.
GardenDuck88@reddit
This happened to my husband. He found out that the new person (who he was going to be training) was being paid more than him. But he found out because HR accidentally made everyones salary details public on the companies internal communications systems for a few hours. He screenshotted it before they removed it and went and demanded a pay rise. Which he got.
DIY_at_the_Griffs@reddit
Yes you can. Demand what you deserve.
Millionth-throw-away@reddit
You're not fucked, they cannot prevent you from discussing this
ArtificialPigeon@reddit
You absolutely can admit you know. And you should admit it too. If they value your skills they'll honour a pay increase. And if they try to discipline you it's tribunal time
KingGeedo91@reddit
Unless you’ve accessed confidential information on the system yourself or something similar you can totally admit you know and rightfully complain
WorldAncient7852@reddit
In my small company we agree our wages together annually. I presents the annual wages budget and we decide together who gets what based on our performance in the last year. It’s surprisingly easy to do, nobody is left out, people are very motivated by their colleagues decisions and everyone is very clear where they stand. This has worked very well for us for 17 years now and I genuinely don’t see why this isn’t standard.
MPHOLLI@reddit
That sounds fucking mental. Fair play to you for making that work.
WorldAncient7852@reddit
Does it? It builds transparency, trust and respect in the whole team. I have incredibly low staff turnover, everyone who’s left so far has only done so to start their own business. One’s an accountant now, she wanted to do that long term instead of what we do so I started her doing our books. She’s now my accountant. Another wanted to start a design business, so who did my next rebrand? And she’s building my next site as we speak. Another left to start her own catering business but uses my product cost and pricing structure to keep her profitable - and I use my container buying power to keep her unit price down.
As a side benefit, I recently had to leave work for a substantial period of time to look after a dying relative. Like a go overnight situation. Four of my previous staff came back to help the current team keep the ship afloat. I didn’t ask, would never have, they just did it. I can’t see the downside to this system and I genuinely can’t see why more people don’t do it. If you don’t treat people like shit, you get their golden selves.
NibblyPig@reddit
It sounds like it would build pettiness and resentment, and that people would air grievences about others work ethic. It sounds like a verbal mad-max thunderdome.
Even in a best case scenario where people have the best of intentions, if two people think they are deserving of a substantial raise but the budget only allows one of them to get it, and they both put forward good arguments, you end up with either half a raise (or less if more people want it) or someone being out-argued and sore.
And in the average scenario, people have different opinions of each others value and then have to justify why they think the value of others' isn't as good as they think it is, which is gonna be a lot of ego bruising...
WorldAncient7852@reddit
And yet, no. The thunderdome scenario has never happened. People do know who does what in a close team, who knows more about the business, who's better at dealing with hard situations and who's more likely to stay for an hour when it's needed. And if everyone's supported in their ultimate aspirations, pettiness doesn't survive. It's not an adversarial talk, it's a practical one, and my salary is in the mix too, so I'm not asking anyone to give more than I do, ever.
hotfixplease@reddit
Companies love the secrecy because it keeps the payroll low. If nobody knows what everyone else makes, they don't have to explain why the new guy is earning more than the veterans.
deprevino@reddit
Illegal. Please let them try.
insomnimax_99@reddit
Not illegal in most contexts.
Discussing pay is only legally protected if you are doing it to establish if there has been discrimination due to protected characteristics.
Discussing pay in all other contexts is not legally protected.
peppermint_aero@reddit
"Discussing pay is only legally protected if you are doing it to establish if there has been discrimination due to protected characteristics."
How would they know if that was your intent? Most teams are going to have some variation in sex/ethnicity/disability etc.
ICanEditPostTitles@reddit
You'd need to be the same age, ethnicity, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation, disability, marital status & parental status,
Sea_Appearance6837@reddit
You’ve been downvoted simply for stating a fact. Yes there are ways to work around it, but the fact you’ve been downvoted is astounding 😂
Slartibartfast_25@reddit
I'm not sure on what basis they could prevent you from talking about your pay, though. So surely any action to enforce their arbitrary rule cannot be legal, even if it is not protected.
HugAllYourFriends@reddit
it's illegal for an employer to prevent the discussion in most workplace contexts because you do not need any suspicion of discrimination to have a copnversation about whether discrimination has occurred. Even a discussion in an open setting between people with identical characteristics could be protected if it's part of a broader attempt by one of the participants to figure out if there's a pattern
richard0cs@reddit
By the letter of the law, yes, in practice there's usually some protected characteristic that differs between most colleages, so a savvy employee can usually claim that protection.
Dull_Training_6020@reddit
I think all money talk has a certain element of taboo. I don't get it. But I don't really feel jealous about anything really, and I think that's a driving force behind a lot of the tabooness with money.
They cannot actually stop you though as such a clause is illegal. My bosses have hinted before that it would lack tact to discuss a pay increase when others haven't got one. I think they're fully aware they can't actually stop anyone though.
I'd keep your lid, but use it as justification for your market value to negotiate yourself a payrise. Along with working out how much inflation has been since you started so what you should be on.
claretkoe@reddit
I was brought up to be told it was crude to discuss earnings/wages and I've stuck to that.
I'm not interested in what other people earn, I've accepted a salary to do the job that I do, if I feel no longer happy with it ill ask for an increase, or look for an alternative position that pays more.
Worked fine for me for 45 years.
stowgood@reddit
It isn't do it.
-info-sec-@reddit
Naa, sod them. They don't want you talking about it, because it causes friction and people asking for pay rises. Imagine being paid £10k, £20k or even £30k less than someone else.
I sit next to someone and earn £38k more then then. We do the same job!
Dolphin_Spotter@reddit
My employer had a collective bargaining agreement with a recognised union and all pay rates were published each year so everyone knew roughly what everyone else got.
nfk99@reddit
because you are all on different wages and they don't want you to know it.
its that simple.
learn about money branching jobs if you want more money but less happiness
veritasmeritas@reddit
It really isn't in the NHS. Everybody knows what band everyone else is on, which determines their rough salary and you only need to know how long they've been on that band to know their exact salary. It's quite common for people to share what spine point they are on their band.
Tattycakes@reddit
I love the wage openness of the NHS, it tells you what level of seniority and responsibility someone is working at as well, and roles are job matched against others so you're not likely to doing something for less money that someone else is doing the next county over is doing for more (London excluded ofc)
voluotuousaardvark@reddit
I was working for an agency along nhs staff removing clinical waste they were all quite upset I was making more than them- rightly so too.
Mohrg@reddit
I got a lecture from a former boss once, I had discussed salary ranges amongst my team with a member that I felt was grossly under paid. I was told that the underpaid employee would now seek employment elsewhere, to which I replied I would help and write glowing references and she should as it would be easy to double her wage!
People should discuss a wage, if the business can justify a lower wage for people fine but they should be able to tell an employee to their face.
I've been on the receiving end having to support someone and basically do their job for them on top of mine for lower wages.
OfficalSwanPrincess@reddit
It's not taboo at all, it's to stop people finding out new highers or potentially people with less experience are on more than you.
Madbrad200@reddit
" it's not taboo, here's the reason why it's taboo " ??
Tiny-Ric@reddit
Taboo
RainbowPenguin1000@reddit
“I don’t get why it’s considered taboo…. I flipped a lid when I found out”
That’s why. People get annoyed and want more money. Companies don’t want all their employees feeling they should get more money.
Sometimes they deserve it, sometimes they don’t, but if a person finds out a colleague is on more than them then it often frustrates people.
iz_bit@reddit
Even when the difference is deserved it can frustrate people. Throughout my career I never wanted to find out how much my peers earn because I didn't want to see a number above their head from there on, and likewise they above mine.
If you feel like you don't earn enough, speak to your manager and try to get a raise, or go find a job which pays better. That feeling should have nothing to do with how much your peers are earning.
LeTreacs2@reddit
I’m going to softly disagree there. How much I’m worth is affected by how much the average is. If I’m performing above average then I want above average pay, but I need to know what the average is to make that determination. The only way to know that is to know what my colleagues are earning
iz_bit@reddit
Everyone thinks they're performing above average and everyone will want above average pay.
turntupytgirl@reddit
employers can say no lol
LeTreacs2@reddit
Ok? Then the boss has that conversation with the employee. Either they are and they get the raise or they aren’t and they don’t. I don’t see the problem.
Total_Orchid@reddit
I think part of the problem is that there are groups of people who will believe they are worth lower wages because they are often offered lower wages due to bias by whoever is hiring them.
Working for a very small company, it was illuminating when we found the 3 women employed in a similar role were paid on average £10k less than the men in the same role.
This was not based on merit or length of service; one of the guys getting paid £10k extra was actually being trained by one of the women who had worked there substantially longer. She had asked for a pay rise shortly after he got hired and was told that her workload didn't justify it.
We wouldn't have found out about the pay discrepancy without that new guy saying what his pay was; the others were cagey about wages discussions. We didn't begrudge him for his salary at all, but we wouldn't have known how shit the situation was without him talking about it. I respect the hell out of him for sharing that info.
MazrimReddit@reddit
I often know I am paid more than people at the same level because I negotiate hard.
I wouldn't mind a law saying everyone has to know for example, but i'm not going to go out of my way to share that with people
-Xserco-@reddit
If people knew how much they were being screwed they'd have the intellect to actually force unions back as mandatory.
Discuss your pay openly. It is your protected right.
TheDawiWhisperer@reddit
so the company can pay people as little as possible
Buddy-Matt@reddit
If you're pissed off because a totally different company offers different wages, imagine how pissed you'd be if you discovered the same within your company.
This is generally why people dont talk about salaries. If you're the guy earning 50% more than the rest of your team you dont want to risk pissing them off. If youre the guy earning 50% less you don't want to piss yourself off.
And of course companies encourage this. They don't want discussion, because they dont want half the staff getting salty they earn less. Its not illegal automatically (unless theyre trying to hide discrimination) but generally speaking it is unenforceable.
ThickOutcast@reddit
I manage a small team, and encourage my employees to compare salaries. They all get paid the same amount, which is more than I earn due to shift premiums etc.
The only people that benefit from these discussions being silenced are the ones that keep the wages low.
Milky_Finger@reddit
In my experience, disclosing salary causes:
I believe that we should discuss salaries more openly, but we need to change as a culture in the UK first. We need to lift each other up to achieve as much money as possible in every job you get, and not trying to make it "fair".
maccon25@reddit
corporate interest
Shanobian@reddit
I think they intentionally mislead people to think that but what's actual taboo/illegal is to discuss other people's wages. It's illegal to try and stop discussing it If you are happy to disclose and others are
cheandbis@reddit
Years ago I got sent a spreadsheet with every employee on it from HR. I can't remember what it was for but they thought they had done a good job of hiding all the sensitive information however the genius HR bod had simply hidden the columns, like salary. When I realised, I also realised what power I had as I had all my peer's and superiors' salary information so I held a lot of cards when I came to reviews and such.
I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be taboo and we should be aware of what our colleagues earn. It stops people having unfair insight through luck or whatever and helps us have honest conversations. Salaries vary within my team for good reason and if lowest paid came and asked why they were being paid less than highest paid, I'd have to tell them the gaps.
It does mean that companies need to be strict with hiring etc. Bumping someone up to get them into the business may piss incumbent colleagues off for instance. I think the pain is worth the gain however.
Cielo11@reddit
It's not talked about where I work because pay seems random.
Some people are earning 30% more than me. Some are earning less. For identical work.
So the people on more money don't want it to be talked about.
Agreeable_Guard_7229@reddit
Have you compared the total package you currently get to the competitor?
Often companies with higher headline salaries may not offer good pension contributions, medical benefits, performance rates pay, bonuses etc.
Worth considering and no, your employer would struggle to legally discipline you for talking to colleagues about your salary.
CountTruffula@reddit
Precisely because of the end of your post, they don't want people finding out how unequal the pay is and complaining
PolarLocalCallingSvc@reddit
It's not? I've discussed them with colleagues before.
Lagmeister66@reddit
So Bosses can stealthily pay people below their worth
Discuss your wages with your colleagues! Demand to be paid fairly!
skelly890@reddit
Everyone’s wages should be posted on the company website, and outside wherever they work. Hourly rate.
Yammerhant@reddit
People tend to get annoyed when they find out that the new start is getting paid more than them.
Key_Produce2617@reddit
So what you want it’s not the law.
ShakeNBakeUK@reddit
bcos everyone is paid differently based on skills / experience / delivery and if you go around telling everyone you're getting paid more then everyone else is gonna complain :3
Murky_Snow_8693@reddit
I find it’s more taboo the older you get. Maybe it’s just my personal position on it, but I’ve always had very open chats with colleagues around the same age as me, particularly at graduate level, however, yeah I’d never ask a senior colleague or discuss each others wages in the same way. Maybe it’s partially a ‘respect your elders’ thing, maybe it’s the taboo, idrk
Frank_Fhurter@reddit
its not, do it.
Mr-Incy@reddit
If a company is advising their employees to not discuss pay it is because they don't want people to find out any pay discrepancies between people doing the same job, which will obviously cause people to start asking for a pay rise.
The pay differences may not be related to a protected characteristic, like gender, it could simply be how well the person negotiated their salary at the start of employment and during any pay rise discussions.
If the company doesn't give everyone the same percentage pay rise, i.e. performance related pay rises, it also helps them to keep pay rises to a minimum as there will always be those who just accept what the company offer, or aren't very strong negotiators.
In your example of a rival firm are getting paid more than you, Knowing a rival firm pays more doesn’t have anything to do with discussing salaries with colleagues, so it’s not really relevant to whether internal pay discussions should happen.
What it can do is give you a better idea of what the market rate is for your role, which you can then use to decide whether to leave or try and negotiate a pay rise to match that pay.
ResplendentBear@reddit
> I just don't get why it is generally considered taboo
> At the end of the day most companies do not give a fuck about you one bit, as long as you make them money.
You've answered your own question. Why do something that is just going to cause the company grief and a higher wage bill.
> Yet I found out recently that at a rival firm, the salaries are significantly larger than at ours. I nearly flipped a lid when I found this out
That's not on the company, it's on you. There will always, always be, or be rumoured to be better paying companies. It's up to you to go get the job (if it exists).
failsworth@reddit
Yea, im all for wage transparency but the argument in the op about another company paying considerably more, thats got nothing to do with the amount that their colleagues are on.
Some companies pay bad, some companies pay ok, some pay well. One thing the op could do is put together some evidence in the form of job adverts, classroom reviews etc that "equivalent" competitor companies pay considerably more and use that as some ammunition as to why everyone's wages should be increased.
The higher up you are in an organisation and if you hold enough responsibility, other people's wages are always going to be different, its much more about how good you are at negotiating your package etc after a certain point
LowAnimator8770@reddit
Because your boss doesn’t want people asking for more when they discover they get paid less than someone doing same job.
Swansboy@reddit
It's not, but companies don't like it because they them have to try and beat offer of new standard.
srm79@reddit
They just don't want you to know that they aren't an equal pay company and that they're most likely holding down wages
Terrible-Group-9602@reddit
Can you join the rival firm?
Affectionate_Hour867@reddit
I could tell everyone if I wanted to, but nobody (other than my boss) earns more than I do. They all obviously know I earn more as I have more responsibilities and more work to do than anyone else. The thing is they wouldn’t be happy knowing I’m earning way more than them because everyone thinks they are a hard worker and they deserve more money etc.
Everyone at work has little benefits, some start early so they can leave early, some get fuel allowance, others have a half day on a Friday, others have fag breaks whenever they want but I get a cash bonus instead. This does boost my wage but I would still earn the most without it. I’m lucky to be in my position but I have worked hard to get to where I am and I do everything I can every day to make sure shit gets done!
One_Assumption_154@reddit
We discuss wages regularly at our place of work, with the exception of the upper management (approx 1,300 staff). Its probably 2/3 blue collar workers and 1/3 white collar folk in the mix. Nothing taboo about wage talk at our site, there is also a heavy union presence.
PaulaDeen21@reddit
If were you’d I’d find out how fun that ‘disciplinary’ can be.
Totally illegal. Let them try…
RtHonJamesHacker@reddit
Yeah, get that down in writing if you haven't already, OP.
MangoonianLord@reddit
Depends on the workplace on the taboo and usually age, younger people are more willing to discuss.
It is illegal for employers stop people discussing their wages (at least in England and Wales).
darybrain@reddit
There is nothing stopping you discussing with it colleagues. Some will be open and some won't as it is personal information to them.
Sometimes some folks are just better understanding their own worth and/or negotiating so can get something extra on top of the base salary with either money, perks, or both.
Emme42560@reddit
Just so you know. It is ILLEAGAL for them to tell you not to discuss wages. They do not want you to know what others are making. You can and should be aware of what others are making.
evertonblue@reddit
This is incorrect. They can tell you not to - there is no law that stops them
You then aren’t allowed to discuss wages except to identify if a pay differential exists due to a protected characteristic. (Gender,race,age etc)
So just make sure you are doing it for that reason and then there is nothing they can do to stop you - but you just need to be very slightly careful.
Shiroyasha_a@reddit
Deliberately done by the comapnies to exploit employees
sakmentoloki@reddit
I mean they don't want you to discuss wages because that way you don't know how under paid you are
username994743@reddit
You answered your own question there.
geekroick@reddit
You've basically answered your own question. The reason employers don't want or like the discussion is that they don't want their own staff to realise that in fact the grass may be greener on the other side.
The disciplinary thing is an empty threat... Except for the people who don't know the law and are not willing to stand up for themselves should they get in trouble as a result. Equality Act 2010 should cover most of it.
Enough_Response@reddit
Correct. It's 100% legal to discuss your own wages (not anyone elses mind) in work. Discussing anyone elses without their permission falls under data protection.
No-Championship9542@reddit
I don't know, I have my own business and when I hire people to do stuff (like fix a boiler) they always advocate hard on pay. Maybe this is like a weird thing for unusual people doing corpo jobs
Glittering_Win_5085@reddit
It's in the interests of the company for people to not know because it helps them keep them down. It's illegal as others have pointed out but tbh you will find the quickest method is to join a different company.
People do slag off the public sector, but I found the local government pay scale really transparent.
peppermint_aero@reddit
"At my workplace we have been advised by our bosses not to discuss our wages at all, and anybody caught doing so would be subject to a disciplinary."
I'd love them to put that in writing. There are legally protected reasons to discuss pay - if, for instance, you suspect different genders/ethnicities are on different salaries purely on grounds of gender/ethnicity.
shaolin_taval@reddit
Because of this:
English employee, as lvl 4, has the same money as me(foreigner) lvl 5 while an English guy, as lvl 5, will get with 10k more. From all 3 of us, I'm the most experienced person, with the best results and feedback from the customers and different departments.
Perfect_Consequence9@reddit
They can't stop adults from discussing things this important.
VINCENTREYES@reddit
Because the moment employees start comparing numbers, the whole "we're like a family here" illusion collapses instantly. They know exactly what they're doing by keeping it quiet.
Slava Ukraine
NoFewSatan@reddit
This is illegal
Odd-Accident-3287@reddit
I think people in general just don’t talk about wages , I think it’s rude to know or ask
Physical-Industry-21@reddit
They don't want you to talk about it to each other because everyone's on a different wage. Somebody might have been in to ask for a pay rise, got it and told to keep quiet about it otherwise everybody would want one. Sneaky arseholes at the end of the day...
Radiant_Fondant_4097@reddit
If management tells you to keep a lid on salaries, it’s because pay scales are blatantly imbalanced.
As for general chat between your colleagues, not every one can handle that kind of conversation in a mature manner so YMMV.
Tumping@reddit
Classic example :
New guy underqualified 38k
Existing better employee 35k
Word got out and they demanded a meeting and managed to get more ! Cost the company 5k more a year on the existing employees
They want you to keep quite so they don’t have to pay you more !
MinimumBeginning5144@reddit
I think this is analogous to insurance companies, the AA and RAC charging new customers a lot less than existing customers. Employers need to offer attractive salaries to attract new staff, to make it worthwhile for them to change job. But once they're in their job, their employer doesn't increase their salary as much as they had hoped when they joined. Most HR departments will vehemently deny this.
Educational-Angle717@reddit
Fors and against - it is best practice for companies to diclose who is on what but at the same time if i'm on say a middle band and a colleague I know well is on alot more than me do I really want to know about that?
A_Chicken_Called_Kip@reddit
The only people that benefit from not discussing wages is the employer. They want us in the dark.
Jills89@reddit
Not discussing it creates the stagnation of wages. We SHOULD discuss it if anything!
breadlinn@reddit
It's not taboo and they can't discipline you
Personally encourage the discussion so everyone knows where they're at.
Know your worth, don't be taken advantage of!
bvlinc37@reddit
They can't legally stop you from discussing wages. They don't want you to talk about it so people won't realize so and so gets paid more for the same job and then want a raise.
Eastern-Move549@reddit
Its 'taboo' because most people are so wet that they dont want to upset the boss that is trying to screw them over.
GardenDuck88@reddit
I always think, if the company is against you talking about your pay, you should DEFINITELY be talking about your pay.
doegrey@reddit
This is exactly why.
Max_Power_332@reddit
Just FYI it’s illegal to ban discussion on wages as it’s a way of suppressing any gender pay gaps.
yiddoboy@reddit
It favours management to be that way.
macleod2024@reddit
You find it’s these places that pay low wages that have this clause. They’ve got people for as little as they can over the years. Someone who started 5 years ago may be on a lower wage than someone starting yesterday.
MaxximumB@reddit
I think it's only common in America. In the UK people can discuss salary / wages. Im guessing on America bosses like to keep staff divided and this is one way. If their whole workforce were free to discuss their renumeration it would be easier to band together to ask for better pay.
It seems like the American way these days is to keep people below you down there. Let them make money for you. From an external view it seems like common human decency doesn't apply when dealing with workers below you. Apart from gaslighting them about all being one big family. And that this year's pizza party is an apology for the lack of pay rise.
Same_Difference_3361@reddit
I don't get it either. I was born and raised in Germany (left in 2001) and most companies I worked for had pay scale IDs ... every joiner got X ... every Y number of years you were moved up. So literally everyone knew what everyone earns based on the years of service
New_Line4049@reddit
"I nearly flipped a lid" Yes. This is exactly why its frowned upon. People get irrationally emotional and it can cause all manner of issues. Although worth noting its not legal for them to prevent you discussing it. They can discourage it, but not stop it
Throwaway6765656@reddit
From an employers perspective they don’t want people talking about it because they don’t want the people who are being fucked over to realise they’re being fucked over.
I remember one of my first corporate jobs before I even knew it was “taboo” I got into a salary conversation with 2 girls I’d formed close friendships with.
Turned out the one I did an identical role to was earning 3k less than me despite having been there 2 years (I was new), and the other one, who’d recently been promoted within the business and I’d replaced her old role, was on the same salary despite now being higher up. Obvs they both raised it with their managers and their salaries had to be increased. Manager was fucked off with me for talking about it, as if I should’ve known they were fucking them both over and been supportive of it 😂
M27TN@reddit
You absolutely are allowed to discuss your salaries. Is it a good idea? Depends what come from the conversation.
Swimming-Lie5369@reddit
" I found out recently that at a rival firm, the salaries are significantly larger than at ours."
That's why
8bitPete@reddit
Because they like to under pay some staff but expect the same level of work.
Auntie_Cagul@reddit
Because that is how you find out that your colleagues are earning so much more than you.
Eskoala@reddit
Because it benefits the employees and disbenefits the company.
Bitter_End_5643@reddit
Um, tell your work that that's illegal - you absolutely can and should discuss salary
HR_Specter@reddit
Well you answered your own question. If everyone knew what they were on then they would kick off as they will find out they're on much less than they should be. Also, certain workers will be getting paid more than others, so if that got out then it would cause a massive shitstorm.
linkheroz@reddit
It's only been made by bosses to make sure that everyone is paid the minimum they'll accept, not the same. If your bosses are asking you not to discuss wages, you should discuss your wages with literally everyone.
CoconutNuts5988@reddit
Get yourself a union.
BeccasBump@reddit
Because transparency about workers' wages is not advantageous to employers.
BinarySecond@reddit
Discuss you wages, let them discipline you. That's a illegal.
DoctorWhofan789eywim@reddit
I would love to see them try. It would be very illegal, and the easiest payday ever for the employee who sues them for for it.
TheAncientGeek@reddit
Its not an ethical rule, its just inconvenient for.them.
PleasantCucumber2615@reddit
Basically your company know the wages are poor, but somehow asking people not to talk about wages means it won't come out?
That's not going to work as you have already said. It automatically makes you think something isn't right.
Millionth-throw-away@reddit
You are legally entitled to discuss your pay with colleagues, and any attempt to prevent this is in breach of the law.
CharmingSwing1366@reddit
as far as in the workplace and them saying it’s taboo is bc it benefits the company and nothing else
imintheyentry@reddit
I don't keep secrets, if someone asks me il tell them but I don't ever bring it up especially if I'm fairly certain im on more money than them because of they're job roll.
dennis3282@reddit
It isn't really. I don't know if UK employees care the way US ones do.
Either way, it is so nobody finds out they are underpaid compared to colleagues and can justifiably ask for a pay rise...
MCL-Jonathan@reddit
No it’s not. Discuss among yourself make sure it’s fair!
Prestigious-Ice-9749@reddit
I've always made it a point to talk about it with my co-workers, ESPECIALLY when we are encouraged not to
Mezcalico@reddit
I think you’ve answered your own question.
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