Why do so many people hate unions / strikes?
Posted by FaithlessnessOdd3569@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 279 comments
As the title says, why do so many people in the UK have a negative view of trade unions and industrial action?
When the ultra wealthy are all getting richer and pretty much everything is becoming more expensive then why would any working class person have an issue with workers trying to get better pay and conditions?
Its also very well documented that a lot of the benefits and protections workers have in the UK are down to trade unions.
PJT76@reddit
SERFs. Not really their fault, it’s in their DNA.
Whole-Strawberry3281@reddit
Because they have stupid demands. The principal I am not against, but it's always junior doctors complaining they don't get paid enough because they went to uni for 5 years, forgetting they'll be on 80k plus in a few years anyway, train drivers who don't ever do their job anyway etc. Only legit case in recent times is nurses, but didn't get a fair pay rise anyway
I_Rarely_Downvote@reddit
Crabs in a bucket mentality, they feel like their lives aren't going so well but rather than try to improve things for themselves they have distain for those who do.
No-Pack-5775@reddit
Yep
Public pensions are a great example of this.
"Booo! Why should they get good pensions when we don't!"
Well done, now everybody's pensions are shit!
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
I'm sure you can contemplate why DB pensions with 20%+ employer contributions don't happen in the private sector.
Truth is, these schemes come at a massive cost, and are unsustainable in the long term, and expecting the taxpayer to stump up even more tax to fund them isn't a long term reality.
DogThatGoesBook@reddit
Very few final salary DB schemes exist (schemes are now typically average salary DC schemes at least in Higher Education which has its own problems). Also the 20% employer contribution is essentially deferred pay as the salaries are probably at least 20-30% lower than equivalent private sector roles(probably closer to 50% for some professional roles)
Whole-Strawberry3281@reddit
They are not, usually very similar if not higher. They look at big tech etc and say look they get paid more but forget to look at every other job. Civil service especially is overpaid + has massive pension
yetanotherredditter@reddit
Public sector DB pensions are just a pyramid scheme. They are unfunded, which means if they ever stop, there is going to be a massive bill to pay over a long period of time.
Essentially, whoever the chancellor was when they were introduced got a massive windfall for their budgets, and sceewed over the future.
No-Pack-5775@reddit
Well they get both a shit salary and pension
And the whole economy is a pyramid scheme, and workers are just getting the shittier and shittier end of the stick...
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
No, they really don't.
dan_gleebals@reddit
Rubbish. Except at the very top public sector pay is higher than private plus a better pension.
f8rter@reddit
Correct
MrStilton@reddit
That's only true of some schemes.
E.g. the Local Government Pension Scheme is a funded scheme.
yetanotherredditter@reddit
That is the only funded public sector DB scheme.
WGSMA@reddit
The DB schemes of old were fiscally unsustainable and it’s a good thing they’ve been killed off
We should copy the Australian model of mandatory high-match auto enrollment
Smaxter84@reddit
When the chancellor keeps doing dumb shit on the dailt that fucks over your private pension, meanwhile your taxes are used to cover shortfall in NHS pensions because their under funded, and invested in poorly returning gilts not equities, and none of it is invested in the UK but overseas making US capital markets liquid and boyant whiles stymying our own markets, and not helping grow UK companies to pay tax in the UK, it can be slightly fucking annoying.
nobodyspecialuk24@reddit
We’ve also had 40odd years of anti Union propaganda aimed at us, since Thatcher. Just look at how Mick Lynch is tested every time he’s on TV.
Anxious_Perception10@reddit
I found it to be more anecdotal, bus strikes for instance. Had a bunch of colleagues whingeing something wrotten (they typically were not impacted directly, but so and so couldnt get to work etc). Daunting how little they considered the broader impact. Media slander has a long bill to pay in regards to union bashing. Plus, what the red wall areas had to fight so hard to earn seems like a distant memory, short memories I guess.
coffeewalnut08@reddit
True. They'll look for an easy target to blame instead of helping themselves and helping their community.
HandsOfGawd@reddit
Because I think we shouldn’t be held back to the whims of people like train drivers. We could have more efficient public transport if it wasn’t for one of the many blockers
Unseasonal_Jacket@reddit
I think there are plenty of legitimate reasons (I'm a unison member BTW)
Unions represent their members and that doesn't mean acting in the best interests for country/users/customers. That can obviously create an adversarial relationship.
People have long memories of when unions were complicit in a period of great economic problems in the country.
Strikes can very easily look like blackmail.
Union bosses are not always the best 'faces' of the union to the public. They might be fantastic in negotiations but can easily alienate people.
Loads of easy reasons that don't have to be lack of understanding or crabs in a bucket.
llynllydaw_999@reddit
I'm a Union member in a unionised industry. But I still loathe people who go on strike to get pay they frankly don't deserve for the work they do because then can cause massive disruption to everyone else. Maybe that's jealousy, but that's still what I feel.
Responsible_Drive380@reddit
I'm in higher education... I don't think we get the pay we deserve. The people at the top keep getting more though. Despite incremental pay rises each year, I've earnt less in real terms each year for the last 5 years at least and my workload increases
Both_Imagination_941@reddit
Absolutely correct. In real terms, my salary now as a prof is less than when I was a reader - ridiculous. And as you said, my workload didn’t get any better. What is interesting: without the Union, I reckon the salary would be 10-20% lower in nominal terms (not to mention our USS pension would be total crap by now). Despite knowing that, the majority of my British colleagues are not Union members (luckily a significant fraction of the academic staff come from overseas - so, say thanks to them 😂).
Responsible_Drive380@reddit
Completely agree. Career aspiration has been tempered with life balance for some time now. I'm in the fortunate position that I don't have to compete in the publish or die culture. I've had to be strategic in making myself valuable enough to keep my job whilst taking on roles that are wide open to role creep.
Our employer has just started a subsidiary company so that all new employees are on a DC pension. We've had VC rounds for the last 8 years, MARS for the last 2, and now facing redundancies as departments are closed. Trumpflation won't make it any easier. Just hoping they don't move to fire/rehire. I'm grateful for a job to be honest. Without unions we'd be far off down the river by now
User-Name-3886@reddit
Do you feel this happens often?
Cost of living has been skyrocketing for 2 decades but salaries have not meaningfully increased in that time.
I can't even think of one unionised area where striking for higher pay wouldn't be fair in the current climate.
bow_down_whelp@reddit
What's the alternative
AJMurphy_1986@reddit
Its bordering on stupidity
georgexsmiley@reddit
Sometimes, people object because the union ARE the rich and wealthy, and are using their power to manipulate and exploit.
For example, train drivers earn c £60,000 pa, and they're in the richest 10% by income. But they often strike when it is proposed that they work more flexibly,like,say,shop workers or police officers on 50-60% of that salary,they strike.
Doctors earn c £40k after 5 years of study, rising to a median of about £118k ten-twelve years out,or about 3-4 times a typical nurse's salary. Teachers earn about £31k after 4 years of study and about £42 after 10-12 years. Teaching is so stressful that a third of people abandon it after 5 years.
So, many of the people striking aren't poor and powerless. They're rich and powerful, and diverting public money away from poorly paid but essential public servants towards very richly paid but essential public servants.
M_M_X_X_V@reddit
The reason why they earn so much is because they strike. Care home workers and warehouse workers don't which is why they are stuck on minimum wage.
georgexsmiley@reddit
I can't think of any economists or sociologists that would explain it that way.
For example, care workers are unskilled and typically women. Train drivers are also essentially unskilled,but they're men. Care workers are often people of colour. Train drivers are overwhelmingly white. Rich people don't notice care workers and oppose improvements in their working conditions (see Burnham's and May's attempts to tax unearned wealth to pay carers better) but wealthy people use trains and so take notice.
Many unions and strikers represent the rich, the middle classes, the educated, white people and men. Maybe not all at once, but often one or more category in those groups.
FloydEGag@reddit
There’s nothing to stop care workers organising. Cleaners have done so and often won better pay and conditions.
I don’t know about the whole country - and tbf the majority of the population of the UK is white - but certainly in London train drivers aren’t overwhelmingly white. Driving a train doesn’t take nuclear physicist levels of skill, no, but it does take skill and a certain personality ime (I know a lot of drivers through work). Not just anyone can do it, just like not just anyone is cut out for care work or any other work you can name.
georgexsmiley@reddit
Ok. When you say "not just anyone can do any job you can name" you're just saying that different people do different jobs.
The skills, stress, education, hours, emotional labour of being a train driver are lower than nurses, teachers, police officers, and social workers.
Just saying "Everyone should organise and everyone should demand higher wages" is absolutely catastrophic economics and a terrible attitude to social justice. You can't spend the same pound twice, and in EVERY economic equation, there comes a time when you have to take money from x and give it to y. When I have to do that, I will always want to shift money from better paid to worse paid. And I always want to move it from low stress to high stress.
This is why politics and economics are difficult. You can't just wave fairy wands and give everyone ten donuts.
And you can't just say that the people who don't have ten donuts should all go on strike.
FloydEGag@reddit
Of course everyone should demand better wages! Care workers aren’t paid what they are worth. Train drivers are. Obviously not everyone is going to be worth shitloads but everyone should be paid more given how low wages are against inflation. Plenty of other countries manage to pay people more fairly
georgexsmiley@reddit
Ok, let's follow your model, and everyone demands and gets better wages to see what the economic and social implications are.
I often see the attitude, "Yeah,well,just pay everyone more! Stick it to the man!" But why don't we just do that?
If everyone's wages rise, inequality never changes. A train driver will still be worth 2 teachers/nurses, or 3 carers. Nothing changes. You're happy with that. I'm not.
If everyone's wages rise, then their productivity needs to increase. But these richer workers refuse to do that. A large part of train drivers' industrial action over the last five years has NOT been about pay. While teachers, nurses, police officers and shop workers accept that Sundays are just days for £25-32k a year, train drivers demand overtime for Sundays. Rigid shift patterns cause many of the problems we see on the railway. Train drivers demand more money for less flexible work.
If we just raise everyone's wages by 10% without increasing productivity, where does the money come from? "Oh!" says our populist, "Tax the millionaires and billionaires! Tax the corpotions!" Well, millionaires and billionaires can move their money where they like. It doesn't have to be in the UK. And 68% of ALL tax revenues come from income tax, national insurance (an additional income tax for the poor only) and VAT. Even if you tripled corporation tax to 75%, it would make no difference to the public finances,and large corporations would leave. What do people want the corporation tax to be, that will make a significant difference to the public finances? And if you just keep raising it, corporations don't have to be here.
So... What are you arguing for?
A) Either a train driver with no uni debt is worth two nurses, or they're not. I say, not. What do you say?
B) Either pay rises come from increased productivity, or they don't. Train drivers think they should have pay rises without increasing productivity. What do you think?
C) Finally, given that corporation tax or taxes on millionaires are ineffective and can ONLY EVER account for miniscule changes in the overall tax take, where do you think the money should come from?
Economics is about tough choices not just giving everyone donuts.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
There is a lot to criticise Train drivers about, but to say it is unskilled displays a high level of ignorance as to what the job entails.
georgexsmiley@reddit
No, it doesn’t. It shows I’m using economic and sociological categories. Unskilled jobs are jobs which you can enter with no qualifications or experience. For example working in elderly care is classed as unskilled. But it’s very difficult to do.
Train driving is one of the very last high paid jobs where education and prior experience play no role.
As an aside, I have actually driven a train in and out of Charing Cross. My grandad was a train driver, and it was different times. It really was very easy.
M_M_X_X_V@reddit
Unions are anti-white people and anti-men? Didn't you just say the overwhelmingly white and male train drivers are unionised?
georgexsmiley@reddit
No. The railway unions primarily represent white men. Carers are primarily women and people of colour.
White people and men are better paid than women and people of colour.
M_M_X_X_V@reddit
Ah right, I thought you said unions resent white people and men, I misread you. You said represent, my mistake.
FloydEGag@reddit
The train drivers earn what they earn because they’re in a strong union and because withdrawing their labour can cause serious disruption. They’re ’rich and powerful’ (not actually rich) because of that. Doctors and teachers absolutely should be paid a lot more, but look at the hate they get when they go on strike. Yet they won’t get those rises without striking because their employers won’t pay more than the minimum they can get away with without being forced. I absolutely support them striking btw, it’s the only way to get the pay they deserve.
Btw some train drivers have, in fact, been to university. They’re a diverse bunch. They’re also doing a job where if they fuck up, a lot of people could die, so there’s that.
georgexsmiley@reddit
Some may have been to university, but it's of no relevance to the job. All teachers are carrying debt.
Let's say everyone joins a union and strikes for better pay. Everyone . So everyone gets a pay rise. Then what?
It's fantasy economics.
There comes a point where you have to say: this is how much money we have to spend on, say, the health service. Every £1 we spend on doctors is £1 we can't spend on nurses, or care assistants or cleaners or porters or CT scanners. Just saying, "Doctors deserve more money," when they're some of the richest people in the country is silly storytelling, not good economics and not a step towards social justice.
wkrich1@reddit
£60k isn’t rich mate. That’s 0.00006% of 1 billion. These people are closer to those in poverty than millionnaires. It’s the hoarding billionaires who are the rich and wealthy ones you should be outraged at.
georgexsmiley@reddit
£60k puts you in the richest 15% of earners in Britain. And much richer than teachers and nurses, who, unlike train drivers, have been to university, and do much longer hours. You’re lucky if you can dismiss a salary like that, when a nurse mopping shit and blood off someone in a hospital is on half that, and is carrying debt.
M_M_X_X_V@reddit
If 2007 era wages kept up with inflation, we would be looking at a median income in the UK of around £42,000 and £60,000 would only put you in the top 40% or so, not the top 15%. We just have absolutely terrible wages all around relative to the cost of living and especially the cost of housing/rent in this country.
georgexsmiley@reddit
Ok. But that doesn't change the fact that being in the richest 15% of the 5th richest country in the world makes you rich.
You think everyone should be paid more, without corresponding increases in productivity. It's not sensible economics, but it's a lovely opinion.
wkrich1@reddit
I agree with everything you said. But £60k isn’t rich.
georgexsmiley@reddit
It is to me.
And if you're in the top 15% of income, with no student debt, you're rich. You're earning more than 85% of the entire country, and this country is a rich country. They're near the top of the pile, in a country which is near the top of the pile.
Sure, someone else might earn more, or have more. I'm always struck by the ways people (and not even always rich people) try to talk down their incomes, or say, 'Yeah, but there are billionaires.'
I'm comparing train drivers to the 85% of people who are poorer than them, not the 12-15% who are richer.
wkrich1@reddit
That’s your opinion. Anyone, regardless of income is entitled to fair pay for their skills. Maybe you should focus your discontent at companies not paying workers a fair wage rather than those unionised workers fighting for fair pay. It’s not a race to the bottom.
georgexsmiley@reddit
I have no discontent. And you have your opinion, I have mine, everyone else has theirs.
It doesn't have to be a race to the bottom, no. But not should it be a power play to the top.
Train drivers are low skill, low education, low stress, low working hours, low flexibility of hours public servants, paid for by the state. You may think that they're worth 2 nurses, or two teachers. I don't.
We're both just presenting opinions.
Royal_Scribblz@reddit
The only experience many have with striking is public transport which inconveniences them
AltruisticWishes@reddit
And many transit employees are compensated over market while fares are high
michaelscottdundmiff@reddit
In the uk the government sets most of the fares not the train companies. The strong unions within the transport sector are the reason that wages have kept up with inflation. Its not a race to the bottom, if every sector had strong unions then they too could fight for proper wage increases annually.
AltruisticWishes@reddit
I never said the fares aren't set by the government.
Many transit union workers are compensated WAY over market rates. 2 or 3 times market is not uncommon.
And yes, it comes out of the riders' pockets. Duh.
zviiper@reddit
“Market rate” is paltry. Good on them for making way more, and for twisting the arm of their wealthy overlords to get as much as they can.
You shouldn’t have a problem with the train driver on £80k a year wanting £90k, you should have a problem with the rolling stock leasing company owner making £80k a day doing fuck all.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
But we should have a problem with a train driver making £80k when a resident doctor is in £45K and is *worth* more but can't be paid more because the government pot is being drained by overpaid rail staff...
FloydEGag@reddit
No, we should have a problem with a resident doctor only being paid £45k when they deserve more. This doesn’t mean the train driver deserves less. The rail staff aren’t overpaid; the doctors are underpaid.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
An admirable statement.
Now explain how endless pay rises for public sector workers is paid for.
FloydEGag@reddit
You do know public sector workers pay taxes too, right?
zviiper@reddit
No it isn’t. The government has more than enough money to pay both healthcare workers and rail staff fairly, they just choose not to, and line their wealthy mates’ pockets instead.
If you genuinely believe that the reason doctors are poorly paid is because the money is going to train drivers then you are very naïve and have fallen for the billionaire class’ propaganda.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
Ah, right. Everything the fault of them billionaires, eh!
The government borrows billions each year, so no. We don't have enough money.
zviiper@reddit
Sovereign debt doesn’t work the same way as personal debt. It’s a scapegoat used by the government to justify cuts.
f8rter@reddit
So, we’ve established you don’t understand sovereign debt.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
Well, it does when we are paying 10% of the tax take each year servicing debt.
zviiper@reddit
It's not a payday loan, taking on sovereign debt to pay for things that result in economic growth or benefit to the population in excess of the cost of the debt is a good thing. You are the uninformed masses that they want to believe all of this, please educate yourself.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
Borrowing for investment in infrastructure is absolutely fine, and something we should have been doing during the years of low interest rates.
But borrowing to fund day to day spending is bad.
zviiper@reddit
No it isn’t. The government has more than enough money to pay both healthcare workers and rail staff fairly, they just choose not to, and line their wealthy mates’ pockets instead.
If you genuinely believe that the reason doctors are poorly paid is because the money is going to train drivers then you are very naïve and have fallen for the billionaire class’ propaganda.
AltruisticWishes@reddit
Unlike you, I understand economics. The "wealthy overlords" are you and me - we're paying for the huge overcompensation. Transit is publicly owned where I live.
And yeah, I have a problem with the subway where I live costing a freaking fortune to ride while the employees are massively and hugely overcompensated, like 4 or 5 times market rate for their unskilled labor.
Cold-Ad716@reddit
Subway?
WP1PD@reddit
Please show where this market where British train drivers are paid 3 times less is, because you seem to be confusing the market for what YOU think they should be paid.
f8rter@reddit
If every business had unions like the transport sector we wouldn’t have an economy
barnburner96@reddit
Yeah because they unionise.
AltruisticWishes@reddit
Sucks for everyone not in the union who is forced to pay higher prices
TheThotWeasel@reddit
For me I've noticed that whenever I see a strike on the trainlines around me they are ALWAYS weekends. That makes me agitated because GOD FORBID the working week gets disrupted, lets keep the billionaires pockets full, and fuck over the regular persons 2 free days of the week.
Same way people gluing themselves to a road gets me annoyed. If you are against oil, you know where those deliveries are going to, glue yourself to the road outside those entrances, it would be a HUGE inconvenience for the companies, would still get coverage and would help educate others without directly hurting them too.
michuneo@reddit
Mhm, ALWAYS. Last tube strike was on Wednesday.
TheThotWeasel@reddit
Bro cannot comprehend of a world outside London lmao
No_Doubt_About_That@reddit
The continental edition is the French air traffic.
Bossman_Mike@reddit
It's becoming less of a problem now, though. More people have the capacity to WFH and to be honest the Tube coped very well with the recent round of strikes, the inconvenience was pretty minimal and people worked around it.
M_M_X_X_V@reddit
How is a warehouse worker, a nurse or someone who stacks shelves in a supermarket supposed to do that from home?
Coconut681@reddit
Or the bin men, which also inconveniences them. But then that's the idea.
Eastern-Ant-4173@reddit
Because people are selfish and don't want to be inconvenienced.
etherkye@reddit
Because a few unions now are about making the union richer and more important, not their members. They’re also the biggest and loudest of them.
To clarify, it’s not all or even most. And most of them do a lot for their members, and the legal support they can provide is invaluable.
But as always, a few bad ones have the ability to ruin the perception of them all.
Taking all the trains down in London, and then it comes out they didn’t even meet at the negotiation table, just pisses all the commuters off, and makes everyone who suffers from it hate unions.
Djei_Tsial_III@reddit
Because some of them go too far (ASLEF) and have the power to hold the public to ransom.
FloydEGag@reddit
Last tubs strike was all RMT, even ASLEF thought they were taking the piss
Bossman_Mike@reddit
And contrary to popular belief, ASLEF and the RMT are not cuddling each other in bed.
WhalingSmithers00@reddit
Because the strike inconveniences them. Strikes are supposed to inconvenience people it's how they work but it does piss some people off.
FloydEGag@reddit
Breaking out this classic again https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/strikes-supposed-to-be-annoying-say-tube-drivers-2015070999992
Jin-shei@reddit
Not sure all of them understand it. Last time I was on a picket line, someone told me to get a job...
bterry28@reddit
It’s usually people in jobs without trade unions complaining because they don’t get regular pay rises or unions fighting for their rights and are jealous.
Rather than demand better conditions themselves they’d rather be angry at those who have done.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
Or alternatively it's people who know that they'll only get a payrise if the company is successful rather than people who demand *more* regardless of the economics of the situation.
bterry28@reddit
Most companies without unions aren’t handing out pay rises if they don’t have to full stop. I have several friends who have attempted to get a single pay rise after around 5 years of dedicated work and they all got told “sorry the company can’t afford it despite those companies making record profits.
Reason is, they have no power. They are an individual and their only options are suck it up or resign. The company has the money, inflation has risen so the employees have effectively had pay cuts but they don’t want to pay their employees better.
Any person who trusts the people running a business to share the profits over pocketing the money is a fool. Unions are what gives employees combined power to negotiate on equal footing.
f8rter@reddit
If there is a strong vibrant economy with strong demand for labour they can leave and get a job elsewhere
bterry28@reddit
Doesn’t make a difference, UK wages are pathetic, when are bad you get told there’s no money for pay rises, when things do well executive reward themselves with bonuses and offer pizza parties not meaningful pay rises. Having to jump from job to job never staying anywhere long enough to have any protections and having no union.
f8rter@reddit
I worked for companies where employees received bonuses 💁♂️
Equip yourself with the skills the markets demands and you earn more money
Nothing wrong with moving jobs if it’s in your interest to do so
If your are unskilled life’s gonna be shit
bterry28@reddit
I’m a skilled worker (electronic engineer) have a union and get a guaranteed pay rise every year minimum in line with inflation but unusually a fair bit better and pretty decent bonuses twice a year. I outearn all my friends working similar jobs in non union jobs by a pretty good margin.
Not every person should have to learn to be a sales person and negotiator to maintain a good wage. A union essentially is doing that for you, just instead of having to learn that and waste time as an individual negotiating, we all pay a meagre fee to have professionals do it for us and with more power as roup representation rather than individual.
f8rter@reddit
You pay us due to you being a skilled worker, and electronic engineer.
Fungled@reddit
Unions don’t effectively serve every kind of worker. They best serve people working in industries similar to those they were originally conceived for: where you have a large number of workers and a small (or single) employer. Basically what was typical at the beginning of industrialisation where you’d have the local massive widget factory with hundreds/thousands of employees
In 2026 many people work in sectors where there are a larger number of employers and they can just quit and go elsewhere. Conversely, the employer has to attract employees
So overall, they don’t serve everyone nearly as much as they’re held up to be a moral ideal. And that’s even before you get into considering if they’re effective when they are
PineapplePyjamaParty@reddit
NHS resident doctors can’t quit and go elsewhere. That’s probably why our union is a bit of a powerhouse at the moment.
f8rter@reddit
And everyone thinks you’re c*nts
Using 2008 as salary benchmark date ie when you were at school
And using the RPI, a a discredited index not the CPI.
peadar87@reddit
"Everyone thinks you're cunts"
Ah yes, healthcare workers, that famously hated group of people.
f8rter@reddit
No just the junior doctors happy to let patients die in furtherance of their ridiculous wage demands
theotherquantumjim@reddit
Speak for yourself. I’d like people who work in medicine and healthcare to be fairly paid for everything they do for us. Not dicked over by yet another government
f8rter@reddit
They are
And of course when they become consultants switching between private practice and nhs work £££££££££££££££££££
Did I mention the pension scheme ?🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
theotherquantumjim@reddit
Real terms pay cut of around 25% since 2008. But maybe you should train as a doctor if you believe they are so well compensated.
WP1PD@reddit
Train as a doctor? 100 years ago they wouldn't have let this guy milk a cow
f8rter@reddit
It’s not a real terms pay cut of 25% using the CPI not the discredited RPI
And the striking doctors were in school in 2008
And when they become consultants the earn a fcukin fortune working in both the private sector and the NHS
theotherquantumjim@reddit
it's not discredited. in fact, the government still use both, depending on the context (i.e. which makes them look better). But even using CPI it could still be as much as an 8% decrease in real terms. Hardly a headline figure to put on the recruitment material.
Why is it relevant that they were in school in 2008? My argument is about society's value that it places on a particular role, which when measured by the amount we pay people to do that job, has gone down - regardless of the metric you use.
And as I stated previously, if you believe they are so well paid, why not go and train to be one yourself?
f8rter@reddit
It absolutely is, the UKG now uses CPI or CPIH for almost all official inflation measurement, RPI is no longer an accredited National Statistic and survives only in a few legacy areas such, student loans, index-linked gilts and some excise duties.
https://obr.uk/box/the-long-run-difference-between-rpi-and-cpi-inflation/
wkrich1@reddit
Go train to be a doctor then mate.. nothing stopping you.
WGSMA@reddit
My wife thinks the public are cunts, and she will be striking again soon
If RPI is such a bad metric, the Gov is free to go and backstage the interest on her student loan to CPI.
Teembeau@reddit
That seems to be the prevailing view of doctors. Not that the public are paying their wages, but inconvenient cunts. Let's end the licensing, the monopoly and see how well doctors do.
ICantBelieveItsNotEC@reddit
While we're at it, let's end the NHS monopoly on healthcare and see what happens then. Doctors in every country where wages are set by market forces are paid multiple times more than they are here.
f8rter@reddit
Agree on the student loan
A Doctor who thinks her patients are c*nts ? At least she’s honest
nwindy317@reddit
I think people like you are cunts. Working class people against unions are just really receptive to propaganda.
f8rter@reddit
Unions have destroyed working class jobs
PineapplePyjamaParty@reddit
Sadly for you, you still need us 👍
f8rter@reddit
And you still need to work so 🤷
AltruisticWishes@reddit
That's not it. It's because they're got the NHS by the balls
PineapplePyjamaParty@reddit
Gladly.
AltruisticWishes@reddit
?
PineapplePyjamaParty@reddit
We gladly have the NHS by the balls.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
At least you are honest and admit that it is about personal greed.
wkrich1@reddit
Absolute crab in a bucket mentality.. Hope you say that to the doctor that saves your life one day… doctors should be well paid for the work they do. Nobody wants a surgeon operating on them who is overworked and worried about money.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
They ARE well paid.
Direct-Key-8859@reddit
Well paid doesnt mean fairly paid
fastestman4704@reddit
No they aren't.
Base salary for an FY2 is about £45K, for a CT4 it's about £65K.
A CT4 has been through what, 6 years on the job, and 5-6 years of uni. So they're maybe 30 years old. Considering what a doctor does, there's simply no way that that's enough. A senior engineer at the company I work for should not be taking home more than a fully qualified doctor, we fix coffee machines, they save lives.
It's easily one of the most stressful jobs in existence, they should be paid accordingly.
wkrich1@reddit
Go train to be one then.. nothing stopping you.
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
That reply makes no sense mate.
wkrich1@reddit
Intelligence clearly not one of your strengths.
Responsible_Drive380@reddit
If anyone is going to have anything by the balls then I think it should be doctors!
Bigtallanddopey@reddit
I agree completely with this. My own experiences of unions, is that they are just out for themselves and don’t really care about helping you. They want £15pm, but offer very little in return. And in some ways, they cannot offer much for the reasons you outline. The unions had very little power everywhere I have worked, and when they were called upon for advice, they were useless. Sometimes offering bad or completely incorrect advice.
A few years back when inflation was insanely high, our union was pushing us to strike unless we got 16%. Our employer had offered 7% if my memory is correct. In the end, we took so long deliberating and voting, that inflation calmed down and so they offered us 5% and we settled on that. We would have never in a million years striked, and we also would have never gotten 16%.
Apsalar28@reddit
The union at my old job turned down a 6% pay offer after years of pay freezes. The reason being part of the deal was taking away an car parking allowance about 20 long serving staff member, 5 of whom were on the union committee, were getting. It was introduced years before as a temporary thing when the car park was being resurfaced and they needed to pay for the multistory and then forgotten about. Meanwhile the company had moved offices twice and all the newer employees were having to pay for parking anyway as there wasn't a carpark at the new office.
We ended up getting a 2% raise plus the allowance taken away and most of the junior staff quitting the union as we were furious with them.
The_Blip@reddit
There was a pretty crap one at my last place. They rolled over on some things important to their members one year. Then the next year they made a huge stink about something that was doomed to fail because the company was financially struggling.
I think unions are what its members make of it. Poor communication between workers and union reps caused so many problems.
YodasGoldfish@reddit
Why wouldn't you have striked ?
jimmerjammer1@reddit
People would be better off paying for legal cover insurance.
LordSolstice@reddit
Similar thoughts here.
Every time I've dealt with a union, they were either no help whatsoever or they actively sided with the company.
WealthMain2987@reddit
People don't understand the benefits of a union. Look at America, that isn't the way the employment rights should be going.
Also, the media is owned by billionaires and they will continue to brain wash people.
f8rter@reddit
Yet average wages are much higher and the very flexible labour market means it’s much easier to get another job
If you want to make it easier to get a job make it easier to sack people
WealthMain2987@reddit
Your argument is far too simplistic and ignores how labour markets actually work. Higher wages don’t come from making it easy to sack people, they come from productivity, skills, and bargaining power, which is why countries like Denmark and Germany manage high wages alongside stronger worker protections. Saying it’s “easier to get another job” only holds when the economy is strong; in a downturn, flexibility just means people are fired faster and forced to compete for fewer roles.
Also it glosses over job quality, if firms can dismiss workers easily, they’re more likely to rely on insecure, low-paid contracts or zero hours which less likely to invest in training or long-term wage growth. So making it easier to sack people doesn’t reliably create better opportunities, it often just creates a more insecure workforce without guaranteeing more or better jobs.
Weak worker protection is exactly what big firms wants to get cheap labour.
f8rter@reddit
Making it easy to sack people makes employers more likely to take a chance on taking on additional staff.
They are more likely to give someone, who appears not to be ideal for the role, an opportunity to prove themselves if they would able to dismiss them if they didn’t work out in the role.
Making it more difficult to dismiss non performing employees makes it less likely that they will be taken on in the first place
WealthMain2987@reddit
Your argument hinges on the role of firing rules in hiring decisions. Firms hire mainly when there is demand, not simply because it’s easier to sack people. Recruitment is costly in both money and manager's time so employers still screen carefully rather and not just take a chance on weaker candidates.
You are also ignoring probation periods, which already let employers dismiss new hires relatively easily if they don’t work out. Stronger employee protections beyond that provide stability, encouraging training and long-term productivity rather than a disposable workforce.
Overall, making it easier to sack people doesn’t guarantee more hiring—it often just increases insecurity without creating better or more jobs.
f8rter@reddit
Unions are just focused on what is good in the short term for their members, they can’t see that in the long term their members would benefit from the business being competitive, successful and profitable.
Thats how they managed to destroy many industries in the 60s and 70s. Who remembers British Leyland ????
Look how the unions through their restrictive practices have seen Royal Mail lose massive market share to the likes DPD, Yodel and Amazon
Teembeau@reddit
This is rail. Roughly speaking, half the railways in this country lose money. It's a £12bn subsidy per year. And they sit there going "we want bigger pay rises". It ain't going to last. Someone is going to shut down a lot of the network.
f8rter@reddit
Rails can’t operate without subsidy as they have the massive problem that they need enough rolling stock to cope with “rush hour”, 80% of which then stands idle or empty for the rest of the day. Privatisation was a good way of minimising that subsidy
But the rail unions are the ridiculous legacy of the restrictive practices of the 1970s. Listening to Mick Lynch, Mick Whelan or Eddie Dempsey talk it’s like a parody character from the Two Ronnies.
Now they have been re-nationalised the needs of the unions, not the customer, will become preeminent again, just like the 1970s
Teembeau@reddit
You're not understanding the rail situation quite right.
There are parts of the network (like the Great Western Main Line) where you have massive demand at rush hour, with people spending big money on a ticket. Reading to London is basically full. They get some demand the rest of the time. These lines are profitable.
Then there are parts of the network like the Chippenham to Westbury train. Or Bath to Trowbridge. Where even at peak time, there are no more than about 5 people in a carriage. And the ticket price is almost nothing. £7. Now, do you think 15 people paying £7 each is going to pay for the driver and the fuel let alone all the infrastructure costs? These services should be buses, or even people driving.
f8rter@reddit
You can pick one area of the line to prove anything
Teembeau@reddit
What do you mean? There are lots of barely used rail lines in the UK. Nearly all of the demand is into and between cities. If you take the Great Western Main Line, it's mostly busy Reading to London, then Swindon to Reading, and it gets busy Bath to Bristol. Swindon to Bath is quiet (but probably stilll adds up).
This isn't some weird theory. This is a known fact. We know where the biggest subsidies for trains go.
f8rter@reddit
I’m not disagreeing with you
Asher-D@reddit
Every business with a union I've worked at was the more successful and more profitable one of the lot. Unions in my personal expiernce, make the employee expiernce better and makes whatever is being made better as well.
f8rter@reddit
Good for you
Shame that doesn’t work in the public sector
bow_down_whelp@reddit
In healthcare frontline workers would be bullied into the ground without unions
f8rter@reddit
Just shows how shit the pubic sector is
bow_down_whelp@reddit
I was talking a out healthcare, not the nhs
Beneficial_Effort595@reddit
It makes them more likely to be offshored though
f8rter@reddit
Indeed
Honda Nissan and Toyota were very successful manufacturers in the UK and good employers, with low union membership and a completely different relationship to the unions that were there, eliminating the confrontational adversarial relationships that destroyed most of the British car industry
spannerintworks@reddit
Children of a Thatcherite generation.
monochromatic_@reddit
Might sound silly, but I think the attitudes of some pro-union, pro-strikers don't help.
My husband's a teacher and the the amount of people's he's worked with who think pay-related striking is justified but also want to cash-in-hand private tutor or pay less tax blows my mind. Actively want to avoid paying tax and thinks tax burdens are too high, but also want higher salaries and good pensions funded by the tax system.
Additionally, these same people do not seem to appreciate the excellent pension packages they have available, especially compared against the legal minimum employer contributions many of us are lumped with. These pensions can set them up for great retirements with the right strategies in place. However, so much of the discussion seems to be focused on pay, rightly or wrongly.
It becomes a them vs. us. Public sector workers can seem quite oblivious to the dire private sector salary growth of recent years. As such, it becomes quite tiresome, especially when the rebuttal is just 'well become a teacher/ nurse/ doctor then'. Not sure there's enough jobs for us all to do it and many are not suited either!
Also my husband's union are borderline useless when needed and seem to waste his membership fees producing and distributing a magazine... Doesn't help with our view on certain ones.
-Xserco-@reddit
Because theyve been brainwashed into being against their own rights.
Flat out. Thanks to Maggie Thatcher and Tony Blair.
AttitudeSimilar9347@reddit
Because unions in the U.K. generally do not represent workers interests, they exploit workers for their leaders demented politics.
foofly@reddit
They either don't understand what a union is for, or they're threatened by them.
Cosmic_Womble@reddit
Because they usually get inconvenienced for a day or two, a shame but industrial action is sometimes called for.
NumeroRyan@reddit
When the Japanese go on strike, they just let people travel for free.
It makes sense for me, don’t charge for a train ticket, don’t inconvenience the public and still hit the owners and drive changes.
AdDramatic8568@reddit
This is kind of a myth, actually. Japanese people don't strike often, there was one particular city where bus drivers went on strike and kept driving without taking fares, but that was unusual and isn't the norm. It became kind of an urban legend.
Retail workers and others just refuse to work, dockworkers recently refused to haul or do anything until they got a wage increase.
Worldly_Turnip7042@reddit
This is illegal in the UK
killarotten@reddit
What is?
MikeyButch17@reddit
Providing a service without accepting payment. By UK Law, this counts as theft against your employer.
You can choose not to drive the bus. But if you choose to come to work but not accept payment, you’re breaking the law and will be charged with Theft.
Responsible_Drive380@reddit
Has anyone actually ever been charged with this in the last 60 years?
WGSMA@reddit
The Union would be charged as an institution
geekroick@reddit
This is the media's attitude towards unions. You never hear of the good things they do (like helping people keep their jobs), they just get the flak when it's last resort (ie strike) time...
ProofAssumption1092@reddit
Or we remember the devastating effects unions had on some of our biggest industry's. Our motor industry for example which was once the pride of the nation and offered exports globally, utterly destroyed by years of strikes.
OldLondon@reddit
So much this - oh the union did XYZ - no unions exist to carry out the will of their members, that’s literally their purpose
Outsidespace22@reddit
generally speaking monopolies aren’t great, they can use their powers to extract excess profits while reducing supply and quality of goods.
just as occurs with companies the same can occur with labour.
when unions get too powerful they can extract excess value for a limited minority while reducing quality. this forces up costs that are paid by all consumers.
all of society loses out while a limited minority of people within the union benefit.
there can be benefits to being in unions and counteracting unfair conditions. but they can also be pushed to far and extort unfair premiums from businesses/ governments and society
IntravenusDiMilo_Tap@reddit
Because strikes cause inconvenience, if people think they are worth more, they should apply for another job.
barnburner96@reddit
They think if they complain about strikes it will make them sound like their life/job is really important and that any mild inconvenience is a disaster to them
DogThatGoesBook@reddit
I’m not sure if the general public realises this so I’m going to state it in black and white. If you’re on strike you aren’t being paid ie your employer will withhold pay by taking strike days out your salary. It’s meant to be a last resort as the only leverage employees have against their employer is withholding their labour. The very real financial impact does mean that uptake (at least in HE ) is relatively low which sort of defeats the purpose. I’m seriously considering moving to a role in another industry because I’m fed up going on strike several days a year with nothing much to show for it all while being significantly underpaid
DogThatGoesBook@reddit
I forgot to mention the 1.2% “pay rise” from institutions pleading poverty and threatening redundancies while spending billions on estates projects
Intelligent-Bee-839@reddit
I have no problem with unions but they often schedule strikes to cause maximum disruption to the public, and this is what pisses people off.
Born_Price6063@reddit
my union is the reason my job is worth doing.
nothing but love and respect for them.
ICantBelieveItsNotEC@reddit
I find the Soviet LARPing embarrassingly cringeworthy. Calling each other "comrade", talking about "class solidarity", etc. I literally just want someone to help me negotiate my pay and have my back in a dispute; I don't want to sign up to a fucking glorious people's revolution.
quoole@reddit
I think two issues - the UK workplace market has seemed a bit of a race to the bottom, there are people working skilled private jobs on £30-40K and feel threatened that full time minimum wage is fast coming up on £30K at the current rate. People also think their job is more skilled than something like a train driver, and so when news reports say train drivers make £60K, they want a 5% pay rise (or whatever) - that's immediately threatening to some people. And they take it out on unions and striking workers, rather than pushing for a pay rise themselves.
Second, especially with public sector, there seems to be lots of demands for inflation parity rises - which on the face of it is fair, you shouldn't make less in real terms just because your money is now worth less. But the amounts public sector workers are asking for is usually far in excess of what private companies are offering in raises (and often far in excess of what private companies are able to do. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of big companies who could offer a raise and be fined but there are plenty of small companies who absolutely can not.) Public sector pay rises do essentially cost all of us more in the end.
zonked282@reddit
People think " well if they strike, and suddenly THAT job ( that they consider beneath them) is earning more than Me then what's to stop me just quitting and doing that instead?" And genuinely don't understand that will help them get a better deal as well
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
Yeah, a train driver on strike is really going to help a shop worker get a better deal. Obvs.
zonked282@reddit
Just pure coincidence that the stagnating of wages, rocketing corporate profiting and collapse in living standards correlates perfectly with the crackdown on unions 🤔
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
Not relevant to what you claimed, and not provable either.
AltruisticWishes@reddit
But it won't
zonked282@reddit
see, people genuinely think that
AltruisticWishes@reddit
Because it's obviously true. Everyone who is not in the union and has to buy what they're selling (or use their government services) is harmed by having to pay more for less (or at the very least, if it's a "free service," get shittier service.)
You're not being intellectually honest if you deny this
BulkyHulk78@reddit
Strikes can be annoying if the strike is affecting you, like when the trains went on strike, it didn't bother me because I decided to not use the trains at that time and I found alternate ways of getting where I was going. The people who complained about it were aiming there irritation at the strikers, when they should've been annoyed at the penny pinching, corner cutting bosses who wanted to change the system, to make more profit over the satisfaction of the customers.
michaelscottdundmiff@reddit
Unions are only there for their members, they want what is best for them. They don’t care about business or non members or disruption, they care about getting the best for their members. That is the point of them. Some people get angry at this because they either aren’t in a union or are in an industry that isn’t unionised and hasn’t felt the benefits of it. They think that what they have/experience is and should be the norm because that is how it works for me. Wage stagnation, rights and privileges eroded, loss of terms and conditions why would you want that? Join a union
Rude_Sheepherder_714@reddit
Have a ponder about why unions are now found mostly only in public sector jobs before viewing it in such binary terms.
UnCommonSense99@reddit
Because I was alive in the 1970's when UK trade unions had a lot of power, and they abused it to the detriment of the whole country. For more detail, google the winter of discontent, or when the power cuts of 1973 bought down the government, or stagflation.
Meanwhile in Germany they had powerful unions that worked for the long term interests of their members and the companies they worked for. Board representation, with far less strikes. Much better IMHO
daddywookie@reddit
When the trains don't run and you can't see a doctor so somebody else on double the money you are on can get a huge pay rise, it's hard to get excited.
There's no solidarity, everybody is just out to make for themselves. If all the unions came out to campaign against 40 hour weeks, below inflation pay rises and CEO bonuses then they'd get more public support.
Impossible_Theme_148@reddit
I think that's the heart of it
The problem that Unions have in the UK is that they largely succeeded in what their original aims were
There are limits to what employers can do, there are minimum standards which employers have to keep to
Like you suggested, there are a few things left that they could campaign on - but they just don't
What Unions have evolved into are organisations campaigning to keep the status quo
At best that's so professions like train drivers and doctors keep their pay advantage over other professions, at worst it's to call a stroke to stop someone getting sacked - no matter how many times they show up to work drunk
Teembeau@reddit
Unions were always out for themselves. That's not to besmirch them, but their purpose. They try to improve the conditions of members. They might try and spin a line that they're for the rest of us but it's nonsense.
At some point, the rail unions are just going to find it getting canned. Half the railways in the UK are a waste of money and we could save the country £12bn a year closing them.
Pezzza_@reddit
Surprised I had scroll so far down to see this comment. Sad state of affairs.
AccomplishedSafe8084@reddit
The billionaire-owned media tells them that it's just workers' greed and power-crazed union leaders on a trip. It's their 'trusted' media source so they believe it - and in many cases it's reinforced by voices (& bots?) online.
They don't seem to think about it beyond that.
Ochib@reddit
Sometimes it because their workplace doesn't recognise Trade unions, so they can't take or threaten industrial action for better pay and conditions.
Dear_Imagination5552@reddit
Because train drivers especially are incredibly well paid but they have an infinite money glitch to keep getting pay rises which then come out the pockets of commuting, working people who are mostly poorer. I understand why they do it, but they shouldn’t expect those funding their pay demands to be applauding
Aberfalman@reddit
Decades of anti-union propaganda has had the desired effect.
theartofnocode@reddit
For me a union only makes sense if you work in an industry where there is little competition, such as medicine, police etc.
It also seems as if unions don't serve their members, they serve themselves. For example, resident doctors salaries have fallen massively in real terms over the last 20 years, so they are no going on strike, but my question is, where were the unions who let it get into this mess for the last 20 years?
A competent union would have been negotiating a triple lock style pay deal for the next 20 years, but that might jeopardise the next 20 years of membership fees.
timeforknowledge@reddit
People on £50k+ and 40 days striking to get even more money while stopping me getting to work a <20k job with no holiday.
How am I meant to support that?
fussyfella@reddit
Adam Kay's song "London Underground" rather sums up what it feels like to be on the receiving end of industrial action and why so many hate them for it.
https://youtu.be/qqMSAbat1Vo?si=KooBATaUCt3h2Rhp
Inevitable-Height851@reddit
Neoliberalism screwed us, well and good. As some of the comments show here, mistrust of unions, so mistrust of others' motives simply because they're people you don't know, is now the default mindset (whereas a century ago, pretty much everyone agreed a union is a good thing, because they understood its structure, the way it's set up, automatically makes it beneficial to people, even if there a few bad apples within the structure). 2
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit
The idea of paying money which might not help me but will help someone else is something that right wing media and governments have challenged for two generations now.
Even though the money probably will help as employers need to respond to union requests made in response to employer demands.
The other problem is big companies also invest in advertising all the bad things they plan to do if they have to consider how their workforce could cooperate better.
Photinus_963@reddit
Because of decades of drip feed propaganda by the right wing printed press. Also, the weird thing that many British middle and working class people have where they identify more with the millionaire class than their next door neighbour. A hangover from feudalism.
TSC-99@reddit
The only person I know who hates unions at my workplace is my boss…
Thatcherist_Sybil@reddit
Train/tube drivers earn more than twice the national average wage for 4/5 the work hours. They have the ability to blackmail the country with holding core infrastructure hostage.
The alternative would be automating trains & tubes like in other European countries and cutting consumer prices by a huge chunk. The UK has the best paid train/tube drivers in the world, and the most expensive public transport network in London & on rail.
silentv0ices@reddit
Because the population is a bit thick and believe what the right wing press tell them.
Decalvare_Scriptor@reddit
These days the only strikes most people even hear about are transport and NHS strikes.
Transport strikes inconvenience them personally in many cases and there is a perception that the workers (at least once the tube) are paid well above average salary for a job that isn't considered particularly skilled. Hence, limited sympathy.
Health worker strikes are more complicated as they can both inconvenience people and even theoretically but lives at risk. However, I would say that there is often quite a lot of support because people see that the workers is extremely important, stressful and (in some cases) underpaid. Nurses in particular often get a lot of support for strikes.
So yeah, nurses striking to get paid half of what a tube driver gets paid get more support than tube drivers striking to get paid more than twice as much as the nurses who can't get to work because of tube strikes.
There are other strikes of course but they are usually either local (I don't know or care about binmen striking in Birmingham) or in an industry that doesn't impact people so they don't really have a strong opinion on them.
Low_Stress_9180@reddit
Brainwashed into thinking its "woeking class" so filthy common lower class thing.
The super rich really brainwashed Britain!
GhostRiders@reddit
It is mainly due to the Union strikes in the 70's. ( I'm old enough to remember)
I say the following as somebody who is a massive supporter of Unions and I can not state how important they are and that all people should join one.
The 70's was a very bad time for the British Economy. It was basically the crash of the post war boom. We had the double whammy of economic stagnation and high inflation.
On top of this huge advances in Automation began to change many Industries.
The unions had a choice, either work with companies are fight against them, they went with option 2.
You strikes left, right and centre, whilst you had some which were very valid, many were unnecessary and made what was already a difficult time many, worse.
For example we had the 3 day week due to strikes by coal and rail workers. Of course the knock on effect was disastrous for thousands business and other workers.
Again in many cases it was the Unions fighting the impossible fight.
Those years from the 70's left a very negative view of Unions as many people whilst not blaming them for the troubles the country faced, for many they made matters worse.
You then have the view that Unions protect people who basically take the piss and should be sacked. I can tell now that I have had direct experience of this and it is rife across councils.
Again I am a huge supporter of unions because the good they do significantly outweigh any negatives however there are many times where they really do not help themselves and considering we live in a country where the media is primarily right wing based who froth at mouth just at the thought of a story that shows Unions in a bad light, you think they would more mindful.
Teembeau@reddit
The thing with unions is people understanding what is reasonable and some don't. Like the railway workers want massive pay rises, even though there's declining rail revenue.
thesyldon@reddit
Didn't read all the comments, but the real reason is legacy media pushing a narrative. Far too many people get their opinion from billionaires who own the legacy media.
Teembeau@reddit
The Ultra wealthy generally took risks, made investments and worked hard.
Trade unions on strike are overwhelmingly public sector, not particularly working class any longer, often in jobs where they are already overpaid (e.g. railways).
Name a right we got because of unions.
After_Sock9081@reddit
Doing your fucking job is not contingent on what the BiLliOnAiretthh are doing.
LichenTheMood@reddit
It inconveniences people.
Honestly I think the laws need to change in the ways that people can strike. It's too black and white.
Serious-Top9613@reddit
I remember when lecturers at the university I was studying at decided to go on strike. You’d see them on campus with wearing bright pink t-shirts. Ended up being not as hilarious when we (the students) would only receive notification that our lectures were cancelled the morning of. Loved commuting from an hour or so away, just to be told in an email that they’d been cancelled. Especially when the lectures were scheduled for 9am 🙃
Beneficial_Effort595@reddit
I'm fine with unions in general but some like the BMA and their stupid doctors strikes are putting a bad name on them
Kharenis@reddit
I don't like the idea of legally enforced monopolies.
Jip_Jaap_Stam@reddit
Right wing propaganda
retiredyeti@reddit
They fucked the country in the 70s, please note i am a supporter of unions
cup-of-tea-76@reddit
I belong to a union, I’m a believer in union representation but where I work specifically a lot of the members (not all) are greedy ‘stick it to the man’ and totally unreasonable and unrealistic
For the past 3 years we have been offered extremely generous pay increases year on year and this was a new pragmatic and fair manager attempting to avoid long drawn out negotiations - we are already on the extremely good money and the working conditions and environment is a decent place. It has its fault but in terms of benefits it is very very generous
Every year a significant number (mainly old timers and brand new employees) just make the most ridiculous of demands, so ridiculous I can only imagine our union reps are embarrassed at times when they go in to table what the members are asking for
And every year it barely budged half a percent from the original offer on what was already a decent and fair offer
Obviously I’m purely speaking from my work environment, it’s not a general reflection
There is always a substantial
Responsible_Drive380@reddit
Can I ask what sector you work in?
cup-of-tea-76@reddit
I work in aerospace so represented by Unite
MrStilton@reddit
I work for a public sector QANGO and have had a similar experience with Unite.
Those conducting the negotiations became outraged about having to deal with the HR director, rather than the Chief Exec, then wanted to a strike because they were being "disrespected".
onionsofwar@reddit
Actually, most people don't. The thing is, most people aren't the ones writing the news articles or presenting the news. The voices you hear and the opinions that you hear are those of the people that don't like strikes.
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
A lot of it is no doubt down to propaganda from right-leaning newspapers, but the unions don't help themselves by making often extreme demands. Take resident doctors - asking for a nearly 30% pay rise which is itself based on the overly generous out-of-favour RPI measure of inflation, while they already earn far more than many can hope to attain in a lifetime.
To be clear, I'm not saying that I don't think they should get what they want or that they don't have legitimate grievances - and of course there's an element of 'shooting for the moon'. Also, I'm aware that 'other people have it worse' is not an argument against striving for better, but you asked why people hate unions and I'm sure you can see why stuff like that rankles with a lot of people.
Katharinemaddison@reddit
I don’t. Anyone who hasn’t, watch the film Pride.
coffeewalnut08@reddit
Anti-union propaganda is a helluva drug!
Unions used to be the main way in which people in the UK won and protected their employment rights. Back in the 70s and 80s, 50% of the UK workforce was part of a union. Today, it's just \~22%.
Rather than join a union these days, a lot of people would rather look for an easy scapegoat to blame all their problems at work and elsewhere on.
I would recommend reading up on the new Employment rights act, too: What will the Employment Rights Act mean for workers rights in the UK? | TUC as it enhances trade union links with workplaces.
abz_eng@reddit
Be glad you didn't have to live through it
The unions didn't look at what was happening in the wider world, they were concerned about protecting their piece of the pie at the expense of the next pie. Management was much better
It culminated in the winter of discontent where even the grave diggers went on strike
Examples
https://youtu.be/SsizoYrceOg?t=1323&si=8kYffYssuBgGbtz_
Another one I remember was about the docks and this old docker was going on about mechanisation and making sure they got their share so if an unloading gang was following a guy in a forklift then so be it. What happened was containerisation & the new terminals specifically didn't want old dock workers as were too set in their ways
Unions can be good but all too often they concentrate on protecting their piece of the pie not realising that the kitchen is falling down around them nor thinking it better to have smaller slice (1/5 rather than 1/3) of a much bigger pie (6ft Vs 12inch)
ControversyCaution2@reddit
Young doctors strike, they agree terms and then less than a year later are threatening to strike again
When the average struggling person sees this it’s hard to get on board
Asher-D@reddit
Well I hate strikes because then I can't access what I need/want. Ie. Transportation goes on strike, I now can't get to where I need to or I have to order somethING expensive like an uber.
Beyond it affecting people's daily lives negatively, I don't know why people would hate strikes. But the strike works by getting people angry and the employer meeting the strikers demands.
I wish there was a better way to get people better wages or benefits because strikes do suck.
belligerentbunno@reddit
unions have a distinct parallel with religions in this country in that the pseudo intellectual who are so keen to voraciously deride it all are entirely emotionally and factually ignorant of the why it exists, what it does, how it has come to be and what it means to anyone beyond their superficial and narcissistic perspective.
purple_spade@reddit
I know some people who will say they are the ones that chose to go into that profession, and if they don't like it then they would be free to pick another. Of course, I disagree with that.
0ystercatcher@reddit
The winter of discontent shape much of the boomers mind. When the county was in worst state than now and everyone was on strike.
CherryHavoc@reddit
I don't have a negative view of trade unions or industrial action, but a lot of my answer is in your question.
In my experience, industrial action causes huge inconvenience to normal working people. Meanwhile the rich owners are not using the services so aren't inconvenienced by it, and they're rich so won't even notice the difference if they stop making money for a few days.
GooseyDuckDuck@reddit
Because 90% of the time they are unjustifiable.
Sprice158@reddit
I think these days it’s because the media tells them to hate them
jc456_@reddit
I've given up on thinking the best of the average Brit.
It's because they're fucking stupid, that's why.
MasterOlive6060@reddit
“I can’t understand anyone’s perspective but my own therefore everyone’s stupid apart from me!!!”
Effective_Topic_4728@reddit
Isn't that basically every political argument of the last 10 years?
Simbooptendo@reddit
Dad, is that you?
Sea_Director_4439@reddit
That's about it, yeah
muaythaiguy155@reddit
This guys clearly so above everyone else with his absolutely superhuman intelligence and wisdom that no one else could possibly comprehend
Witty_Entry9120@reddit
It's just stakeholders analysis.
The binmen going on strike are doing it to better their own personal pay.
They don't get to decide how that impacts every other stakeholder though... they can't dictate that x amount is shuffled from a certain budget or certain buildings are sold to fund their demands.
So what happens is the weakest stakeholder, often the consumer, loses.
It's not class, its stakeholders exercising their power against each other to further their own interests and whenever any of them don't get their own way.....they cry.
LUNATIC_LEMMING@reddit
I've found that some unions seem to have no idea how to represent certain industries. Especially IT workers.
I've had multiple instances where I couldn't join a union as the shop floor union (unite) saw me as management, but the management union (prospect) saw me as shop floor.
And when I worked in schools as it support "I'm the union rep" was used as a threat against me so often by 2 different union reps, and again no union would represent me.
PigletAlert@reddit
My union doesn’t know what to do with my sorta “management” workforce either because if they help us, they’ll piss off the shop floor. So they just don’t do very much at all.
LUNATIC_LEMMING@reddit
had that a lot as well, couldn't have anything nice (flexi working) that the shop floor couldn't also have. but didn't get the nice things they did (free lunches, subsidised travel etc, pensions, on site parking)
Unite in particular have been consistantly bad at his in my experience. They all had such a 1970's white collar vs blue collar thing going on.
LordBoomDiddly@reddit
I think because the ones we mostly see making headlines are for industries who are already really well paid like Rail Drivers. Hard to have sympathy for people who earn like 70k a year asking for more money like they're hard done by, plus they then inconvenience the rest of us.
Automatic_Screen1064@reddit
Right wing media
TrashbatLondon@reddit
Thatcher fried people’s brains with various short term bribes.
Those people influenced their children to think similarly.
Aggravating-Day-2864@reddit
Because they fall for the media shite ...
PigletAlert@reddit
Honestly, I think it’s because the majority of very unionised workforces tend to offer services to the working public, many of whom don’t work in unionised industries. This means when they strike it’s other working people who are harmed and less so the employer. At the same time, these unionised workforces are often so well protected that their demands are often way beyond what the average worker could dream of. This garners little sympathy when the impact is that people lose a day’s pay/ annual leave, where they face an increased fine because their letter didn’t arrive or where they have to be on statutory sick pay longer because their appointment was cancelled.
Potential_Coast8072@reddit
Class consciousness has been eroded
MyDadsGlassesCase@reddit
Successive governments playing the "divide and conquer" card like we saw with the train drivers. The press and politicians were more desperate to point out "look, they want more money than you. Throw things at the.greedy bastards" rather than "we should fight for everyone trying to get a pay rise"
MathematicianOnly688@reddit
A lot of reasons. Many don’t understand their role.
Remember unions don’t give two hoots for unemployed of just working class people generally. They care about their members.
We now live in what is for all intents and purposes a 0% growth economy so every above inflation average pay rise for these people takes money from someone else because the pie ain’t getting any bigger.
Tube strikers get ALOT of attention as they generally seem to strike more often and are already extremely well remunerated. Their money comes from passengers tickets prices as TFL already makes a lot.
Advertise a tube drivers jobs EXTERNALLY for once with full pay and benefits for 24 hours and you’d get thousands of applications.
We may be one of the richest countries in the world by total GDP but per capita we’re lower mid table in the “western” world. London is so crucial to that prosperity it can’t be shut down because some grumpy tube drivers wanted a long weekend.
Therefore, we need to play to our strengths and allowing a tiny minority of people to hold what many regard as the most important city in the world hostage, can’t be allowed to continue.
Emergency services striking ability is severely restricted, with police having no right whatsoever, underground workers at the very least need some kind of service level agreement
PsychologicalDish430@reddit
And then the same people moan about poor pay and conditions.
AltruisticWishes@reddit
Because if you're not in the union, if it's something you have to buy, you're usually paying more for whatever the good/service is and are able to get it on a less convenient basis. Ex: transit
Sorry
SnoopyMcDogged@reddit
I’m for unions as it’s a buffer against corrupt employers but the problem is when the unions become corrupt themselves and the members can’t/won’t do anything about it. By all means secure that comfortable living wage by striking and stopping all work but when it starts getting greedy that’s when the problems start, see the many companies that couldn’t afford the large (and sudden) pay increases that had to close down back in the day.
The industry I work in doesn’t really have much in terms of unions members and it’s rare to come across someone who is but it’s very easy to move to another company if the conditions/pay are not good enough for you. While unions would be beneficial for the workers many companies would go bust over night if forced to pay everyone a proper wage(many are years behind pay increases) because the industry is very cutthroat if you don’t get the right kinda work.
JPMaybe@reddit
Fifty-odd years of Thatcherite propaganda
BungadinRidesAgain@reddit
Briefly, a lack of class consciousness.
Sea_Director_4439@reddit
The left has been demonised since day dot because capital must protect itself.
AffectionateJump7896@reddit
The perception, if we take tube drivers as the example, is that tube drivers striking means they get paid more and that means fares cost more.
Rising wages don't cause big corporates to make less money. They cause consumers to have to pay more, both through rising costs of those specific good and general inflation.
FunkyYoghurt@reddit
The only time I've disagreed with striking was when a local Outwood Academy went on strikes continuously because they wanted to change school finish to 3pm. They finish at 2:30pm. I've never known a secondary school that finishes before 3pm. That annoyed me because they started school at normal time. It was a "do you know how good you've got it? You work at any other school it's 3pm. What's the big deal?" I don't know why it bothered me so much. "We're changing school finish to 3"...ok? Like every school does?
trade-craft@reddit
Because they've been brainwashed to worship capital and the capitalist class.
They have been swimming in a sea of anti-working class, anti-worker, pro-billionaire pollution for decades.
They'd rather drag down their fellow workers than raise the average so we can all benefit.
thebusconductorhines@reddit
Crabs in a bucket
Perfectly_Other@reddit
For as long as i can remember Business, governments and large portions of the media have all worked together to undermine an delegitimise unions.
In addition we now live in much more self centred world than we used to and IMO people are much more entitled than they used to be.
So anything they see as either inconveniencing them (strikes affecting their access to a service) or giving someone else a perceived unfair advantage (union negotiated protections) is seen as a bad thing if they dont benefit from it.
Especially if they think it's costing them money because they're told that unions demand unfairly high wages
Bossman_Mike@reddit
I'm in a union. It is very much steered by old boomers who hector and 'whip' us into voting in ways that benefit them.
DrummingBlokeJoe@reddit
The UK media mind-conditioning op.
WiseBelt8935@reddit
It depends on the union. A union has the right to unilaterally stop sectors or cities. It is particularly a problem when the other side is the government, because they are disrupting people’s days and work in order to get better pay, while those same workers bear the cost.
There is virtually no downside, because the government can’t go under like a private sector employer (for example, shipbuilders)
ZookeepergameOk2759@reddit
The right wing media.
Gothywinelady@reddit
I’ve never had the opportunity to join a union. Admin in private sector. The warehouse staff and drivers had a unions, mainly for pay disputes. Used to hope that if the union enabled them to get 4%, there was hope for the rest of us. The union did look after the reps with free training and time off for union work.
LowarnFox@reddit
Anyone can join a union, if the one for the other staff won't accept you (some will if you work in the same industry) you can join a general union such as GMB.
There are very few people in the UK who can't join a union.
Bose82@reddit
Because god forbid someone gets a better deal at work than someone else in a different company in a totally different line of work. Most of the people who hate unions are bootlicking wannabe Tories. Thickos, basically.
whatmichaelsays@reddit
Most people think in the immediate term - we focus on the things that are pissing us off right now. And if something or someone is fucking your day up, that something/someone is going to be the lightening rod for your anger.
It's no different to being angry at the weather, or at the broken down car blocking the road.
Competitive_Pen7192@reddit
Getting annoyed about working people trying to get a little bit more but giving elites and big firms a free ride is pure ignorance.
Nip nip nip goes the crab...
Nervous_Condition_26@reddit
Nobody is immune to propaganda and nobody is as subtle and insidious with its propaganda as the British state/media
Affectionate-Fish681@reddit
British people don’t like to see other people gain something if they’re not getting it themselves
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