Counterpoint: Mint lags incredibly far behind everything else, so people who aren't tech savvy won't understand or care why they don't have access to features and software everyone else has. This happens all the time in the linux gaming subreddit.
saying mint is incredibly far behind is completely missing the point. It is not far behind, it is getting all the security updates and everything, it just doesn't get the newest mesa and kernel, because it tries to be as stable and reliable as possible and there is nothing wrong with that
The mesa is also not that far behind. It is on 25.2.8. Even Fedora used 25.2.7 till February, while mint was on 25.2.8
Does it really? On Ubuntu, you get security updates only for the latest Ubuntu version (not latest LTS) for some packages, unless you pay either with money or your data for Ubuntu pro. And since Mint uses Ubuntu LTS and uses some packages directly from Ubuntu LTS, no updates here either.
One example is VLC, https://ubuntu.com/security/CVE-2024-46461 it is patched on 24.04 only with Ubuntu pro, and Linux Mint 22 which uses Ubuntu 24.04 has the vulnerable 3.0.20 VLC version. (Linux Mint 21, which is still officially supported, is based on Ubuntu 22.04 which has VLC 3.0.16, with even more CVEs)
Well, the only bleeding edge distro is Debian Sid (which isn't made for regular users, as denoted on its site), and probably Gentoo in some use cases. All other rolling release distros, openSUSE, Arch, etc. only use latest stable versions and have extensive testing on a multitude of hardware and software configurations for every important package to ensure that it works and doesn't break anywhere.
Some distros may override this, like CachyOS, but their Limine Boot situation was one since their foundation, so it's still nice.
Lags behind in what way? This seems like a wildly incorrect generalization. Mint is not only up to date with Ubuntu (in its main edition), its LMDE branch gets backports for new features.
That is even without the separate Flathub or Backports repos enabled, which would bring the distro up to speed with the latest upstream versions.
Not having Wayland is a very, very big one that actually matters for the general non-technical userbase. Gaming on Cinnamon is a disaster and I have had nothing but a horrible time with it, the compositor refuses to toggle correctly in games so everything stutters and jitters like mad no matter what, since there's also no way to manually toggle it.
And tons of non-tech savvy people like games, so that feels like a pretty major problem.
That's great for you, but it doesn't do me or anyone else I know who has the same problem any good.
I have an AMD card and literally never did Cinnamon play nicely, and nobody ever gave me any information that helped with it in the dozens of hours I spent searching. And Cinnamon has the same issue for me on Fedora and Arch, too, so it's not like it was somehow a Mint kernel version issue or something.
Any time a game isn't running at exactly 60fps it eats shit, frame timing completely falls apart, it looks like 10fps visually but without as much input delay. Also happens on other X11 DEs when I don't have the compositor disabled, so it seems to be a compositing issue, even though I have Mint set up to "allegedly" unredirect when in fullscreen programs. Never works.
I switched to Fedora and Wayland DEs, never had a problem. Even back when I could get Cinnamon's Wayland session to work well enough to load up a game, it worked fine. But X11 is perpetually fucked and nothing fixes it.
So I'm not going to recommend people to use a distro where the only way I can guarantee they get usable performance is to use an experimental Wayland version of a DE, a Wayland version that I can't even manage to log in to half the time because it's still so undercooked.
In my opinion, this applies to any distro. I don’t know how many people I’ve heard complaining about Fedora, for example. I think a lot depends on the machine you’re using.
I understand you’ve had problems, but I wouldn’t generalise that to everyone.
Mint is a really stable and user-friendly system for most users.
It’s no coincidence that it’s always among the top-ranked most-used distros
Doesn't do anyone any good? Sure it does. It shows that there's plenty of people having no issues with Mint in comparison to whatever skill issue you're having with your setup.
"Skill issue" is when you install the Distro and then it doesn't work, sure. And the fact that other people have the same problem definitely means it's just a skill issue on my part. Great thinking cap you've got on there, dumbass.
Sure buddy, kernel 6.14 is definitely on par with 7.0. Even the previous release of Ubuntu ran the 6.17 kernel. And beyond just kernel versions, Mint is locked into using X11 for at least the next few years with just the bare bones of the Cinnamon Wayland session starting to enter experimental phase. Mint is incredibly slow on purpose, and that's okay. It fits a use case. But trying to grandstand on it with verifiably false claims is just a bad look.
I think it doesn't even install 6.14 after a fresh install, at least didn't for me last week on my laptop. Was 6.17 without me going in the kernel manager and changing it
Ah yes, the extremely advanced feature of "I want my new GPU to work". You still have to manually update the kernel version in Mint to get to a stable place for RDNA4 GPUs a year after their launch. And that will continue to be the case until the next main update this winter.
Supported, yes. It didn't work well until at least somewhere in the 6.16-6.17 range. And I wouldn't call year old GPUs bleeding edge. It's just current generation, as much as the nvidia 5000 series is at this point. Anyone buying a new pc with a GPU in it is likely to get something from one of those two lines.
To the idiots down here: one doesn't exclude the other...
Honestly sometimes I wonder if they are that stupid (to actually think the world is dealt in absolutes), or if they are just pretending to be that stupid just to troll/argue.
Implying that any non tech savvy would even think about installing any linux distribution, and considering that is linux that we're talking about (a lot terminal will have to be used even on mint, troubleshooting audio problems etc.), but if you exclude all of that, then yes, i guess that mint is good for non tech savy people?
I’m tech savvy and use LMDE, my computer is the backbone of my households remote media streaming for movies/shows and music. It’s also the main Samba file share server and is just fine as a desktop. Ohhh, you meant just for gaming or ricing out a tiling wm, right? Just cos someone values uptime and stability in their distro doesn’t mean they’re not tech savvy.
It may not be targeted at people who want to customize, but the reality is most will do a little tweaking in the theming department. I think Linux Mint should set the default icon pack to Papirus to add some pop to the OS but other than that I wouldn't change anything else.
If you're asking if Mint has Wayland support then Mint has had Wayland support for its Cinnamon desktop for a few years. It's hasn't been "still X11" for a long time.
However, if you're asking if it is still possible to run X11 sessions, yes, it's still available as a backup.
If you're asking if Mint has Wayland support then Mint has had Wayland support for its Cinnamon desktop for a few years. It's hasn't been "still X11" for a long time.
Cinnamon's Wayland session doesn't even manage to get to the desktop anymore for me, and last time it did it was buggy as hell and shit crashed all the time. Saying "Mint has Wayland support" is beyond a stretch.
They've been saying Wayland won't be ready for 23, I believe. Not even sure if they're aiming for 24, at this point, either, which is kind of baffling. Even for a "slow and steady" distro, being several years behind Debian, of all distros, on Wayland is nuts.
From what I have read it does seem like Wayland should be out of experimental with 23, but not the standard option when you log in
It is also not behind Debian, you are comparing DEs with Distros. Debian won't have Cinnamon with wayland either, neither will debian have a good version of Xfce with wayland support and so on.
What you mean is KDE and GNOME, which have wayland support on debian, but so do they on mint, although it isn't recommended to install them on Mint
It is also not behind Debian, you are comparing DEs with Distros
I am, but my point is that Debian, a distro that's famous for being extremely slow moving and conservative with its releases, and not really meant to be an "easy to use, ready to go" desktop OS like Mint is, has fully functional Wayland DEs as default, while Mint has none.
Which is why I don't recommend Mint to people anymore, it's getting to a point where Cinnamon's slow development is holding the distro back in ways that can meaningfully affect the average user, relative to distros that use more modern DEs like GNOME and KDE.
X11 can be as much of a pro as a con. There are some programs only working on X11, even if you use XWayland, they are rare, but they do exist from what I know
and I would love for Mint to ship with it, but neither Cinnamon nor Mint were made to push the newest technology, and if you ask me you see DEs that re just like Cinnamon there to also slowly roll out Wayland support at the moment, like Xfce and LXQT. From personal testing I also have to say, that Cinnamon Wayland works better than Xfce and LXQT Wayland
Personally I also have to say, that I rather have Mint focus on a few DEs and not stretch their funding and devs too thin over multiple projects, even if Wayland would be the last thing that is missing for me to make it a no-brainer on things like my laptop
I would also have to argue, that X11 vs Wayland has less importance than one would think. A user with 2x 1080p screens would be fine with X11, unless different refresh rates. HDR is somewhat relevant at this point, but also more for enthusiasts, because normal user don't really put the money into a screen that has HDR support from my experience. VRR can be important, depending on the setup, games and hardware
So for a regular user with maybe one screen Mint is perfect.
And even if you don't want to use mint there, what would you really recommend for new people? Fedora, CachyOS and so are too complicated for a regular user and something like Bazzite has the problem of immutable. And this is coming from someone who daily drives CachyOS and daily drove the other two for months. PikaOS could be interesting, but rolling release isn't great for a new user or a regular user in general. Zorin might be an option, not sure haven't tested it in-depth. Ultramarine shipped Mesa that was meant for Devs and not regular user. Debian isn't great for a regular user, especially if they need backports. OpenSUSE Tumbleweed defaults to X11 on KDE at least. Ubuntu isn't really beloved at the moment, but would be an option, especially kubuntu, but that also only if people are fine with snaps or are willing to turn them off
I also asked my best friend who is very not techy a few months ago. She said she would rather have something that updates when it is ready and doesn't care much about the newest software, as long as it works
I would also have to argue, that X11 vs Wayland has less importance than one would think. A user with 2x 1080p screens would be fine with X11, unless different refresh rates.
And multiple refresh rates is increasingly common with how cheap high refresh monitors are now. Tons of people have a 144hz primary and 60hz secondary, for example. Or they have 4k screens and want good fractional scaling, which as far as I know is borderline nonexistent on X11 DEs.
And even if you don't want to use mint there, what would you really recommend for new people?
Fedora is very easy to set up at this point, codecs and Nvidia driver repos can be enabled at first startup and then installed from GNOME Software or KDE Discover at this point, without needing the terminal, so IMO it's perfectly fine to recommend to new users. It's not like Windows comes with Nvidia drivers preinstalled, either, so I don't feel like that's a big enough obstacle to be a problem.
I do agree Cachy is a bad option just because it's still basically just Arch, and as reliable as Arch is these days, it still is going to be way more likely to break than something non-rolling.
If Ubuntu shipped Flatpak alongside Snap and integrated them into the app center I would say that would be a great option, as well, but unfortunately it doesn't, and I feel like Flatpak is too large of a software base to require manually setting up and integrating for new users.
I also asked my best friend who is very not techy a few months ago. She said she would rather have something that updates when it is ready and doesn't care much about the newest software, as long as it works
That's my problem, though. I've run into plenty of situations where X11 causes me problems, and I'm not on any exotic hardware. Few year old AMD GPU, two 1440p monitors that are both 60hz, etc.
For example, I had issues with Cinnamon, where the compositor unredirection just didn't work no matter what I did, which made gaming functionally impossible, and I know other people who have had the same problem and never found a solution even after a ton of googling and messing with settings.
That alone disqualifies it from me recommending Mint or any other X11-only distro, frankly. On Fedora I get Wayland DEs, and thus never have to worry about the compositor deciding it's going to ruin my day, which is how it should be.
either Cinnamon nor Mint were made to push the newest technology
And that's fine if they want it to be that way, but it does mean that I'm not going to recommend it to 99% of people, because most of the people I know do want the modern conveniences that come with modern DEs and distros that keep more up to date.
From personal testing I also have to say, that Cinnamon Wayland works better than Xfce and LXQT Wayland
It currently can't even get to the desktop on my system, on either Fedora or Mint, and last time it could a lot of programs and the desktop were very buggy, so I guess I've just got the short end of the stick, but it's definitely not anywhere near usable yet in my case
I hope it is for 23, I would love if Mint was a realistic option for me and that I could recommend to others, but it just isn't at the moment, I feel like it's stuck in an awkward spot because the bigger distros and DEs are so well made and moving so quickly these days.
Yeah VRR and different refresh rates are a big problem I see too
Fedora is not easy to setup. It is easy, if you know what you are doing and are somewhat familiar with Linux / Fedora. But if you are a normal person or beginner it is something people just won't do. They won't know what rpm fusion is or why stuff doesn't work. While mint is just plug and go
And also agreed, that Windows is terrible in terms of driver management, but it is a different workflow, and Linux mint and a good amount of other distros do it way easier than Fedora. I would personally also not recommend GNOME to a windows user, that could just be too much difference at that point
If Ubuntu shipped Flatpak alongside Snap and integrated them into the app center I would say that would be a great option, as well, but unfortunately it doesn't, and I feel like Flatpak is too large of a software base to require manually setting up and integrating for new users.
yup agreed. The integration of snaps on ubuntu is also somewhat problematic in my eyes, but that is less of a problem for the end user
That's my problem, though. I've run into plenty of situations where X11 causes me problems, and I'm not on any exotic hardware. Few year old AMD GPU, two 1440p monitors that are both 60hz, etc.
Yeah honestly I don't think it is perfect either. I also had some games that wouldn't work on Mint, but without any changes on CachyOS, but overall the workflow, the reliability and how easy it is to use might be more important for the end user, although I do agree, that Cinnamon wayland can't come early enough
It currently can't even get to the desktop on my system, on either Fedora or Mint, and last time it could a lot of programs and the desktop were very buggy, so I guess I've just got the short end of the stick, but it's definitely not anywhere near usable yet in my case
To that I can say, that I just started into it on my laptop and Wayland runs fine, the problem I have is resolution scaling though. I need 2x resolution scaling (2880x1920). Default apps are crisp and fine, same with Discord, but firefox and mission center is blurry. But yeah I had the same issue of not getting into it on Xfce 4.20 and LXQT
I personally think X11 is fine for now at least, I prefer wayland, but X11 is fine. Mint people are working on Wayland, and I think that is the most important part and that it is better for them to not rush it too much, so they can actually put out a good product. We see what happens when a Distro focuses too much on the DE and ship it partially with Pop_OS already and how much criticism they get
Woodpecker-Visible@reddit
Mint was great starting point for me. But in the end to simplistic and conservetive.
Maleficent-One1712@reddit
Mint is perfect for people that are not tech savvy.
GlutenFreeToaster@reddit
Counterpoint: Mint lags incredibly far behind everything else, so people who aren't tech savvy won't understand or care why they don't have access to features and software everyone else has. This happens all the time in the linux gaming subreddit.
NDCyber@reddit
saying mint is incredibly far behind is completely missing the point. It is not far behind, it is getting all the security updates and everything, it just doesn't get the newest mesa and kernel, because it tries to be as stable and reliable as possible and there is nothing wrong with that
The mesa is also not that far behind. It is on 25.2.8. Even Fedora used 25.2.7 till February, while mint was on 25.2.8
shroddy@reddit
Does it really? On Ubuntu, you get security updates only for the latest Ubuntu version (not latest LTS) for some packages, unless you pay either with money or your data for Ubuntu pro. And since Mint uses Ubuntu LTS and uses some packages directly from Ubuntu LTS, no updates here either.
One example is VLC, https://ubuntu.com/security/CVE-2024-46461 it is patched on 24.04 only with Ubuntu pro, and Linux Mint 22 which uses Ubuntu 24.04 has the vulnerable 3.0.20 VLC version. (Linux Mint 21, which is still officially supported, is based on Ubuntu 22.04 which has VLC 3.0.16, with even more CVEs)
Rizal95@reddit
Mint also uses debian
shroddy@reddit
Yes, there is also a Debian Edition, I think that is more secure than the normal Ubuntu based versions.
Rizal95@reddit
Btw it's really fucked up how ubuntu gatekeeps updates on a pro version. I didn't know that.
Pejorativez@reddit
X11
Last time I tried mint it couldnt even handle multiple monitors or fractional scaling...
It just broke down completely
NDCyber@reddit
X11 is also still widely used and just being phased out / replaced. Which mint also does
BortGreen@reddit
I don't think people who aren't tech savvy should use bleeding edge distros either
NotQuiteLoona@reddit
Well, the only bleeding edge distro is Debian Sid (which isn't made for regular users, as denoted on its site), and probably Gentoo in some use cases. All other rolling release distros, openSUSE, Arch, etc. only use latest stable versions and have extensive testing on a multitude of hardware and software configurations for every important package to ensure that it works and doesn't break anywhere.
Some distros may override this, like CachyOS, but their Limine Boot situation was one since their foundation, so it's still nice.
daemonpenguin@reddit
Lags behind in what way? This seems like a wildly incorrect generalization. Mint is not only up to date with Ubuntu (in its main edition), its LMDE branch gets backports for new features.
That is even without the separate Flathub or Backports repos enabled, which would bring the distro up to speed with the latest upstream versions.
OffsetXV@reddit
Not having Wayland is a very, very big one that actually matters for the general non-technical userbase. Gaming on Cinnamon is a disaster and I have had nothing but a horrible time with it, the compositor refuses to toggle correctly in games so everything stutters and jitters like mad no matter what, since there's also no way to manually toggle it.
And tons of non-tech savvy people like games, so that feels like a pretty major problem.
placebo_button@reddit
Been gaming on Mint for years without issues using Nvidia drivers with a triple monitor setup.
OffsetXV@reddit
That's great for you, but it doesn't do me or anyone else I know who has the same problem any good.
I have an AMD card and literally never did Cinnamon play nicely, and nobody ever gave me any information that helped with it in the dozens of hours I spent searching. And Cinnamon has the same issue for me on Fedora and Arch, too, so it's not like it was somehow a Mint kernel version issue or something.
Any time a game isn't running at exactly 60fps it eats shit, frame timing completely falls apart, it looks like 10fps visually but without as much input delay. Also happens on other X11 DEs when I don't have the compositor disabled, so it seems to be a compositing issue, even though I have Mint set up to "allegedly" unredirect when in fullscreen programs. Never works.
I switched to Fedora and Wayland DEs, never had a problem. Even back when I could get Cinnamon's Wayland session to work well enough to load up a game, it worked fine. But X11 is perpetually fucked and nothing fixes it.
So I'm not going to recommend people to use a distro where the only way I can guarantee they get usable performance is to use an experimental Wayland version of a DE, a Wayland version that I can't even manage to log in to half the time because it's still so undercooked.
Dazzling-Paper9781@reddit
In my opinion, this applies to any distro. I don’t know how many people I’ve heard complaining about Fedora, for example. I think a lot depends on the machine you’re using. I understand you’ve had problems, but I wouldn’t generalise that to everyone. Mint is a really stable and user-friendly system for most users. It’s no coincidence that it’s always among the top-ranked most-used distros
placebo_button@reddit
Doesn't do anyone any good? Sure it does. It shows that there's plenty of people having no issues with Mint in comparison to whatever skill issue you're having with your setup.
OffsetXV@reddit
"Skill issue" is when you install the Distro and then it doesn't work, sure. And the fact that other people have the same problem definitely means it's just a skill issue on my part. Great thinking cap you've got on there, dumbass.
placebo_button@reddit
100% skill issue. Also whining about it on reddit instead of coming up with a solution and helping others definitely makes YOU the dumbass lol
Windows gaming sounds more like your speed. You can just point and click!
GlutenFreeToaster@reddit
Truly legendary redditor skills you have there
placebo_button@reddit
Says the moron filling up the whole thread with useless comments that provide no help or proof hahaha
GlutenFreeToaster@reddit
Sure buddy, kernel 6.14 is definitely on par with 7.0. Even the previous release of Ubuntu ran the 6.17 kernel. And beyond just kernel versions, Mint is locked into using X11 for at least the next few years with just the bare bones of the Cinnamon Wayland session starting to enter experimental phase. Mint is incredibly slow on purpose, and that's okay. It fits a use case. But trying to grandstand on it with verifiably false claims is just a bad look.
NDCyber@reddit
Mint 22.3 is on Kernel 6.17
GlutenFreeToaster@reddit
According to the actual Mint website, the current 22.3 version ships kernel 6.14. If that updates after install then cool, I'm genuinely surprised.
NDCyber@reddit
I think it doesn't even install 6.14 after a fresh install, at least didn't for me last week on my laptop. Was 6.17 without me going in the kernel manager and changing it
GlutenFreeToaster@reddit
I just ran a test on an old laptop and it does install 6.14 by default, but running standard updates brings it up to 6.17.
NDCyber@reddit
Ok that is good to know, guess I updated too fast before seeing it, guess the iso is just still on 6.14, but I would say that is fine personally
KnowZeroX@reddit
I'd argue those people who seek advanced features of gaming in themselves are above average and more tech savvy.
GlutenFreeToaster@reddit
Ah yes, the extremely advanced feature of "I want my new GPU to work". You still have to manually update the kernel version in Mint to get to a stable place for RDNA4 GPUs a year after their launch. And that will continue to be the case until the next main update this winter.
KnowZeroX@reddit
Yes, because the average user likely isn't buying a bleeding edge gpu.
That said, Mint should have supported it ever since 22.3 which came with 6.14
GlutenFreeToaster@reddit
Supported, yes. It didn't work well until at least somewhere in the 6.16-6.17 range. And I wouldn't call year old GPUs bleeding edge. It's just current generation, as much as the nvidia 5000 series is at this point. Anyone buying a new pc with a GPU in it is likely to get something from one of those two lines.
isabellium@reddit
Honestly sometimes I wonder if they are that stupid (to actually think the world is dealt in absolutes), or if they are just pretending to be that stupid just to troll/argue.
Maleficent-One1712@reddit
It blows my mind that so many people think like that, I really didn't expect those angry comments.
Rizal95@reddit
Implying that any non tech savvy would even think about installing any linux distribution, and considering that is linux that we're talking about (a lot terminal will have to be used even on mint, troubleshooting audio problems etc.), but if you exclude all of that, then yes, i guess that mint is good for non tech savy people?
pseudonym-161@reddit
I’m tech savvy and use LMDE, my computer is the backbone of my households remote media streaming for movies/shows and music. It’s also the main Samba file share server and is just fine as a desktop. Ohhh, you meant just for gaming or ricing out a tiling wm, right? Just cos someone values uptime and stability in their distro doesn’t mean they’re not tech savvy.
Maleficent-One1712@reddit
Dude, the thought never occurred to you that one doesn't have to exclude the other? Nobody ever said it's not suitable for savvy people.
pseudonym-161@reddit
My bad, just so used to people on here not realizing even the most user friendly distros are still quite powerful for a lot use cases.
GladCheetah6048@reddit
It's perfect for me and I'm a developer & sys admin
placebo_button@reddit
Apparently Arch is for people with brain damage.
KeyboardG@reddit
Or people who just want to get work done.
placebo_button@reddit
Yeah because you can't drop into a shell and do literally everything on Mint you can do on other distros? What an idiotic comment.
clearlybreghldalzee@reddit
Try running a windows game from 2003 and see your desktop disappear, mouse locked, screen flicker. Non of this happens on ubuntu, debian or fedora.
Woodpecker-Visible@reddit
Or mabie i wanted wayland or you know, more modern looking. What an idiotic comment...
placebo_button@reddit
Mint literally does offer Wayland. And modern looking meaning what? Looking like MacOS? Dumb comments keep getting dumber LOL
Woodpecker-Visible@reddit
Your stupitidy has no bounds. LOL.
placebo_button@reddit
Says the genius that can't even spell properly LOLOLOLOLOL
Coyann@reddit
Mint is so good functionality-wise but they should really move away from the early 2000s graphics.
Nexis4Jersey@reddit
I mean its very customizable you could make it look like Mate , KDE with the custom themes and extensions they provide.
Coyann@reddit
Mint is not targeted towards people who customize their DE. The out-of-the-box design is what counts.
Nexis4Jersey@reddit
It may not be targeted at people who want to customize, but the reality is most will do a little tweaking in the theming department. I think Linux Mint should set the default icon pack to Papirus to add some pop to the OS but other than that I wouldn't change anything else.
Several-Delay180@reddit
some of you all are mad at cinnamon not mint
Maleficent-One1712@reddit
Still X11?
Lower-Limit3695@reddit
Dang they're slower than Debian. Debian made the switch back in 2019.
computer-machine@reddit
What DE's are Debian developing?
daemonpenguin@reddit
If you're asking if Mint has Wayland support then Mint has had Wayland support for its Cinnamon desktop for a few years. It's hasn't been "still X11" for a long time.
However, if you're asking if it is still possible to run X11 sessions, yes, it's still available as a backup.
OffsetXV@reddit
Cinnamon's Wayland session doesn't even manage to get to the desktop anymore for me, and last time it did it was buggy as hell and shit crashed all the time. Saying "Mint has Wayland support" is beyond a stretch.
Anima_Watcher08@reddit
Likely because you're using an NVIDIA GPU. Intel i-GPUs and NVIDIA cards have worked okay from my experience
OffsetXV@reddit
Except that I'm not using an Nvidia GPU
mrtruthiness@reddit
It was first introduced as an experimental release in Jan 2024.
It is still described as "experimental" and is not the default session and is not expected to be the default session until 2028.
It's not just the "backup", it's the default session.
KeyboardG@reddit
Cinnamon has not been feature complete and stable on Wayland for everyday users until recently.
NDCyber@reddit
For now yes, I think they plan to have Wayland ready for Mint 23, which would be big news for me and how well Mint would fit my laptop
OffsetXV@reddit
They've been saying Wayland won't be ready for 23, I believe. Not even sure if they're aiming for 24, at this point, either, which is kind of baffling. Even for a "slow and steady" distro, being several years behind Debian, of all distros, on Wayland is nuts.
NDCyber@reddit
From what I have read it does seem like Wayland should be out of experimental with 23, but not the standard option when you log in
It is also not behind Debian, you are comparing DEs with Distros. Debian won't have Cinnamon with wayland either, neither will debian have a good version of Xfce with wayland support and so on.
What you mean is KDE and GNOME, which have wayland support on debian, but so do they on mint, although it isn't recommended to install them on Mint
OffsetXV@reddit
I am, but my point is that Debian, a distro that's famous for being extremely slow moving and conservative with its releases, and not really meant to be an "easy to use, ready to go" desktop OS like Mint is, has fully functional Wayland DEs as default, while Mint has none.
Which is why I don't recommend Mint to people anymore, it's getting to a point where Cinnamon's slow development is holding the distro back in ways that can meaningfully affect the average user, relative to distros that use more modern DEs like GNOME and KDE.
NDCyber@reddit
X11 can be as much of a pro as a con. There are some programs only working on X11, even if you use XWayland, they are rare, but they do exist from what I know
and I would love for Mint to ship with it, but neither Cinnamon nor Mint were made to push the newest technology, and if you ask me you see DEs that re just like Cinnamon there to also slowly roll out Wayland support at the moment, like Xfce and LXQT. From personal testing I also have to say, that Cinnamon Wayland works better than Xfce and LXQT Wayland
Personally I also have to say, that I rather have Mint focus on a few DEs and not stretch their funding and devs too thin over multiple projects, even if Wayland would be the last thing that is missing for me to make it a no-brainer on things like my laptop
I would also have to argue, that X11 vs Wayland has less importance than one would think. A user with 2x 1080p screens would be fine with X11, unless different refresh rates. HDR is somewhat relevant at this point, but also more for enthusiasts, because normal user don't really put the money into a screen that has HDR support from my experience. VRR can be important, depending on the setup, games and hardware
So for a regular user with maybe one screen Mint is perfect.
And even if you don't want to use mint there, what would you really recommend for new people? Fedora, CachyOS and so are too complicated for a regular user and something like Bazzite has the problem of immutable. And this is coming from someone who daily drives CachyOS and daily drove the other two for months. PikaOS could be interesting, but rolling release isn't great for a new user or a regular user in general. Zorin might be an option, not sure haven't tested it in-depth. Ultramarine shipped Mesa that was meant for Devs and not regular user. Debian isn't great for a regular user, especially if they need backports. OpenSUSE Tumbleweed defaults to X11 on KDE at least. Ubuntu isn't really beloved at the moment, but would be an option, especially kubuntu, but that also only if people are fine with snaps or are willing to turn them off
I also asked my best friend who is very not techy a few months ago. She said she would rather have something that updates when it is ready and doesn't care much about the newest software, as long as it works
OffsetXV@reddit
And multiple refresh rates is increasingly common with how cheap high refresh monitors are now. Tons of people have a 144hz primary and 60hz secondary, for example. Or they have 4k screens and want good fractional scaling, which as far as I know is borderline nonexistent on X11 DEs.
Fedora is very easy to set up at this point, codecs and Nvidia driver repos can be enabled at first startup and then installed from GNOME Software or KDE Discover at this point, without needing the terminal, so IMO it's perfectly fine to recommend to new users. It's not like Windows comes with Nvidia drivers preinstalled, either, so I don't feel like that's a big enough obstacle to be a problem.
I do agree Cachy is a bad option just because it's still basically just Arch, and as reliable as Arch is these days, it still is going to be way more likely to break than something non-rolling.
If Ubuntu shipped Flatpak alongside Snap and integrated them into the app center I would say that would be a great option, as well, but unfortunately it doesn't, and I feel like Flatpak is too large of a software base to require manually setting up and integrating for new users.
That's my problem, though. I've run into plenty of situations where X11 causes me problems, and I'm not on any exotic hardware. Few year old AMD GPU, two 1440p monitors that are both 60hz, etc.
For example, I had issues with Cinnamon, where the compositor unredirection just didn't work no matter what I did, which made gaming functionally impossible, and I know other people who have had the same problem and never found a solution even after a ton of googling and messing with settings.
That alone disqualifies it from me recommending Mint or any other X11-only distro, frankly. On Fedora I get Wayland DEs, and thus never have to worry about the compositor deciding it's going to ruin my day, which is how it should be.
And that's fine if they want it to be that way, but it does mean that I'm not going to recommend it to 99% of people, because most of the people I know do want the modern conveniences that come with modern DEs and distros that keep more up to date.
It currently can't even get to the desktop on my system, on either Fedora or Mint, and last time it could a lot of programs and the desktop were very buggy, so I guess I've just got the short end of the stick, but it's definitely not anywhere near usable yet in my case
I hope it is for 23, I would love if Mint was a realistic option for me and that I could recommend to others, but it just isn't at the moment, I feel like it's stuck in an awkward spot because the bigger distros and DEs are so well made and moving so quickly these days.
NDCyber@reddit
Yeah VRR and different refresh rates are a big problem I see too
Fedora is not easy to setup. It is easy, if you know what you are doing and are somewhat familiar with Linux / Fedora. But if you are a normal person or beginner it is something people just won't do. They won't know what rpm fusion is or why stuff doesn't work. While mint is just plug and go
And also agreed, that Windows is terrible in terms of driver management, but it is a different workflow, and Linux mint and a good amount of other distros do it way easier than Fedora. I would personally also not recommend GNOME to a windows user, that could just be too much difference at that point
yup agreed. The integration of snaps on ubuntu is also somewhat problematic in my eyes, but that is less of a problem for the end user
Yeah honestly I don't think it is perfect either. I also had some games that wouldn't work on Mint, but without any changes on CachyOS, but overall the workflow, the reliability and how easy it is to use might be more important for the end user, although I do agree, that Cinnamon wayland can't come early enough
To that I can say, that I just started into it on my laptop and Wayland runs fine, the problem I have is resolution scaling though. I need 2x resolution scaling (2880x1920). Default apps are crisp and fine, same with Discord, but firefox and mission center is blurry. But yeah I had the same issue of not getting into it on Xfce 4.20 and LXQT
I personally think X11 is fine for now at least, I prefer wayland, but X11 is fine. Mint people are working on Wayland, and I think that is the most important part and that it is better for them to not rush it too much, so they can actually put out a good product. We see what happens when a Distro focuses too much on the DE and ship it partially with Pop_OS already and how much criticism they get