Ottoman and Roman empire
Posted by ulasxd@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 94 comments
What do you genuinely think about the different interpretations of these two geographically similar empires? I assume it’s mostly because of their state religion
SpiritedBottle6739@reddit
Yeah as a Serbian I think Ottomans also commited genocide in the Balkans ... but we are not ready to talk about that still I guess. :)
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
Buddy it is the Balkan. Everyone genocided everyone else. Feel free to read the Carnegie report.
SpiritedBottle6739@reddit
Yup, yup agreed, the question however was about Ottoman vs Roman empire so I just wanted to add a point there that Ottomans were not as lovely as portrayed in the image posted by op.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
That is beyond the point of OP. The Romans were by far more brutal and destructive than the Ottomans. Otherwise both Empires are extremally similar. Yet the more brutal one gets praised into heavens, while the latter is demonized.
You can see this behaviour even in the comments. People straight up make shit up. "The Ottomans kidnapped babies", "they built nothing" -> utterly fabricated.
SpiritedBottle6739@reddit
This is on point with the discussion that has been started here. We do have records of Ottomans taking firstborns and taking them back to Ottoman empire to be raised as Ottomans and brought back to Balkans to commit atrocities against their own families and nation. I don't agree with they never built anything narrative.
But when comparing Romans and Ottomans in the Balkans both were horrible.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
The devshirme had nothing to do with specifically taking the firstborn. They took 1 among 40 children in a village. You guys are also blowing this out of proportion. It affected a tiny fraction of the christian population. Not that you cant and shouldnt criticize it, but the entire thing ended in the 1640th. There is an entire \~250 years after that, which is brushed off.
And if this is your "main argument" in a comparision to the Roman Empire, then I understand you even less. The millions of slaves, the genocides and the human meat grinders for Roman emperors were better because?
You made that up. The Janissaries were stationed in Constantinople. They were not stationed, where they originated from. They were also self-aware and many were known to be great benefactors of their people. E.g.:
"Although Sokullu became a Muslim, he remembered his Serbian Orthodox roots and family. He persuaded the Sultan to restore the Serbian Patriarchate of Peć as a "gesture of reconciliation".^([6])"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokollu_Mehmed_Pasha
This was an essential step in the preservation of the serbian church.
Scale buddy. The Romans were by far more destructive. Many of Mimar Sinan's work are on the Balkan. The Ottomans built and repopulated cities on the Balkan. They built public buildings all across the Balkan. A small portion of it is left, because most of the otttoman stuff was deliberately purged out of existence by orthodox nationalists.
And in a time of war and destruction, the Balkan stayed relatively speaking peaceful for centuries. Again: This doesnt mean that there is nothing to criticize or that you should be thankful, but there is more to the entire topic than just "they shit".
SpiritedBottle6739@reddit
Oh boiiii, I could rant for years about the things that are wrong here. Like has your history thought you about Cele Kula in Nis with inbuilt Serbians skulls that can be visited and still stands today brought to us by Ottomans :) The image posted shows Ottomans as nice friendly people who were nice to their slaves. That is simply not true. At no point I sad Romans were cool, I am simply debating the the image above is misleading. Sorry for all the butthurt I've caused you "buddy" :D
Ok_Tie_7564@reddit
Or Dimitrije "Mita" Tucović, or Leon Trotsky. https://links.org.au/node/296
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Dude, in the Balkans every nation tried to do a genocide. Serbian government tried it very recently as well. We can talk about anything u want 🫶🏻
SpiritedBottle6739@reddit
I am not here to defend balkans, just adding perspective, Ottomans have been taking firstborns from Balkans taking them back to their empire giving them fake Ottoman backgrounds and sending them back to their countries as military men to do atrocities to their own homes and families. Sticking people on poles as punishment and tons of crimes and that rarely or never gets spoken about. So when comparing Romans and Ottomoans I am just adding my perspective. Both were horrible.
Self-Bitter@reddit
No it's is because the Roman Empire has a substantial influence in the modern world like no other.
The Ottoman Elpire was mighty at its peak but nothing really noteworthy in terms of contribution to humanity.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
in Antiquity and maybe early medieval age? Sure. Generally speaking in the medieval age? No.
What did the Roman Empire contribute to the Japenese? Maybe being a bit less of a drama queen helps.
The Ottoman Empire had quite the contribution to the muslim world. It change geo-politics for the west as well. Heck it started the entire new world exploration. These are massive, globally changing, historical events.
Self-Bitter@reddit
The Roman Empire is considered the most influential empire in history because it shaped the foundations of modern law, governance, language, infrastructure.
Modern Japan is a western copycat so that is. And you, me and a Japanese write in English using the Latin script
The Ottoman empire either had only local influence or negative influence as you said by forcing Europeans to start the era of exploration.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
In the western world maybe. It did arse for the most part for 95% of the world. Europe is not the entire world. And even if you want to mental gymnastic your way: the code Napleon, the french revolution are by far bigger impacts on modern countries than any roman law or influence. Whether the month July refers to a roman ruler is ultimately utterly irrelevant.
latin is a dead language.
Yes buddy the Romans are the only people on earth that built shit.
And arabic numerals buddy. So what? No one is denying the impact of the Roman Empire, but to spin this as some kind of god-gifted Empire is utter nonsense.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/example
Self-Bitter@reddit
Modern English, the code Napoleon, the French revolution, all these are products of the exisitng and influence of the Romans.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
I don’t think the french revolution was a roman related “product” brother… It’s easy to understand and is CRUCIALLY important to interpret it OBJECTIVELY. Not like a avarage Greek or Turk or Roman Even the food you and I eat is a product of ottoman. The music we listen. Language we speak(i speak greek extremely fluently as well so yeah i know). How we react. How we think…Ottoman empire plays a role in all of these bc it was recent history . With the good and the bad, we’re more similar with Ottoman empire citizens comparing to Romans. So it’s literally more important in our daily lives. It’s just a fact. I don’t support the ottoman empire or roman empire bc they’re dead and for good reasons. The topic was not to talk good about the Ottoman Empire and bad about the Roman Empire. Peace brother 🫶🏻
Self-Bitter@reddit
The French Revolution was the direct product of the Enlightenment, the thinkers of which shaped their ideas directly on the re-interpretation of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, that is basic historic knowledge and not an issue to debate, please...
Both empires sucked in terms of living conditions in comparison to today. Everyone prefers to be a poor guy in a modern country than a rich Roman or Ottoman. My comments had the meaning to explain why people find the Roman Empire so significant, but not that it was a nice place to live.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
That association which u talk about is a very indirect relation imo brother. The main topics of the age of enlightenment were liberty about the religion and individuals, governments that uphold fairness, the importance of law etc. These are universal topics which were discussed about many ethnic groups in different parts of the story so these are not necessarily GREEK or ROMAN thoughts. Αλλα σεβομαι την προσπάθειά σου να αποδειξεις πως τα πάντα προέρχονται απο την αρχαια Ελλαδα :)
And don’t go with the “dont they teach you in Turkey haha!” way pls bc i live in Greece for the past 9 years(κ ειμαι ιατρος εδω περα φιλε μου) and grew up in Turkey so im literally able to compare who reads how many books in which country and whose education system is filled with more “propaganda” etc.
Self-Bitter@reddit
Since you are a doctor (that does n;t make your points more valid this is an unnecessary information) maybe you have heard that Rome built the foundations of the systems the modern world still runs on. that is not nationalistic propaganda and don't play this card. Respond rationally with historic facts and not impressions ("imo" and such expressions). The Age of the Enlightenment of course is a successor of Western thinking, it was something new from what has been created before, but it was not born in emptiness out of nowhere.
Self-Bitter@reddit
The revolutionaries of the French Revolution consciously modeled themselves on ancient Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. hey even changed the
Rome->Renaissance->Enlightenment
You-> back to school
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
That is some nice mental gymnastics right there.
The french revolution has arse to do with the Romans. This is peak orientalism but on a global scale.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
I also don’t know how we can associate the french revolution with the roman empire. I tried to understand him but i think he’s approaching these topics from an emotional POV
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
Dude is literally the drawing on the left.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Man yeah. I didn’t wanna say that to him to not look aggressive bc i was literally tryna be objective and emotionless about the subject…
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
You seem like very educated and objective about these topics brother, go for it!
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Politically, culturally and scientifically(mostly military wise) there are a lot of contributions tho. Rome’s positive influence is observable almost only in the west europe. Greece is another story bc Roman Empire was fed with ancient greek ideology and philosophy so they shaped the core of it. When you see an roman empire alike “thing” in Greece it’s just old greek ideas traveled thru roman empire and came back to Greece again
Self-Bitter@reddit
That is why historians speak for the (ancient) Greek-Roman civilization to emphasize to both pillars of that historical force.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Yes they talk about Ancient Greek civilization as well while they’re talking about Roman empire. Correct.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
*that is why western historians speak for the (ancient) Greek-Roman civilization to emphasize to both pillars of that historical force.
Self-Bitter@reddit
Why are you spamming ? Where did I implied that Greco-Romans are the only civilization? What do the Chinese have to do with what I said. Chop-chop off you go
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
*make false and exaggerated comments.
*get a reply on TWO of them.
"Why are you spamming me?"
You made a retarded claim. I showed you with an example that it was a retarded claim.
CasperGwamm@reddit
What a load of crap.
Fuck the Ottomans.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Nobody is trying to do propaganda about Ottoman Empire here dude. If you say fuck ottomans love romans, explain why, bc that was the question if you read i wrote
CasperGwamm@reddit
This coming from a dude pushing Ottoman apologist propaganda. Is this plain old gaslighting or chronic lack of self-awareness?
Final_Sundae4254@reddit
Ottomans only destroyed. They never built anything.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
That is historically incorrect. That’s what they teach in the school books man. I think nobody told you to not believe school books since 90% is propaganda…
Final_Sundae4254@reddit
Show me something built by ottoman empire that is still visible and valuable today vs roman empire
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Depends on which country you live in, u should tell that first so i can give u a real example
FuelTheRadiance@reddit
Pretty much all the things listed on the Ottoman side as positives I see as pathetic. The only thing I like about the Ottoman Empire is the culture around Istanbul because it was a cool place and produced a nice aesthetic and some interesting people and works of art. And, of course, the early Turks like Mehmet were incredibly based. But as an actual world civilization and a state it's just awful.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
You dont have to know Ottoman history, but not knowing much about it, glossing over the most prominent Ottoman Sultan and summarizing it with a strong and one sided judgement is peak awful behaviour.
FuelTheRadiance@reddit
Why are you saying "your own people" as if my opinion is somehow subject to what other Romanians say or my being Romanian.
Anyway, Suleiman has zero aura. I find him pretty cringe. The guy was just a hyper-competent administrator. Had he taken Vienna, this would be a different story, but he failed. Plus, making an exception to marry some harem girl is insane. That's like an American president leaving his wife to amrry a pornstar. Just pathetic behavior unbecoming of a sultan.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
Your people buddy. Your ancestors. Romania. Why is Süleyman the fucking law maker in the records of your people?
Jesus Christ. I feel second hand embarassement from you. "The man known to be among the most just rulers of human history had no alpha aura." Wtf is this gen-z-slop?
FuelTheRadiance@reddit
You seem really slow. I'm asking you why him being a good administrator (or famous, if you prefer) is supposed to influence my view. We're not ranking administrators. This also isn't some conversation meant to reach a consensus based on objective metrics.
I said, quite clearly, that I find the positives listed for the Ottoman side in the OP as pathetic. This has never stopped being the center around which the conversation revolves. The Ottoman Empire is aesthetically displeasing to me and largely beneath contempt.
The only thing I'd feel embarrassed about is your coping and total failure to follow the plot.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
Jesus Christ. You dont get called a lawmaker for being a "good administrator". Was Cyrus among the "best administrator"? What is wrong with your head?
And to call me "really slow" after dropping such a nonsensical statment is really peak iceing.
FuelTheRadiance@reddit
You keep getting increasingly upset for me agreeing on your frame despite the fact that it was clear from my first post where I stand. Very Turkish behavior.
What I said makes perfect sense. I have certain aesthetic values by which I judge things, and that's what I'm doing. You keep hitting me with your Greatest Of, when the band isn't even a part of the genre I'm discussing.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
I mean, i don’t think i can count even one actual world civilization and a state which wasn’t awful with today’s standards and perspectives
FuelTheRadiance@reddit
What do you mean "today's standards and perspectives." You don't have your own standards and perspectives?
I hold Rome in the highest esteem. Even the early Ottoman Empire, before it gave up any real ambition and became a glorified protection racket, was cool and enviable. But when you go from Mehmet to Ataturk... yikes. Yeah, that's bad.
ThingCandid9553@reddit
Comparing the Ottoman Empire to the Roman Empire is like comparing a turd to a Lamborghini.
OkoMushrooom@reddit
What this guy said ⬆️
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Elaborate without being emotional pls x2
OkoMushrooom@reddit
Ok, When I go to Rome I feel happy, when I come back to post-Ottoman ruins I feel sad. Therefore the further we are away from the east, the happier everyone is.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Pls elaborate without being emotional brother
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
both shit,
Alexander's Empire is clear.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
The question is different tho ! But he literally didn’t do anything else than genociding and assimilating anatolian nations. Why would you even think about him lol
GoHardLive@reddit
Roman empire didn't try to eradicate an entire ethnic group tho
Federal_War_8272@reddit
i yhink that’s what the “-Was taken over by extremist for the last few decades of its 600 year history” meant. Besides these are all empires. We cant talk about them as if they’re people. But the leaders tho…
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Yeah why tf they talk about the Empires like it was a person, i can’t understand…
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Correct they multiple time tried to eradicate many ethnic groups. In the other hand, all the minorities which were existent in the ottoman empire were still existing when it collapsed
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
Gaul genocide never happened?
LastHomeros@reddit
Jews want to speak with you about this
Kaminazuma@reddit
Carthage begs to differ.
micma_69@reddit
"He sailed for Judea followed by TWELVE legions".
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
That is historically incorrect. That’s what they teach in the school books man. I think nobody told you to not believe school books since 90% is propaganda…
BurgurluGenc031@reddit
BRO arent we shared this EXACT meme last week?
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
BRO did YOU ? I don’t know man, i don’t check this sub very often but i regret asking a genuine question here till now…
Divisive_Ass@reddit
The Illiterate Empire. Her rags don't even know their origins.
eleutheromaniann@reddit
its funny that even a bosnian can be racist😝
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
I think you’re the most of the things which are socially wrong in the balkans
Divisive_Ass@reddit
Nah that's on you
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
“Her” ? “Rags” ? Wym dude
XxSexyPotatOxX@reddit
The points about Ottoman empire are like...50% lies and half truths. Downvote go next bro.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Can you tell me which half is truth and which half is lies? Maybe you studied history in the college and you know better than the avarage Greek or Turk
mrdimeguy@reddit
Both Empires have done good and bad things before It mostly depends on which one you know more about and which one you share more of an identity with. I would say they were both net-positives overall but do not forget about the horrible atrocities done by them either
No-Championship-4632@reddit
The Romans left aqueducts, roads and amphetheatres.
The Ottomans left crappy mosques and kirpich buildings.
Consistent-Boss-7670@reddit
Aztec Empire 🇲🇽
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Those guys were fire till… they were colonized and almost wiped out entirely…
Consistent-Boss-7670@reddit
En realidad no, los mexicanos somos mexicas
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Yeah i said “almost” wiped out! I’m glad it’s not entirely since it’s a distinctive and interesting culture, like any other culture . I wish that Europeans hadn’t destroy a huge part of their historical records and culture
Nutriaphaganax@reddit
El actual México estaba conformado por muchísimas etnias diferentes, los mexicas solo son los que la maquinaria propagandística mexicana ha glorificado
Arkhendelos@reddit
I see that you've learnt your Turkish historical propaganda well
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
I didn’t make the meme man i just wanted to ask here to learn some thoughts. And i hate any kind of nationalist propaganda so i don’t live in Turkey 🫶🏻
taloschat@reddit
Even ottomans knew they were just cheap copy of original roman empire. im turkish but thats true.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
They were politically culturally etc. were very different tho. I don’t know how i can call one “a copy” of the other in any sense
Double_Today_289@reddit
Imperialist apologia sucks ass, but yes, I would prefer to be an Ottoman slave than a Roman slave from a purely material POV.
Also, the two empires essentially had opposite trajectories: the Romans began as ultranationalist expansionists and turned into cosmopolitan tradesmen and merchants while the Ottomans started out as a multiethnic (by necessity) realm and turned into a genocidal dictatorship at the end.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Yeah i agree with the slave conditions tbh… unfortunately… In the end term of the ottoman they were somehow trying to stabilize the empire with the most wrong ways. The ottoman empire made many wrong moves then. They became the puppet of the Great Britain man. The ottoman royal family is still living the UK for example . They hated the ppl of their own lands… Turkish ppl included…
DavidGrandKomnenos@reddit
I think you left off the whole 'we stole babies to assimilate them'
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
The devshirme ended in the 1640th and how mass-enslavement by the Romans of entire nations is in any form or shape better is beyond me.
Mind you the average age of people from the devshirme in the 1600s was at +16. Idk how you count the age over in the Uk, but our babies are not born 16 year olds.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Hearing this from a UK person is very hopeful. Considering the fact that UK assimilated and wiped out thousands of ethnic group mercilessly all over the world till recent date :)
And who is “we”? I was born in Turkey which was literally founded against Ottoman Empire so i don’t think it’s a “we” situation. “Devşirme” children had significantly better life standards comparing to Greek Turkish Slavic Persian etc minorities and bc of that i’m not sure if it was PRACTICALLY bad for those children. They were educated and trained to become high class government officials and soldiers
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
A single word is your answer: Orientalism.
eleutheromaniann@reddit
this has been discussed before.even last week.delete this.
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
I ask genuine thoughts. You don’t “have” to answer if u don’t feel like it ❤️
SnooLentils726@reddit
It was posted before enough with this stupid comparisons
ulasxd@reddit (OP)
Sorry for talking about the 2 most historically important empires who held power over the balkans on a balkan subreddit.
Signal_Intention6774@reddit
Full Citizenship had a very different meaning to the Romans then it does in Modern times and even other Italics didnt get it till the Socii wars. Nuanced is required when studying histoey and your talking about two empires Millenia apart. And talking about destroying civilizations but so did the Ottomans so IDK why you brough up that point. Slaver? Tell me how most of Istanbuls Ottoman monuments were built again? Fun Fact the writer of Don Quixote was a slave who worked in Istanbul for a bit. Only reason he was freed was a relgious sect that paid for his freedom. He is buried there now.