Are modern rifles and camo losing their identity, or just getting better?
Posted by ohraineri@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 89 comments
Saw this comparison and it got me thinking.
Before: tons of unique rifle designs and distinct camo per country.
Now: mostly AR-style rifles and multicam-type patterns everywhere.
Is this just better standardization… or did we lose some identity?
JeanPascalCS@reddit
Yes, to use collectors and enthusiasts its boring, but the people outfitting a military aren't looking for style, "soul", or any other nostalgic stuff: they just want stuff that works as well as possible.
R3d_P3nguin@reddit
Evolutionarily, everything becomes a crab eventually...
jgmu17@reddit
I've been saying this. We need a term like carcinization but for weapons modernizing into a stoner design
sxrrycard@reddit
Stonerization
NinjaBuddha13@reddit
Lithification. It's all stone eventually.
Txankete51@reddit
Man, that is flagrant false advertising!
FilHor2001@reddit
Is that a new Red Hot Chili Peppers song?
Full-Metal-Jack-off@reddit
No, this song would be good.
OleRockTheGoodAg@reddit
I thought that was a nickname for the 1960s to the 70s
PrimeusOrion@reddit
I just use encrabification since it gets the meme across well.
MisterDings@reddit
How is it not called crustzation
Imissyourgirlfriend2@reddit
Sounds like my wife
saladmunch2@reddit
My old girlfriend insisted everything CAME FROM crab, not goes to crab. No matter what I showed her, she would just insist I was trying to fight...
SomeCar@reddit
Does your girlfriend have a sister?
saladmunch2@reddit
2 actually.
ours@reddit
CARcinization
cuppanoodles@reddit
416/Multicam carcinization
TJM18@reddit
NinjaBuddha13@reddit
In nature, this is known as convergent evolution.
Kokabim@reddit
Both
shickashaw@reddit
With the AR style, there are 3 main factors:
1) The US government has slowly implemented tons of minor upgrades to make it reliable in nearly any environment that are now basically common domain and cost next to nothing in engineering and R&D for a new gun.
2) Familiarity costs money too. If the US changes from an AR style rifle, they not only need to swallow the cost of the new gun, but also the additional training time and ammunition to teach everyone to be equally efficient on the new system.
3) Interchangeable parts with existing inventory saves money on repairs, and logistics.
4) With the US being the main NATO country, and hosting training smaller countries are incentivised to adopt a similar platform to simplify joint trainings and operations.
As for multicam: The primary muticam pattern used by the Army hits that "good enough" for so many environments. It's also really good at camouflage year round in most of the western US (grassland, high desert, mountains, brushlands, sparse woods, etc). There are better specialized options for specific environments though, and we do see those color adaptations. The reason you see multicam patterns more is because it's cheaper/easier to manufacture than the digital camo patterns and the smaller multicam patterns have proven more effective than the older lager splotch camouflage patterns.
TacosNGuns@reddit
As a meme there’s truth here. But there are still many countries (Cz Slovenia Finland S. Korea Israel S Africa Philippines Singapore Belgium Switzerland India, Pakistan and a couple dozen more) that manufacture their own .mil small arms primarily for their own military.
JamCom@reddit
Give it a moment. Guns just need something new like drones to mix up the soup again.
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
Even that has reverted back to AR. Highly successful anti drone rounds fired from AR platform. It's easier cheaper and lighter from logistics and soldier application to just have grunts carry a few magazines of a different ammo than an entirely different weapon system
SgtJayM@reddit
I think the shotgun is still king of anti-drone personnel/squad defense. Many teams will already have one for breaching
Inevitable-Sleep-907@reddit
I think the real world use reports coming out of Ukraine currently contradict your opinion
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
MisterDings@reddit
Kids in 20 years — Remember when we needed a forklift to carry drone jamming devices? Now you can just have an attachment to your key fob.
DannyDanumba@reddit
Key Fob Not Detected #BOOM
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
The AR is just a highly effective, easy to produce, modular weapons system. It's just peak design for now. Especially with NATO where you want cross compatibility so in joint operations a Belgian soldier, a British soldier an American soldier and a Spanish soldier can all use the same equipment.
Now sure not every NATO country uses the AR but there's a reason so many do.
As for camo it's science not fashion. A lot of research went into the most effective camo patterns and the conclusions is what got produced
SgtJayM@reddit
It’s almost as if in a live or die crucible of conflict, a victor has emerged. Hard to believe.
likemy10thaccount@reddit
I'm no expert, but my guess is that there's only so many arms manufacturers, and the AR platform is still the "easiest" model (mod ability, weight, ease of use, availability of parts) until a new style gets invented and adopted.
I think the digital style camo is just effective. I think that's us discovering more about how we perceive shadow, outline, shading, movement, etc.
1610925286@reddit
I wouldn't say easiest, it's simply the best semi auto rifle caliber system we can make. Having the buffer tube is the defining feature and it seems to simply be better in every sense. Durability, adjustability, reliability and even manufacturing cost. There seems to be only additional problems if you cram in springs off axis like all the competitors did before. I don't know if a single non buffer tube gun that's better.
youy23@reddit
I mean the 5.56 SIG Spear has won a decent few military contracts with SOF around the world and I would say it’s at least par with the other options out there.
1610925286@reddit
We will see if they actually stick with it. They tend to adopt everything at least once.
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
I agree about camouflage as well. I’ve read that some police special forces are moving away from wearing black in urban combat because it makes their silhouette stand out more, whereas a kind of grayish digital camouflage doesn’t have that issue.
Whoevenareyou1738@reddit
All the guns are metagaming.
deadman-69@reddit
Looks like the USMC and our MARPAT win again. I'm so glad we didn't let the Army have it.
rufusz1991@reddit
Depends on which way. Compantability? Yes to getting better. Identity? Definitely loosing it.
EasyMode556@reddit
It seems like the AR platform an multicam style camo have just proven themselves more effective than the alternatives.
There’s been a lot of hot conflict over the last 20+ years that we didn’t see in the 20 years prior to that (certainly not to this scale) so we’ve seen things move from theory to practice with a lot of lessons learned along the way
twarrr@reddit
Independent camouflage is intended to be a source of pride and moral for the US military, which is a large part in why the Navy and Marines stick to digital for their working uniforms.
There's no denying that multicam is good enough for most environments, but its also getting produced to the tits at a decent enough quality, making it practical. There's tons of commercial hunting camouflage patterns I'd choose over multicam in a heart beat, but they're expensive and don't have a family of matching pattern gear.
retromullet@reddit
My Sitka stuff, in its proper environment, is pretty incredible. I used to use a ghillie and I don’t need to anymore.
Josefius@reddit
I hate new cammo, even the Navy wears it.
Different-Set4505@reddit
That’s the way fast food has become, seem Wendy’s and McDonald’s ?
AppalachianViking@reddit
The entire world eventually adopts whatever the US adopts.
JustSomeGuyMedia@reddit
I think you’re overlooking/forgetting stuff like the Grot and similar AR-18 derived rifles.
However: AR-15 ergonomics are just good. Stocks in line with recoil are good. Folding stocks are nice but collapsible is good enough. Flattop uppers to mount ANY optic are good. It’s just convergent evolution and standardization.
I don’t really know enough about camo to speak on it.
minecraftrubyblock@reddit
Beryl
Nice_Strike5198@reddit
I like the old camo style better and I've always been a fan of the M16/CAR15 design, I do not care for the more modern variations of it. I think it looks better the original setup with the carry handle.
MyLittleDiscolite@reddit
You know these things are designed to conceal/disrupt human form and kill humans, yes?
Like they aren’t meant to be fashion statements
cmd821@reddit
Another truther
Tall-Agency-1452@reddit
My brother in christ, all of this stuff has the purpose to kill without getting killed in the most efficient way possible… who gives a shit how it looks if it does the job right
cmd821@reddit
This person speaks truth
It isn’t about cosplay. It’s about efficiency.
Lazy_Composer_1884@reddit
Austria seems to be holding on the aug thats good i guess
le-churchx@reddit
I mean, multicam is a good bet for a standard for all environment.
Is it ideal in every scenario? No. Is it cost effective from a financial point of view? Yes.
However you do see variations there, US has OCP, britain has MTP, FR has BME, DE has whatever the variation of flecktarn is called, britain has, well they just bought mutlicam.
But yeah, i get it.
diprivanity@reddit
Getting better. The AR15 simply won rifle design, it just took a while for everyone to notice. There were murmurs though. Units in European militaries that had the option to not use bullpups didn't and instead had, drumroll, M16s, C8s, you name it, AR family.
If Vietnam was the war that made the M16, GWOT was the war that made the M4. The confluence of a massive stress test of the M4s capabilities and the sunset of the assault weapons ban led to an explosion of development of the AR ecosystem. In parallel the 416 development driven by delta fine tuned what is now the juggernaut platform being adopted left and right. It's hard to overstate the influence this has had: the best shooters in the world, period, with an unlimited budget, at war shooting people literally daily for two decades, sending continual feedback on their equipments performance. There hasn't been a rifle continually developed with that kind of intense ongoing evaluation probably ever.
nato countries ditching shitty bullpups are the beneficiaries of this end result refined rifle. The Europeans also want things cheaper, simpler, and not made in their countries, because they shut down all their arms factories. Thank God HK still exists.
Dontgankme55@reddit
It’s just the natural development of firearms. The AR has been the most versatile and easy to train/use/manufacture since it became modular in the early 2000s. Prior to then each country had its own arms factory (Cold War era) and firearms design and theory. They were built to coalesce with military tradition and thought. Nowadays, with military spending so much lower than the 80s, and countries unwilling to spend over the last 30 years, most independent arms manufacturers have either closed, or been forced to reduce R&D leading to an acceptance of the AR platform.
Rincevent5@reddit
For the rifle it’s (partly) NATO standardisation. Also, we can’t move past the AR because of exactly 1 country who hasn’t developed any new platform since the 60’s, even after a certain new program. Also, I guess retraining troops is hard. Also, ngl, the AR is a really good platform for many things, maybe the best in the world currently (fuck you AK, I said it).
diprivanity@reddit
Please be satire
East_Bug7312@reddit
gunsforevery1@reddit
It’s funny that AR rifles were being shit on during GWOT and its design ended up being the best of everything out there.
Liquidmentality@reddit
60 years of refinement has led to many conclusions.
Bulky rifles and bullpups suck in combat.
Free floating handgaurds improve accuracy.
Universal rail systems for mounting things is useful.
This led to everything looking pretty similar since it's the most efficient design. Now it's a battle in how to get the max gains from cartridges.
Quizzii@reddit
As a french we were pretty happy with the famas exept for mounting things on it but it was only replaced with hk because germans are "our friends"...
_MusicJunkie@reddit
Also the AUG continues to be popular, and I'm not only saying that because I'm Austrian.
Quw10@reddit
AUG is life and I say this as someone who was an AK fanboy growing up. Started to get into ARs more once 7.62x39 prices went up but once I got my AUG both have started to collect dust. Of course a big part of it is I can run a single point with it in 2 gun and it be at just the right spot where the barrel/handguard won't bag me.
awsompossum@reddit
Bubble car moment
ddosn@reddit
Main problem is that since the end of the cold war, most nations dont have the military investment needed to develop their own 'thing' (rifle, camo pattern etc).
Which is why many NATO nations just....copied the US.
easier, quicker and, most importantly, cheaper.
Why bother spending billions on a new and unique weapon and camo pattern when you can just buy ready-made stuff from the US?
Think of it like food shopping. Many people these days cant be arse to make a home cooked meal, so they buy the pre-packaged stuff from the supermarket.
Proper-Entertainer13@reddit
Yeah everything now is multishizzz camo. And painted combat peanutbutter. Meanwhile I'm still overhere rocking m81 woodland. And occasionally tigerstripe.
MetalDogmatic@reddit
Sorry that one of them won
Redtacoman@reddit
Company announces new rifle like it’s a huge deal, it’s the same m4 as everyone els….. no difference
Joseph9877@reddit
Eventually, the cheapest, easiest to teach ergonomically, reliable, and modifiable gun will always win out. Look at the Mauser, lee Enfield, and nagant rifles, everyone had one.
And camo is more down to price, why design your own camo, develop the fabric, design the cut of uniform, and then produce enough for surplus, when you can just slightly rejig multicam?
bigchillin2025@reddit
Efficiency wins overtime 🤷🏻♂️
Technically_Tactical@reddit
Machine learning and AI at work...
You're not imagining it.
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
?
Technically_Tactical@reddit
It's why every car on the road looks the same. Why all your movies and shows have the same structure. Why a Bloomberg segment on Jack Vogel plays like 4 TikToks strung together.
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I get that, and I’ll admit it might even sound like a silly observation. But is there any reason why weapons used to have a certain identity and now don’t anymore?
sovietbearcav@reddit
At least in nato, nato standard ammo and magazines make easy logistics between allies. As far as weapons, well, if theyre all 5.56 and feed from stanags, might as well use the lightest, most modular, most ergonomic, and lightest recoiling 5.56 that uses stanags...it just so happens that the ar15 is all of those things. Further simplified by huge proliferation, parts availability, common practices for services, and 70 years and countless fortunes spend on developments and updates, ar15 makes huge sense for nato nations.
Its what the soviet bloc intended to do before they realized that the ussr is was a silly government with silly government things happening so they couldnt actually get every bloc nation to build the exact same gun, so parts didnt interchange.
Now there are some outliers like the hk416 being in use, but there really are only two patterns of ar15 in wide circulation: hk416 and milspec..and after a quick google search the brits went with knights so that bullshit bcg system (with whatever rail and muzzle device). That really does keep spare parts issues to a minimum (you can drop a us m4a1 bolt into a canadian c8 or a us m27 bolt into a german g95 or whatever the french call their gun.)
Now keep in mind that there are a few nations that still use home grown system (l85a3 for the brits and aug for the anzac).
But by and large, all of nato agreeing on a single type of service rifle with the same ammo and mags makes great logistic sense.
Now onto camo, multicam was developed to work "good nuff" in most places. As a nation that fields an army that may need to operate abroad, it makes sense to have a camo pattern that works "good nuff" in most places. You can issue things like overwhites or jungle cammies if necessary, but in the effort to cut costs, issues one camo pattern to rule them all to all of your troops just makes good logistical sense. Otherwise, youd need to issue troops 6 sets of cammies, pcs, pouches, bags, rucks, etc etc etc. why do that when you can issue 1 set of "good nuff"?
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
To be honest, what you said makes perfect sense. Practicality should come first, and Russia already does this with the AK platform as well.
sovietbearcav@reddit
You say that, but go on thenak sub reddit and tell them you have parts from a bulgi, hungarian, romanian, and yugi ak and are trying to put them together and watch the collective brain smoke
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
Hahaha, I really didn’t know that
sovietbearcav@reddit
Oh yeah, nothing is to bloc standard, each bloc country tolerances and standards were slightly different. Then theres czech...they didnt even follow the same pattern.
Hell take the t34 for example. You couldnt exchange parts even on tanks from the same factory since they were schmecalka'd together with good ole comrade ingenuity.
Technically_Tactical@reddit
It's the same reason why there's Italian Gelato in Mexico. Amorino in Cancun, to be precise (I've been there.)
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it.
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
Although I agree about the clothing, since it has gone through technological advancements in camouflage
ohraineri@reddit (OP)
I’ve genuinely thought a lot about this, especially after seeing modern combat, like the war in Ukraine
bbawdhellyeah@reddit
PSA disagrees
Purplegreenandred@reddit
Do you want an "identity" or do you want to know how to field strip the rifle your forced to use cuz your countries shit is pushed in and the US send in crates of guns
47_aimbots@reddit
I mean the same sort of thing happened when the 1894/1898 Mauser rifles came out
GreenJavelin@reddit
modern war is coalition and proving that supply chain is a massive constraint
OverlordDontHurtMe@reddit
The one rifle to rule them all.